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Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour

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  • Wolfgang Schaub
    The exclave(s) that the Czech Republic holds in Hamburg harbour are probably known to most of you - according to state law it (they) is (are) only
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 22, 2005
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      The exclave(s) that the Czech Republic holds in Hamburg harbour are probably
      known to most of you - according to state law it (they) is (are) only
      extra-territorial subjects on German soil.

      But how about the exclave in Stettin harbour that the young Czechoslovakia
      was granted as per the Versailles Treaty in 1919? It never made great noise.
      Did it ever exist? And if so, where is it located in today's Szczecin? And
      which status did it have - and may still have?

      Questions, that move the World! Thank you, my Polish and Czech friends in
      particular, for bringing some light into the darkness that has fallen over
      that ultimate mystery of life! Also Brendan Whyte from around the Globe may
      have an answer...?

      Wolfgang
    • Peter Smaardijk
      I haven t had the time to read it yet, but it looks promising - hopefully one of our Poles can have a look: http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 22, 2005
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        I haven't had the time to read it yet, but it looks promising -
        hopefully one of our Poles can have a look:

        http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
        op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=496&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

        http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
        op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=497&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

        Peter

        --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
        <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
        >
        > The exclave(s) that the Czech Republic holds in Hamburg harbour
        are probably
        > known to most of you - according to state law it (they) is (are)
        only
        > extra-territorial subjects on German soil.
        >
        > But how about the exclave in Stettin harbour that the young
        Czechoslovakia
        > was granted as per the Versailles Treaty in 1919? It never made
        great noise.
        > Did it ever exist? And if so, where is it located in today's
        Szczecin? And
        > which status did it have - and may still have?
        >
        > Questions, that move the World! Thank you, my Polish and Czech
        friends in
        > particular, for bringing some light into the darkness that has
        fallen over
        > that ultimate mystery of life! Also Brendan Whyte from around the
        Globe may
        > have an answer...?
        >
        > Wolfgang
        >
      • Wolfgang Schaub
        That was extremely helpful, Peter. Thank you very much! The interesting spots in the text are cleary visible, and leave me only with the alternative to either
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 22, 2005
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          That was extremely helpful, Peter. Thank you very much!

          The interesting spots in the text are cleary visible, and leave me only with
          the alternative to either finally attend a quick course in Polish or to find
          a mild-hearted fellow from across the Oder to read this to me.

          Thanks again,

          Wolfgang

          -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
          Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
          Auftrag von Peter Smaardijk
          Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 14:00
          An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
          Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour


          I haven't had the time to read it yet, but it looks promising -
          hopefully one of our Poles can have a look:

          http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
          op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=496&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

          http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
          op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=497&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

          Peter

          --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
          <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
          >
          > The exclave(s) that the Czech Republic holds in Hamburg harbour
          are probably
          > known to most of you - according to state law it (they) is (are)
          only
          > extra-territorial subjects on German soil.
          >
          > But how about the exclave in Stettin harbour that the young
          Czechoslovakia
          > was granted as per the Versailles Treaty in 1919? It never made
          great noise.
          > Did it ever exist? And if so, where is it located in today's
          Szczecin? And
          > which status did it have - and may still have?
          >
          > Questions, that move the World! Thank you, my Polish and Czech
          friends in
          > particular, for bringing some light into the darkness that has
          fallen over
          > that ultimate mystery of life! Also Brendan Whyte from around the
          Globe may
          > have an answer...?
          >
          > Wolfgang
          >









          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • jimvandura
          Hi! A third alternative, if not a self-contradiction too, may be: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/8623 -- Jimi
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 22, 2005
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            Hi! A third alternative, if not a self-contradiction too, may be:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/8623
            -- Jimi

            --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub" <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
            >
            > That was extremely helpful, Peter. Thank you very much!
            >
            > The interesting spots in the text are cleary visible, and leave me only with
            > the alternative to either finally attend a quick course in Polish or to find
            > a mild-hearted fellow from across the Oder to read this to me.
            >
            > Thanks again,
            >
            > Wolfgang
            >
            > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
            > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
            > Auftrag von Peter Smaardijk
            > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 14:00
            > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
            > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
            >
            >
            > I haven't had the time to read it yet, but it looks promising -
            > hopefully one of our Poles can have a look:
            >
            > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
            > op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=496&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
            >
            > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
            > op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=497&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
            >
            > Peter
            >
            > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
            > <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
            > >
            > > The exclave(s) that the Czech Republic holds in Hamburg harbour
            > are probably
            > > known to most of you - according to state law it (they) is (are)
            > only
            > > extra-territorial subjects on German soil.
            > >
            > > But how about the exclave in Stettin harbour that the young
            > Czechoslovakia
            > > was granted as per the Versailles Treaty in 1919? It never made
            > great noise.
            > > Did it ever exist? And if so, where is it located in today's
            > Szczecin? And
            > > which status did it have - and may still have?
            > >
            > > Questions, that move the World! Thank you, my Polish and Czech
            > friends in
            > > particular, for bringing some light into the darkness that has
            > fallen over
            > > that ultimate mystery of life! Also Brendan Whyte from around the
            > Globe may
            > > have an answer...?
            > >
            > > Wolfgang
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
          • Wolfgang Schaub
            Thank you, Jimi. Very helpful, indeed. I consulted in the meantime the forum http://www.megagratis.de/jump.php?id=2331 and http://www.forumromanum.de
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 22, 2005
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              Thank you, Jimi. Very helpful, indeed. I consulted in the meantime the forum
              http://www.megagratis.de/jump.php?id=2331 and http://www.forumromanum.de
              respectively, which say their members can translate Polish texts for free. I
              gave them the 2 links that Peter provided, told them what to focus on, and
              will post the outcome, if any.

              Wolfgang

              -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
              Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
              Auftrag von jimvandura
              Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 20:49
              An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
              Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour


              Hi! A third alternative, if not a self-contradiction too, may be:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/8623
              -- Jimi

              --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub" <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...>
              wrote:
              >
              > That was extremely helpful, Peter. Thank you very much!
              >
              > The interesting spots in the text are cleary visible, and leave me only
              with
              > the alternative to either finally attend a quick course in Polish or to
              find
              > a mild-hearted fellow from across the Oder to read this to me.
              >
              > Thanks again,
              >
              > Wolfgang
              >
              > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
              > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
              > Auftrag von Peter Smaardijk
              > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 14:00
              > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
              > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
              >
              >
              > I haven't had the time to read it yet, but it looks promising -
              > hopefully one of our Poles can have a look:
              >
              > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
              > op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=496&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
              >
              > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
              > op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=497&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
              >
              > Peter
              >
              > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
              > <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
              > >
              > > The exclave(s) that the Czech Republic holds in Hamburg harbour
              > are probably
              > > known to most of you - according to state law it (they) is (are)
              > only
              > > extra-territorial subjects on German soil.
              > >
              > > But how about the exclave in Stettin harbour that the young
              > Czechoslovakia
              > > was granted as per the Versailles Treaty in 1919? It never made
              > great noise.
              > > Did it ever exist? And if so, where is it located in today's
              > Szczecin? And
              > > which status did it have - and may still have?
              > >
              > > Questions, that move the World! Thank you, my Polish and Czech
              > friends in
              > > particular, for bringing some light into the darkness that has
              > fallen over
              > > that ultimate mystery of life! Also Brendan Whyte from around the
              > Globe may
              > > have an answer...?
              > >
              > > Wolfgang
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >









              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • jimvandura
              You re welcome. I love this bogus stuff. And I m sure there s no etymological connection either, nor hardly a trace of anything Czech in Szczechin for that
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 22, 2005
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                You're welcome. I love this bogus stuff. And I'm sure there's no etymological connection
                either, nor hardly a trace of anything Czech in Szczechin for that matter, except when so
                zanily missspelled (1640 times by Google count). Jv

