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Re: [borderpoint] US state boundary markers

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  • Lowell G. McManus
    State boundaries are thoroughly delimited through the American portions of the Great Lakes. County boundaries within the Great Lakes are also well delimited
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 5, 2007
      State boundaries are thoroughly delimited through the American portions of the Great Lakes.  County boundaries within the Great Lakes are also well delimited in most of the affected states.  Among the on-line mapping services, Mapquest at http://www.mapquest.com does an excellent job of showing the county boundaries through the lakes if you zoom in to level 7 or higher.  (Note how Illinois neatly wraps around the northwest corner of Indiana.) 
       
      Lowell G. McManus
      Eagle Pass, Texas, USA 
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 10:32 AM
      Subject: [borderpoint] US state boundary markers

      Check this out
      http://www.boundarystones.org/
      Boundary stones of Washington D.C.

      question about us state borders:
      Are waters on lake Michigen contigous? I mean, i never saw a map with
      state/country borders on lake Michigen (nor Superior etc.)?
    • nj55er
      Guys: This question, which is probably mainly of practical concern to law enforcement agencies and game wardens, is one that the county highpointers have been
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 7, 2007
        Guys: This question, which is probably mainly of practical concern to
        law enforcement agencies and game wardens, is one that the county
        highpointers have been discussing for years. We care because one the
        things we do is attempt to visit contiguous county [highpoints] and
        thus build "globs" of connected and visited counties. These globs can
        and do extend for vast distances, in some cases across the lower 48
        U.S. states and into each state. See completion maps, mine included,
        at cohp.org for examples. In the past, the cohp group had for the most
        part considered counties on opposite sides of major bodies of water,
        most prominently the Great Lakes, as non-contiguous for glob purposes.
        The major criterion used was whether or not the boundary was shown on
        the USGS 7.5' topographic maps. After reading the messages below, I
        reopened the topic with the cohp group, and it is being actively
        discussed right now. What will likely happen is that each person will
        make his own decision about what constitutes contiguity, which is what
        has happened before. In other words, we will agree to disagree.

        Michael Schwartz



        --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@...> wrote:
        >
        > State boundaries are thoroughly delimited through the American
        portions of the Great Lakes. County boundaries within the Great Lakes
        are also well delimited in most of the affected states. Among the
        on-line mapping services, Mapquest at http://www.mapquest.com does an
        excellent job of showing the county boundaries through the lakes if
        you zoom in to level 7 or higher. (Note how Illinois neatly wraps
        around the northwest corner of Indiana.)
        >
        > Lowell G. McManus
        > Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: kubana2005
        > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 10:32 AM
        > Subject: [borderpoint] US state boundary markers
        >
        >
        > Check this out
        > http://www.boundarystones.org/
        > Boundary stones of Washington D.C.
        >
        > question about us state borders:
        > Are waters on lake Michigen contigous? I mean, i never saw a map with
        > state/country borders on lake Michigen (nor Superior etc.)?
        >
      • Lowell G. McManus
        Perhaps it would be helpful to ask some rhetorical questions: Would cross-lake contiguity be an issue at all if your hobby was about boating on the lowest
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 7, 2007
          Perhaps it would be helpful to ask some rhetorical questions:  Would cross-lake contiguity be an issue at all if your hobby was about boating on the lowest water in each county instead of traveling to its highest land.  Also, since county lines do extend across it, why should Lake Michigan make any more difference in contiguity than the Mississippi River where it remains un-bridged between two counties?  How wide is too wide, and how narrow is narrow enough for counties to be considered contiguous across a water body?
           
          Lowell G. McManus
          Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: nj55er
          Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 7:26 AM
          Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

          Guys: This question, which is probably mainly of practical concern to
          law enforcement agencies and game wardens, is one that the county
          highpointers have been discussing for years. We care because one the
          things we do is attempt to visit contiguous county [highpoints] and
          thus build "globs" of connected and visited counties. These globs can
          and do extend for vast distances, in some cases across the lower 48
          U.S. states and into each state. See completion maps, mine included,
          at cohp.org for examples. In the past, the cohp group had for the most
          part considered counties on opposite sides of major bodies of water,
          most prominently the Great Lakes, as non-contiguous for glob purposes.
          The major criterion used was whether or not the boundary was shown on
          the USGS 7.5' topographic maps. After reading the messages below, I
          reopened the topic with the cohp group, and it is being actively
          discussed right now.  What will likely happen is that each person will
          make his own decision about what constitutes contiguity, which is what
          has happened before.  In other words, we will agree to disagree.

