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Re: Taiwan and China

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  • Craig Rowland
    ... I recognize Taiwan as independent as well, yet I call Taiwan China . For the People s Republic of China, I refer to it as Chinese Peking . Craig
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 15 7:50 AM
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      --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@...> wrote:
      >
      > I agree!
      >
      > Nations are free to recognize whatever other nations that they wish. There
      > are some that recognize the ROC, and I do too!

      I recognize Taiwan as independent as well, yet I call Taiwan "China". For the People's Republic of China, I refer to it as "Chinese Peking".

      Craig
    • Hugh Wallis
      ... question the legality of the succession of its American colonies, but I think that argument is long lost ;-)
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 15 10:34 AM
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        >> The UK might well
        question the legality of the succession of its American colonies, but
        I think that argument is long lost ;-)

        <<

         
        Not lost at all - please see the following announcement issued recently:


        >  
        style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt; COLOR: black">To: The Citizens of the United States of America 
        >
        style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt; COLOR: black">From: Her Sovereign Majesty Queen  Elizabeth  II
        >

        Despite some promising signs recently, and notwithstanding the pat on the bum that I got from that rather nice lady Michelle, in light of your previous failures to nominate competent candidates for President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective immediately.(You should look up 'revocation' in the Oxford English Dictionary.)

         

        Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths, and territories (except Kansas, which she does not fancy).

         

        Your new Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, will appoint a Governor for America without the need for further elections.

         Congress and the Senate will be disbanded.  A questionnaire may be circulated next year to determine whether any of you noticed.

        >

         To aid in the transition to a British Crown dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:

        >

                                  -----------------------

        >

        1. The letter 'U' will be reinstated in words such as 'colour,' 'favour,' 'labour' and 'neighbour.'  Likewise, you will learn to spell 'doughnut' without skipping half the letters,  and the suffix '-ize' will be replaced by the suffix '-ise.'  Generally, you will be expected to raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels.  (look up 'vocabulary').

        >

                                           ------------------------

        >

         2. Using the same twenty-seven words interspersed with filler noises such as ''like' and 'you know' is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. There is no such thing as U.S. English. We will let Microsoft know on your behalf.  The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take into account the reinstated letter 'u'' and the elimination of  '-ize.'

        >

                                    -------------------

        >

         3. July 4th will no longer be celebrated as a holiday.

        >

                                       -----------------

        >

        4. You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers, or therapists.  The fact that you need so many lawyers and therapists shows that you're not quite ready to be independent.  Guns should only be used for shooting grouse.  If you can't sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist, then you're not ready to shoot grouse.

        >

                                     ----------------------

        >

         5. Therefore, you will no longer be allowed to own or carry anything more dangerous than a vegetable peeler.  Although a permit will be required if you wish to carry a vegetable peeler in public.

        >

                                    ----------------------

        >

         6. All intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start driving on the left side with immediate effect.  At the same time, you will go metric with immediate effect and without the benefit of conversion tables.   Both roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the British sense of humour.

        >

                                       --------------------

        >

         7. The former USA will adopt UK prices on petrol (which you have been calling gasoline) of roughly $10/US gallon - that's somewhat more for real gallons.  Get used to it.

        >  
        style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">                                -------------------
        >

         8. You will learn to make real chips.  Those things you call French fries are not real chips, and those things you insist on calling potato chips are properly called crisps.  Real chips are thick cut, fried in animal fat, and dressed not with catsup but with vinegar.

        >

                                            -------------------

        >

         9. The cold, tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually beer at all.  Henceforth, only proper British Bitter will be referred to as beer, and European brews of  known and accepted provenance will be referred to as Lager.  South African beer is also acceptable, as they are pound for pound the greatest sporting nation on earth and it can only be due to the beer.  They are also part of the British Commonwealth - see what it did for them.  American brands will be referred to as Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine, so that all can be sold without risk of further confusion.

