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Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour

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  • Peter Smaardijk
    I haven t had the time to read it yet, but it looks promising - hopefully one of our Poles can have a look: http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 22, 2005
      I haven't had the time to read it yet, but it looks promising -
      hopefully one of our Poles can have a look:

      http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
      op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=496&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

      http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
      op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=497&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

      Peter

      --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
      <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
      >
      > The exclave(s) that the Czech Republic holds in Hamburg harbour
      are probably
      > known to most of you - according to state law it (they) is (are)
      only
      > extra-territorial subjects on German soil.
      >
      > But how about the exclave in Stettin harbour that the young
      Czechoslovakia
      > was granted as per the Versailles Treaty in 1919? It never made
      great noise.
      > Did it ever exist? And if so, where is it located in today's
      Szczecin? And
      > which status did it have - and may still have?
      >
      > Questions, that move the World! Thank you, my Polish and Czech
      friends in
      > particular, for bringing some light into the darkness that has
      fallen over
      > that ultimate mystery of life! Also Brendan Whyte from around the
      Globe may
      > have an answer...?
      >
      > Wolfgang
      >
    • Wolfgang Schaub
      That was extremely helpful, Peter. Thank you very much! The interesting spots in the text are cleary visible, and leave me only with the alternative to either
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 22, 2005
        That was extremely helpful, Peter. Thank you very much!

        The interesting spots in the text are cleary visible, and leave me only with
        the alternative to either finally attend a quick course in Polish or to find
        a mild-hearted fellow from across the Oder to read this to me.

        Thanks again,

        Wolfgang

        -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
        Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
        Auftrag von Peter Smaardijk
        Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 14:00
        An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
        Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour


        I haven't had the time to read it yet, but it looks promising -
        hopefully one of our Poles can have a look:

        http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
        op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=496&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

        http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
        op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=497&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

        Peter

        --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
        <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
        >
        > The exclave(s) that the Czech Republic holds in Hamburg harbour
        are probably
        > known to most of you - according to state law it (they) is (are)
        only
        > extra-territorial subjects on German soil.
        >
        > But how about the exclave in Stettin harbour that the young
        Czechoslovakia
        > was granted as per the Versailles Treaty in 1919? It never made
        great noise.
        > Did it ever exist? And if so, where is it located in today's
        Szczecin? And
        > which status did it have - and may still have?
        >
        > Questions, that move the World! Thank you, my Polish and Czech
        friends in
        > particular, for bringing some light into the darkness that has
        fallen over
        > that ultimate mystery of life! Also Brendan Whyte from around the
        Globe may
        > have an answer...?
        >
        > Wolfgang
        >









        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • jimvandura
        Hi! A third alternative, if not a self-contradiction too, may be: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/8623 -- Jimi
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 22, 2005
          Hi! A third alternative, if not a self-contradiction too, may be:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/8623
          -- Jimi

          --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub" <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
          >
          > That was extremely helpful, Peter. Thank you very much!
          >
          > The interesting spots in the text are cleary visible, and leave me only with
          > the alternative to either finally attend a quick course in Polish or to find
          > a mild-hearted fellow from across the Oder to read this to me.
          >
          > Thanks again,
          >
          > Wolfgang
          >
          > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
          > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
          > Auftrag von Peter Smaardijk
          > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 14:00
          > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
          > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
          >
          >
          > I haven't had the time to read it yet, but it looks promising -
          > hopefully one of our Poles can have a look:
          >
          > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
          > op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=496&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
          >
          > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
          > op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=497&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
          >
          > Peter
          >
          > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
          > <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
          > >
          > > The exclave(s) that the Czech Republic holds in Hamburg harbour
          > are probably
          > > known to most of you - according to state law it (they) is (are)
          > only
          > > extra-territorial subjects on German soil.
          > >
          > > But how about the exclave in Stettin harbour that the young
          > Czechoslovakia
          > > was granted as per the Versailles Treaty in 1919? It never made
          > great noise.
          > > Did it ever exist? And if so, where is it located in today's
          > Szczecin? And
          > > which status did it have - and may still have?
          > >
          > > Questions, that move the World! Thank you, my Polish and Czech
          > friends in
          > > particular, for bringing some light into the darkness that has
          > fallen over
          > > that ultimate mystery of life! Also Brendan Whyte from around the
          > Globe may
          > > have an answer...?
          > >
          > > Wolfgang
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
        • Wolfgang Schaub
          Thank you, Jimi. Very helpful, indeed. I consulted in the meantime the forum http://www.megagratis.de/jump.php?id=2331 and http://www.forumromanum.de
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 22, 2005
            Thank you, Jimi. Very helpful, indeed. I consulted in the meantime the forum
            http://www.megagratis.de/jump.php?id=2331 and http://www.forumromanum.de
            respectively, which say their members can translate Polish texts for free. I
            gave them the 2 links that Peter provided, told them what to focus on, and
            will post the outcome, if any.

            Wolfgang

            -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
            Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
            Auftrag von jimvandura
            Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 20:49
            An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
            Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour


            Hi! A third alternative, if not a self-contradiction too, may be:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/8623
            -- Jimi

            --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub" <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...>
            wrote:
            >
            > That was extremely helpful, Peter. Thank you very much!
            >
            > The interesting spots in the text are cleary visible, and leave me only
            with
            > the alternative to either finally attend a quick course in Polish or to
            find
            > a mild-hearted fellow from across the Oder to read this to me.
            >
            > Thanks again,
            >
            > Wolfgang
            >
            > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
            > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
            > Auftrag von Peter Smaardijk
            > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 14:00
            > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
            > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
            >
            >
            > I haven't had the time to read it yet, but it looks promising -
            > hopefully one of our Poles can have a look:
            >
            > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
            > op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=496&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
            >
            > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
            > op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=497&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
            >
            > Peter
            >
            > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
            > <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
            > >
            > > The exclave(s) that the Czech Republic holds in Hamburg harbour
            > are probably
            > > known to most of you - according to state law it (they) is (are)
            > only
            > > extra-territorial subjects on German soil.
            > >
            > > But how about the exclave in Stettin harbour that the young
            > Czechoslovakia
            > > was granted as per the Versailles Treaty in 1919? It never made
            > great noise.
            > > Did it ever exist? And if so, where is it located in today's
            > Szczecin? And
            > > which status did it have - and may still have?
            > >
            > > Questions, that move the World! Thank you, my Polish and Czech
            > friends in
            > > particular, for bringing some light into the darkness that has
            > fallen over
            > > that ultimate mystery of life! Also Brendan Whyte from around the
            > Globe may
            > > have an answer...?
            > >
            > > Wolfgang
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >









            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • jimvandura
            You re welcome. I love this bogus stuff. And I m sure there s no etymological connection either, nor hardly a trace of anything Czech in Szczechin for that
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 22, 2005
              You're welcome. I love this bogus stuff. And I'm sure there's no etymological connection
              either, nor hardly a trace of anything Czech in Szczechin for that matter, except when so
              zanily missspelled (1640 times by Google count). Jv