          Michael Schwartz
        • nj55er
          Lowell: All good questions. The closest thing to a consensus among the highpointers is five miles as the limiting distance for glob contiguity. This serves
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 8, 2007
            Lowell: All good questions. The closest thing to a consensus among
            the highpointers is five miles as the limiting distance for glob
            contiguity. This serves to eliminate larger lakes, but allows
            counties on the opposite side of major rivers and bays to be
            considered contiguous. Nonetheless, some of our group don't even
            consider San Francisco and Marin Counties in California to be
            contiguous, although the Golden Gate is not even two miles wide.
            Hey, whatever floats your boat.....

            Mike S.


            --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@...> wrote:
            >
            > Perhaps it would be helpful to ask some rhetorical questions: Would
            cross-lake contiguity be an issue at all if your hobby was about
            boating on the lowest water in each county instead of traveling to its
            highest land. Also, since county lines do extend across it, why
            should Lake Michigan make any more difference in contiguity than the
            Mississippi River where it remains un-bridged between two counties?
            How wide is too wide, and how narrow is narrow enough for counties to
            be considered contiguous across a water body?
            >
            > Lowell G. McManus
            > Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: nj55er
            > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 7:26 AM
            > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers
            >
            >
            > Guys: This question, which is probably mainly of practical concern to
            > law enforcement agencies and game wardens, is one that the county
            > highpointers have been discussing for years. We care because one the
            > things we do is attempt to visit contiguous county [highpoints] and
            > thus build "globs" of connected and visited counties. These globs can
            > and do extend for vast distances, in some cases across the lower 48
            > U.S. states and into each state. See completion maps, mine included,
            > at cohp.org for examples. In the past, the cohp group had for the most
            > part considered counties on opposite sides of major bodies of water,
            > most prominently the Great Lakes, as non-contiguous for glob purposes.
            > The major criterion used was whether or not the boundary was shown on
            > the USGS 7.5' topographic maps. After reading the messages below, I
            > reopened the topic with the cohp group, and it is being actively
            > discussed right now. What will likely happen is that each person will
            > make his own decision about what constitutes contiguity, which is what
            > has happened before. In other words, we will agree to disagree.
            >
            > Michael Schwartz
            >
          • kubana2005
            Thanks for replies. The lake thing, is similar to Caspian sea, I guess. I am not sure if the waters in Caspian sea are contigues to country, but Caspian sea
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
              Thanks for replies.

              The lake thing, is similar to Caspian sea, I guess. I am not sure if
              the waters in Caspian sea are contigues to country, but Caspian sea
              (lake) is landlocked.
              Another thing is Ellis island. Some say it's an exclave although i
              don't count it as an exclave.

              --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "nj55er" <spookymike@...> wrote:
              >
              > Lowell: All good questions. The closest thing to a consensus
              among
              > the highpointers is five miles as the limiting distance for glob
              > contiguity. This serves to eliminate larger lakes, but allows
              > counties on the opposite side of major rivers and bays to be
              > considered contiguous. Nonetheless, some of our group don't even
              > consider San Francisco and Marin Counties in California to be
              > contiguous, although the Golden Gate is not even two miles wide.
              > Hey, whatever floats your boat.....
              >
              > Mike S.
              >
              >
              > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@>
              wrote:
              > >
              > > Perhaps it would be helpful to ask some rhetorical questions:
              Would
              > cross-lake contiguity be an issue at all if your hobby was about
              > boating on the lowest water in each county instead of traveling to
              its
              > highest land. Also, since county lines do extend across it, why
              > should Lake Michigan make any more difference in contiguity than
              the
              > Mississippi River where it remains un-bridged between two
              counties?
              > How wide is too wide, and how narrow is narrow enough for counties
              to
              > be considered contiguous across a water body?
              > >
              > > Lowell G. McManus
              > > Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
              > >
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: nj55er
              > > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 7:26 AM
              > > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers
              > >
              > >
              > > Guys: This question, which is probably mainly of practical
              concern to
              > > law enforcement agencies and game wardens, is one that the
              county
              > > highpointers have been discussing for years. We care because
              one the
              > > things we do is attempt to visit contiguous county
              [highpoints] and
              > > thus build "globs" of connected and visited counties. These
              globs can
              > > and do extend for vast distances, in some cases across the
              lower 48
              > > U.S. states and into each state. See completion maps, mine
              included,
              > > at cohp.org for examples. In the past, the cohp group had for
              the most
              > > part considered counties on opposite sides of major bodies of
              water,
              > > most prominently the Great Lakes, as non-contiguous for glob
              purposes.
              > > The major criterion used was whether or not the boundary was
              shown on
              > > the USGS 7.5' topographic maps. After reading the messages
              below, I
              > > reopened the topic with the cohp group, and it is being
              actively
              > > discussed right now. What will likely happen is that each
              person will
              > > make his own decision about what constitutes contiguity, which
              is what
              > > has happened before. In other words, we will agree to
              disagree.
              > >
              > > Michael Schwartz
              > >
              >
            • Flynn, Kevin
              Why not? ________________________________ From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com on behalf of kubana2005 Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 4:41 AM To:
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
                Why not?