                --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub" <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                >
                > Thank you, Jimi. Very helpful, indeed. I consulted in the meantime the forum
                > http://www.megagratis.de/jump.php?id=2331 and http://www.forumromanum.de
                > respectively, which say their members can translate Polish texts for free. I
                > gave them the 2 links that Peter provided, told them what to focus on, and
                > will post the outcome, if any.
                >
                > Wolfgang
                >
                > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                > Auftrag von jimvandura
                > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 20:49
                > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                >
                >
                > Hi! A third alternative, if not a self-contradiction too, may be:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/8623
                > -- Jimi
                >
                > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub" <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > That was extremely helpful, Peter. Thank you very much!
                > >
                > > The interesting spots in the text are cleary visible, and leave me only
                > with
                > > the alternative to either finally attend a quick course in Polish or to
                > find
                > > a mild-hearted fellow from across the Oder to read this to me.
                > >
                > > Thanks again,
                > >
                > > Wolfgang
                > >
                > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                > > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                > > Auftrag von Peter Smaardijk
                > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 14:00
                > > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                > > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                > >
                > >
                > > I haven't had the time to read it yet, but it looks promising -
                > > hopefully one of our Poles can have a look:
                > >
                > > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
                > > op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=496&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
                > >
                > > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
                > > op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=497&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
                > >
                > > Peter
                > >
                > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                > > <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > The exclave(s) that the Czech Republic holds in Hamburg harbour
                > > are probably
                > > > known to most of you - according to state law it (they) is (are)
                > > only
                > > > extra-territorial subjects on German soil.
                > > >
                > > > But how about the exclave in Stettin harbour that the young
                > > Czechoslovakia
                > > > was granted as per the Versailles Treaty in 1919? It never made
                > > great noise.
                > > > Did it ever exist? And if so, where is it located in today's
                > > Szczecin? And
                > > > which status did it have - and may still have?
                > > >
                > > > Questions, that move the World! Thank you, my Polish and Czech
                > > friends in
                > > > particular, for bringing some light into the darkness that has
                > > fallen over
                > > > that ultimate mystery of life! Also Brendan Whyte from around the
                > > Globe may
                > > > have an answer...?
                > > >
                > > > Wolfgang
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
              • Wolfgang Schaub
                Szczecin in Czech would read Š?é?in or Š?e?ín - if i m not mistaken. To google for Š?é?in? Doesn t make much sense because I simpleton do not know Czech
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 23, 2005
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                  Szczecin in Czech would read Š?é?in or Š?e?ín - if i'm not mistaken. To
                  google for Š?é?in? Doesn't make much sense because I simpleton do not know
                  Czech either. Actually it appears from Len's old posting that the matter was
                  entirely German - Czech. We should rather find the old Buergermeister of
                  Stettin and ask him. More precisely, it must have been an affair that the
                  Weimar Republic - 1919 - 1932 - had to deal with; the Nazis would have ended
                  the exclave abruptly, as they have done in the Hamburg case.

                  So I google for "Stettin" and "tschechisch": 837 hits - too many. And
                  "Stettin", "tschechisch" and "Exklave" or "Enklave": still 123 hits. All
                  seem to talk about Kaliningrad (as an enclave) and its significance as a
                  harbour, similar to Stettin. Fuck.

                  Wolfgang

                  -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                  Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                  Auftrag von jimvandura
                  Gesendet: Freitag, 23. Dezember 2005 00:33
                  An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour


                  You're welcome. I love this bogus stuff. And I'm sure there's no
                  etymological connection
                  either, nor hardly a trace of anything Czech in Szczechin for that matter,
                  except when so
                  zanily missspelled (1640 times by Google count). Jv

                  --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub" <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Thank you, Jimi. Very helpful, indeed. I consulted in the meantime the
                  forum
                  > http://www.megagratis.de/jump.php?id=2331 and http://www.forumromanum.de
                  > respectively, which say their members can translate Polish texts for free.
                  I
                  > gave them the 2 links that Peter provided, told them what to focus on, and
                  > will post the outcome, if any.
                  >
                  > Wolfgang
                  >
                  > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                  > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                  > Auftrag von jimvandura
                  > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 20:49
                  > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi! A third alternative, if not a self-contradiction too, may be:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/8623
                  > -- Jimi
                  >
                  > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                  <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > That was extremely helpful, Peter. Thank you very much!
                  > >
                  > > The interesting spots in the text are cleary visible, and leave me only
                  > with
                  > > the alternative to either finally attend a quick course in Polish or to
                  > find
                  > > a mild-hearted fellow from across the Oder to read this to me.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks again,
                  > >
                  > > Wolfgang
                  > >
                  > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                  > > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                  > > Auftrag von Peter Smaardijk
                  > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 14:00
                  > > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I haven't had the time to read it yet, but it looks promising -
                  > > hopefully one of our Poles can have a look:
                  > >
                  > > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
                  > > op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=496&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
                  > >
                  > > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
                  > > op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=497&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
                  > >
                  > > Peter
                  > >
                  > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                  > > <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > The exclave(s) that the Czech Republic holds in Hamburg harbour
                  > > are probably
                  > > > known to most of you - according to state law it (they) is (are)
                  > > only
                  > > > extra-territorial subjects on German soil.
                  > > >
                  > > > But how about the exclave in Stettin harbour that the young
                  > > Czechoslovakia
                  > > > was granted as per the Versailles Treaty in 1919? It never made
                  > > great noise.
                  > > > Did it ever exist? And if so, where is it located in today's
                  > > Szczecin? And
                  > > > which status did it have - and may still have?
                  > > >
                  > > > Questions, that move the World! Thank you, my Polish and Czech
                  > > friends in
                  > > > particular, for bringing some light into the darkness that has
                  > > fallen over
                  > > > that ultimate mystery of life! Also Brendan Whyte from around the
                  > > Globe may
                  > > > have an answer...?
                  > > >
                  > > > Wolfgang
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >









                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • L. A. Nadybal
                  I contacted the city government in Stettin some time back - the historical office said there is no record of any city liability to support a leased territory,
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 23, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I contacted the city government in Stettin some time back - the
                    historical office said there is no record of any city liability to
                    support a leased territory, for as long as the town has been Polish.
                    It's odd that the Hamburg arrangement survived (or was revived after
                    the fall of the 3rd reich) through the occupation (British Zone) and
                    to the BRD as a successor state, and the Stettin one didn't (under
                    Russian domination affer the war on behalf of a "brotherly" state).
                    Knowing the Russians like I don't, they probably felt no obligation to
                    a subjugated Czech state, anyway.
                    LN

