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Re: [borderpoint] GERMAN-DUTCH BORDER

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  • Harry ten Veen
    Hi David The DE-NL border in de (Dutch) north-east in the Eems estuary is in dispute. The Germans draw the line very near de Dutch shore. The Dutch choose the
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 1, 2010
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      Hi David
       
      The DE-NL border in de (Dutch) north-east in the Eems estuary is in dispute.
      The Germans draw the line very near de Dutch shore. The Dutch choose the thalweg.
       
      Nieuweschans (border marker 196) is the Easternmost point of NL. The border is drawn around the former fortification.
      Same situation around Bourtange, somewhat to the south.
      Generally when the border is jagged, it has to do with older property. Maybe even a no longer existing shed or so.
       
      and look for grenspaal 166-2 to 166-5
       
      Another example here (Hahnentange):
      here is grenspaal 171 to 171-5
       
      Groeten en suc6
      Harry ten Veen
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 2:41 AM
      Subject: RE: [borderpoint] GERMAN-DUTCH BORDER

      Eg, why is the border so "jagged," eg round grenspaals 571-578?



      To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
      From: gingenby@hotmail. com
      Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 01:26:18 +0000
      Subject: [borderpoint] GERMAN-DUTCH BORDER

       
      Hi
       
      I've noticed that the DE-NL border in the north-west part runs to the eastern side of water ways, rather than right through it, as well as having a swan-neck round Nieuewschans.  This seems unusual.  Is there a history to the border demarcation?  I find it stange that NL stops a few metres after the river rather than being down the centre.
       
      Looking forward to an answer.  I'm sure someone will know. :)
       
      Kind regards,
      David
    • Peter Smaardijk
      I think David has the Westerwoldsche Aa in mind, which is a waterway that was completely realigned (i.e. redug) by the Dutch, since it only has a purpose as a
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 1, 2010
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        I think David has the Westerwoldsche Aa in mind, which is a waterway that was completely realigned (i.e. redug) by the Dutch, since it only has a purpose as a water drain and as a means of transportation for the Netherlands (although I don't think the latter function has much importance nowadays). The border along that stretch of water does run on its eastern side. Nieuwe Statenzijl, at its mouth, is a sluice/lock built and maintained by the Netherlands.
         
        The Eems border is indeed a completely different ball game, with the border running at the low water mark on the Dutch side according to the Germans, and following the thalweg according to the Dutch.
         
        Peter

        --- On Mon, 2/1/10, Harry ten Veen <h.ten.veen@...> wrote:

        From: Harry ten Veen <h.ten.veen@...>
        Subject: Re: [borderpoint] GERMAN-DUTCH BORDER
        To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 8:43 PM

         
        Hi David
         
        The DE-NL border in de (Dutch) north-east in the Eems estuary is in dispute.
        The Germans draw the line very near de Dutch shore. The Dutch choose the thalweg.
         
        Nieuweschans (border marker 196) is the Easternmost point of NL. The border is drawn around the former fortification.
        Same situation around Bourtange, somewhat to the south.
        Generally when the border is jagged, it has to do with older property. Maybe even a no longer existing shed or so.
         
        and look for grenspaal 166-2 to 166-5
         
        Another example here (Hahnentange) :
        here is grenspaal 171 to 171-5
         
        Groeten en suc6
        Harry ten Veen
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 2:41 AM
        Subject: RE: [borderpoint] GERMAN-DUTCH BORDER
        Eg, why is the border so "jagged," eg round grenspaals 571-578?



        To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
        From: gingenby@hotmail. com
        Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 01:26:18 +0000
        Subject: [borderpoint] GERMAN-DUTCH BORDER

         
        Hi
         
        I've noticed that the DE-NL border in the north-west part runs to the eastern side of water ways, rather than right through it, as well as having a swan-neck round Nieuewschans.  This seems unusual.  Is there a history to the border demarcation?  I find it stange that NL stops a few metres after the river rather than being down the centre.
         
        Looking forward to an answer.  I'm sure someone will know. :)
         
        Kind regards,
        David

      • David Gatenby
        Very many thanks. Very interesting how borders develop. Interesting to look on Google Earth and see how rows of trees seem to mark the border in sdome areas.
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 1, 2010
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          Very many thanks.  Very interesting how borders develop.  Interesting to look on Google Earth and see how rows of trees seem to mark the border in sdome areas.