                ________________________________

                From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com on behalf of kubana2005
                Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 4:41 AM
                To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers



                Another thing is Ellis island. Some say it's an exclave although i
                don't count it as an exclave.

                .
              • Asher Samuels
                The New York part is definitely an exclave. It s an enclave of New Jersey. As Mike and I discovered in the summer of 2003, the border doesn t touch the
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
                  The New York part is definitely an exclave.  It's an enclave of New Jersey.
                   
                  As Mike and I discovered in the summer of 2003, the border doesn't touch the coastline at any stage.
                   
                  We also discovered that the Park Police aren't great fans of borderpointing.
                   
                  Asher Samuels

                  "Flynn, Kevin" <flynnk@...> wrote:
                  Why not?

                  ________________________________

                  From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com on behalf of kubana2005
                  Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 4:41 AM
                  To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers



                  Another thing is Ellis island. Some say it's an exclave although i
                  don't count it as an exclave.

                  .





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                • Flynn, Kevin
                  I don t know whether Ellis is a NJ exclave (new part) or NY exclave (original part) or a third unique type of creature. New York has jurisdiction over the
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
                    I don't know whether Ellis is a NJ exclave (new part) or NY exclave (original part) or a third unique type of creature. New York has jurisdiction over the surface waters and islands west of its actual state line but not the subsurface or bay bottom; that is the basis for NJ's claim on Ellis Island in the first place -- that it was raised up from the subsurface by filling after the time of the compact, thereby creating dry NJ land above the surface waters. But it is still connected to NJ mainland, only in a parallel "sandwich" of underwater jurisdiction. The actual state line is still out in the middle of the bay. What we have over the water is overlapping sovereignties -- NY up to the NJ docks on the surface and NJ under the water to the state line.
                     
                    At least, this is my interpretation of the situation.
                     
                     
                     
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Asher Samuels
                    Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 8:59 AM
                    To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                    The New York part is definitely an exclave.  It's an enclave of New Jersey.
                     
                    As Mike and I discovered in the summer of 2003, the border doesn't touch the coastline at any stage.
                     
                    We also discovered that the Park Police aren't great fans of borderpointing.
                     
                    Asher Samuels

                    "Flynn, Kevin" <flynnk@rockymountai nnews.com> wrote:
                    Why not?

                    ____________ _________ _________ __

                    From: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com on behalf of kubana2005
                    Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 4:41 AM
                    To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers



                    Another thing is Ellis island. Some say it's an exclave although i
                    don't count it as an exclave.

                    .





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                  • kubana2005
                    Well, if the border doesn t touch sea at any point, then it is definetly and exclave ! I read somewhere that park rangers were angry... do you have any pics of
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
                      Well, if the border doesn't touch sea at any point, then it is
                      definetly and exclave !
                      I read somewhere that park rangers were angry... do you have any pics
                      of Ellis border?
                    • Flynn, Kevin
                      To which are you referring? The border *does* touch the sea. It is the surface of the bay that forms NY s jurisdiction, IIRC. Low water mark on Ellis Island
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
                        To which are you referring?
                         