                    --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                    <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Szczecin in Czech would read Š?é?in or Š?e?ín - if i'm not mistaken. To
                    > google for Š?é?in? Doesn't make much sense because I simpleton do
                    not know
                    > Czech either. Actually it appears from Len's old posting that the
                    matter was
                    > entirely German - Czech. We should rather find the old Buergermeister of
                    > Stettin and ask him. More precisely, it must have been an affair
                    that the
                    > Weimar Republic - 1919 - 1932 - had to deal with; the Nazis would
                    have ended
                    > the exclave abruptly, as they have done in the Hamburg case.
                    >
                    > So I google for "Stettin" and "tschechisch": 837 hits - too many. And
                    > "Stettin", "tschechisch" and "Exklave" or "Enklave": still 123 hits. All
                    > seem to talk about Kaliningrad (as an enclave) and its significance as a
                    > harbour, similar to Stettin. Fuck.
                    >
                    > Wolfgang
                    >
                    > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                    > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                    > Auftrag von jimvandura
                    > Gesendet: Freitag, 23. Dezember 2005 00:33
                    > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                    >
                    >
                    > You're welcome. I love this bogus stuff. And I'm sure there's no
                    > etymological connection
                    > either, nor hardly a trace of anything Czech in Szczechin for that
                    matter,
                    > except when so
                    > zanily missspelled (1640 times by Google count). Jv
                    >
                    > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                    <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Thank you, Jimi. Very helpful, indeed. I consulted in the meantime the
                    > forum
                    > > http://www.megagratis.de/jump.php?id=2331 and
                    http://www.forumromanum.de
                    > > respectively, which say their members can translate Polish texts
                    for free.
                    > I
                    > > gave them the 2 links that Peter provided, told them what to focus
                    on, and
                    > > will post the outcome, if any.
                    > >
                    > > Wolfgang
                    > >
                    > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                    > > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                    > > Auftrag von jimvandura
                    > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 20:49
                    > > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hi! A third alternative, if not a self-contradiction too, may be:
                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/8623
                    > > -- Jimi
                    > >
                    > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                    > <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > That was extremely helpful, Peter. Thank you very much!
                    > > >
                    > > > The interesting spots in the text are cleary visible, and leave
                    me only
                    > > with
                    > > > the alternative to either finally attend a quick course in
                    Polish or to
                    > > find
                    > > > a mild-hearted fellow from across the Oder to read this to me.
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks again,
                    > > >
                    > > > Wolfgang
                    > > >
                    > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                    > > > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                    > > > Auftrag von Peter Smaardijk
                    > > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 14:00
                    > > > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > I haven't had the time to read it yet, but it looks promising -
                    > > > hopefully one of our Poles can have a look:
                    > > >
                    > > > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
                    > > >
                    op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=496&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
                    > > >
                    > > > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
                    > > >
                    op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=497&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
                    > > >
                    > > > Peter
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                    > > > <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The exclave(s) that the Czech Republic holds in Hamburg harbour
                    > > > are probably
                    > > > > known to most of you - according to state law it (they) is (are)
                    > > > only
                    > > > > extra-territorial subjects on German soil.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > But how about the exclave in Stettin harbour that the young
                    > > > Czechoslovakia
                    > > > > was granted as per the Versailles Treaty in 1919? It never made
                    > > > great noise.
                    > > > > Did it ever exist? And if so, where is it located in today's
                    > > > Szczecin? And
                    > > > > which status did it have - and may still have?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Questions, that move the World! Thank you, my Polish and Czech
                    > > > friends in
                    > > > > particular, for bringing some light into the darkness that has
                    > > > fallen over
                    > > > > that ultimate mystery of life! Also Brendan Whyte from around the
                    > > > Globe may
                    > > > > have an answer...?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Wolfgang
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                  • Lowell G. McManus
                    To the Soviets, a Czechoslovak outlets to the sea meant contact and trade with the West. It was better for the Soviets to keep Czechoslovakia dependent on
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 23, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      To the Soviets, a Czechoslovak outlets to the sea meant contact and trade with
                      the West. It was better for the Soviets to keep Czechoslovakia dependent on
                      them in those regards. It was in the geopolitical interest of the British and
                      West Germans, however, to allow Czechoslovakia such contacts.

                      Lowell G. McManus
                      Leesville, Louisiana, USA


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "L. A. Nadybal" <lnadybal@...>
                      To: <borderpoint@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 7:58 PM
                      Subject: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour


                      I contacted the city government in Stettin some time back - the
                      historical office said there is no record of any city liability to
                      support a leased territory, for as long as the town has been Polish.
                      It's odd that the Hamburg arrangement survived (or was revived after
                      the fall of the 3rd reich) through the occupation (British Zone) and
                      to the BRD as a successor state, and the Stettin one didn't (under
                      Russian domination affer the war on behalf of a "brotherly" state).
                      Knowing the Russians like I don't, they probably felt no obligation to
                      a subjugated Czech state, anyway.
                      LN

                      --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                      <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Szczecin in Czech would read S?é?in or S?e?ín - if i'm not mistaken. To
                      > google for S?é?in? Doesn't make much sense because I simpleton do
                      not know
                      > Czech either. Actually it appears from Len's old posting that the
                      matter was
                      > entirely German - Czech. We should rather find the old Buergermeister of
                      > Stettin and ask him. More precisely, it must have been an affair
                      that the
                      > Weimar Republic - 1919 - 1932 - had to deal with; the Nazis would
                      have ended
                      > the exclave abruptly, as they have done in the Hamburg case.
                      >
                      > So I google for "Stettin" and "tschechisch": 837 hits - too many. And
                      > "Stettin", "tschechisch" and "Exklave" or "Enklave": still 123 hits. All
                      > seem to talk about Kaliningrad (as an enclave) and its significance as a
                      > harbour, similar to Stettin. Fuck.
                      >
                      > Wolfgang
                      >
                      > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                      > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                      > Auftrag von jimvandura
                      > Gesendet: Freitag, 23. Dezember 2005 00:33
                      > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                      > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                      >
                      >
                      > You're welcome. I love this bogus stuff. And I'm sure there's no
                      > etymological connection
                      > either, nor hardly a trace of anything Czech in Szczechin for that
                      matter,
                      > except when so
                      > zanily missspelled (1640 times by Google count). Jv
                      >
                      > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                      <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Thank you, Jimi. Very helpful, indeed. I consulted in the meantime the
                      > forum
                      > > http://www.megagratis.de/jump.php?id=2331 and
                      http://www.forumromanum.de
                      > > respectively, which say their members can translate Polish texts
                      for free.
                      > I
                      > > gave them the 2 links that Peter provided, told them what to focus
                      on, and
                      > > will post the outcome, if any.
                      > >
                      > > Wolfgang
                      > >
                      > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                      > > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                      > > Auftrag von jimvandura
                      > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 20:49
                      > > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hi! A third alternative, if not a self-contradiction too, may be:
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/8623
                      > > -- Jimi
                      > >
                      > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                      > <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > That was extremely helpful, Peter. Thank you very much!
                      > > >
                      > > > The interesting spots in the text are cleary visible, and leave
                      me only
                      > > with
                      > > > the alternative to either finally attend a quick course in
                      Polish or to
                      > > find
                      > > > a mild-hearted fellow from across the Oder to read this to me.
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks again,
                      > > >
                      > > > Wolfgang
                      > > >
                      > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                      > > > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                      > > > Auftrag von Peter Smaardijk
                      > > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 14:00
                      > > > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > I haven't had the time to read it yet, but it looks promising -
                      > > > hopefully one of our Poles can have a look:
                      > > >
                      > > > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
                      > > >
                      op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=496&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
                      > > >
                      > > > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
                      > > >
                      op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=497&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
                      > > >
                      > > > Peter
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                      > > > <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > The exclave(s) that the Czech Republic holds in Hamburg harbour
                      > > > are probably
                      > > > > known to most of you - according to state law it (they) is (are)
                      > > > only
                      > > > > extra-territorial subjects on German soil.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > But how about the exclave in Stettin harbour that the young
                      > > > Czechoslovakia
                      > > > > was granted as per the Versailles Treaty in 1919? It never made
                      > > > great noise.
                      > > > > Did it ever exist? And if so, where is it located in today's
                      > > > Szczecin? And
                      > > > > which status did it have - and may still have?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Questions, that move the World! Thank you, my Polish and Czech
                      > > > friends in
                      > > > > particular, for bringing some light into the darkness that has
                      > > > fallen over
                      > > > > that ultimate mystery of life! Also Brendan Whyte from around the
                      > > > Globe may
                      > > > > have an answer...?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Wolfgang
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >








                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • Wolfgang Schaub
                      No surprise to me that the Hamburg arrangement was revived after the fall of the 3rd Reich. First, the exclave means income to the city of Hamburg - the Czechs
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 24, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        No surprise to me that the Hamburg arrangement was revived after the fall of
                        the 3rd Reich. First, the exclave means income to the city of Hamburg - the
                        Czechs have to pay an annual lease to the mayor (indicating that the exclave
                        is not fully Czech); second, and maybe more important, Germany has not been
                        sovereign for a while - at minimum between 1945 and 1949 - so that
                        everything was fixed by the allies, and much in a sense of making sure the
                        newly emerging Federal Republic would not become too strong, or, in other
                        words, political correctness, thus demonstrating the left-over Nazis what
                        "proper" behavior is. Third, the shippability (does that word exist?) of the
                        Oder ended/began in 1948 just where it crossed the border into an area that
                        was after the Potsdam accord only "temporarily under Polish administration",
                        in other words of unclear political future; hence, the Stettin harbour was
                        of no or little significance to the Czechs as compared with Hamburg. The
                        Elbe/Labe, in contrast, could be navigated up to where the Moldau entered
                        in those times, meaning that Czech ships of some size could communicate
                        between Hamburg and Czechoslovakia much better than on the Oder.
                        The worst that can happen to Hamburg is that the Czechs abandon the exclave
                        and refuse paying their lease.
                        My interest in this has to do with the question whether the Czechoslovakian
                        government was irrational enough in 1920 to implement a paragraph of the
                        Versailles treaty that had been written at a time prior to the foundation of
                        Czechoslovakia itself, and against all economical wisdom.