        >

                                  ---------------------

        >

        10. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as good guys.  Hollywood will also be required to cast English actors to play English characters.  Watching Andie Macdowell attempt English dialogue in Four Weddings and a Funeral was an experience akin to having one's ears removed  with a cheese grater.

        >

                                     ---------------------

        >

        11. You will cease playing American football.  There is only one kind of proper football; you call it soccer.  Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which has some similarities to American football, but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like a bunch of nancies). 

        >

                                      ---------------------

        >

        12. Further, you will stop playing baseball.  It is not reasonable to host an event called the World Series for a game which excludes teams  from outside the USA (notwithstanding your feeble attempt to argue the point that you actually allowed teams from Canada to participate).  Since only 2.1% of you are aware there is a world beyond your borders and that Canada is not actually the 51st state, your error is understandable.  You will learn cricket, and we will let you face the South Africans first to take the sting out of their deliveries.

        >

                              --------------------

        >

        13. You must tell us who killed JFK.  It's been driving us mad.

        >

                                          -----------------

        >

         14. An internal revenue agent (i.e. tax collector) from Her Majesty's Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all monies due (backdated to 1776).

        >

                                              ---------------

        >

         15. Daily Tea Time begins promptly at 4 p.m. with proper cups, with saucers, and never mugs, with high quality biscuits (which you call cookies) and cakes; plus strawberries (with cream) when in season.

        >


        >  

                              God Save the Queen!  

                                              

        >

         PS:  Only share this with friends who have a good sense of humour (NOT humor)!



        From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Meynell
        Sent: April 11, 2009 05:28
        To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Taiwan and China


        >The problem is that even the Taiwan itself (ROC) claimes that it is
        >part of China

        But how much do the Taiwanese really believe this themselves now? The
        problem is that renunciation of this claim is essentially a
        declaration of independence, which will bring them into conflict with
        the PRC (as I believe the PRC has publicly threatened to invade if
        independence is declared).

        >85% of Kosovo is independent
        practically and recognized by 56
        >countries, but I still consider it to
        be a NATO puppet state

        Without getting into the rights and wrongs of this, there have been
        plenty of ostensibly sovereign states throughout history that have
        the puppets of others. Nevertheless, I personally consider Kosovo to
        be one of these limbo territories at the moment - not a full
        sovereign nation, but not under the de-jure control of another.

        >We will see about the International Court of Justice
        opinion,
        >because Serbia has officially ask them to say ''whether the
        Kosovo's
        >independence is in accordance with international
        law''.

        Many territories declared independence and became sovereign nations
        before the ICJ was around to give its opinion. The UK might well
        question the legality of the succession of its American colonies, but
        I think that argument is long lost ;-)

        Regards,

        Kevin Meynell

      • Roger McCutcheon
        Go metric?! That s hardly British! Who ever heard of going the whole eight point two three metres? Roger & out.
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 15 11:40 AM
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          Go metric?! That's hardly British! Who ever heard of going the whole eight
          point two three metres? Roger & out.
        • Goyta' F. Villela Jr.
          ... Easy, Stefan, no need to shout... Well, the Brazilian press still calls the PRC s capital Pequim , the Portuguese form of Peking , as well as Mao
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 17 7:17 AM
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            > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Craig Rowland" <sapcor20@...>
            > wrote: > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus"
            > <lgm@> wrote: > > > > I agree! > > > > Nations are free to recognize
            > whatever other nations that they wish. There > > are some that
            > recognize the ROC, and I do too! > > I recognize Taiwan as independent
            > as well, yet I call Taiwan "China". For the People's Republic of
            > China, I refer to it as "Chinese Peking". > > Craig >
            >
            > YES, ONLY THE REPUBLIC OF CHINA (TAIWAN) IS THE REAL CHINA. THE "PRC"
            > IS ONLY A YELLOW RUSSIAN REGIME.