              --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub" <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
              >
              > Thank you, Jimi. Very helpful, indeed. I consulted in the meantime the forum
              > http://www.megagratis.de/jump.php?id=2331 and http://www.forumromanum.de
              > respectively, which say their members can translate Polish texts for free. I
              > gave them the 2 links that Peter provided, told them what to focus on, and
              > will post the outcome, if any.
              >
              > Wolfgang
              >
              > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
              > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
              > Auftrag von jimvandura
              > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 20:49
              > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
              > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
              >
              >
              > Hi! A third alternative, if not a self-contradiction too, may be:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/8623
              > -- Jimi
              >
              > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub" <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > That was extremely helpful, Peter. Thank you very much!
              > >
              > > The interesting spots in the text are cleary visible, and leave me only
              > with
              > > the alternative to either finally attend a quick course in Polish or to
              > find
              > > a mild-hearted fellow from across the Oder to read this to me.
              > >
              > > Thanks again,
              > >
              > > Wolfgang
              > >
              > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
              > > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
              > > Auftrag von Peter Smaardijk
              > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 14:00
              > > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
              > > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
              > >
              > >
              > > I haven't had the time to read it yet, but it looks promising -
              > > hopefully one of our Poles can have a look:
              > >
              > > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
              > > op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=496&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
              > >
              > > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
              > > op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=497&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
              > >
              > > Peter
              > >
              > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
              > > <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > The exclave(s) that the Czech Republic holds in Hamburg harbour
              > > are probably
              > > > known to most of you - according to state law it (they) is (are)
              > > only
              > > > extra-territorial subjects on German soil.
              > > >
              > > > But how about the exclave in Stettin harbour that the young
              > > Czechoslovakia
              > > > was granted as per the Versailles Treaty in 1919? It never made
              > > great noise.
              > > > Did it ever exist? And if so, where is it located in today's
              > > Szczecin? And
              > > > which status did it have - and may still have?
              > > >
              > > > Questions, that move the World! Thank you, my Polish and Czech
              > > friends in
              > > > particular, for bringing some light into the darkness that has
              > > fallen over
              > > > that ultimate mystery of life! Also Brendan Whyte from around the
              > > Globe may
              > > > have an answer...?
              > > >
              > > > Wolfgang
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
            • Wolfgang Schaub
              Szczecin in Czech would read Š?é?in or Š?e?ín - if i m not mistaken. To google for Š?é?in? Doesn t make much sense because I simpleton do not know Czech
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 23, 2005
                Szczecin in Czech would read Š?é?in or Š?e?ín - if i'm not mistaken. To
                google for Š?é?in? Doesn't make much sense because I simpleton do not know
                Czech either. Actually it appears from Len's old posting that the matter was
                entirely German - Czech. We should rather find the old Buergermeister of
                Stettin and ask him. More precisely, it must have been an affair that the
                Weimar Republic - 1919 - 1932 - had to deal with; the Nazis would have ended
                the exclave abruptly, as they have done in the Hamburg case.

                So I google for "Stettin" and "tschechisch": 837 hits - too many. And
                "Stettin", "tschechisch" and "Exklave" or "Enklave": still 123 hits. All
                seem to talk about Kaliningrad (as an enclave) and its significance as a
                harbour, similar to Stettin. Fuck.

                Wolfgang

                -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                Auftrag von jimvandura
                Gesendet: Freitag, 23. Dezember 2005 00:33
                An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour


                You're welcome. I love this bogus stuff. And I'm sure there's no
                etymological connection
                either, nor hardly a trace of anything Czech in Szczechin for that matter,
                except when so
                zanily missspelled (1640 times by Google count). Jv

                --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub" <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Thank you, Jimi. Very helpful, indeed. I consulted in the meantime the
                forum
                > http://www.megagratis.de/jump.php?id=2331 and http://www.forumromanum.de
                > respectively, which say their members can translate Polish texts for free.
                I
                > gave them the 2 links that Peter provided, told them what to focus on, and
                > will post the outcome, if any.
                >
                > Wolfgang
                >
                > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                > Auftrag von jimvandura
                > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 20:49
                > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                >
                >
                > Hi! A third alternative, if not a self-contradiction too, may be:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/8623
                > -- Jimi
                >
                > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > That was extremely helpful, Peter. Thank you very much!
                > >
                > > The interesting spots in the text are cleary visible, and leave me only
                > with
                > > the alternative to either finally attend a quick course in Polish or to
                > find
                > > a mild-hearted fellow from across the Oder to read this to me.
                > >
                > > Thanks again,
                > >
                > > Wolfgang
                > >
                > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                > > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                > > Auftrag von Peter Smaardijk
                > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 14:00
                > > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                > > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                > >
                > >
                > > I haven't had the time to read it yet, but it looks promising -
                > > hopefully one of our Poles can have a look:
                > >
                > > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
                > > op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=496&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
                > >
                > > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
                > > op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=497&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
                > >
                > > Peter
                > >
                > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                > > <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > The exclave(s) that the Czech Republic holds in Hamburg harbour
                > > are probably
                > > > known to most of you - according to state law it (they) is (are)
                > > only
                > > > extra-territorial subjects on German soil.
                > > >
                > > > But how about the exclave in Stettin harbour that the young
                > > Czechoslovakia
                > > > was granted as per the Versailles Treaty in 1919? It never made
                > > great noise.
                > > > Did it ever exist? And if so, where is it located in today's
                > > Szczecin? And
                > > > which status did it have - and may still have?
                > > >
                > > > Questions, that move the World! Thank you, my Polish and Czech
                > > friends in
                > > > particular, for bringing some light into the darkness that has
                > > fallen over
                > > > that ultimate mystery of life! Also Brendan Whyte from around the
                > > Globe may
                > > > have an answer...?
                > > >
                > > > Wolfgang
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >









                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • L. A. Nadybal
                I contacted the city government in Stettin some time back - the historical office said there is no record of any city liability to support a leased territory,
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 23, 2005
                  I contacted the city government in Stettin some time back - the
                  historical office said there is no record of any city liability to
                  support a leased territory, for as long as the town has been Polish.
                  It's odd that the Hamburg arrangement survived (or was revived after
                  the fall of the 3rd reich) through the occupation (British Zone) and
                  to the BRD as a successor state, and the Stettin one didn't (under
                  Russian domination affer the war on behalf of a "brotherly" state).
                  Knowing the Russians like I don't, they probably felt no obligation to
                  a subjugated Czech state, anyway.
                  LN