                        Wolfgang

                        -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                        Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                        Auftrag von L. A. Nadybal
                        Gesendet: Samstag, 24. Dezember 2005 02:59
                        An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                        Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour


                        I contacted the city government in Stettin some time back - the
                        historical office said there is no record of any city liability to
                        support a leased territory, for as long as the town has been Polish.
                        It's odd that the Hamburg arrangement survived (or was revived after
                        the fall of the 3rd reich) through the occupation (British Zone) and
                        to the BRD as a successor state, and the Stettin one didn't (under
                        Russian domination affer the war on behalf of a "brotherly" state).
                        Knowing the Russians like I don't, they probably felt no obligation to
                        a subjugated Czech state, anyway.
                        LN

                        --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                        <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Szczecin in Czech would read Š?é?in or Š?e?ín - if i'm not mistaken. To
                        > google for Š?é?in? Doesn't make much sense because I simpleton do
                        not know
                        > Czech either. Actually it appears from Len's old posting that the
                        matter was
                        > entirely German - Czech. We should rather find the old Buergermeister of
                        > Stettin and ask him. More precisely, it must have been an affair
                        that the
                        > Weimar Republic - 1919 - 1932 - had to deal with; the Nazis would
                        have ended
                        > the exclave abruptly, as they have done in the Hamburg case.
                        >
                        > So I google for "Stettin" and "tschechisch": 837 hits - too many. And
                        > "Stettin", "tschechisch" and "Exklave" or "Enklave": still 123 hits. All
                        > seem to talk about Kaliningrad (as an enclave) and its significance as a
                        > harbour, similar to Stettin. Fuck.
                        >
                        > Wolfgang
                        >
                        > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                        > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                        > Auftrag von jimvandura
                        > Gesendet: Freitag, 23. Dezember 2005 00:33
                        > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                        > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                        >
                        >
                        > You're welcome. I love this bogus stuff. And I'm sure there's no
                        > etymological connection
                        > either, nor hardly a trace of anything Czech in Szczechin for that
                        matter,
                        > except when so
                        > zanily missspelled (1640 times by Google count). Jv
                        >
                        > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                        <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Thank you, Jimi. Very helpful, indeed. I consulted in the meantime the
                        > forum
                        > > http://www.megagratis.de/jump.php?id=2331 and
                        http://www.forumromanum.de
                        > > respectively, which say their members can translate Polish texts
                        for free.
                        > I
                        > > gave them the 2 links that Peter provided, told them what to focus
                        on, and
                        > > will post the outcome, if any.
                        > >
                        > > Wolfgang
                        > >
                        > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                        > > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                        > > Auftrag von jimvandura
                        > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 20:49
                        > > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Hi! A third alternative, if not a self-contradiction too, may be:
                        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/8623
                        > > -- Jimi
                        > >
                        > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                        > <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > That was extremely helpful, Peter. Thank you very much!
                        > > >
                        > > > The interesting spots in the text are cleary visible, and leave
                        me only
                        > > with
                        > > > the alternative to either finally attend a quick course in
                        Polish or to
                        > > find
                        > > > a mild-hearted fellow from across the Oder to read this to me.
                        > > >
                        > > > Thanks again,
                        > > >
                        > > > Wolfgang
                        > > >
                        > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                        > > > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                        > > > Auftrag von Peter Smaardijk
                        > > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005 14:00
                        > > > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > I haven't had the time to read it yet, but it looks promising -
                        > > > hopefully one of our Poles can have a look:
                        > > >
                        > > > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
                        > > >
                        op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=496&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
                        > > >
                        > > > http://sedina.pl/modules.php?
                        > > >
                        op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=497&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
                        > > >
                        > > > Peter
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                        > > > <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The exclave(s) that the Czech Republic holds in Hamburg harbour
                        > > > are probably
                        > > > > known to most of you - according to state law it (they) is (are)
                        > > > only
                        > > > > extra-territorial subjects on German soil.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > But how about the exclave in Stettin harbour that the young
                        > > > Czechoslovakia
                        > > > > was granted as per the Versailles Treaty in 1919? It never made
                        > > > great noise.
                        > > > > Did it ever exist? And if so, where is it located in today's
                        > > > Szczecin? And
                        > > > > which status did it have - and may still have?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Questions, that move the World! Thank you, my Polish and Czech
                        > > > friends in
                        > > > > particular, for bringing some light into the darkness that has
                        > > > fallen over
                        > > > > that ultimate mystery of life! Also Brendan Whyte from around the
                        > > > Globe may
                        > > > > have an answer...?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Wolfgang
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >








                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • Barry Arnold
                        Merry Christmas to you all and perhaps especially to the villagers of Nagyszelmenc (Slovakia) and Kisszelmenc (Ukraine) where at last the border that has
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 24, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Merry Christmas to you all and perhaps especially to the villagers of
                          Nagyszelmenc (Slovakia) and Kisszelmenc (Ukraine) where at last the border
                          that has divided their village has now been opened.

                          http://uk.news.yahoo.com/24122005/80/villagers-reunited-slovak-ukraine-border-crossing.htm

                          Barry

                          _________________________________________________________________
                          Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN Messenger
                          7.5 today! http://messenger.msn.co.uk
                        • L. A. Nadybal
                          You wrote: My interest in this has to do with the question whether the Czechoslovakian government was irrational enough in 1920 to implement a paragraph of
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 24, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            You wrote: "My interest in this has to do with the question whether
                            the Czechoslovakian government was irrational enough in 1920 to
                            implement a paragraph of the Versailles treaty that had been written
                            at a time prior to the foundation of Czechoslovakia itself, and
                            against all economical wisdom."

                            Why would it have been irrational?
                            I'm curious as to which state it was that the Versaille treaty
                            intended the harbor in Stettin to benefit, if the Czech state wasn't
                            yet in existence.

                            The lease period in Hamburg is coming to an end in the next couple of
                            years, if the Czechs haven't given it up already, given the bankruptcy
                            of the operating company and the unified state of affairs between the
                            host and the lessor. The areas was never part of CZ - and "rent" is a
                            common feature of leased areas. Titular sovereignty always rests with
                            the lessee unless annexation occurs. Guantanamo is Cuban land and the
                            US pays "rent". The US acts "as though it were the sovereign", not
                            "as the sovereign".

                            Regards
                            Frohe Weihnachten
                            Len
                          • Wolfgang Schaub
                            Why would it have been irrational? Because in Stettin it did not serve a tangible purpose other than humiliating Germany, in particular not an economic
                            Message 13 of 23 , Dec 24, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              "Why would it have been irrational?" Because in Stettin it did not serve a
                              tangible purpose other than humiliating Germany, in particular not an
                              economic purpose, except if the Czechs would have had to pay a rent like
                              they do in Hamburg. There was certainly no benefit for Stettin intended
                              (knowing the intentions of the allies when putting together the Versailles
                              Treaty).

                              I heard the Hamburgians would not like to see the Czechs go - they would
                              lose a few thousand Euros annually.