            Easy, Stefan, no need to shout... Well, the Brazilian press still
            calls the PRC's capital "Pequim", the Portuguese form of "Peking", as
            well as "Mao Tse-tung", and never adopted "Beijing", "Mao Zedong" and
            some other pinyin names of well-known places and persons that go
            against long-established (Wade-Giles) custom, but then other
            countries never adopted "Xianggang" instead of "Hong Kong" either
            (not even the HKSAR government did). However, "Beijing" is so common
            now in English that I laughed out loud at Craig's irony on the
            Olympic Committee's (and some other entities') contrived way of
            admitting Taiwan without officially recognising the ROC.

            But it seems to me that 60 years is a long enough time to dilute any
            historic legitimacy claims by making the situation that originated
            them totally irrelevant in a very much changed context. Both Mao and
            Chiang Kai-shek are dead, after all - and so is much of what they had
            in mind for their respective parts of China. And such things get even
            more irrelevant when there is such a disproportionate territorial and
            populational control between the two regimes. When one says "China"
            one thinks of mainland China, and when one says "Taiwan" one thinks
            in practice of another, much smaller country that shares a Chinese
            cultural background - not unlike Germany and Austria, and in fact
            with much greater differences between them than between the two
            European countries. Were it not for the significant Malay and Indian
            components of Singapore's population, one wouldn't think of it much
            differently from Taiwan (and in fact one often does think of it very
            similarly).

            Legitimate or not, it is very hard to ignore a regime that has been
            in power for 60 years, controls a huge area with a fifth of the
            planet's population, and has nuclear weapons and ICBMs. The Cold War
            gave Taiwan's international recognition some extra time, but already
            in the early 1970s there was a general shift toward recognising the
            PRC - the U.S. did, Japan did, Europe did, even Brazil did (and mind
            you, in the 1970s Brazil was under a staunch anti-Communist right-
            wing military dictatorship with many affinities to the Kuomintang
            regime of the time). And that was long before the PRC became an
            economic superpower. Now it would be extremely unrealistic for the
            ROC to expect any significant recognition other than a few small
            bought supporters like Paraguay or Tuvalu. The PRC is a fact of life,
            and even the ROC had to accomodate and tacitly recognise it in many
            ways (and vice versa).

            What will happen in the long term? Who knows? Anything is possible.
            The "two Chinas" are fundamentally incompatible today. Mainland China
            is Communist only in name now, but it is still certainly totalitarian
            to the highest degree. Taiwan was for decades an authoritarian
            country on the other extremity of the political spectrum, and while
            it has improved a lot, it is still far from being the freest country
            in the world (and ask the aboriginal Taiwanese minority about what
            the Chinese newcomers still do to them today - in case you don't
            know, although the Chinese had *visited* the island many times
            before, they only *settled* there in the 17th century, so Taiwan has
            had a Chinese population for about the same time as North America has
            had an Anglo-Saxon one).

            But economically, Taiwan is by and large a developed country now,
            with much less inequality and more proportional wealth than the
            mainland, which still has more poor peasants than the EU's
            population. Taiwan is small and insular (with all the indirect but
            far-reaching consequences of that), the mainland is huge and
            (literally) continental.

            And as if all these incompatibilities were not enough, the definitive
            incompatibility is that there are two political groups that want
            power - *all* of it, no competition, over *all* of China (and they
            disagree even about what "China" is). They only agree on the
            "Highlander" premise: "there can be only one!"

            The only reason why I believe that they will eventually be reunited -
            even if it takes decades, which is nothing for a people that is used
            to thinking in terms of millennia - is because the Taiwanese consider
            themselves Chinese, regardless of any propaganda. People have
            relatives on the mainland, their parents and grandparents came from
            all over China with the Kuomintang, Chinese culture and traditions
            are very much alive. They are Chinese and are (justly) proud of being
            so.

            Austrians never considered themselves members of that artificial
            quilt of hundreds of Liechtensteins sewn by Bismarck and his Prussia,
            even speaking the same language. Not even during the Anschluss, in
            spite of all the collaboration stories we hear about. Even Germans
            themselves took quite a while to get used to the idea.
            "Deutschland??? Was ist dieses komisches Ding?"