                        The border *does* touch the sea. It is the surface of the bay that forms NY's jurisdiction, IIRC. Low water mark on Ellis Island would be the beginning of the NY sovereign land, so there is definitely a water-land contiguity.
                         
                        To me, this has always been one of the most confusing aspects of the NY-NJ boundary issue. Not so much Ellis and Bedloes islands above the water west of the NJ line, but NY jurisdiction over the surface of the water on the NJ side as well up to the NJ docks.
                         
                         
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of kubana2005
                        Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 2:30 PM
                        To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                        Well, if the border doesn't touch sea at any point, then it is
                        definetly and exclave !
                        I read somewhere that park rangers were angry... do you have any pics
                        of Ellis border?

                      • Lowell G. McManus
                        Even if the New York portion of Ellis Island did not touch water, it would still be enclaved within the New Jersey waters of a tidal estuary. Lowell G. McManus
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
                          Even if the New York portion of Ellis Island did not touch water, it would still be enclaved within the New Jersey waters of a tidal estuary.
                           
                          Lowell G. McManus
                          Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 3:29 PM
                          Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                          Well, if the border doesn't touch sea at any point, then it is
                          definetly and exclave !
                          I read somewhere that park rangers were angry... do you have any pics
                          of Ellis border?
                        • Lowell G. McManus
                          Where to begin??? No sovereignties overlap in New York Harbor, but jurisdictions do overlap some sovereignty. Both New York and New Jersey have separate areas
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
                            Where to begin???
                             
                            No sovereignties overlap in New York Harbor, but jurisdictions do overlap some sovereignty.  Both New York and New Jersey have separate areas of jurisdiction that do overlap some of the sovereign waters of the other under an interstate compact.  (This is primarily for the regulation of navigation and health matters on vessels.)  The original Ellis Island and the one that is now Liberty Island were enclaves of New York sovereignty within New Jersey sovereign waters since colonial times and have nothing to do with the interstate compact that established the areas of jurisdiction.  The landfilled area that enlarged the original Ellis Island on all sides was claimed by New York on the theory that it enlarged the New York island with New York soil that came from excavation of the subways.  The Supremes didn't buy it and gave all of the landfilled portion to New Jersey (reasoning that the raising of the New Jersey water bottom above the surface did not alter its sovereignty).
                             
                            If you want, I can dig out web links to the interstate compact and the Supreme Court decree for you.
                             
                            Lowell G. McManus
                            Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 11:33 AM
                            Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                            I don't know whether Ellis is a NJ exclave (new part) or NY exclave (original part) or a third unique type of creature. New York has jurisdiction over the surface waters and islands west of its actual state line but not the subsurface or bay bottom; that is the basis for NJ's claim on Ellis Island in the first place -- that it was raised up from the subsurface by filling after the time of the compact, thereby creating dry NJ land above the surface waters. But it is still connected to NJ mainland, only in a parallel "sandwich" of underwater jurisdiction. The actual state line is still out in the middle of the bay. What we have over the water is overlapping sovereignties -- NY up to the NJ docks on the surface and NJ under the water to the state line.
                             
                            At least, this is my interpretation of the situation.
                             
                             
                             
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Asher Samuels
                            Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 8:59 AM
                            To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                            The New York part is definitely an exclave.  It's an enclave of New Jersey.
                             
                            As Mike and I discovered in the summer of 2003, the border doesn't touch the coastline at any stage.
                             
                            We also discovered that the Park Police aren't great fans of borderpointing.
                             
                            Asher Samuels

                            "Flynn, Kevin" <flynnk@rockymountai nnews.com> wrote:
                            Why not?

                            ____________ _________ _________ __

                            From: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com on behalf of kubana2005
                            Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 4:41 AM
                            To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                            Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers



                            Another thing is Ellis island. Some say it's an exclave although i
                            don't count it as an exclave.

                            .





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                          • Lowell G. McManus
                            What I meant to say was: Even if the New York portion of Ellis Island DID touch water [which it does not], it would still be enclaved within the New Jersey
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
                               
                              What I meant to say was:
                               
                                      "Even if the New York portion of Ellis Island DID touch water [which it does not], it would still be enclaved within the New Jersey waters of a tidal estuary."
                               
                              Lowell G. McManus
                              Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                               
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 4:11 PM
                              Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                              Even if the New York portion of Ellis Island did not touch water, it would still be enclaved within the New Jersey waters of a tidal estuary.
                               