           



          To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
          From: smaardijk@...
          Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 12:14:33 -0800
          Subject: Re: [borderpoint] GERMAN-DUTCH BORDER

           
          I think David has the Westerwoldsche Aa in mind, which is a waterway that was completely realigned (i.e. redug) by the Dutch, since it only has a purpose as a water drain and as a means of transportation for the Netherlands (although I don't think the latter function has much importance nowadays). The border along that stretch of water does run on its eastern side. Nieuwe Statenzijl, at its mouth, is a sluice/lock built and maintained by the Netherlands.
           
          The Eems border is indeed a completely different ball game, with the border running at the low water mark on the Dutch side according to the Germans, and following the thalweg according to the Dutch.
           
          Peter

          --- On Mon, 2/1/10, Harry ten Veen <h.ten.veen@planet. nl> wrote:

          From: Harry ten Veen <h.ten.veen@planet. nl>
          Subject: Re: [borderpoint] GERMAN-DUTCH BORDER
          To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
          Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 8:43 PM

           
          Hi David
           
          The DE-NL border in de (Dutch) north-east in the Eems estuary is in dispute.
          The Germans draw the line very near de Dutch shore. The Dutch choose the thalweg.
           
          Nieuweschans (border marker 196) is the Easternmost point of NL. The border is drawn around the former fortification.
          Same situation around Bourtange, somewhat to the south.
          Generally when the border is jagged, it has to do with older property. Maybe even a no longer existing shed or so.
           
          and look for grenspaal 166-2 to 166-5
           
          Another example here (Hahnentange) :
          here is grenspaal 171 to 171-5
           
          Groeten en suc6
          Harry ten Veen
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 2:41 AM
          Subject: RE: [borderpoint] GERMAN-DUTCH BORDER
          Eg, why is the border so "jagged," eg round grenspaals 571-578?



          To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
          From: gingenby@hotmail. com
          Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 01:26:18 +0000
          Subject: [borderpoint] GERMAN-DUTCH BORDER

           
          Hi
           
          I've noticed that the DE-NL border in the north-west part runs to the eastern side of water ways, rather than right through it, as well as having a swan-neck round Nieuewschans.  This seems unusual.  Is there a history to the border demarcation?  I find it stange that NL stops a few metres after the river rather than being down the centre.
           
          Looking forward to an answer.  I'm sure someone will know. :)
           
          Kind regards,
          David




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        • David Gatenby
          So the border wraps tight round a house? What s the story here? What does Verderop is de curieuze reeks 166t2-166t5. In de lange kaarsrechte grenslijn tussen
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 1, 2010
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            So the border wraps tight round a house?  What's the story here?
             
            What does
             
            "Verderop is de curieuze reeks 166t2-166t5. In de lange kaarsrechte grenslijn tussen gp165 en 168 is hier een rechthoekige uitstulping van Duitsland in Nederland. Onbekend is waarom. We treffen op het erf een aardige Duitse vrouw die vertelt dat de woning in 1938 gebouwd is voor de douane. Ze gebruikten het o.a. als uitkijkpost voor smokkelpraktijken. Het is nu 20 jaar in particuliere handen. Het gebouw is van een type die ik vaker gezien heb langs de grens. Meest opvallend: de woonvertrekken zijn ± 1,5 meter boven de grond, boven een soort kelderruimte. Alsof ze hier overstromingen verwachten. De vrouw wist overigens ook niet waarom de grens hier anders verloopt. We fotograferen op de hoeken van deze uitstulping"
             
            mean?
             
            I only German, Russian, Serbian and Croatian...
             


            To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
            From: h.ten.veen@...
            Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 20:43:28 +0100
            Subject: Re: [borderpoint] GERMAN-DUTCH BORDER

             
            Hi David
             
            The DE-NL border in de (Dutch) north-east in the Eems estuary is in dispute.
            The Germans draw the line very near de Dutch shore. The Dutch choose the thalweg.
             
            Nieuweschans (border marker 196) is the Easternmost point of NL. The border is drawn around the former fortification.
            Same situation around Bourtange, somewhat to the south.
            Generally when the border is jagged, it has to do with older property. Maybe even a no longer existing shed or so.
             
            and look for grenspaal 166-2 to 166-5
             
            Another example here (Hahnentange) :
            here is grenspaal 171 to 171-5
             
            Groeten en suc6
            Harry ten Veen
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 2:41 AM
            Subject: RE: [borderpoint] GERMAN-DUTCH BORDER

            Eg, why is the border so "jagged," eg round grenspaals 571-578?