            This is a non-issue to the Taiwanese - they would love to get back
            home, under whatever government, but they have conquered a lot to
            lose and know that if Beijing wished to wipe them out of the earth,
            Hu Jintao could do it by SMS messaging. Fortunately, it is not in the
            Party's interests and they also don't want to face the serious
            consequences of that. Still, the Taiwanese have to be cautious. So,
            the stalemate goes on. Until, of course, something or someone new
            appears and changes the situation, breaking the stalemate. Not
            necessarily a Gorbachev, but with a comparable reach - and it could
            happen on either side of the strait.

            As for the PRC being a "yellow Russian regime", well, Stefan, even
            disregarding how terribly bad and racist "yellow" sounds in this
            context, I can't see where you got that from. Mao was a Communist,
            Stalin was a Communist, but it ended there. Mao never trusted the
            Russians (or vice versa) and he only aligned China to them for a
            short time and when he was still consolidating his power.

            Then there was the so-called "Sino-Soviet Split", and it was for
            real. Their ideology soon diverged in many points, and while at first
            Stalin certainly expected China to be a docile satellite under the
            sway of the "Genius Guide of the Peoples", things soon went the other
            way. For most of the time, China was a nuisance even greater to the
            Soviets than the West (which they needed anyway to create a polarised
            situation that ultimately helped both sides to keep power in their
            respective areas of control and influence). China was a direct
            competitor for power and influence in their own sphere, the last
            thing the Soviets wanted. Ask the Albanians.

            Even their "modus operandi" was different: the USSR had Stalin's
            purges and Gulags, but not even he would think of a Great Proletarian
            Cultural Revolution in his wildest dreams (of course not: Stalin was
            terribly afraid of the people, which was the very reason he killed
            them "en masse" - he wouldn't risk mobilising them). Gorbachev made a
            historic visit to China in 1989 but it went almost unnoticed because
            it happened in the same week as the Tiananmen protests. Had it not
            been for that unfortunate timing, it would have made really, really
            big news, because it was a dramatic thaw of decades of tension. And
            today, with Russia squeezed between Putin's (still Putin's, not
            Medvedev's) renewed national-imperialism, Moscow's plutocrats and the
            Mafia, and China going much more wildly capitalist than them while
            still under a monolithic single-party regime, they couldn't be more
            different.

            Enough digressions for today! Regards to all!

            Goytá
          • Goyta' F. Villela Jr.
            ... I have seen some variants of that over the years - including a video by Fry and Laurie (the latter a.k.a. Dr. House now) that you can find on YouTube,
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 17 7:55 AM
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              > >> The UK might well
              > question the legality of the succession of its American colonies, but
              > I think that argument is long lost ;-) <<
              >
              >
              > Not lost at all - please see the following announcement issued
              > recently:

              I have seen some variants of that over the years - including a video
              by Fry and Laurie (the latter a.k.a. Dr. House now) that you can find
              on YouTube, where New York City was to be renamed "Chiddington-on-
              Sea" (or something like that). Oh, most entertaining indeed, my dear!
              :-)

              Honestly, I really never understood why Americans call that thing
              "football", since it's not played with the feet and that strange
              artifact can hardly be called a "ball"... And "World Series" is
              really a joke, considering that other than the U.S. and Canada,
              baseball is only played in less than a handful of other countries
              (Japan, Venezuela and, God forbid, Cuba) and they have never been
              invited. Not that I'm a sports fan - on the contrary, I throw away
              the sports section of the paper without reading, zap channels or turn
              the TV off when they play *any* sports, ignore the Olympics
              olympically, and one day they will revoke my Brazilian citizenship
              because I don't even watch FIFA World Cup games, which here is close
              to high treason...