                  --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                  <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Szczecin in Czech would read Š?é?in or Š?e?ín - if i'm not mistaken. To
                  > google for Š?é?in? Doesn't make much sense because I simpleton do
                  not know
                  > Czech either. Actually it appears from Len's old posting that the
                  matter was
                  > entirely German - Czech. We should rather find the old Buergermeister of
                  > Stettin and ask him. More precisely, it must have been an affair
                  that the
                  > Weimar Republic - 1919 - 1932 - had to deal with; the Nazis would
                  have ended
                  > the exclave abruptly, as they have done in the Hamburg case.
                  >
                  > So I google for "Stettin" and "tschechisch": 837 hits - too many. And
                  > "Stettin", "tschechisch" and "Exklave" or "Enklave": still 123 hits. All
                  > seem to talk about Kaliningrad (as an enclave) and its significance as a
                  > harbour, similar to Stettin. Fuck.
                  >
                  > Wolfgang
                  >
                  > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                  > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                  > Auftrag von jimvandura
                  > Gesendet: Freitag, 23. Dezember 2005 00:33
                  > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                  >
                  >
                  > You're welcome. I love this bogus stuff. And I'm sure there's no
                  > etymological connection
                  > either, nor hardly a trace of anything Czech in Szczechin for that
                  matter,
                  > except when so
                  > zanily missspelled (1640 times by Google count). Jv
                  >
                  > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                  <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Thank you, Jimi. Very helpful, indeed. I consulted in the meantime the
                  > forum
                  > > http://www.megagratis.de/jump.php?id=2331 and
                  http://www.forumromanum.de
                  > > respectively, which say their members can translate Polish texts
                  for free.
                  > I
                  > > gave them the 2 links that Peter provided, told them what to focus
                  on, and
                  > > will post the outcome, if any.
                  > >
                  > > Wolfgang
                  > >
                  > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                  > > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                  > > Auftrag von jimvandura
                  > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 20:49
                  > > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Hi! A third alternative, if not a self-contradiction too, may be:
                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/8623
                  > > -- Jimi
                  > >
                  > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                  > <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > That was extremely helpful, Peter. Thank you very much!
                  > > >
                  > > > The interesting spots in the text are cleary visible, and leave
                  me only
                  > > with
                  > > > the alternative to either finally attend a quick course in
                  Polish or to
                  > > find
                  > > > a mild-hearted fellow from across the Oder to read this to me.
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks again,
                  > > >
                  > > > Wolfgang
                  > > >
                  > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                  > > > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                  > > > Auftrag von Peter Smaardijk
                  > > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 14:00
                  > > > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > I haven't had the time to read it yet, but it looks promising -
                  > > > hopefully one of our Poles can have a look:
                  > > >
                  > > > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
                  > > >
                  op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=496&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
                  > > >
                  > > > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
                  > > >
                  op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=497&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
                  > > >
                  > > > Peter
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                  > > > <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > The exclave(s) that the Czech Republic holds in Hamburg harbour
                  > > > are probably
                  > > > > known to most of you - according to state law it (they) is (are)
                  > > > only
                  > > > > extra-territorial subjects on German soil.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > But how about the exclave in Stettin harbour that the young
                  > > > Czechoslovakia
                  > > > > was granted as per the Versailles Treaty in 1919? It never made
                  > > > great noise.
                  > > > > Did it ever exist? And if so, where is it located in today's
                  > > > Szczecin? And
                  > > > > which status did it have - and may still have?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Questions, that move the World! Thank you, my Polish and Czech
                  > > > friends in
                  > > > > particular, for bringing some light into the darkness that has
                  > > > fallen over
                  > > > > that ultimate mystery of life! Also Brendan Whyte from around the
                  > > > Globe may
                  > > > > have an answer...?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Wolfgang
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                • Lowell G. McManus
                  To the Soviets, a Czechoslovak outlets to the sea meant contact and trade with the West. It was better for the Soviets to keep Czechoslovakia dependent on
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 23, 2005
                    To the Soviets, a Czechoslovak outlets to the sea meant contact and trade with
                    the West. It was better for the Soviets to keep Czechoslovakia dependent on
                    them in those regards. It was in the geopolitical interest of the British and
                    West Germans, however, to allow Czechoslovakia such contacts.

                    Lowell G. McManus
                    Leesville, Louisiana, USA


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "L. A. Nadybal" <lnadybal@...>
                    To: <borderpoint@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 7:58 PM
                    Subject: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour


                    I contacted the city government in Stettin some time back - the
                    historical office said there is no record of any city liability to
                    support a leased territory, for as long as the town has been Polish.
                    It's odd that the Hamburg arrangement survived (or was revived after
                    the fall of the 3rd reich) through the occupation (British Zone) and
                    to the BRD as a successor state, and the Stettin one didn't (under
                    Russian domination affer the war on behalf of a "brotherly" state).
                    Knowing the Russians like I don't, they probably felt no obligation to
                    a subjugated Czech state, anyway.
                    LN

                    --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                    <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Szczecin in Czech would read S?é?in or S?e?ín - if i'm not mistaken. To
                    > google for S?é?in? Doesn't make much sense because I simpleton do
                    not know
                    > Czech either. Actually it appears from Len's old posting that the
                    matter was
                    > entirely German - Czech. We should rather find the old Buergermeister of
                    > Stettin and ask him. More precisely, it must have been an affair
                    that the
                    > Weimar Republic - 1919 - 1932 - had to deal with; the Nazis would
                    have ended
                    > the exclave abruptly, as they have done in the Hamburg case.
                    >
                    > So I google for "Stettin" and "tschechisch": 837 hits - too many. And
                    > "Stettin", "tschechisch" and "Exklave" or "Enklave": still 123 hits. All
                    > seem to talk about Kaliningrad (as an enclave) and its significance as a
                    > harbour, similar to Stettin. Fuck.
                    >
                    > Wolfgang
                    >
                    > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                    > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                    > Auftrag von jimvandura
                    > Gesendet: Freitag, 23. Dezember 2005 00:33
                    > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                    >
                    >
                    > You're welcome. I love this bogus stuff. And I'm sure there's no
                    > etymological connection
                    > either, nor hardly a trace of anything Czech in Szczechin for that
                    matter,
                    > except when so
                    > zanily missspelled (1640 times by Google count). Jv
                    >
                    > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                    <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Thank you, Jimi. Very helpful, indeed. I consulted in the meantime the
                    > forum
                    > > http://www.megagratis.de/jump.php?id=2331 and
                    http://www.forumromanum.de
                    > > respectively, which say their members can translate Polish texts
                    for free.
                    > I
                    > > gave them the 2 links that Peter provided, told them what to focus
                    on, and
                    > > will post the outcome, if any.
                    > >
                    > > Wolfgang
                    > >
                    > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                    > > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                    > > Auftrag von jimvandura
                    > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 20:49
                    > > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hi! A third alternative, if not a self-contradiction too, may be:
                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/8623
                    > > -- Jimi
                    > >
                    > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                    > <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > That was extremely helpful, Peter. Thank you very much!
                    > > >
                    > > > The interesting spots in the text are cleary visible, and leave
                    me only
                    > > with
                    > > > the alternative to either finally attend a quick course in
                    Polish or to
                    > > find
                    > > > a mild-hearted fellow from across the Oder to read this to me.
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks again,
                    > > >
                    > > > Wolfgang
                    > > >
                    > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                    > > > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                    > > > Auftrag von Peter Smaardijk
                    > > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 14:00
                    > > > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > I haven't had the time to read it yet, but it looks promising -
                    > > > hopefully one of our Poles can have a look:
                    > > >
                    > > > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
                    > > >
                    op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=496&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
                    > > >
                    > > > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
                    > > >
                    op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=497&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
                    > > >
                    > > > Peter
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                    > > > <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The exclave(s) that the Czech Republic holds in Hamburg harbour
                    > > > are probably
                    > > > > known to most of you - according to state law it (they) is (are)
                    > > > only
                    > > > > extra-territorial subjects on German soil.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > But how about the exclave in Stettin harbour that the young
                    > > > Czechoslovakia
                    > > > > was granted as per the Versailles Treaty in 1919? It never made
                    > > > great noise.
                    > > > > Did it ever exist? And if so, where is it located in today's
                    > > > Szczecin? And
                    > > > > which status did it have - and may still have?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Questions, that move the World! Thank you, my Polish and Czech
                    > > > friends in
                    > > > > particular, for bringing some light into the darkness that has
                    > > > fallen over
                    > > > > that ultimate mystery of life! Also Brendan Whyte from around the
                    > > > Globe may
                    > > > > have an answer...?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Wolfgang
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >








                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • Wolfgang Schaub
                    No surprise to me that the Hamburg arrangement was revived after the fall of the 3rd Reich. First, the exclave means income to the city of Hamburg - the Czechs
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 24, 2005
                      No surprise to me that the Hamburg arrangement was revived after the fall of
                      the 3rd Reich. First, the exclave means income to the city of Hamburg - the
                      Czechs have to pay an annual lease to the mayor (indicating that the exclave
                      is not fully Czech); second, and maybe more important, Germany has not been
                      sovereign for a while - at minimum between 1945 and 1949 - so that
                      everything was fixed by the allies, and much in a sense of making sure the
                      newly emerging Federal Republic would not become too strong, or, in other
                      words, political correctness, thus demonstrating the left-over Nazis what
                      "proper" behavior is. Third, the shippability (does that word exist?) of the
                      Oder ended/began in 1948 just where it crossed the border into an area that
                      was after the Potsdam accord only "temporarily under Polish administration",
                      in other words of unclear political future; hence, the Stettin harbour was
                      of no or little significance to the Czechs as compared with Hamburg. The
                      Elbe/Labe, in contrast, could be navigated up to where the Moldau entered
                      in those times, meaning that Czech ships of some size could communicate
                      between Hamburg and Czechoslovakia much better than on the Oder.
                      The worst that can happen to Hamburg is that the Czechs abandon the exclave
                      and refuse paying their lease.
                      My interest in this has to do with the question whether the Czechoslovakian
                      government was irrational enough in 1920 to implement a paragraph of the
                      Versailles treaty that had been written at a time prior to the foundation of
                      Czechoslovakia itself, and against all economical wisdom.