                              Lowell G. McManus
                              Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                            • Arif Samad
                              I obviously agree with Lowell, but I am guessing some people are confusing Ellis Island with Liberty Island and some people are confusing whether it is just
                              Message 14 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
                                I obviously agree with Lowell, but I am guessing some people are confusing Ellis Island with Liberty Island and some people are confusing whether it is just jurisdiction on the bay.
                                First of all, in Liberty Island, as there are no landfilled area, the border is at the water edge.  The pier of Liberty Island may be in New Jersey, but otherwise the island is totally in New York.  Those who does not want to think Likoma Islands as exclaves will also not think of Liberty Island as exclaves.  In Ellis Island, the landfilled area totally surrounds the the original portion thus it is a definite enclave and exclave.
                                Secondly, the boundary is definitely state sovereignty and more than jurisdiction.  As real sovereignty is only reserved for independent countries, somebody can suggest that the border is only jurisdictional on the bay.  But that only works if we take all borders in America as jurisdictional only.
                                Arif
                                 
                                "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@...> wrote:
                                Where to begin???
                                 
                                No sovereignties overlap in New York Harbor, but jurisdictions do overlap some sovereignty.  Both New York and New Jersey have separate areas of jurisdiction that do overlap some of the sovereign waters of the other under an interstate compact.  (This is primarily for the regulation of navigation and health matters on vessels.)  The original Ellis Island and the one that is now Liberty Island were enclaves of New York sovereignty within New Jersey sovereign waters since colonial times and have nothing to do with the interstate compact that established the areas of jurisdiction.  The landfilled area that enlarged the original Ellis Island on all sides was claimed by New York on the theory that it enlarged the New York island with New York soil that came from excavation of the subways.  The Supremes didn't buy it and gave all of the landfilled portion to New Jersey (reasoning that the raising of the New Jersey water bottom above the surface did not alter its sovereignty) .
                                 
                                If you want, I can dig out web links to the interstate compact and the Supreme Court decree for you.
                                 
                                Lowell G. McManus
                                Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 11:33 AM
                                Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                                I don't know whether Ellis is a NJ exclave (new part) or NY exclave (original part) or a third unique type of creature. New York has jurisdiction over the surface waters and islands west of its actual state line but not the subsurface or bay bottom; that is the basis for NJ's claim on Ellis Island in the first place -- that it was raised up from the subsurface by filling after the time of the compact, thereby creating dry NJ land above the surface waters. But it is still connected to NJ mainland, only in a parallel "sandwich" of underwater jurisdiction. The actual state line is still out in the middle of the bay. What we have over the water is overlapping sovereignties -- NY up to the NJ docks on the surface and NJ under the water to the state line.
                                 
                                At least, this is my interpretation of the situation.
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:borderpoint @yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Asher Samuels
                                Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 8:59 AM
                                To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                                Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                                The New York part is definitely an exclave.  It's an enclave of New Jersey.
                                 
                                As Mike and I discovered in the summer of 2003, the border doesn't touch the coastline at any stage.
                                 
                                We also discovered that the Park Police aren't great fans of borderpointing.
                                 
                                Asher Samuels

                                "Flynn, Kevin" <flynnk@rockymountai nnews.com> wrote:
                                Why not?

                                ____________ _________ _________ __

                                From: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com on behalf of kubana2005
                                Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 4:41 AM
                                To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                                Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers



                                Another thing is Ellis island. Some say it's an exclave although i
                                don't count it as an exclave.

                                .





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                              • Lowell G. McManus
                                Arif, Thanks for the agreement. I d like to clarify from the American viewpoint your statement about real sovereignty being reserved for independent countries.
                                Message 15 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
                                  Arif,
                                   
                                  Thanks for the agreement.
                                   
                                  I'd like to clarify from the American viewpoint your statement about real sovereignty being reserved for independent countries.  In the USA, which is a republic, real sovereignty resides in the people.  The people of the 13 original states formed sovereign governments as they fought for their independence from Great Britain.  Those 13 governments first formed a loose confederation, then "a more perfect Union" by ceding certain limited aspects of their sovereignty to a central government while reserving other aspects for themselves and their people.  Our Constitution allows the admission of additional states to the Union.  One of those subsequent states (Texas) came directly into that Union as an internationally recognized sovereign independent nation, but the other 36 states were admitted after other states or the Congress had legally enabled residents of particular areas under their respective sovereignties to exercise inherent popular sovereignty to organize new governments and petition for admission to the Union on a footing equal in every way to that of the original states.  Thus, each American state theoretically retains all of the sovereignty that flows in a republican manner from its own people,  except for the certain limited aspects thereof that are ceded to the central government in the Constitution.
                                   