                              Shubh Naya Baras,
                              Wolfgang

                              -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                              Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                              Auftrag von L. A. Nadybal
                              Gesendet: Samstag, 24. Dezember 2005 15:29
                              An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                              Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour


                              You wrote: "My interest in this has to do with the question whether
                              the Czechoslovakian government was irrational enough in 1920 to
                              implement a paragraph of the Versailles treaty that had been written
                              at a time prior to the foundation of Czechoslovakia itself, and
                              against all economical wisdom."

                              Why would it have been irrational?
                              I'm curious as to which state it was that the Versaille treaty
                              intended the harbor in Stettin to benefit, if the Czech state wasn't
                              yet in existence.

                              The lease period in Hamburg is coming to an end in the next couple of
                              years, if the Czechs haven't given it up already, given the bankruptcy
                              of the operating company and the unified state of affairs between the
                              host and the lessor. The areas was never part of CZ - and "rent" is a
                              common feature of leased areas. Titular sovereignty always rests with
                              the lessee unless annexation occurs. Guantanamo is Cuban land and the
                              US pays "rent". The US acts "as though it were the sovereign", not
                              "as the sovereign".

                              Regards
                              Frohe Weihnachten
                              Len








                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                            • Doug Murray
                              Barry -- Thanks for passing on the story. The link works if you add a lower case L to the address. Or use this one: http://tinyurl.com/cllzl Here s more
                              Message 14 of 23 , Dec 24, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Merry Christmas to you all and perhaps especially to the villagers of
                                Nagyszelmenc (Slovakia) and Kisszelmenc (Ukraine) where at last the border
                                that has divided their village has now been opened.

                                http://uk.news.yahoo.com/24122005/80/villagers-reunited-slovak-ukraine-border-crossing.htm

                                Barry

                                _________________________________________________________________
                                Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN Messenger
                                7.5 today! http://messenger.msn.co.uk

                              • Doug Murray
                                As promised, my images from Velke Slemence, Slovakia: http://www.flickr.com/photos/borderfilms/sets/1648077/ Cheers! Doug ... Doug Murray Productions/Border
                                Message 15 of 23 , Dec 24, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  Barry -- Thanks for passing on the story.  The link works if you add a lower case L to the address.  Or use this one: http://tinyurl.com/cllzl

                                  Here's more background: http://tinyurl.com/8so7q

                                  And another story (in German) with a 5 minute VIDEO: http://tinyurl.com/drseb

                                  The GEEBE visited the VELKE SLEMENCE, Slovakia in 2003. 

                                  Harry ten Veen's images: http://home.planet.nl/~veenhh/borderland/europa/sk-ua.htm

                                  And I will dig out mine...

                                  All the best!

                                  Doug

                                  On Saturday, December 24, 2005, at 05:47AM, Barry Arnold <barry_432@...> wrote:

                                  >
                                  ><<Original Attached>>


                                  Doug Murray Productions/Border Films
                                  sounds+images+words
                                  Vancouver, BC Canada
                                  +1.604.728.1407

                                  IMAGES: http://www.flickr.com/photos/borderfilms/
                                • Barry Arnold
                                  Thanks Doug for the additional information and apologies for the faulty link. A fascinating situation with the border representing the division between
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Dec 24, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Thanks Doug for the additional information and apologies for the faulty
                                    link. A fascinating situation with the border representing the division
                                    between diiferent countries at different times. The GEEBE visit must have
                                    been great!!

                                    Take care & happy holidays. Love to see your photos

                                    Barry


                                    >From: Doug Murray <doug@...>
                                    >Reply-To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                    >To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                    >Subject: Re: [borderpoint] VELKE SLEMENCE, Slovakia was (unknown)
                                    >Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 07:05:57 -0800
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Barry -- Thanks for passing on the story.� The link works if you add a
                                    >lower case L to the address.� Or use this one: http://tinyurl.com/cllzl
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Here's more background: http://tinyurl.com/8so7q
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >And another story (in German) with a 5 minute VIDEO:
                                    >http://tinyurl.com/drseb
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >The GEEBE visited the VELKE SLEMENCE, Slovakia in 2003.�
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Harry ten Veen's images:
                                    >http://home.planet.nl/~veenhh/borderland/europa/sk-ua.htm
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >And I will dig out mine...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >All the best!
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Doug
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >On Saturday, December 24, 2005, at 05:47AM, Barry Arnold
                                    ><barry_432@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > ><<Original Attached>>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Doug Murray Productions/Border Films
                                    >
                                    >sounds+images+words
                                    >
                                    >Vancouver, BC Canada
                                    >
                                    >+1.604.728.1407
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >IMAGES: http://www.flickr.com/photos/borderfilms/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > �Visit your group "borderpoint" on the web.
                                    >�
                                    > �To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    >�borderpoint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >�
                                    > �Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Merry Christmas to you all and perhaps especially to the villagers of
                                    >
                                    >Nagyszelmenc (Slovakia) and Kisszelmenc (Ukraine) where at last the border
                                    >
                                    >that has divided their village has now been opened.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >http://uk.news.yahoo.com/24122005/80/villagers-reunited-slovak-ukraine-border-crossing.htm
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Barry
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >_________________________________________________________________
                                    >
                                    >Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN Messenger
                                    >
                                    >7.5 today! http://messenger.msn.co.uk
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >

                                    _________________________________________________________________
                                    Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters!
                                    http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters
                                  • Hugh Wallis
                                    According to http://www.ukremb.org.uk/eng/cvs/info/visas.html and other sites I have visited, visitors from EU countries to the Ukraine have not required visas
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Dec 24, 2005
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      According to http://www.ukremb.org.uk/eng/cvs/info/visas.html and other
                                      sites I have visited, visitors from EU countries to the Ukraine have not
                                      required visas since 1st September 2005 and so the restrictions seem to have
                                      been slowly lifting during the course of this year. I assume that theis
                                      means that the residents on the Slovakian side of the village have found it
                                      easier since then (albeit still a 30km round trip) than as described in the
                                      articles. It seems that the Eurovision Song Contest was partly to thank for
                                      this since Ukraine had wanted to facilitate travel in preparation for this
                                      event. Strange what strange events can influence these things.

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] On
                                      Behalf Of Barry Arnold
                                      Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 1:17 PM
                                      To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [borderpoint] VELKE SLEMENCE - United for Christmas

                                      Thanks Doug for the additional information and apologies for the faulty
                                      link. A fascinating situation with the border representing the division
                                      between diiferent countries at different times. The GEEBE visit must have
                                      been great!!

                                      Take care & happy holidays. Love to see your photos

                                      Barry


                                      >From: Doug Murray <doug@...>
                                      >Reply-To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                      >To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                      >Subject: Re: [borderpoint] VELKE SLEMENCE, Slovakia was (unknown)
                                      >Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 07:05:57 -0800
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >Barry -- Thanks for passing on the story.  The link works if you add a
                                      >lower case L to the address.  Or use this one: http://tinyurl.com/cllzl
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >Here's more background: http://tinyurl.com/8so7q
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >And another story (in German) with a 5 minute VIDEO:
                                      >http://tinyurl.com/drseb
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >The GEEBE visited the VELKE SLEMENCE, Slovakia in 2003. 
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >Harry ten Veen's images:
                                      >http://home.planet.nl/~veenhh/borderland/europa/sk-ua.htm
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >And I will dig out mine...
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >All the best!
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >Doug
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >On Saturday, December 24, 2005, at 05:47AM, Barry Arnold
                                      ><barry_432@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > ><<Original Attached>>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >Doug Murray Productions/Border Films
                                      >
                                      >sounds+images+words
                                      >
                                      >Vancouver, BC Canada
                                      >
                                      >+1.604.728.1407
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >IMAGES: http://www.flickr.com/photos/borderfilms/
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >  Visit your group "borderpoint" on the web.