                      Wolfgang

                      -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                      Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                      Auftrag von L. A. Nadybal
                      Gesendet: Samstag, 24. Dezember 2005 02:59
                      An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                      Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour


                      I contacted the city government in Stettin some time back - the
                      historical office said there is no record of any city liability to
                      support a leased territory, for as long as the town has been Polish.
                      It's odd that the Hamburg arrangement survived (or was revived after
                      the fall of the 3rd reich) through the occupation (British Zone) and
                      to the BRD as a successor state, and the Stettin one didn't (under
                      Russian domination affer the war on behalf of a "brotherly" state).
                      Knowing the Russians like I don't, they probably felt no obligation to
                      a subjugated Czech state, anyway.
                      LN

                      --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                      <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Szczecin in Czech would read Š?é?in or Š?e?ín - if i'm not mistaken. To
                      > google for Š?é?in? Doesn't make much sense because I simpleton do
                      not know
                      > Czech either. Actually it appears from Len's old posting that the
                      matter was
                      > entirely German - Czech. We should rather find the old Buergermeister of
                      > Stettin and ask him. More precisely, it must have been an affair
                      that the
                      > Weimar Republic - 1919 - 1932 - had to deal with; the Nazis would
                      have ended
                      > the exclave abruptly, as they have done in the Hamburg case.
                      >
                      > So I google for "Stettin" and "tschechisch": 837 hits - too many. And
                      > "Stettin", "tschechisch" and "Exklave" or "Enklave": still 123 hits. All
                      > seem to talk about Kaliningrad (as an enclave) and its significance as a
                      > harbour, similar to Stettin. Fuck.
                      >
                      > Wolfgang
                      >
                      > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                      > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                      > Auftrag von jimvandura
                      > Gesendet: Freitag, 23. Dezember 2005 00:33
                      > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                      > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                      >
                      >
                      > You're welcome. I love this bogus stuff. And I'm sure there's no
                      > etymological connection
                      > either, nor hardly a trace of anything Czech in Szczechin for that
                      matter,
                      > except when so
                      > zanily missspelled (1640 times by Google count). Jv
                      >
                      > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                      <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Thank you, Jimi. Very helpful, indeed. I consulted in the meantime the
                      > forum
                      > > http://www.megagratis.de/jump.php?id=2331 and
                      http://www.forumromanum.de
                      > > respectively, which say their members can translate Polish texts
                      for free.
                      > I
                      > > gave them the 2 links that Peter provided, told them what to focus
                      on, and
                      > > will post the outcome, if any.
                      > >
                      > > Wolfgang
                      > >
                      > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                      > > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                      > > Auftrag von jimvandura
                      > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 20:49
                      > > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hi! A third alternative, if not a self-contradiction too, may be:
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/8623
                      > > -- Jimi
                      > >
                      > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                      > <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > That was extremely helpful, Peter. Thank you very much!
                      > > >
                      > > > The interesting spots in the text are cleary visible, and leave
                      me only
                      > > with
                      > > > the alternative to either finally attend a quick course in
                      Polish or to
                      > > find
                      > > > a mild-hearted fellow from across the Oder to read this to me.
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks again,
                      > > >
                      > > > Wolfgang
                      > > >
                      > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                      > > > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                      > > > Auftrag von Peter Smaardijk
                      > > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 14:00
                      > > > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > I haven't had the time to read it yet, but it looks promising -
                      > > > hopefully one of our Poles can have a look:
                      > > >
                      > > > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
                      > > >
                      op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=496&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
                      > > >
                      > > > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
                      > > >
                      op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=497&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
                      > > >
                      > > > Peter
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                      > > > <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > The exclave(s) that the Czech Republic holds in Hamburg harbour
                      > > > are probably
                      > > > > known to most of you - according to state law it (they) is (are)
                      > > > only
                      > > > > extra-territorial subjects on German soil.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > But how about the exclave in Stettin harbour that the young
                      > > > Czechoslovakia
                      > > > > was granted as per the Versailles Treaty in 1919? It never made
                      > > > great noise.
                      > > > > Did it ever exist? And if so, where is it located in today's
                      > > > Szczecin? And
                      > > > > which status did it have - and may still have?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Questions, that move the World! Thank you, my Polish and Czech
                      > > > friends in
                      > > > > particular, for bringing some light into the darkness that has
                      > > > fallen over
                      > > > > that ultimate mystery of life! Also Brendan Whyte from around the
                      > > > Globe may
                      > > > > have an answer...?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Wolfgang
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >








                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • Barry Arnold
                      Merry Christmas to you all and perhaps especially to the villagers of Nagyszelmenc (Slovakia) and Kisszelmenc (Ukraine) where at last the border that has
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 24, 2005
                        Merry Christmas to you all and perhaps especially to the villagers of
                        Nagyszelmenc (Slovakia) and Kisszelmenc (Ukraine) where at last the border
                        that has divided their village has now been opened.

                        http://uk.news.yahoo.com/24122005/80/villagers-reunited-slovak-ukraine-border-crossing.htm

                        Barry

                        _________________________________________________________________
                        Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN Messenger
                        7.5 today! http://messenger.msn.co.uk
                      • L. A. Nadybal
                        You wrote: My interest in this has to do with the question whether the Czechoslovakian government was irrational enough in 1920 to implement a paragraph of
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 24, 2005
                          You wrote: "My interest in this has to do with the question whether
                          the Czechoslovakian government was irrational enough in 1920 to
                          implement a paragraph of the Versailles treaty that had been written
                          at a time prior to the foundation of Czechoslovakia itself, and
                          against all economical wisdom."

                          Why would it have been irrational?
                          I'm curious as to which state it was that the Versaille treaty
                          intended the harbor in Stettin to benefit, if the Czech state wasn't
                          yet in existence.

                          The lease period in Hamburg is coming to an end in the next couple of
                          years, if the Czechs haven't given it up already, given the bankruptcy
                          of the operating company and the unified state of affairs between the
                          host and the lessor. The areas was never part of CZ - and "rent" is a
                          common feature of leased areas. Titular sovereignty always rests with
                          the lessee unless annexation occurs. Guantanamo is Cuban land and the
                          US pays "rent". The US acts "as though it were the sovereign", not
                          "as the sovereign".

                          Regards
                          Frohe Weihnachten
                          Len
                        • Wolfgang Schaub
                          Why would it have been irrational? Because in Stettin it did not serve a tangible purpose other than humiliating Germany, in particular not an economic
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 24, 2005
                            "Why would it have been irrational?" Because in Stettin it did not serve a
                            tangible purpose other than humiliating Germany, in particular not an
                            economic purpose, except if the Czechs would have had to pay a rent like
                            they do in Hamburg. There was certainly no benefit for Stettin intended
                            (knowing the intentions of the allies when putting together the Versailles
                            Treaty).

                            I heard the Hamburgians would not like to see the Czechs go - they would
                            lose a few thousand Euros annually.

                            Shubh Naya Baras,
                            Wolfgang

                            -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                            Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                            Auftrag von L. A. Nadybal
                            Gesendet: Samstag, 24. Dezember 2005 15:29
                            An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                            Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour


                            You wrote: "My interest in this has to do with the question whether
                            the Czechoslovakian government was irrational enough in 1920 to
                            implement a paragraph of the Versailles treaty that had been written
                            at a time prior to the foundation of Czechoslovakia itself, and
                            against all economical wisdom."