            To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
            From: gingenby@hotmail. com
            Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 01:26:18 +0000
            Subject: [borderpoint] GERMAN-DUTCH BORDER

             
            Hi
             
            I've noticed that the DE-NL border in the north-west part runs to the eastern side of water ways, rather than right through it, as well as having a swan-neck round Nieuewschans.  This seems unusual.  Is there a history to the border demarcation?  I find it stange that NL stops a few metres after the river rather than being down the centre.
             
            Looking forward to an answer.  I'm sure someone will know. :)
             
            Kind regards,
            David




            Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.
          • Peter Smaardijk
            Eto ya mogu po-russki, oder auf Deutsch, but maybe English is more useful here :)   Next, there is the strange range 166t2-166t5 [t = tussenpaal =
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 1, 2010
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              Eto ya mogu po-russki, oder auf Deutsch, but maybe English is more useful here :)
               
              "Next, there is the strange range 166t2-166t5 [t = tussenpaal = intermediate border marker]. In the long, perfectly straight border line in between border marker 165 and 168, there is a rectangular intrusion of Germany into the Netherlands. It is not known why this is so. In the yard, we encounter a friendly German woman who tells us the house was built in 1938 for the customs service. They used it a.o. as a lookout for smugglers' activities. It is privately owned now for 20 years. The building is of a type I have encountered fairly often along the border. The most peculiar feature is that the living quarters are all about 1.5 metres above the ground, on top of some sort of basement. Like they expect flooding here. The women didn't know either why the border is running differently here. We are taking pictures on the corners of this intrusion..."
               
              Peter
               
               

              --- On Mon, 2/1/10, David Gatenby <gingenby@...> wrote:

              From: David Gatenby <gingenby@...>
              Subject: RE: [borderpoint] GERMAN-DUTCH BORDER
              To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 11:35 PM

               
              So the border wraps tight round a house?  What's the story here?
               
              What does
               
              "Verderop is de curieuze reeks 166t2-166t5. In de lange kaarsrechte grenslijn tussen gp165 en 168 is hier een rechthoekige uitstulping van Duitsland in Nederland. Onbekend is waarom. We treffen op het erf een aardige Duitse vrouw die vertelt dat de woning in 1938 gebouwd is voor de douane. Ze gebruikten het o.a. als uitkijkpost voor smokkelpraktijken. Het is nu 20 jaar in particuliere handen. Het gebouw is van een type die ik vaker gezien heb langs de grens. Meest opvallend: de woonvertrekken zijn ± 1,5 meter boven de grond, boven een soort kelderruimte. Alsof ze hier overstromingen verwachten. De vrouw wist overigens ook niet waarom de grens hier anders verloopt. We fotograferen op de hoeken van deze uitstulping"
               
              mean?
               
              I only German, Russian, Serbian and Croatian...
               


              To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
              From: h.ten.veen@planet. nl
              Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 20:43:28 +0100
              Subject: Re: [borderpoint] GERMAN-DUTCH BORDER

               
              Hi David
               
              The DE-NL border in de (Dutch) north-east in the Eems estuary is in dispute.
              The Germans draw the line very near de Dutch shore. The Dutch choose the thalweg.
               
              Nieuweschans (border marker 196) is the Easternmost point of NL. The border is drawn around the former fortification.
              Same situation around Bourtange, somewhat to the south.
              Generally when the border is jagged, it has to do with older property. Maybe even a no longer existing shed or so.
               
              and look for grenspaal 166-2 to 166-5
               
              Another example here (Hahnentange) :
              here is grenspaal 171 to 171-5
               
              Groeten en suc6
              Harry ten Veen
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 2:41 AM
              Subject: RE: [borderpoint] GERMAN-DUTCH BORDER
              Eg, why is the border so "jagged," eg round grenspaals 571-578?



              To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
              From: gingenby@hotmail. com
              Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 01:26:18 +0000
              Subject: [borderpoint] GERMAN-DUTCH BORDER

               
              Hi
               
              I've noticed that the DE-NL border in the north-west part runs to the eastern side of water ways, rather than right through it, as well as having a swan-neck round Nieuewschans.  This seems unusual.  Is there a history to the border demarcation?  I find it stange that NL stops a few metres after the river rather than being down the centre.
               