              But when I came to Borderpoint I decided to use the British spelling
              just because the group has a really international membership and that
              is the standard in most of their countries. I analyze topics with
              humor in other groups... :-)

              Best regards,

              Goytá
            • David Kendall
              From: Goyta F. Villela Jr. ... They ll do that here if you dono t watch hockey. They ll probably come for me as well, as I don t watch
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 17 8:29 AM
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                From: "Goyta' F. Villela Jr." <goytabr@...>

                > one day they will revoke my Brazilian
                > citizenship
                > because I don't even watch FIFA World Cup games, which here is
                > close
                > to high treason...

                They'll do that here if you dono't watch hockey. They'll probably come for me as well, as I don't watch sports at all (though I do watch the Olympics, but mainly for the flags and anthems) including hockey, can't even skate, and rarely drink beer. :)

                > But when I came to Borderpoint I decided to use the British
                > spelling
                > just because the group has a really international membership and
                > that
                > is the standard in most of their countries. I analyze topics
                > with
                > humor in other groups... :-)

                Perhaps if you analyzed things with humo*u*r here, we'd believe you on the British spelling part ... ;)

                --
                David Kendall
                dhkendall@...
                blog: http://thecanuckguy.livejournal.com/
              • Kevin Meynell
                ... In fairness, modern day football (soccer) evolved from games where handling was always allowed, but they were still all referred to as football. I suspect
                Message 7 of 19 , Apr 17 8:36 AM
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                  >Honestly, I really never understood why Americans call that thing
                  >"football", since it's not played with the feet and that strange
                  >artifact can hardly be called a "ball"...

                  In fairness, modern day football (soccer) evolved from games where
                  handling was always allowed, but they were still all referred to as
                  football. I suspect there was reference to using the feet because
                  mass rucks (which live on in rugby union) were a major element of the game.

                  The various 'football' games eventually coalesced into the two codes
                  of Association Football and Rugby Football, although limited handling
                  of the ball was still permitted under the early rules of soccer
                  ('hand passing' and the 'fair catch').

                  Rugby Football eventually split further into Rugby League, and into
                  American and Canadian Football. Although these codes all allow
                  handling, they officially still retain 'football' in their names.

                  Regards,

                  Kevin Meynell
                • Hugh Wallis
                  ... really a joke, considering that other than the U.S. and Canada, baseball is only played in less than a handful of other countries
                  Message 8 of 19 , Apr 17 8:46 AM
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                    >>And "World Series" is
                    really a joke, considering that other than the U.S. and Canada,
                    baseball is only played in less than a handful of other countries

                    <<
                     
                    Actually, to be fair, a read of the article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Series#International_impact_and_explanation_of_the_term_.22World.22_Series does provide a plausible explanation for this apparently inappropriate name.


                    From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Goyta' F. Villela Jr.
                    Sent: April 17, 2009 10:56
                    To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Taiwan and China (going OT a bit)

                    > >> The UK might well
                    > question the legality of the

                    succession of its American colonies, but
                    > I think that argument is long
                    lost ;-) <<
                    >
                    >
                    > Not lost at all - please see the
                    following announcement issued
                    > recently:

                    I have seen some variants of that over the years - including a video
                    by Fry and Laurie (the latter a.k.a. Dr. House now) that you can find
                    on YouTube, where New York City was to be renamed "Chiddington- on-
                    Sea" (or something like that). Oh, most entertaining indeed, my dear!
                    :-)

                    Honestly, I really never understood why Americans call that thing
                    "football", since it's not played with the feet and that strange
                    artifact can hardly be called a "ball"... And "World Series" is
                    really a joke, considering that other than the U.S. and Canada,
                    baseball is only played in less than a handful of other countries
                    (Japan, Venezuela and, God forbid, Cuba) and they have never been
                    invited. Not that I'm a sports fan - on the contrary, I throw away
                    the sports section of the paper without reading, zap channels or turn
                    the TV off when they play *any* sports, ignore the Olympics
                    olympically, and one day they will revoke my Brazilian citizenship
                    because I don't even watch FIFA World Cup games, which here is close
                    to high treason...