                            Why would it have been irrational?
                            I'm curious as to which state it was that the Versaille treaty
                            intended the harbor in Stettin to benefit, if the Czech state wasn't
                            yet in existence.

                            The lease period in Hamburg is coming to an end in the next couple of
                            years, if the Czechs haven't given it up already, given the bankruptcy
                            of the operating company and the unified state of affairs between the
                            host and the lessor. The areas was never part of CZ - and "rent" is a
                            common feature of leased areas. Titular sovereignty always rests with
                            the lessee unless annexation occurs. Guantanamo is Cuban land and the
                            US pays "rent". The US acts "as though it were the sovereign", not
                            "as the sovereign".

                            Regards
                            Frohe Weihnachten
                            Len








                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • Doug Murray
                            Barry -- Thanks for passing on the story. The link works if you add a lower case L to the address. Or use this one: http://tinyurl.com/cllzl Here s more
                            Message 13 of 23 , Dec 24, 2005
                              Merry Christmas to you all and perhaps especially to the villagers of
                              Nagyszelmenc (Slovakia) and Kisszelmenc (Ukraine) where at last the border
                              that has divided their village has now been opened.

                              http://uk.news.yahoo.com/24122005/80/villagers-reunited-slovak-ukraine-border-crossing.htm

                              Barry

                              _________________________________________________________________
                              Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN Messenger
                              7.5 today! http://messenger.msn.co.uk

                            • Doug Murray
                              As promised, my images from Velke Slemence, Slovakia: http://www.flickr.com/photos/borderfilms/sets/1648077/ Cheers! Doug ... Doug Murray Productions/Border
                              Message 14 of 23 , Dec 24, 2005

                                Barry -- Thanks for passing on the story.  The link works if you add a lower case L to the address.  Or use this one: http://tinyurl.com/cllzl

                                Here's more background: http://tinyurl.com/8so7q

                                And another story (in German) with a 5 minute VIDEO: http://tinyurl.com/drseb

                                The GEEBE visited the VELKE SLEMENCE, Slovakia in 2003. 

                                Harry ten Veen's images: http://home.planet.nl/~veenhh/borderland/europa/sk-ua.htm

                                And I will dig out mine...

                                All the best!

                                Doug

                                On Saturday, December 24, 2005, at 05:47AM, Barry Arnold <barry_432@...> wrote:

                                >
                                ><<Original Attached>>


                                Doug Murray Productions/Border Films
                                sounds+images+words
                                Vancouver, BC Canada
                                +1.604.728.1407

                                IMAGES: http://www.flickr.com/photos/borderfilms/
                              • Barry Arnold
                                Thanks Doug for the additional information and apologies for the faulty link. A fascinating situation with the border representing the division between
                                Message 15 of 23 , Dec 24, 2005
                                  Thanks Doug for the additional information and apologies for the faulty
                                  link. A fascinating situation with the border representing the division
                                  between diiferent countries at different times. The GEEBE visit must have
                                  been great!!

                                  Take care & happy holidays. Love to see your photos

                                  Barry


                                  >From: Doug Murray <doug@...>
                                  >Reply-To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                  >To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                  >Subject: Re: [borderpoint] VELKE SLEMENCE, Slovakia was (unknown)
                                  >Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 07:05:57 -0800
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Barry -- Thanks for passing on the story.� The link works if you add a
                                  >lower case L to the address.� Or use this one: http://tinyurl.com/cllzl
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Here's more background: http://tinyurl.com/8so7q
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >And another story (in German) with a 5 minute VIDEO:
                                  >http://tinyurl.com/drseb
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >The GEEBE visited the VELKE SLEMENCE, Slovakia in 2003.�
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Harry ten Veen's images:
                                  >http://home.planet.nl/~veenhh/borderland/europa/sk-ua.htm
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >And I will dig out mine...
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >All the best!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Doug
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >On Saturday, December 24, 2005, at 05:47AM, Barry Arnold
                                  ><barry_432@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > ><<Original Attached>>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Doug Murray Productions/Border Films
                                  >
                                  >sounds+images+words
                                  >
                                  >Vancouver, BC Canada
                                  >
                                  >+1.604.728.1407
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >IMAGES: http://www.flickr.com/photos/borderfilms/
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                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Merry Christmas to you all and perhaps especially to the villagers of
                                  >
                                  >Nagyszelmenc (Slovakia) and Kisszelmenc (Ukraine) where at last the border
                                  >
                                  >that has divided their village has now been opened.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >http://uk.news.yahoo.com/24122005/80/villagers-reunited-slovak-ukraine-border-crossing.htm
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Barry
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >_________________________________________________________________
                                  >
                                  >Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN Messenger
                                  >
                                  >7.5 today! http://messenger.msn.co.uk
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                                • Hugh Wallis
                                  According to http://www.ukremb.org.uk/eng/cvs/info/visas.html and other sites I have visited, visitors from EU countries to the Ukraine have not required visas
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Dec 24, 2005
                                    According to http://www.ukremb.org.uk/eng/cvs/info/visas.html and other
                                    sites I have visited, visitors from EU countries to the Ukraine have not
                                    required visas since 1st September 2005 and so the restrictions seem to have
                                    been slowly lifting during the course of this year. I assume that theis
                                    means that the residents on the Slovakian side of the village have found it
                                    easier since then (albeit still a 30km round trip) than as described in the
                                    articles. It seems that the Eurovision Song Contest was partly to thank for
                                    this since Ukraine had wanted to facilitate travel in preparation for this
                                    event. Strange what strange events can influence these things.

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    Behalf Of Barry Arnold
                                    Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 1:17 PM
                                    To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [borderpoint] VELKE SLEMENCE - United for Christmas

                                    Thanks Doug for the additional information and apologies for the faulty
                                    link. A fascinating situation with the border representing the division
                                    between diiferent countries at different times. The GEEBE visit must have
                                    been great!!

                                    Take care & happy holidays. Love to see your photos

                                    Barry


                                    >From: Doug Murray <doug@...>
                                    >Reply-To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                    >To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                    >Subject: Re: [borderpoint] VELKE SLEMENCE, Slovakia was (unknown)
                                    >Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 07:05:57 -0800
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Barry -- Thanks for passing on the story.  The link works if you add a
                                    >lower case L to the address.  Or use this one: http://tinyurl.com/cllzl
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Here's more background: http://tinyurl.com/8so7q
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >And another story (in German) with a 5 minute VIDEO:
                                    >http://tinyurl.com/drseb
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >The GEEBE visited the VELKE SLEMENCE, Slovakia in 2003. 
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Harry ten Veen's images:
                                    >http://home.planet.nl/~veenhh/borderland/europa/sk-ua.htm
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >And I will dig out mine...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >All the best!
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Doug
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >On Saturday, December 24, 2005, at 05:47AM, Barry Arnold
                                    ><barry_432@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > ><<Original Attached>>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Doug Murray Productions/Border Films
                                    >
                                    >sounds+images+words
                                    >
                                    >Vancouver, BC Canada
                                    >
                                    >+1.604.728.1407
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >IMAGES: http://www.flickr.com/photos/borderfilms/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >  Visit your group "borderpoint" on the web.

