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Re: [borderpoint] Historic enclaves and exclaves

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  • Maxim Kozlov
    ... From: kubana2005 To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 3:46 AM Subject: [borderpoint] Historic enclaves and exclaves Hi, I am
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 9, 2009
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 3:46 AM
      Subject: [borderpoint] Historic enclaves and exclaves
      Hi, I am interested in enclaves/exclaves that have existed after 1900, but are now extinct.
      I have found 18 and please correct me if I am wrong, or add something:
      -East Pakistan (1955-1971)
      since Pakistan's independence (1947)
      -Walvis Bay (till 1964)
      till Feb 1994

      Regards, Alex
       
      You can add:
      - Pagiriai (Lithuania in Belarus, till 26.04.1996)
      - multiple enclaves in Pondichery (France in India and India in France)
      - Benevento (Papal enclave in the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies)
      and many enclaves within the German states
    • kubana2005
      Hi Maxim, Thanks for corrections, I forgot those... any more corrections are welcome Regards, Alex
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 13, 2009
        Hi Maxim,
        Thanks for corrections, I forgot those...
        any more corrections are welcome

        Regards, Alex
        --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Maxim Kozlov" <Maximkov@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: kubana2005
        > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 3:46 AM
        > Subject: [borderpoint] Historic enclaves and exclaves
        > Hi, I am interested in enclaves/exclaves that have existed after 1900, but are now extinct.
        > I have found 18 and please correct me if I am wrong, or add something:
        > -East Pakistan (1955-1971)
        > since Pakistan's independence (1947)
        > -Walvis Bay (till 1964)
        > till Feb 1994
        >
        > Regards, Alex
        >
        > You can add:
        > - Pagiriai (Lithuania in Belarus, till 26.04.1996)
        > - multiple enclaves in Pondichery (France in India and India in France)
        > - Benevento (Papal enclave in the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies)
        > and many enclaves within the German states
        >
      • beeblebrox3003
        ... Videos of the former Bottcherberg Exclaves in Berlin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flH3CwdCZz0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81yr0oN5BEw Exclave Wüste
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 6, 2012
          --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "kubana2005" <kubana2005@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi, I am interested in enclaves/exclaves that have existed after 1900, but are now extinct.
          > I have found 18 and please correct me if I am wrong, or add something:
          > -Gwadar (1797-1958)
          > -Sao Joao Baptista de Ajuda (1721-1961)
          > -East Pakistan (1955-1971)
          > -Verenahof (till 1967)
          > -Ifni (till 1969)
          > -Walvis Bay (till 1964)
          > -West Berlin
          > -Steinstucken
          > -Bottcherberg
          > -Labzinswiesen
          > -Erlengrund and Fichtewise
          > -Eiskeller exclaves
          > -Zadar (1918-1947)
          > -Suite 212 at Claridges (1945)
          > -Camp Zeist (2000)
          > -Ada Kaleh (till 1923)
          > -Kowloon Walled City (till 1993)
          > -Sastavci
          >
          > Regards, Alex
          >


          Videos of the former Bottcherberg Exclaves in Berlin:
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flH3CwdCZz0

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81yr0oN5BEw

          Exclave Wüste Mark, near Berlin:

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VyQd8SH6fM
        • David Kendall
          For Walvis Bay, is 1964 a typo for 1994? (Or was what s now Namibia considered integral South African territory starting in 1964?)
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 6, 2012
            For Walvis Bay, is 1964 a typo for 1994? (Or was what's now Namibia considered integral South African territory starting in 1964?)

            On 2012-09-06, at 12:56 PM, "beeblebrox3003" <beeblebrox3003@...> wrote:

            >
            >
            > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "kubana2005" <kubana2005@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> Hi, I am interested in enclaves/exclaves that have existed after 1900, but are now extinct.
            >> I have found 18 and please correct me if I am wrong, or add something:
            >> -Gwadar (1797-1958)
            >> -Sao Joao Baptista de Ajuda (1721-1961)
            >> -East Pakistan (1955-1971)
            >> -Verenahof (till 1967)
            >> -Ifni (till 1969)
            >> -Walvis Bay (till 1964)
            >> -West Berlin
            >> -Steinstucken
            >> -Bottcherberg
            >> -Labzinswiesen
            >> -Erlengrund and Fichtewise
            >> -Eiskeller exclaves
            >> -Zadar (1918-1947)
            >> -Suite 212 at Claridges (1945)
            >> -Camp Zeist (2000)
            >> -Ada Kaleh (till 1923)
            >> -Kowloon Walled City (till 1993)
            >> -Sastavci
            >>
            >> Regards, Alex
            >>
            >
            >
            > Videos of the former Bottcherberg Exclaves in Berlin:
            > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flH3CwdCZz0
            >
            > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81yr0oN5BEw
            >
            > Exclave Wüste Mark, near Berlin:
            >
            > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VyQd8SH6fM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
          • ray
            It is an error. Walvis Bay and the Penguin Islands were ceded back to RSA in 1994. One could add the Portuguese and French Indian exclaves, perhaps? Maybe Sidi
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 7, 2012
              It is an error. Walvis Bay and the Penguin Islands were ceded back to RSA in 1994.

              One could add the Portuguese and French Indian exclaves, perhaps? Maybe Sidi Ifni? The Tarfaya Strip? There are many that would qualify only as coastal fragments (including some previously mentioned). The Turkish Tomb in Syria (I forget the name....sorry); Bhutanese enclaves in Sikkim and China? Pagliari, I think, exclave in Lithuania? These are just ideas in addition. I apologies for any inaccuracies here; I am brainstorming and in a rush!!!!

              --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, David Kendall <dhkendall@...> wrote:
              >
              > For Walvis Bay, is 1964 a typo for 1994? (Or was what's now Namibia considered integral South African territory starting in 1964?)
              >
              > On 2012-09-06, at 12:56 PM, "beeblebrox3003" <beeblebrox3003@...> wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "kubana2005" <kubana2005@> wrote:
              > >>
              > >> Hi, I am interested in enclaves/exclaves that have existed after 1900, but are now extinct.
              > >> I have found 18 and please correct me if I am wrong, or add something:
              > >> -Gwadar (1797-1958)
              > >> -Sao Joao Baptista de Ajuda (1721-1961)
              > >> -East Pakistan (1955-1971)
              > >> -Verenahof (till 1967)
              > >> -Ifni (till 1969)
              > >> -Walvis Bay (till 1964)
              > >> -West Berlin
              > >> -Steinstucken
              > >> -Bottcherberg
              > >> -Labzinswiesen
              > >> -Erlengrund and Fichtewise
              > >> -Eiskeller exclaves
              > >> -Zadar (1918-1947)
              > >> -Suite 212 at Claridges (1945)
              > >> -Camp Zeist (2000)
              > >> -Ada Kaleh (till 1923)
              > >> -Kowloon Walled City (till 1993)
              > >> -Sastavci
              > >>
              > >> Regards, Alex
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > > Videos of the former Bottcherberg Exclaves in Berlin:
              > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flH3CwdCZz0
              > >
              > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81yr0oN5BEw
              > >
              > > Exclave Wüste Mark, near Berlin:
              > >
              > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VyQd8SH6fM
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • lnadybal@philatelic.info
              Ifni was a rectangularly shaped colony - not really a detachment of anything. Walvia and the offshore islands were cede not TO RSA but by RSA to Namibia.
              Message 6 of 8 , Sep 7, 2012
                Ifni was a rectangularly shaped colony - not really a detachment of
                anything.
                Walvia and the offshore islands were cede not TO RSA but by RSA to Namibia.
                Bhutan never has had an enclave in Sikkim. It had enclaves around Mt.
                Kailash in Tibet until the cultrual revolution, a trade compond in Lhasa
                until around 1954, the Bhutan House complex in Kalimpong, India (given to
                the Bhutan royal family by the British, just south of the Sikkim border)
                and a religious site in Kathmandu. The Bhutan areas are ambiguous - under
                religious governments, the sites had sovereignty. When the secular kingdom
                was established, the nature of the Kathmandu site and the ones in Tibet
                became a little less definitized. The Kalimpong House is being sold, last
                I heard - it was almost de facto an embassy where the "Bhutan Agent" held
                office, but was made redundant over the years except as a retreat.

                Are you considering leases (worldwide - i.e., the Kosmodrom in Kazakhstan)
                and treaty ports in China - some of which existed into the 1900s? How
                about Nagorno Karabach and the enclaves in it not under Karabach control?

                Regards

                LN







                Original Message:
                -----------------
                From: ray saintsray@...
                Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2012 14:25:05 -0000
                To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [borderpoint] Re: Historic enclaves and exclaves


                It is an error. Walvis Bay and the Penguin Islands were ceded back to RSA
                in 1994.