                    But when I came to Borderpoint I decided to use the British spelling
                    just because the group has a really international membership and that
                    is the standard in most of their countries. I analyze topics with
                    humor in other groups... :-)

                    Best regards,

                    Goytá

                  • Lowell G. McManus
                    Goytá, Speaking for myself, your contributions here have been most welcome and informative. ... (Japan, Venezuela and, God forbid, Cuba) and they have never
                    Message 9 of 19 , Apr 17 8:49 AM
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                      Goytá,

                      Speaking for myself, your contributions here have been most welcome and
                      informative.

                      You wrote:

                      > And "World Series" is really a joke, considering that other than the U.S.
                      > and Canada, baseball is only played in less than a handful of other
                      > countries
                      (Japan, Venezuela and, God forbid, Cuba) and they have never been invited.

                      While I cannot comprehend or defend my countrymen's obsession with either
                      football or the mind-numbingly boring game of baseball, I can tell you that
                      the Mexicans are just as devoted to the latter, which they call "béisbol."

                      Lowell G. McManus
                      Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                    • Kevin Meynell
                      ... It has been suggested that the one country, two systems notion was originally devised with Taiwan rather than Hong Kong (and Macau) in mind. The notion
                      Message 10 of 19 , Apr 17 8:55 AM
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                        >The "two Chinas" are fundamentally incompatible today.

                        It has been suggested that the 'one country, two systems' notion was
                        originally devised with Taiwan rather than Hong Kong (and Macau) in
                        mind. The notion that Communist China and arch-capitalist Hong Kong
                        could get along seemed utterly fanciful only 20 years ago, so perhaps
                        a similar arrangement will be possible between China and Taiwan in future.

                        In my view, Hong Kong is largely a separate country from China
                        anyway. It has its own government, its own passports, its own
                        immigration policies, drives on the left as opposed to the right, and
                        international treaties regulate what the PRC can do in the territory.

                        >the definitive incompatibility is that there are two political
                        >groups that want power - *all* of it, no competition, over *all* of
                        >China (and they disagree even about what "China" is).

                        The various politicians can play all the games they wish, but I
                        prefer to deal in realities. The current reality is that China and
                        Taiwan are currently separate countries with well defined borders,
                        and all the trappings of sovereign states. They may eventually get
                        back together, and good luck to them if they do, but until that day
                        I'm not interested in their legal fictions ;-)

                        Regards,

                        Kevin Meynell
                      • kubana2005
                        Taiwan claims that it is part of China (ROC), and that there is only one China. According to UN and over 160 countries the only legal china is PRC, which means
                        Message 11 of 19 , Apr 21 9:29 AM
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                          Taiwan claims that it is part of China (ROC), and that there is only one China. According to UN and over 160 countries the only legal china is PRC, which means that Taiwan is a province of PRC. I do support ROC over PRC and I do support Taiwanese independence, but it is always tricky to me to explain to non-border/geography geeks whether the Taiwan is independent (which I do consider it to be, just like Palestine).

                          The best option for that dispute would be (my personal belief) Federal Republic of China, consisting of PRC and ROC (both republics). This is the only way that both Mainland and Taiwan would be satisfied. That could also apply to Cyprus and Korea dispute.
                        • Lowell G. McManus
                          ... The PRC wants Taiwan, just as the ROC wants Beijing (and even Mongolia). The people in Hell want ice water, but that doesn t mean they re going to get it.
                          Message 12 of 19 , Apr 21 10:42 AM
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                            Kubana wrote:

                            > According to UN and over 160 countries the only legal china is PRC, which
                            > means that Taiwan is a province of PRC.

                            The PRC wants Taiwan, just as the ROC wants Beijing (and even Mongolia).

                            The people in Hell want ice water, but that doesn't mean they're going to
                            get it.

                            ...and who gave the UN the authority to give lands and peoples to
                            governments that have never held them? This reminds me of Pope Alexander VI
                            (Roderic Borgia) dividing the non-European world between Castille and
                            Portugal in 1493 (between his orgies in the Vatican Palace and incest with
                            his teen-aged daughter Lucrezia).

                            Lowell G. McManus
                            Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
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