                                    >  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    borderpoint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                    >  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                    >
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                                    >


                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Merry Christmas to you all and perhaps especially to the villagers of
                                    >
                                    >Nagyszelmenc (Slovakia) and Kisszelmenc (Ukraine) where at last the border
                                    >
                                    >that has divided their village has now been opened.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >http://uk.news.yahoo.com/24122005/80/villagers-reunited-slovak-ukraine-bord
                                    er-crossing.htm
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Barry
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >_________________________________________________________________
                                    >
                                    >Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN Messenger
                                    >
                                    >7.5 today! http://messenger.msn.co.uk
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  • L. A. Nadybal
                                    Well, that means then, that the Hamburg leased area would have fallen prey at some point in the late 20s or early thirties to the political powers that
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Dec 24, 2005
                                      Well, that means then, that the Hamburg leased area would have fallen
                                      prey at some point in the late 20s or early thirties to the political
                                      powers that disregarded the treaty, just like Stettin. Why would
                                      their be a difference in treatment between them. At some point, then,
                                      there must be period in Hamburg's history after 1945 where the lease
                                      was resurrected. But we have no evidence of a lapse. If there was no
                                      lapse, then there was a reason to keep the lease alive (thus
                                      recognizing the provision in Versailles), and we then have a reverse
                                      differentiation in treatment. If keeping them was irrational because
                                      they were meant to be an embarrassment, then why did Hamburg's area
                                      stay leased throughout (if it did)? If there was a lapse, and W
                                      Germany as successor resurrected Hamburg's lease, then why didn't
                                      Poland, as a successor in Stettin, not honor the Czech's former treaty
                                      rights, too?
                                      Len


                                      --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                                      <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > "Why would it have been irrational?" Because in Stettin it did not
                                      serve a
                                      > tangible purpose other than humiliating Germany, in particular not an
                                      > economic purpose, except if the Czechs would have had to pay a rent like
                                      > they do in Hamburg. There was certainly no benefit for Stettin intended
                                      > (knowing the intentions of the allies when putting together the
                                      Versailles
                                      > Treaty).
                                      >
                                      > I heard the Hamburgians would not like to see the Czechs go - they would
                                      > lose a few thousand Euros annually.
                                      >
                                      > Shubh Naya Baras,
                                      > Wolfgang
                                      >
                                      > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                                      > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                                      > Auftrag von L. A. Nadybal
                                      > Gesendet: Samstag, 24. Dezember 2005 15:29
                                      > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > You wrote: "My interest in this has to do with the question whether
                                      > the Czechoslovakian government was irrational enough in 1920 to
                                      > implement a paragraph of the Versailles treaty that had been written
                                      > at a time prior to the foundation of Czechoslovakia itself, and
                                      > against all economical wisdom."
                                      >
                                      > Why would it have been irrational?
                                      > I'm curious as to which state it was that the Versaille treaty
                                      > intended the harbor in Stettin to benefit, if the Czech state wasn't
                                      > yet in existence.
                                      >
                                      > The lease period in Hamburg is coming to an end in the next couple of
                                      > years, if the Czechs haven't given it up already, given the bankruptcy
                                      > of the operating company and the unified state of affairs between the
                                      > host and the lessor. The areas was never part of CZ - and "rent" is a
                                      > common feature of leased areas. Titular sovereignty always rests with
                                      > the lessee unless annexation occurs. Guantanamo is Cuban land and the
                                      > US pays "rent". The US acts "as though it were the sovereign", not
                                      > "as the sovereign".
                                      >
                                      > Regards
                                      > Frohe Weihnachten
                                      > Len
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                    • Wolfgang Schaub
                                      Hamburg: As the lease was arranged only in 1928 the treaty may be kept alive until 2027. Or: The lease contract between Hamburg and Czechoslovakia is of 2nd
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Dec 24, 2005
                                        Hamburg: As the lease was arranged only in 1928 the treaty may be kept alive
                                        until 2027. Or: The lease contract between Hamburg and Czechoslovakia is of
                                        2nd November 1929 - the lease may then be kept alive until 2028. A matter
                                        for lawyers to decide which dates apply. The contract says it has to be
                                        "revised" every 10 years, as far as one of the partners wants to revise it.
                                        The first payment was 2 Reichsmark per square metre per year. The Czechs
                                        have missed the chance to step out in 1998/1999, and so have to pay rent at
                                        least until 2008/2009, although CSPL went bankrupt in April 2001.

                                        Since Czechoslovakia ceased to exist in 1939 there was, obviously, no
                                        exclave anymore. The company operating the exclave was re-named
                                        Böhmisch-Mährische Elbeschiffahrtsaktiengesellschaft on April 7, 1939, and
                                        for 6 years there were only Germans in Hamburg harbour. In May 1945 the
                                        company fell back to the Czechs and was nationalized on 22 August 1945.
                                        Insofar we deal here with simple civil law, not with state law (Personal
                                        information from Hamburg's government). Probably the Czechs saw some use in
                                        resurrecting the lease agreement.

                                        Stettin: Any corresponding development, as you found out yourself, would
                                        have involved Czechs and Poles after WWII. Either the Czechs had lost
                                        interest in the meantime, or the Poles did not care (because they had more
                                        important things to do), or the Russians thought this was too complicated,
                                        or among socialist countries there was no need for international treaties
                                        (all being "friends" anyway), or all 4 reasons may apply - all only if there
                                        had been an exclave before at all. The word "irrational" only refers to
                                        Stettin, as the exclave, if it ever existed, would not have made sense
                                        economically right from start.

                                        Also note there is a Czech-FR Germany treaty of 26 January 1988 regulating
                                        traffic on the Elbe. No mentioning therein of a special situation in Hamburg
                                        harbour. Only in article 3, § 3, the right is ceded to Czechoslovakia to
                                        allocate loads in Hamburg to German or Czech carriers, respectively, in a
                                        manner different from the usual 50/50 partition, so that CSPL would earn a
                                        bit more.

                                        Wolfgang

                                        -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                                        Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                                        Auftrag von L. A. Nadybal
                                        Gesendet: Samstag, 24. Dezember 2005 21:48
                                        An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                        Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour


                                        Well, that means then, that the Hamburg leased area would have fallen
                                        prey at some point in the late 20s or early thirties to the political
                                        powers that disregarded the treaty, just like Stettin. Why would
                                        their be a difference in treatment between them. At some point, then,
                                        there must be period in Hamburg's history after 1945 where the lease
                                        was resurrected. But we have no evidence of a lapse. If there was no
                                        lapse, then there was a reason to keep the lease alive (thus
                                        recognizing the provision in Versailles), and we then have a reverse
                                        differentiation in treatment. If keeping them was irrational because
                                        they were meant to be an embarrassment, then why did Hamburg's area
                                        stay leased throughout (if it did)? If there was a lapse, and W
                                        Germany as successor resurrected Hamburg's lease, then why didn't
                                        Poland, as a successor in Stettin, not honor the Czech's former treaty
                                        rights, too?
                                        Len


                                        --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                                        <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > "Why would it have been irrational?" Because in Stettin it did not
                                        serve a
                                        > tangible purpose other than humiliating Germany, in particular not an
                                        > economic purpose, except if the Czechs would have had to pay a rent like
                                        > they do in Hamburg. There was certainly no benefit for Stettin intended
                                        > (knowing the intentions of the allies when putting together the
                                        Versailles
                                        > Treaty).
                                        >
                                        > I heard the Hamburgians would not like to see the Czechs go - they would
                                        > lose a few thousand Euros annually.
                                        >
                                        > Shubh Naya Baras,
                                        > Wolfgang
                                        >
                                        > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                                        > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                                        > Auftrag von L. A. Nadybal
                                        > Gesendet: Samstag, 24. Dezember 2005 15:29
                                        > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > You wrote: "My interest in this has to do with the question whether
                                        > the Czechoslovakian government was irrational enough in 1920 to
                                        > implement a paragraph of the Versailles treaty that had been written
                                        > at a time prior to the foundation of Czechoslovakia itself, and
                                        > against all economical wisdom."
                                        >
                                        > Why would it have been irrational?
                                        > I'm curious as to which state it was that the Versaille treaty
                                        > intended the harbor in Stettin to benefit, if the Czech state wasn't
                                        > yet in existence.
                                        >
                                        > The lease period in Hamburg is coming to an end in the next couple of
                                        > years, if the Czechs haven't given it up already, given the bankruptcy
                                        > of the operating company and the unified state of affairs between the
                                        > host and the lessor. The areas was never part of CZ - and "rent" is a
                                        > common feature of leased areas. Titular sovereignty always rests with
                                        > the lessee unless annexation occurs. Guantanamo is Cuban land and the
                                        > US pays "rent". The US acts "as though it were the sovereign", not
                                        > "as the sovereign".
                                        >
                                        > Regards
                                        > Frohe Weihnachten
                                        > Len
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >








                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      • L. A. Nadybal
                                        Greetings Wolfgang, Thanks for the details - most of which were new to me. My first thought is that we need to look into the lawyer s area to understand what s
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Dec 25, 2005
                                          Greetings Wolfgang,
                                          Thanks for the details - most of which were new to me.
                                          My first thought is that we need to look into the lawyer's area to
                                          understand what's going on. I think there is an issue with treaty vs.
                                          contract here.