                One could add the Portuguese and French Indian exclaves, perhaps? Maybe
                Sidi Ifni? The Tarfaya Strip? There are many that would qualify only as
                coastal fragments (including some previously mentioned). The Turkish Tomb
                in Syria (I forget the name....sorry); Bhutanese enclaves in Sikkim and
                China? Pagliari, I think, exclave in Lithuania? These are just ideas in
                addition. I apologies for any inaccuracies here; I am brainstorming and in
                a rush!!!!

                --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, David Kendall <dhkendall@...> wrote:
                >
                > For Walvis Bay, is 1964 a typo for 1994? (Or was what's now Namibia
                considered integral South African territory starting in 1964?)
                >
                > On 2012-09-06, at 12:56 PM, "beeblebrox3003" <beeblebrox3003@...> wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "kubana2005" <kubana2005@> wrote:
                > >>
                > >> Hi, I am interested in enclaves/exclaves that have existed after 1900,
                but are now extinct.
                > >> I have found 18 and please correct me if I am wrong, or add something:
                > >> -Gwadar (1797-1958)
                > >> -Sao Joao Baptista de Ajuda (1721-1961)
                > >> -East Pakistan (1955-1971)
                > >> -Verenahof (till 1967)
                > >> -Ifni (till 1969)
                > >> -Walvis Bay (till 1964)
                > >> -West Berlin
                > >> -Steinstucken
                > >> -Bottcherberg
                > >> -Labzinswiesen
                > >> -Erlengrund and Fichtewise
                > >> -Eiskeller exclaves
                > >> -Zadar (1918-1947)
                > >> -Suite 212 at Claridges (1945)
                > >> -Camp Zeist (2000)
                > >> -Ada Kaleh (till 1923)
                > >> -Kowloon Walled City (till 1993)
                > >> -Sastavci
                > >>
                > >> Regards, Alex
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                > > Videos of the former Bottcherberg Exclaves in Berlin:
                > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flH3CwdCZz0
                > >
                > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81yr0oN5BEw
                > >
                > > Exclave Wüste Mark, near Berlin:
                > >
                > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VyQd8SH6fM
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >




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              • jnibert
                Alex, I realize this is a long time after your original post, and perhaps you aleady captured this. To this list can be added the enclaves of Cooch Behar (now
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 30, 2013
                  Alex,

                  I realize this is a long time after your original post, and perhaps you aleady captured this.

                  To this list can be added the enclaves of Cooch Behar (now part of the Indian state of West Bengal) that had been in the Indian state of Jalpaiguri until the mid-1950s. There were about 35 of them that became "extinct" at that time, when they were made part of Jalpaiguri.

                  From 1947 to 1949, the status of Cooch Behar was unclear, for even though it was no longer a British dependency, it did not assimilate as part of India until 1949. So these were international enclaves during that period. After 1949, they were subnational until their extinction.

                  Of course the 198 current international exclaves of India (106) and Bangladesh(92) (comprised of 217 chhits, 122 and 95, respectively) had their origin with Cooch Behar as well. These will surely become extinct in this century as pressure continues to mount to remove the border complications that give rise to deplorable living conditions for their inhabitants.

                  The source for information about this topic is the thesis by Brendan Whyte (2002), University of Melbourne, available online. It contains exact details.

                  Jeff Nibert



                  --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "kubana2005" wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Maxim,
                  > Thanks for corrections, I forgot those...
                  > any more corrections are welcome
                  >
                  > Regards, Alex
                  > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Maxim Kozlov" wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: kubana2005
                  > > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 3:46 AM
                  > > Subject: [borderpoint] Historic enclaves and exclaves
                  > > Hi, I am interested in enclaves/exclaves that have existed after 1900, but are now extinct.
                  > > I have found 18 and please correct me if I am wrong, or add something:
                  > > -East Pakistan (1955-1971)
                  > > since Pakistan's independence (1947)
                  > > -Walvis Bay (till 1964)
                  > > till Feb 1994
                  > >
                  > > Regards, Alex
                  > >
                  > > You can add:
                  > > - Pagiriai (Lithuania in Belarus, till 26.04.1996)
                  > > - multiple enclaves in Pondichery (France in India and India in France)
                  > > - Benevento (Papal enclave in the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies)
                  > > and many enclaves within the German states
                  > >
                  >
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