              Looking forward to an answer.  I'm sure someone will know. :)
               
              Kind regards,
              David



              Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

            • David Gatenby
              Nu, davaite pogovorim po-russki, bratan! Govorim samo malo sprskohrvatski. Na zalost dugo nisam govorio jezik. :( Herzlichen Dank fuer die Grenzeninfos. Ta
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 1, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Nu, davaite pogovorim po-russki, bratan!
                 
                Govorim samo malo sprskohrvatski.  Na zalost dugo nisam govorio jezik. :(
                 
                Herzlichen Dank fuer die Grenzeninfos.
                 
                Ta f't'translation, as they say in Yorkshire!





                 

                To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                From: smaardijk@...
                Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 14:52:41 -0800
                Subject: RE: [borderpoint] GERMAN-DUTCH BORDER

                 
                Eto ya mogu po-russki, oder auf Deutsch, but maybe English is more useful here :)
                 
                "Next, there is the strange range 166t2-166t5 [t = tussenpaal = intermediate border marker]. In the long, perfectly straight border line in between border marker 165 and 168, there is a rectangular intrusion of Germany into the Netherlands. It is not known why this is so. In the yard, we encounter a friendly German woman who tells us the house was built in 1938 for the customs service. They used it a.o. as a lookout for smugglers' activities. It is privately owned now for 20 years. The building is of a type I have encountered fairly often along the border. The most peculiar feature is that the living quarters are all about 1.5 metres above the ground, on top of some sort of basement. Like they expect flooding here. The women didn't know either why the border is running differently here. We are taking pictures on the corners of this intrusion... "
                 
                Peter
                 
                 

                --- On Mon, 2/1/10, David Gatenby <gingenby@hotmail. com> wrote:

                From: David Gatenby <gingenby@hotmail. com>
                Subject: RE: [borderpoint] GERMAN-DUTCH BORDER
                To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 11:35 PM

                 
                So the border wraps tight round a house?  What's the story here?
                 
                What does
                 
                "Verderop is de curieuze reeks 166t2-166t5. In de lange kaarsrechte grenslijn tussen gp165 en 168 is hier een rechthoekige uitstulping van Duitsland in Nederland. Onbekend is waarom. We treffen op het erf een aardige Duitse vrouw die vertelt dat de woning in 1938 gebouwd is voor de douane. Ze gebruikten het o.a. als uitkijkpost voor smokkelpraktijken. Het is nu 20 jaar in particuliere handen. Het gebouw is van een type die ik vaker gezien heb langs de grens. Meest opvallend: de woonvertrekken zijn ± 1,5 meter boven de grond, boven een soort kelderruimte. Alsof ze hier overstromingen verwachten. De vrouw wist overigens ook niet waarom de grens hier anders verloopt. We fotograferen op de hoeken van deze uitstulping"
                 
                mean?
                 
                I only German, Russian, Serbian and Croatian...
                 


                To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                From: h.ten.veen@planet. nl
                Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 20:43:28 +0100
                Subject: Re: [borderpoint] GERMAN-DUTCH BORDER

                 
                Hi David
                 
                The DE-NL border in de (Dutch) north-east in the Eems estuary is in dispute.
                The Germans draw the line very near de Dutch shore. The Dutch choose the thalweg.
                 
                Nieuweschans (border marker 196) is the Easternmost point of NL. The border is drawn around the former fortification.
                Same situation around Bourtange, somewhat to the south.
                Generally when the border is jagged, it has to do with older property. Maybe even a no longer existing shed or so.
                 
                and look for grenspaal 166-2 to 166-5
                 
                Another example here (Hahnentange) :
                here is grenspaal 171 to 171-5
                 
                Groeten en suc6
                Harry ten Veen
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 2:41 AM
                Subject: RE: [borderpoint] GERMAN-DUTCH BORDER
                Eg, why is the border so "jagged," eg round grenspaals 571-578?



                To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                From: gingenby@hotmail. com
                Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 01:26:18 +0000
                Subject: [borderpoint] GERMAN-DUTCH BORDER

                 
                Hi
                 
                I've noticed that the DE-NL border in the north-west part runs to the eastern side of water ways, rather than right through it, as well as having a swan-neck round Nieuewschans.  This seems unusual.  Is there a history to the border demarcation?  I find it stange that NL stops a few metres after the river rather than being down the centre.
                 
                Looking forward to an answer.  I'm sure someone will know. :)
                 
                Kind regards,
                David



                Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.




                Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.
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