                                          The Versailles treaty seems to start the lease the moment the Germans
                                          acceded to it (1919) and it ends it after 99 years. The "contract"
                                          (if it was between the two states and not involve the operating
                                          company - state owned or not) would seem to be more like a
                                          "zwischenstaatlichen durchführunsvereinbarung". The treaty says it
                                          will operate using the treaty provisions applicable to Freizonen. The
                                          10 year provision applies only, at most, to the

                                          Begrenzung,
                                          Einrichtung,
                                          Art der Ausnutzung
                                          Bedingungen für Verwendung (inkl Pachtpreis)

                                          to be worked out by a three person commission (D-CZ-GB).

                                          Then, the treaty says "Diese Bedingungen [not the lease itself]
                                          koennen [interesting choice of word] alle zehn Jahren in der gleichen
                                          Weise [als wass?] revidiert werden". So, Pachtende itself isn't
                                          negotiable, it seems - 99 years of use have to elapse, dann ist
                                          Schluß. The treaty can be revised or succeeded by a new treaty
                                          extending the 99 years, and maybe the 99 years are interrupted because
                                          of the lapses, how could one know??

                                          In the 99 years, then comes the contract between the CZ government and
                                          it's company - but that is mostly internal not involving D.

                                          I'd be interested in seeing the agreement texts related to this.
                                          Maybe someday when I locate my railway treaty copy, we can do a trade
                                          deal. Do you have a map or description of the "Begrenzung"? I have
                                          two conflicting descriptions of it.

                                          More later.
                                          All the best
                                          LN






                                          --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                                          <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hamburg: As the lease was arranged only in 1928 the treaty may be
                                          kept alive until 2027. Or: The lease contract between Hamburg and
                                          Czechoslovakia is of 2nd November 1929 - the lease may then be kept
                                          alive until 2028.
                                        • Wolfgang Schaub
                                          You make good points, Len. Exactly those are the salient issues (which I did not mention so that the matter does not get over-complicated). There is another
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Dec 25, 2005
                                            You make good points, Len. Exactly those are the salient issues (which I did
                                            not mention so that the matter does not get over-complicated).

                                            There is another one: Would the Versailles Treaty still be valid today?
                                            (after so much hassle in between) In other words, would GB stand up and
                                            claim the lease has to be "executed" till the 99 years are over, in case CZ
                                            and D agree to silently forget the matter?

                                            For me the interesting thing is still Szczecin. So far nobody has dared
                                            translating the Polish text, but sooner or later I'll catch a Pole on the
                                            street and ask him to do the job for me against a bottle of wine.

                                            I had forgotten another reason why the Szczecin enclave has not been
                                            resurrected (in case it ever existed): it was a matter between CZ and D;
                                            what the heck have the Poles to do with it? So if CZ wants it resurrected
                                            the Poles simply say no, and that's it.

                                            I saw it coming: You give me the Vennbahn treaty, I give you the Hamburg
                                            stuff. Fair deal.

                                            No, I don't have a Beschreibung of the Begrenzungen, but that is a matter
                                            you may ask the Hamburg Katasteramt to provide (?). You should also know
                                            there are/were 2 enclaves in Hamburg, one at Saalehafen, the other (smaller
                                            one) at Peutehafen. The size has been mentioned in newspapers as "30,000"
                                            sq.m., but it is not clear whether this refers to the Saalehafen enclave or
                                            to both together. The one at Saalehafen carries the house number 40, if I
                                            remember correctly.

                                            (When I was there last, some years ago, the Czech manager - or better:
                                            "director" - said: "No problem, come in, we are packing and will be gone in
                                            a few days, you can do here whatever you like". Nearby, in the oily waters
                                            of the harbour, lay the party boat "Prague" - reminiscence of better days)

                                            Wolfgang

                                            -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                                            Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                                            Auftrag von L. A. Nadybal
                                            Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. Dezember 2005 16:07
                                            An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                            Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour


                                            Greetings Wolfgang,
                                            Thanks for the details - most of which were new to me.
                                            My first thought is that we need to look into the lawyer's area to
                                            understand what's going on. I think there is an issue with treaty vs.
                                            contract here.

                                            The Versailles treaty seems to start the lease the moment the Germans
                                            acceded to it (1919) and it ends it after 99 years. The "contract"
                                            (if it was between the two states and not involve the operating
                                            company - state owned or not) would seem to be more like a
                                            "zwischenstaatlichen durchführunsvereinbarung". The treaty says it
                                            will operate using the treaty provisions applicable to Freizonen. The
                                            10 year provision applies only, at most, to the

                                            Begrenzung,
                                            Einrichtung,
                                            Art der Ausnutzung
                                            Bedingungen für Verwendung (inkl Pachtpreis)

                                            to be worked out by a three person commission (D-CZ-GB).

                                            Then, the treaty says "Diese Bedingungen [not the lease itself]
                                            koennen [interesting choice of word] alle zehn Jahren in der gleichen
                                            Weise [als wass?] revidiert werden". So, Pachtende itself isn't
                                            negotiable, it seems - 99 years of use have to elapse, dann ist
                                            Schluß. The treaty can be revised or succeeded by a new treaty
                                            extending the 99 years, and maybe the 99 years are interrupted because
                                            of the lapses, how could one know??

                                            In the 99 years, then comes the contract between the CZ government and
                                            it's company - but that is mostly internal not involving D.

                                            I'd be interested in seeing the agreement texts related to this.
                                            Maybe someday when I locate my railway treaty copy, we can do a trade
                                            deal. Do you have a map or description of the "Begrenzung"? I have
                                            two conflicting descriptions of it.

                                            More later.
                                            All the best
                                            LN






                                            --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                                            <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hamburg: As the lease was arranged only in 1928 the treaty may be
                                            kept alive until 2027. Or: The lease contract between Hamburg and
                                            Czechoslovakia is of 2nd November 1929 - the lease may then be kept
                                            alive until 2028.







                                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          • Pepijn Hendriks
                                            Let me put in my bit as well. Back in I said that I couldn t find out much about the arrangements in
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Dec 27, 2005
                                              Let me put in my bit as well. Back in
                                              <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/borderpoint/message/123> I said that I
                                              couldn't find out much about the arrangements in Szczecin.

                                              From what I've learnt since:
                                              * Czechoslovakia gave up the rights to their territory in Szczecin in
                                              1956. This refers to the Transport Agreement (called 'Układ
                                              komunikacyjny' in Polish, or 'Dopravní dohoda' in Czech) signed on 13
                                              January 1956 in Prague.
                                              * The Polish version of this agreement can be found at
                                              <http://www.park.pl/prawo/1950-1980/du195700090035.html>; the Czech
                                              version is at
                                              <http://www.mdcr.cz/NR/rdonlyres/8D519E7F-42FF-4A41-A6AD-6753634A5F73/0/v741956.rtf>.