                                  So, New York and New Jersey have sovereignty over their respective waters and lands, just as surely as any nation has over its own.
                                   
                                  An interesting case study in state sovereignty occurred in 1907 when the Congress admitted the State of Oklahoma to the Union with a federal legal requirement that its capital should forever remain at Guthrie.  The state soon moved it capital to Oklahoma City, and the people of Guthrie sued.  The United States Supreme Court ruled that the state's sovereignty came from its own people, not from the Congress, that it was equal to every other state, that it could have its capital wherever it pleased, and that the Congress lacked any authority to interfere.
                                   
                                  Lowell G. McManus
                                  Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                                   
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 6:54 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                                  I obviously agree with Lowell, but I am guessing some people are confusing Ellis Island with Liberty Island and some people are confusing whether it is just jurisdiction on the bay.
                                  First of all, in Liberty Island, as there are no landfilled area, the border is at the water edge.  The pier of Liberty Island may be in New Jersey, but otherwise the island is totally in New York.  Those who does not want to think Likoma Islands as exclaves will also not think of Liberty Island as exclaves.  In Ellis Island, the landfilled area totally surrounds the the original portion thus it is a definite enclave and exclave.
                                  Secondly, the boundary is definitely state sovereignty and more than jurisdiction.  As real sovereignty is only reserved for independent countries, somebody can suggest that the border is only jurisdictional on the bay.  But that only works if we take all borders in America as jurisdictional only.
                                  Arif
                                   
                                  "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@...> wrote:
                                  Where to begin???
                                   
                                  No sovereignties overlap in New York Harbor, but jurisdictions do overlap some sovereignty.  Both New York and New Jersey have separate areas of jurisdiction that do overlap some of the sovereign waters of the other under an interstate compact.  (This is primarily for the regulation of navigation and health matters on vessels.)  The original Ellis Island and the one that is now Liberty Island were enclaves of New York sovereignty within New Jersey sovereign waters since colonial times and have nothing to do with the interstate compact that established the areas of jurisdiction.  The landfilled area that enlarged the original Ellis Island on all sides was claimed by New York on the theory that it enlarged the New York island with New York soil that came from excavation of the subways.  The Supremes didn't buy it and gave all of the landfilled portion to New Jersey (reasoning that the raising of the New Jersey water bottom above the surface did not alter its sovereignty) .
                                   
                                  If you want, I can dig out web links to the interstate compact and the Supreme Court decree for you.
                                   
                                  Lowell G. McManus
                                  Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                                   
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 11:33 AM
                                  Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                                  I don't know whether Ellis is a NJ exclave (new part) or NY exclave (original part) or a third unique type of creature. New York has jurisdiction over the surface waters and islands west of its actual state line but not the subsurface or bay bottom; that is the basis for NJ's claim on Ellis Island in the first place -- that it was raised up from the subsurface by filling after the time of the compact, thereby creating dry NJ land above the surface waters. But it is still connected to NJ mainland, only in a parallel "sandwich" of underwater jurisdiction. The actual state line is still out in the middle of the bay. What we have over the water is overlapping sovereignties -- NY up to the NJ docks on the surface and NJ under the water to the state line.
                                   
                                  At least, this is my interpretation of the situation.
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:borderpoint @yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Asher Samuels
                                  Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 8:59 AM
                                  To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                                  The New York part is definitely an exclave.  It's an enclave of New Jersey.
                                   
                                  As Mike and I discovered in the summer of 2003, the border doesn't touch the coastline at any stage.
                                   
                                  We also discovered that the Park Police aren't great fans of borderpointing.
                                   
                                  Asher Samuels

                                  "Flynn, Kevin" <flynnk@rockymountai nnews.com> wrote:
                                  Why not?

