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Re: Hong Kong border (incl. Walled city)

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  • yakov1942
    the walled city actually was no longer exist, now , it was dismantled years before. now , it is a park. There was no border control. Never. Mainland China and
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 5, 2008
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      the walled city actually was no longer exist, now , it was dismantled
      years before. now , it is a park. There was no border control. Never.

      Mainland China and Hong Kong is divided by the Shenzhen River, the only
      marked border is in Northeast Hong Kong called Sha Tou Kok, there is a
      street called "Chung Ying Street" (literally translated as Chinese-
      British Street), in the street there are several border marking stones
      which divided the street into two part, one side is belonging to Hong
      Kong SAR and another part is belonging to mainland China. I can have
      lunch in a restaurant on Hong Kong side and simply buy cloth in the
      opposite chinese shop. - one street belongs to two polities.

      However , for local Hong Kong Citizen and Mainland Chinese it is very
      difficult to apply for the special border permit to enter the street
      because of strict border control policy.
    • L. A. Nadybal
      There was enforcement by the British when something happened inside the Walled City that affected the British. There s a very good book called Unequal
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 5, 2008
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        There was enforcement by the British when something happened inside
        the Walled City that affected the British. There's a very good book
        called Unequal Treaties (which unfortunately I have in storage right
        now with most of my border/exclave materials) that goes into great
        detail about the situation.

        Someone in the Walled City added five floors (I think it was five) to
        one of the Walled City buildings. The total height of the building
        was then higher than the British allowed in the surrounding area. (No
        British limit applied to buildings in the enclave). It was a safety
        measure covering the landing approaches to Kai Tak airport. The
        British simply went in and tore the floors down. The British notified
        the Chinese of the coming action, but the Chinese government had no
        objection (I don't believe it even replied), so nothing prohibited the
        British from simply "invading" the area. Chinese law applied but was
        not exercised or enforced there (there were no Chinese police or
        courts). There was no due process available in the enclave for its
        owners/residents to turn to with which they could counter the British
        action.

        Later, when the British decided to clear the area and tear it down
        completely, the Chinese had no objection. I'd be interested to know
        if the British even consulted the Chinese and to where the residents
        were deported. The Unequal Treaties book was written just before the
        place was torn down, so it doesn't cover it.

        Len



        --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@...> wrote:
        >
        > Was there no law enforcement in the Walled City, or was it the law
        of the jungle?
        >
        > Lowell G. McManus
        > Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: L. A. Nadybal
        > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 7:54 PM
        > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: Hong Kong border (incl. Walled city)
        >
        >
        > There was no Chinese administration in the Walled City - just gangs.
        > There was no marked or controlled border crossing, either - if you
        > wanted to go shopping there, you had to just walk in off the street.
        > LN
        >
      • Lowell G. McManus
        Wow! Did the premises of the former Walled City remain de-jure Chinese territory until the British abandonment of Hong Kong, or was there some earlier
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 5, 2008
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          Wow!  Did the premises of the former Walled City remain de-jure Chinese territory until the British abandonment of Hong Kong, or was there some earlier transfer to British sovereignty?
           
          Lowell G. McManus
          Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 10:17 PM
          Subject: [borderpoint] Re: Hong Kong border (incl. Walled city)

          There was enforcement by the British when something happened inside
          the Walled City that affected the British.  There's a very good book
          called Unequal Treaties (which unfortunately I have in storage right
          now with most of my border/exclave materials) that goes into great
          detail about the situation.

          Someone in the Walled City added five floors (I think it was five) to
          one of the Walled City buildings.  The total height of the building
          was then higher than the British allowed in the surrounding area. (No
          British limit applied to buildings in the enclave).  It was a safety
          measure covering the landing approaches to Kai Tak airport.  The
          British simply went in and tore the floors down. The British notified
          the Chinese of the coming action, but the Chinese government had no
          objection (I don't believe it even replied), so nothing prohibited the
          British from simply "invading" the area.  Chinese law applied but was
          not exercised or enforced there (there were no Chinese police or
          courts).  There was no due process available in the enclave for its
          owners/residents to turn to with which they could counter the British
          action.    

          Later, when the British decided to clear the area and tear it down
          completely, the Chinese had no objection.  I'd be interested to know
          if the British even consulted the Chinese and to where the residents
          were deported.  The Unequal Treaties book was written just before the
          place was torn down, so it doesn't cover it.