                                      >  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      borderpoint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                      >  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >


                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >Merry Christmas to you all and perhaps especially to the villagers of
                                      >
                                      >Nagyszelmenc (Slovakia) and Kisszelmenc (Ukraine) where at last the border
                                      >
                                      >that has divided their village has now been opened.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >http://uk.news.yahoo.com/24122005/80/villagers-reunited-slovak-ukraine-bord
                                      er-crossing.htm
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >Barry
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >_________________________________________________________________
                                      >
                                      >Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN Messenger
                                      >
                                      >7.5 today! http://messenger.msn.co.uk
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >

                                      _________________________________________________________________
                                      Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters!
                                      http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters





                                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    • L. A. Nadybal
                                      Well, that means then, that the Hamburg leased area would have fallen prey at some point in the late 20s or early thirties to the political powers that
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Dec 24, 2005
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Well, that means then, that the Hamburg leased area would have fallen
                                        prey at some point in the late 20s or early thirties to the political
                                        powers that disregarded the treaty, just like Stettin. Why would
                                        their be a difference in treatment between them. At some point, then,
                                        there must be period in Hamburg's history after 1945 where the lease
                                        was resurrected. But we have no evidence of a lapse. If there was no
                                        lapse, then there was a reason to keep the lease alive (thus
                                        recognizing the provision in Versailles), and we then have a reverse
                                        differentiation in treatment. If keeping them was irrational because
                                        they were meant to be an embarrassment, then why did Hamburg's area
                                        stay leased throughout (if it did)? If there was a lapse, and W
                                        Germany as successor resurrected Hamburg's lease, then why didn't
                                        Poland, as a successor in Stettin, not honor the Czech's former treaty
                                        rights, too?
                                        Len


                                        --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                                        <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > "Why would it have been irrational?" Because in Stettin it did not
                                        serve a
                                        > tangible purpose other than humiliating Germany, in particular not an
                                        > economic purpose, except if the Czechs would have had to pay a rent like
                                        > they do in Hamburg. There was certainly no benefit for Stettin intended
                                        > (knowing the intentions of the allies when putting together the
                                        Versailles
                                        > Treaty).
                                        >
                                        > I heard the Hamburgians would not like to see the Czechs go - they would
                                        > lose a few thousand Euros annually.
                                        >
                                        > Shubh Naya Baras,
                                        > Wolfgang
                                        >
                                        > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                                        > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                                        > Auftrag von L. A. Nadybal
                                        > Gesendet: Samstag, 24. Dezember 2005 15:29
                                        > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > You wrote: "My interest in this has to do with the question whether
                                        > the Czechoslovakian government was irrational enough in 1920 to
                                        > implement a paragraph of the Versailles treaty that had been written
                                        > at a time prior to the foundation of Czechoslovakia itself, and
                                        > against all economical wisdom."
                                        >
                                        > Why would it have been irrational?
                                        > I'm curious as to which state it was that the Versaille treaty
                                        > intended the harbor in Stettin to benefit, if the Czech state wasn't
                                        > yet in existence.
                                        >
                                        > The lease period in Hamburg is coming to an end in the next couple of
                                        > years, if the Czechs haven't given it up already, given the bankruptcy
                                        > of the operating company and the unified state of affairs between the
                                        > host and the lessor. The areas was never part of CZ - and "rent" is a
                                        > common feature of leased areas. Titular sovereignty always rests with
                                        > the lessee unless annexation occurs. Guantanamo is Cuban land and the
                                        > US pays "rent". The US acts "as though it were the sovereign", not
                                        > "as the sovereign".
                                        >
                                        > Regards
                                        > Frohe Weihnachten
                                        > Len
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                      • Wolfgang Schaub
                                        Hamburg: As the lease was arranged only in 1928 the treaty may be kept alive until 2027. Or: The lease contract between Hamburg and Czechoslovakia is of 2nd
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Dec 24, 2005
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hamburg: As the lease was arranged only in 1928 the treaty may be kept alive
                                          until 2027. Or: The lease contract between Hamburg and Czechoslovakia is of
                                          2nd November 1929 - the lease may then be kept alive until 2028. A matter
                                          for lawyers to decide which dates apply. The contract says it has to be
                                          "revised" every 10 years, as far as one of the partners wants to revise it.
                                          The first payment was 2 Reichsmark per square metre per year. The Czechs
                                          have missed the chance to step out in 1998/1999, and so have to pay rent at
                                          least until 2008/2009, although CSPL went bankrupt in April 2001.

                                          Since Czechoslovakia ceased to exist in 1939 there was, obviously, no
                                          exclave anymore. The company operating the exclave was re-named
                                          Böhmisch-Mährische Elbeschiffahrtsaktiengesellschaft on April 7, 1939, and
                                          for 6 years there were only Germans in Hamburg harbour. In May 1945 the
                                          company fell back to the Czechs and was nationalized on 22 August 1945.
                                          Insofar we deal here with simple civil law, not with state law (Personal
                                          information from Hamburg's government). Probably the Czechs saw some use in
                                          resurrecting the lease agreement.

                                          Stettin: Any corresponding development, as you found out yourself, would
                                          have involved Czechs and Poles after WWII. Either the Czechs had lost
                                          interest in the meantime, or the Poles did not care (because they had more
                                          important things to do), or the Russians thought this was too complicated,
                                          or among socialist countries there was no need for international treaties
                                          (all being "friends" anyway), or all 4 reasons may apply - all only if there
                                          had been an exclave before at all. The word "irrational" only refers to
                                          Stettin, as the exclave, if it ever existed, would not have made sense
                                          economically right from start.

                                          Also note there is a Czech-FR Germany treaty of 26 January 1988 regulating
                                          traffic on the Elbe. No mentioning therein of a special situation in Hamburg
                                          harbour. Only in article 3, § 3, the right is ceded to Czechoslovakia to
                                          allocate loads in Hamburg to German or Czech carriers, respectively, in a
                                          manner different from the usual 50/50 partition, so that CSPL would earn a
                                          bit more.

                                          Wolfgang

                                          -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                                          Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                                          Auftrag von L. A. Nadybal
                                          Gesendet: Samstag, 24. Dezember 2005 21:48
                                          An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                          Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour


                                          Well, that means then, that the Hamburg leased area would have fallen
                                          prey at some point in the late 20s or early thirties to the political
                                          powers that disregarded the treaty, just like Stettin. Why would
                                          their be a difference in treatment between them. At some point, then,
                                          there must be period in Hamburg's history after 1945 where the lease
                                          was resurrected. But we have no evidence of a lapse. If there was no
                                          lapse, then there was a reason to keep the lease alive (thus
                                          recognizing the provision in Versailles), and we then have a reverse
                                          differentiation in treatment. If keeping them was irrational because
                                          they were meant to be an embarrassment, then why did Hamburg's area
                                          stay leased throughout (if it did)? If there was a lapse, and W
                                          Germany as successor resurrected Hamburg's lease, then why didn't
                                          Poland, as a successor in Stettin, not honor the Czech's former treaty
                                          rights, too?
                                          Len


                                          --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                                          <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > "Why would it have been irrational?" Because in Stettin it did not
                                          serve a
                                          > tangible purpose other than humiliating Germany, in particular not an
                                          > economic purpose, except if the Czechs would have had to pay a rent like
                                          > they do in Hamburg. There was certainly no benefit for Stettin intended
                                          > (knowing the intentions of the allies when putting together the
                                          Versailles
                                          > Treaty).
                                          >
                                          > I heard the Hamburgians would not like to see the Czechs go - they would
                                          > lose a few thousand Euros annually.
                                          >
                                          > Shubh Naya Baras,
                                          > Wolfgang
                                          >
                                          > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                                          > Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                                          > Auftrag von L. A. Nadybal
                                          > Gesendet: Samstag, 24. Dezember 2005 15:29
                                          > An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > You wrote: "My interest in this has to do with the question whether
                                          > the Czechoslovakian government was irrational enough in 1920 to
                                          > implement a paragraph of the Versailles treaty that had been written
                                          > at a time prior to the foundation of Czechoslovakia itself, and
                                          > against all economical wisdom."
                                          >
                                          > Why would it have been irrational?
                                          > I'm curious as to which state it was that the Versaille treaty
                                          > intended the harbor in Stettin to benefit, if the Czech state wasn't
                                          > yet in existence.
                                          >
                                          > The lease period in Hamburg is coming to an end in the next couple of
                                          > years, if the Czechs haven't given it up already, given the bankruptcy
                                          > of the operating company and the unified state of affairs between the
                                          > host and the lessor. The areas was never part of CZ - and "rent" is a
                                          > common feature of leased areas. Titular sovereignty always rests with
                                          > the lessee unless annexation occurs. Guantanamo is Cuban land and the
                                          > US pays "rent". The US acts "as though it were the sovereign", not
                                          > "as the sovereign".
                                          >
                                          > Regards
                                          > Frohe Weihnachten
                                          > Len
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >








                                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        • L. A. Nadybal
                                          Greetings Wolfgang, Thanks for the details - most of which were new to me. My first thought is that we need to look into the lawyer s area to understand what s
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Dec 25, 2005
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Greetings Wolfgang,
                                            Thanks for the details - most of which were new to me.
                                            My first thought is that we need to look into the lawyer's area to
                                            understand what's going on. I think there is an issue with treaty vs.
                                            contract here.