                                  ____________ _________ _________ __

                                  From: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com on behalf of kubana2005
                                  Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 4:41 AM
                                  To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers



                                  Another thing is Ellis island. Some say it's an exclave although i
                                  don't count it as an exclave.

                                  .





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                                • Kevin Meynell
                                  ... If the states were truly sovereign though, they would be able to secede from the union if they wished, which is apparently not allowed. Cheers, Kevin
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Dec 11, 2007
                                    >Thus, each American state theoretically retains all of the
                                    >sovereignty that flows in a republican manner from its own
                                    >people, except for the certain limited aspects thereof that are
                                    >ceded to the central government in the Constitution.

                                    If the states were truly sovereign though, they would be able to
                                    secede from the union if they wished, which is apparently not allowed.

                                    Cheers,

                                    Kevin Meynell
                                  • nj55er
                                    Guys, As far as we New Jerseyans are concerned, the rest of the U.S.A. is merely an exclave of our much maligned state. Everywhere one travels in the U.S.
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Dec 11, 2007
                                      Guys,

                                      As far as we New Jerseyans are concerned, the rest of the U.S.A. is
                                      merely an exclave of our much maligned state. Everywhere one travels
                                      in the U.S. there are many many New Jersey expatriates, and if we
                                      voted as a bloc, we could probably take over the country. Don't
                                      believe me?--Fuhgettaboutit!

                                      Mike S.


                                      --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Where to begin???
                                      >
                                      > No sovereignties overlap in New York Harbor, but jurisdictions do
                                      overlap some sovereignty. Both New York and New Jersey have separate
                                      areas of jurisdiction that do overlap some of the sovereign waters of
                                      the other under an interstate compact. (This is primarily for the
                                      regulation of navigation and health matters on vessels.) The original
                                      Ellis Island and the one that is now Liberty Island were enclaves of
                                      New York sovereignty within New Jersey sovereign waters since colonial
                                      times and have nothing to do with the interstate compact that
                                      established the areas of jurisdiction. The landfilled area that
                                      enlarged the original Ellis Island on all sides was claimed by New
                                      York on the theory that it enlarged the New York island with New York
                                      soil that came from excavation of the subways. The Supremes didn't
                                      buy it and gave all of the landfilled portion to New Jersey (reasoning
                                      that the raising of the New Jersey water bottom above the surface did
                                      not alter its sovereignty).
                                      >
                                      > If you want, I can dig out web links to the interstate compact and
                                      the Supreme Court decree for you.
                                      >
                                      > Lowell G. McManus
                                      > Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: Flynn, Kevin
                                      > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 11:33 AM
                                      > Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I don't know whether Ellis is a NJ exclave (new part) or NY
                                      exclave (original part) or a third unique type of creature. New York
                                      has jurisdiction over the surface waters and islands west of its
                                      actual state line but not the subsurface or bay bottom; that is the
                                      basis for NJ's claim on Ellis Island in the first place -- that it was
                                      raised up from the subsurface by filling after the time of the
                                      compact, thereby creating dry NJ land above the surface waters. But it
                                      is still connected to NJ mainland, only in a parallel "sandwich" of
                                      underwater jurisdiction. The actual state line is still out in the
                                      middle of the bay. What we have over the water is overlapping
                                      sovereignties -- NY up to the NJ docks on the surface and NJ under the
                                      water to the state line.
                                      >
                                      > At least, this is my interpretation of the situation.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                      [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Asher Samuels
                                      > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 8:59 AM
                                      > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > The New York part is definitely an exclave. It's an enclave of
                                      New Jersey.
                                      >
                                      > As Mike and I discovered in the summer of 2003, the border
                                      doesn't touch the coastline at any stage.
                                      >
                                      > We also discovered that the Park Police aren't great fans of
                                      borderpointing.
                                      >
                                      > Asher Samuels
                                      >
                                      > "Flynn, Kevin" <flynnk@...> wrote:
                                      > Why not?
                                      >
                                      > ________________________________
                                      >
                                      > From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com on behalf of kubana2005
                                      > Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 4:41 AM
                                      > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Another thing is Ellis island. Some say it's an exclave
                                      although i
                                      > don't count it as an exclave.
                                      >
                                      > .
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                                      >
                                    • Lowell G. McManus
                                      The question at to whether the states cession of certain aspects of their sovereignty to the central government is revocable or irrevocable was the
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Dec 11, 2007
                                        The question at to whether the states' cession of certain aspects of their sovereignty to the central government is revocable or irrevocable was the constitutional question that led to the war of 1861-1865.  (Those who thought it revocable saw that war as a war for independence, while those who thought it irrevocable saw it as a civil war.)  The question was never settled judicially, but it was settled militarily.
                                         