          Len

           

          --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@...> wrote:
          >
          > Was there no law enforcement in the Walled City, or was it the law
          of the jungle?
          >
          > Lowell G. McManus
          > Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
          >
          >   ----- Original Message -----
          >   From: L. A. Nadybal
          >   To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
          >   Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 7:54 PM
          >   Subject: [borderpoint] Re: Hong Kong border (incl. Walled city)
          >
          >
          >   There was no Chinese administration in the Walled City - just gangs.
          >   There was no marked or controlled border crossing, either - if you
          >   wanted to go shopping there, you had to just walk in off the street. 
          >   LN
          >




           
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        • Kevin Meynell
          ... The Walled City was torn-down in 1993 with the agreement of the Chinese authorities. I m not sure whether the issue was dealt with in the original
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 6, 2008
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            >Later, when the British decided to clear the area and tear it down
            >completely, the Chinese had no objection. I'd be interested to know
            >if the British even consulted the Chinese and to where the residents
            >were deported.

            The Walled City was torn-down in 1993 with the agreement of the
            Chinese authorities. I'm not sure whether the issue was dealt with in
            the original Sino-British Declaration, but certainly not long afterwards.

            >Did the premises of the former Walled City remain de-jure Chinese
            >territory until the British abandonment of Hong Kong, or was there
            >some earlier transfer to British sovereignty?

            I'd imagine it remained de-jure Chinese until the handover in 1997,
            although for all practical purposes it fell under the jurisdiction of
            the Hong Kong authorities from the mid-1980s onwards.

            Cheers,

            Kevin Meynell
          • L. A. Nadybal
            I ll have to look into that - I don t recall seeing anything in the treaty turning HKK back to China that mentioned sovereignty change over the Walled City
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 6, 2008
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              I'll have to look into that - I don't recall seeing anything in the
              treaty turning HKK back to China that mentioned sovereignty change
              over the Walled City area. I have a Chinese website translation
              (really rough - like you get electronically) that was put up by
              someone who documented the clearing of the site. I'll have to look
              there to see if anything mentions a change prior to the relinquishment
              of HKK by the British or gives details about permission from China.
              It's ironic now that the airport has been moved to an island, that all
              of that occurred. The Walled City was on the Terminal side of the
              airport (inland) and not left or right (or at the end) of the runways,
              which extended into the bay over reclaimed land.

              Earlier in the history of HKK as British, I do recall that the city
              was left in Chinese hands and that there was also an easement from a
              landing spot nearby, over which the Chinese were permitted to pass.
              So, there was some reason for the Chinese having kept the area.

              Len


              --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@...> wrote:
              >
              > Wow! Did the premises of the former Walled City remain de-jure
              Chinese territory until the British abandonment of Hong Kong, or was
              there some earlier transfer to British sovereignty?
              >
              > Lowell G. McManus
              > Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: L. A. Nadybal
              > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 10:17 PM
              > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: Hong Kong border (incl. Walled city)
              >
              >
              > There was enforcement by the British when something happened inside
              > the Walled City that affected the British. There's a very good book
              > called Unequal Treaties (which unfortunately I have in storage right
              > now with most of my border/exclave materials) that goes into great
              > detail about the situation.
              >
              > Someone in the Walled City added five floors (I think it was five) to
              > one of the Walled City buildings. The total height of the building
              > was then higher than the British allowed in the surrounding area. (No
              > British limit applied to buildings in the enclave). It was a safety
              > measure covering the landing approaches to Kai Tak airport. The
              > British simply went in and tore the floors down. The British notified
              > the Chinese of the coming action, but the Chinese government had no
              > objection (I don't believe it even replied), so nothing prohibited the
              > British from simply "invading" the area. Chinese law applied but was
              > not exercised or enforced there (there were no Chinese police or
              > courts). There was no due process available in the enclave for its
              > owners/residents to turn to with which they could counter the British
              > action.
              >
              > Later, when the British decided to clear the area and tear it down
              > completely, the Chinese had no objection. I'd be interested to know
              > if the British even consulted the Chinese and to where the residents
              > were deported. The Unequal Treaties book was written just before the
              > place was torn down, so it doesn't cover it.
              >
              > Len
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Was there no law enforcement in the Walled City, or was it the law
              > of the jungle?
              > >
              > > Lowell G. McManus
              > > Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: L. A. Nadybal
              > > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 7:54 PM
              > > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: Hong Kong border (incl. Walled city)
              > >
              > >
              > > There was no Chinese administration in the Walled City - just
              gangs.
              > > There was no marked or controlled border crossing, either - if you
              > > wanted to go shopping there, you had to just walk in off the
              street.
              > > LN
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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