                                            The Versailles treaty seems to start the lease the moment the Germans
                                            acceded to it (1919) and it ends it after 99 years. The "contract"
                                            (if it was between the two states and not involve the operating
                                            company - state owned or not) would seem to be more like a
                                            "zwischenstaatlichen durchführunsvereinbarung". The treaty says it
                                            will operate using the treaty provisions applicable to Freizonen. The
                                            10 year provision applies only, at most, to the

                                            Begrenzung,
                                            Einrichtung,
                                            Art der Ausnutzung
                                            Bedingungen für Verwendung (inkl Pachtpreis)

                                            to be worked out by a three person commission (D-CZ-GB).

                                            Then, the treaty says "Diese Bedingungen [not the lease itself]
                                            koennen [interesting choice of word] alle zehn Jahren in der gleichen
                                            Weise [als wass?] revidiert werden". So, Pachtende itself isn't
                                            negotiable, it seems - 99 years of use have to elapse, dann ist
                                            Schluß. The treaty can be revised or succeeded by a new treaty
                                            extending the 99 years, and maybe the 99 years are interrupted because
                                            of the lapses, how could one know??

                                            In the 99 years, then comes the contract between the CZ government and
                                            it's company - but that is mostly internal not involving D.

                                            I'd be interested in seeing the agreement texts related to this.
                                            Maybe someday when I locate my railway treaty copy, we can do a trade
                                            deal. Do you have a map or description of the "Begrenzung"? I have
                                            two conflicting descriptions of it.

                                            More later.
                                            All the best
                                            LN






                                            --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                                            <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hamburg: As the lease was arranged only in 1928 the treaty may be
                                            kept alive until 2027. Or: The lease contract between Hamburg and
                                            Czechoslovakia is of 2nd November 1929 - the lease may then be kept
                                            alive until 2028.
                                          • Wolfgang Schaub
                                            You make good points, Len. Exactly those are the salient issues (which I did not mention so that the matter does not get over-complicated). There is another
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Dec 25, 2005
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              You make good points, Len. Exactly those are the salient issues (which I did
                                              not mention so that the matter does not get over-complicated).

                                              There is another one: Would the Versailles Treaty still be valid today?
                                              (after so much hassle in between) In other words, would GB stand up and
                                              claim the lease has to be "executed" till the 99 years are over, in case CZ
                                              and D agree to silently forget the matter?

                                              For me the interesting thing is still Szczecin. So far nobody has dared
                                              translating the Polish text, but sooner or later I'll catch a Pole on the
                                              street and ask him to do the job for me against a bottle of wine.

                                              I had forgotten another reason why the Szczecin enclave has not been
                                              resurrected (in case it ever existed): it was a matter between CZ and D;
                                              what the heck have the Poles to do with it? So if CZ wants it resurrected
                                              the Poles simply say no, and that's it.

                                              I saw it coming: You give me the Vennbahn treaty, I give you the Hamburg
                                              stuff. Fair deal.

                                              No, I don't have a Beschreibung of the Begrenzungen, but that is a matter
                                              you may ask the Hamburg Katasteramt to provide (?). You should also know
                                              there are/were 2 enclaves in Hamburg, one at Saalehafen, the other (smaller
                                              one) at Peutehafen. The size has been mentioned in newspapers as "30,000"
                                              sq.m., but it is not clear whether this refers to the Saalehafen enclave or
                                              to both together. The one at Saalehafen carries the house number 40, if I
                                              remember correctly.

                                              (When I was there last, some years ago, the Czech manager - or better:
                                              "director" - said: "No problem, come in, we are packing and will be gone in
                                              a few days, you can do here whatever you like". Nearby, in the oily waters
                                              of the harbour, lay the party boat "Prague" - reminiscence of better days)

                                              Wolfgang

                                              -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                                              Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                                              Auftrag von L. A. Nadybal
                                              Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. Dezember 2005 16:07
                                              An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                              Betreff: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour


                                              Greetings Wolfgang,
                                              Thanks for the details - most of which were new to me.
                                              My first thought is that we need to look into the lawyer's area to
                                              understand what's going on. I think there is an issue with treaty vs.
                                              contract here.

                                              The Versailles treaty seems to start the lease the moment the Germans
                                              acceded to it (1919) and it ends it after 99 years. The "contract"
                                              (if it was between the two states and not involve the operating
                                              company - state owned or not) would seem to be more like a
                                              "zwischenstaatlichen durchführunsvereinbarung". The treaty says it
                                              will operate using the treaty provisions applicable to Freizonen. The
                                              10 year provision applies only, at most, to the

                                              Begrenzung,
                                              Einrichtung,
                                              Art der Ausnutzung
                                              Bedingungen für Verwendung (inkl Pachtpreis)

                                              to be worked out by a three person commission (D-CZ-GB).

                                              Then, the treaty says "Diese Bedingungen [not the lease itself]
                                              koennen [interesting choice of word] alle zehn Jahren in der gleichen
                                              Weise [als wass?] revidiert werden". So, Pachtende itself isn't
                                              negotiable, it seems - 99 years of use have to elapse, dann ist
                                              Schluß. The treaty can be revised or succeeded by a new treaty
                                              extending the 99 years, and maybe the 99 years are interrupted because
                                              of the lapses, how could one know??

                                              In the 99 years, then comes the contract between the CZ government and
                                              it's company - but that is mostly internal not involving D.

                                              I'd be interested in seeing the agreement texts related to this.
                                              Maybe someday when I locate my railway treaty copy, we can do a trade
                                              deal. Do you have a map or description of the "Begrenzung"? I have
                                              two conflicting descriptions of it.

                                              More later.
                                              All the best
                                              LN






                                              --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
                                              <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hamburg: As the lease was arranged only in 1928 the treaty may be
                                              kept alive until 2027. Or: The lease contract between Hamburg and
                                              Czechoslovakia is of 2nd November 1929 - the lease may then be kept
                                              alive until 2028.







                                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            • Pepijn Hendriks
                                              Let me put in my bit as well. Back in I said that I couldn t find out much about the arrangements in
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Dec 27, 2005
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Let me put in my bit as well. Back in
                                                <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/borderpoint/message/123> I said that I
                                                couldn't find out much about the arrangements in Szczecin.

                                                From what I've learnt since:
                                                * Czechoslovakia gave up the rights to their territory in Szczecin in
                                                1956. This refers to the Transport Agreement (called 'Układ
                                                komunikacyjny' in Polish, or 'Dopravní dohoda' in Czech) signed on 13
                                                January 1956 in Prague.
                                                * The Polish version of this agreement can be found at
                                                <http://www.park.pl/prawo/1950-1980/du195700090035.html>; the Czech
                                                version is at
                                                <http://www.mdcr.cz/NR/rdonlyres/8D519E7F-42FF-4A41-A6AD-6753634A5F73/0/v741956.rtf>.