                                              * Unfortunately, neither the Polish nor the Czech versions include all
                                              annexes.
                                              * The Czech version includes a list of treaties which it annuls. Among
                                              those is an earlier agreement, from 15 July 1949, concerning the lease
                                              of areas in the port of Szczecin. I have not been able to find this
                                              document, although from the document that Peter Smaardijk referred to
                                              one can infer that the actual lease takes the form of a contract between
                                              the Szczecin Port Authority and a Czech company called the
                                              Czechoslovak Transport Corporation ('Czechosłowackie Spedycyjne
                                              Towarzystwo Akcyjne' in Polish).
                                              * The same document mentions that another annex to the 1956 agreement
                                              regulated the "assumption of the Czechoslovak area by the Board of the
                                              Port of Szczecin".

                                              For more details about the arrangements in Hamburg (including the
                                              surface area of the lots) please refer to
                                              <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/borderpoint/message/124>.

                                              -Pepijn

                                              > ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
                                              > Van: "Wolfgang Schaub" <Wolfgang.Schaub@...>
                                              > Aan: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Datum: zondag 25 december 2005 17:57:26
                                              > Onderwerp: AW: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                                              >
                                              > You make good points, Len. Exactly those are the salient issues (which I did
                                              > not mention so that the matter does not get over-complicated).
                                              >
                                              > There is another one: Would the Versailles Treaty still be valid today?
                                              > (after so much hassle in between) In other words, would GB stand up and
                                              > claim the lease has to be "executed" till the 99 years are over, in case CZ
                                              > and D agree to silently forget the matter?
                                              >
                                              > For me the interesting thing is still Szczecin. So far nobody has dared
                                              > translating the Polish text, but sooner or later I'll catch a Pole on the
                                              > street and ask him to do the job for me against a bottle of wine.
                                              >
                                              > I had forgotten another reason why the Szczecin enclave has not been
                                              > resurrected (in case it ever existed): it was a matter between CZ and D;
                                              > what the heck have the Poles to do with it? So if CZ wants it resurrected
                                              > the Poles simply say no, and that's it.
                                              >
                                              > I saw it coming: You give me the Vennbahn treaty, I give you the Hamburg
                                              > stuff. Fair deal.
                                              >
                                              > No, I don't have a Beschreibung of the Begrenzungen, but that is a matter
                                              > you may ask the Hamburg Katasteramt to provide (?). You should also know
                                              > there are/were 2 enclaves in Hamburg, one at Saalehafen, the other (smaller
                                              > one) at Peutehafen. The size has been mentioned in newspapers as "30,000"
                                              > sq.m., but it is not clear whether this refers to the Saalehafen enclave or
                                              > to both together. The one at Saalehafen carries the house number 40, if I
                                              > remember correctly.
                                              >
                                              > (When I was there last, some years ago, the Czech manager - or better:
                                              > "director" - said: "No problem, come in, we are packing and will be gone in
                                              > a few days, you can do here whatever you like". Nearby, in the oily waters
                                              > of the harbour, lay the party boat "Prague" - reminiscence of better days)
                                              >
                                              > Wolfgang
                                            • Wolfgang Schaub
                                              Excellent! Many thanks indeed, Pepijn. Still I promise to deliver the full text of http://sedina.pl/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=496&mode=
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Dec 27, 2005
                                                Excellent! Many thanks indeed, Pepijn.

                                                Still I promise to deliver the full text of
                                                http://sedina.pl/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=496&mode=
                                                thread&order=0&thold=0 and
                                                http://sedina.pl/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=497&mode=
                                                thread&order=0&thold=0 whenever I get it translated by a "wilful" Pole.
                                                Proposals for deals of all sorts can be lodged.

                                                Wolfgang

                                                -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                                                Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                                                Auftrag von Pepijn Hendriks
                                                Gesendet: 2005 ???? 27 12, ????????? 11:20
                                                An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                                Betreff: Re: AW: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour



                                                Let me put in my bit as well. Back in
                                                <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/borderpoint/message/123> I said that I
                                                couldn't find out much about the arrangements in Szczecin.

                                                From what I've learnt since:
                                                * Czechoslovakia gave up the rights to their territory in Szczecin in
                                                1956. This refers to the Transport Agreement (called 'Układ
                                                komunikacyjny' in Polish, or 'Dopravní dohoda' in Czech) signed on 13
                                                January 1956 in Prague.
                                                * The Polish version of this agreement can be found at
                                                <http://www.park.pl/prawo/1950-1980/du195700090035.html>; the Czech
                                                version is at
                                                <http://www.mdcr.cz/NR/rdonlyres/8D519E7F-42FF-4A41-A6AD-6753634A5F73/0/v741
                                                956.rtf>.

                                                * Unfortunately, neither the Polish nor the Czech versions include all
                                                annexes.
                                                * The Czech version includes a list of treaties which it annuls. Among
                                                those is an earlier agreement, from 15 July 1949, concerning the lease
                                                of areas in the port of Szczecin. I have not been able to find this
                                                document, although from the document that Peter Smaardijk referred to
                                                one can infer that the actual lease takes the form of a contract between
                                                the Szczecin Port Authority and a Czech company called the
                                                Czechoslovak Transport Corporation ('Czechosłowackie Spedycyjne
                                                Towarzystwo Akcyjne' in Polish).
                                                * The same document mentions that another annex to the 1956 agreement
                                                regulated the "assumption of the Czechoslovak area by the Board of the
                                                Port of Szczecin".

                                                For more details about the arrangements in Hamburg (including the
                                                surface area of the lots) please refer to
                                                <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/borderpoint/message/124>.

                                                -Pepijn

                                                > ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
                                                > Van: "Wolfgang Schaub" <Wolfgang.Schaub@...>
                                                > Aan: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Datum: zondag 25 december 2005 17:57:26
                                                > Onderwerp: AW: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                                                >
                                                > You make good points, Len. Exactly those are the salient issues (which I
                                                did
                                                > not mention so that the matter does not get over-complicated).
                                                >
                                                > There is another one: Would the Versailles Treaty still be valid today?
                                                > (after so much hassle in between) In other words, would GB stand up and
                                                > claim the lease has to be "executed" till the 99 years are over, in case
                                                CZ
                                                > and D agree to silently forget the matter?
                                                >
                                                > For me the interesting thing is still Szczecin. So far nobody has dared
                                                > translating the Polish text, but sooner or later I'll catch a Pole on the
                                                > street and ask him to do the job for me against a bottle of wine.
                                                >
                                                > I had forgotten another reason why the Szczecin enclave has not been
                                                > resurrected (in case it ever existed): it was a matter between CZ and D;
                                                > what the heck have the Poles to do with it? So if CZ wants it resurrected
                                                > the Poles simply say no, and that's it.
                                                >
                                                > I saw it coming: You give me the Vennbahn treaty, I give you the Hamburg
                                                > stuff. Fair deal.
                                                >
                                                > No, I don't have a Beschreibung of the Begrenzungen, but that is a matter
                                                > you may ask the Hamburg Katasteramt to provide (?). You should also know
                                                > there are/were 2 enclaves in Hamburg, one at Saalehafen, the other
                                                (smaller
                                                > one) at Peutehafen. The size has been mentioned in newspapers as "30,000"
                                                > sq.m., but it is not clear whether this refers to the Saalehafen enclave
                                                or
                                                > to both together. The one at Saalehafen carries the house number 40, if I
                                                > remember correctly.
                                                >
                                                > (When I was there last, some years ago, the Czech manager - or better:
                                                > "director" - said: "No problem, come in, we are packing and will be gone
                                                in
                                                > a few days, you can do here whatever you like". Nearby, in the oily waters
                                                > of the harbour, lay the party boat "Prague" - reminiscence of better days)
                                                >
                                                > Wolfgang




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