                                                * Unfortunately, neither the Polish nor the Czech versions include all
                                                annexes.
                                                * The Czech version includes a list of treaties which it annuls. Among
                                                those is an earlier agreement, from 15 July 1949, concerning the lease
                                                of areas in the port of Szczecin. I have not been able to find this
                                                document, although from the document that Peter Smaardijk referred to
                                                one can infer that the actual lease takes the form of a contract between
                                                the Szczecin Port Authority and a Czech company called the
                                                Czechoslovak Transport Corporation ('Czechosłowackie Spedycyjne
                                                Towarzystwo Akcyjne' in Polish).
                                                * The same document mentions that another annex to the 1956 agreement
                                                regulated the "assumption of the Czechoslovak area by the Board of the
                                                Port of Szczecin".

                                                For more details about the arrangements in Hamburg (including the
                                                surface area of the lots) please refer to
                                                <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/borderpoint/message/124>.

                                                -Pepijn

                                                > ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
                                                > Van: "Wolfgang Schaub" <Wolfgang.Schaub@...>
                                                > Aan: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Datum: zondag 25 december 2005 17:57:26
                                                > Onderwerp: AW: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                                                >
                                                > You make good points, Len. Exactly those are the salient issues (which I did
                                                > not mention so that the matter does not get over-complicated).
                                                >
                                                > There is another one: Would the Versailles Treaty still be valid today?
                                                > (after so much hassle in between) In other words, would GB stand up and
                                                > claim the lease has to be "executed" till the 99 years are over, in case CZ
                                                > and D agree to silently forget the matter?
                                                >
                                                > For me the interesting thing is still Szczecin. So far nobody has dared
                                                > translating the Polish text, but sooner or later I'll catch a Pole on the
                                                > street and ask him to do the job for me against a bottle of wine.
                                                >
                                                > I had forgotten another reason why the Szczecin enclave has not been
                                                > resurrected (in case it ever existed): it was a matter between CZ and D;
                                                > what the heck have the Poles to do with it? So if CZ wants it resurrected
                                                > the Poles simply say no, and that's it.
                                                >
                                                > I saw it coming: You give me the Vennbahn treaty, I give you the Hamburg
                                                > stuff. Fair deal.
                                                >
                                                > No, I don't have a Beschreibung of the Begrenzungen, but that is a matter
                                                > you may ask the Hamburg Katasteramt to provide (?). You should also know
                                                > there are/were 2 enclaves in Hamburg, one at Saalehafen, the other (smaller
                                                > one) at Peutehafen. The size has been mentioned in newspapers as "30,000"
                                                > sq.m., but it is not clear whether this refers to the Saalehafen enclave or
                                                > to both together. The one at Saalehafen carries the house number 40, if I
                                                > remember correctly.
                                                >
                                                > (When I was there last, some years ago, the Czech manager - or better:
                                                > "director" - said: "No problem, come in, we are packing and will be gone in
                                                > a few days, you can do here whatever you like". Nearby, in the oily waters
                                                > of the harbour, lay the party boat "Prague" - reminiscence of better days)
                                                >
                                                > Wolfgang
                                              • Wolfgang Schaub
                                                Excellent! Many thanks indeed, Pepijn. Still I promise to deliver the full text of http://sedina.pl/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=496&mode=
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Dec 27, 2005
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Excellent! Many thanks indeed, Pepijn.

                                                  Still I promise to deliver the full text of
                                                  http://sedina.pl/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=496&mode=
                                                  thread&order=0&thold=0 and
                                                  http://sedina.pl/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=497&mode=
                                                  thread&order=0&thold=0 whenever I get it translated by a "wilful" Pole.
                                                  Proposals for deals of all sorts can be lodged.

                                                  Wolfgang

                                                  -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                                                  Von: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]Im
                                                  Auftrag von Pepijn Hendriks
                                                  Gesendet: 2005 ???? 27 12, ????????? 11:20
                                                  An: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Betreff: Re: AW: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour



                                                  Let me put in my bit as well. Back in
                                                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/borderpoint/message/123> I said that I
                                                  couldn't find out much about the arrangements in Szczecin.

                                                  From what I've learnt since:
                                                  * Czechoslovakia gave up the rights to their territory in Szczecin in
                                                  1956. This refers to the Transport Agreement (called 'Układ
                                                  komunikacyjny' in Polish, or 'Dopravní dohoda' in Czech) signed on 13
                                                  January 1956 in Prague.
                                                  * The Polish version of this agreement can be found at
                                                  <http://www.park.pl/prawo/1950-1980/du195700090035.html>; the Czech
                                                  version is at
                                                  <http://www.mdcr.cz/NR/rdonlyres/8D519E7F-42FF-4A41-A6AD-6753634A5F73/0/v741
                                                  956.rtf>.

                                                  * Unfortunately, neither the Polish nor the Czech versions include all
                                                  annexes.
                                                  * The Czech version includes a list of treaties which it annuls. Among
                                                  those is an earlier agreement, from 15 July 1949, concerning the lease
                                                  of areas in the port of Szczecin. I have not been able to find this
                                                  document, although from the document that Peter Smaardijk referred to
                                                  one can infer that the actual lease takes the form of a contract between
                                                  the Szczecin Port Authority and a Czech company called the
                                                  Czechoslovak Transport Corporation ('Czechosłowackie Spedycyjne
                                                  Towarzystwo Akcyjne' in Polish).
                                                  * The same document mentions that another annex to the 1956 agreement
                                                  regulated the "assumption of the Czechoslovak area by the Board of the
                                                  Port of Szczecin".

                                                  For more details about the arrangements in Hamburg (including the
                                                  surface area of the lots) please refer to
                                                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/borderpoint/message/124>.

                                                  -Pepijn

                                                  > ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
                                                  > Van: "Wolfgang Schaub" <Wolfgang.Schaub@...>
                                                  > Aan: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Datum: zondag 25 december 2005 17:57:26
                                                  > Onderwerp: AW: [borderpoint] Re: Czech exclave in Szczecin harbour
                                                  >
                                                  > You make good points, Len. Exactly those are the salient issues (which I
                                                  did
                                                  > not mention so that the matter does not get over-complicated).
                                                  >
                                                  > There is another one: Would the Versailles Treaty still be valid today?
                                                  > (after so much hassle in between) In other words, would GB stand up and
                                                  > claim the lease has to be "executed" till the 99 years are over, in case
                                                  CZ
                                                  > and D agree to silently forget the matter?
                                                  >
                                                  > For me the interesting thing is still Szczecin. So far nobody has dared
                                                  > translating the Polish text, but sooner or later I'll catch a Pole on the
                                                  > street and ask him to do the job for me against a bottle of wine.
                                                  >
                                                  > I had forgotten another reason why the Szczecin enclave has not been
                                                  > resurrected (in case it ever existed): it was a matter between CZ and D;
                                                  > what the heck have the Poles to do with it? So if CZ wants it resurrected
                                                  > the Poles simply say no, and that's it.
                                                  >
                                                  > I saw it coming: You give me the Vennbahn treaty, I give you the Hamburg
                                                  > stuff. Fair deal.
                                                  >
                                                  > No, I don't have a Beschreibung of the Begrenzungen, but that is a matter
                                                  > you may ask the Hamburg Katasteramt to provide (?). You should also know
                                                  > there are/were 2 enclaves in Hamburg, one at Saalehafen, the other
                                                  (smaller
                                                  > one) at Peutehafen. The size has been mentioned in newspapers as "30,000"
                                                  > sq.m., but it is not clear whether this refers to the Saalehafen enclave
                                                  or
                                                  > to both together. The one at Saalehafen carries the house number 40, if I
                                                  > remember correctly.
                                                  >
                                                  > (When I was there last, some years ago, the Czech manager - or better:
                                                  > "director" - said: "No problem, come in, we are packing and will be gone
                                                  in
                                                  > a few days, you can do here whatever you like". Nearby, in the oily waters
                                                  > of the harbour, lay the party boat "Prague" - reminiscence of better days)
                                                  >
                                                  > Wolfgang




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