                                        Since the conduct of foreign affairs is one of the few powers constitutionally reserved to the federal government and prohibited to the states, the federal government can be the only USA sovereignty in the eyes of other nations, but the states still retain certain aspects of their sovereignty in relation to one another and to the federal government.
                                         
                                        Going back to my previous post challenging the notion of "full autonomy" in the absence of sovereignty, the American states could be considered partially autonomous and in a situation of shared sovereignty with a federal government of their own mutual creation.
                                         
                                        There are some other federated nations in the world where the federative units have considerably greater degrees of constitutional autonomy than do the American states.  I think that the Swiss cantons and the Australian states would be prime examples.
                                         
                                        Lowell G. McManus
                                        Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                                         
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 4:37 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [borderpoint] US state boundary markers


                                        >Thus, each American state theoretically retains all of the
                                        >sovereignty that flows in a republican manner from its own
                                        >people,  except for the certain limited aspects thereof that are
                                        >ceded to the central government in the Constitution.

                                        If the states were truly sovereign though, they would be able to
                                        secede from the union if they wished, which is apparently not allowed.

                                        Cheers,

                                        Kevin Meynell



                                         
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                                      • Kevin Meynell
                                        ... We had this discussion a while back. Whilst it seems to be accepted wisdom that US states can t secede from the union, this is not stated in the US
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Dec 11, 2007
                                          >The question was never settled judicially, but it was settled militarily.

                                          We had this discussion a while back. Whilst it seems to be accepted
                                          wisdom that US states can't secede from the union, this is not stated
                                          in the US constitution as far as I know.

                                          In the end, military might often settles most points of legal
                                          argument, but that doesn't answer the question of whether secession
                                          is actually permitted under the US constitution (let's say if Vermont
                                          decided to do so).

                                          >Going back to my previous post challenging the notion of "full
                                          >autonomy" in the absence of sovereignty, the American states could
                                          >be considered partially autonomous and in a situation of shared
                                          >sovereignty with a federal government of their own mutual creation.

                                          It is quite possible for any sovereign country to delegate powers to
                                          a wider entity, as indeed all the EU member states do. That does not
                                          make them any less sovereign as presumably they could cede from the
                                          wider entity if they wished. However, if the relinquishing of certain
                                          powers is irrevocable, then I'd say they are no longer sovereign even
                                          if many things are still guaranteed to them ;-)

                                          >I think that the Swiss cantons and the Australian states would be
                                          >prime examples.

                                          Western Australia actually did vote to secede from the Commonwealth
                                          of Australia in 1933, but it was still legally a colony of the UK who
                                          rejected the request.

                                          Cheers,

                                          Kevin Meynell
                                        • Lowell G. McManus
                                          The first central government formed by the 13 original states in 1781 under the Articles of Confederation was a perpetual Union. When the Articles were
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Dec 11, 2007
                                            The first central government formed by the 13 original states in 1781 under the Articles of Confederation was a "perpetual Union."  When the Articles were succeeded by the Constitution in 1789, that language was changed to "a more perfect Union."  You are correct that the Constitution is silent on whether states may secede (take back)those limited aspects of sovereignty that they ceded (gave) to the federal government.  Those who have argued in favor of secession point out that the Constitution does say (paraphrasing here) that states can do anything that the Constitution doesn't say that they can't do.
                                             
                                            You are also correct that military might often settles legal points, and this one was historically settled in a war that killed more Americans than ALL OTHER WARS IN OUR HISTORY PUT TOGETHER.  I, like many Americans, had ancestors who fought on both sides of that war.  I find it curious that the Constitution was not amended to clarify the question, when other issues that had contributed toward the breakup of the Union were addressed in three amendments after the war's end.
                                             
                                            Lowell G. McManus
                                            Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                                             
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 10:39 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [borderpoint] US state boundary markers


                                            >The question was never settled judicially, but it was settled militarily.

                                            We had this discussion a while back. Whilst it seems to be accepted
                                            wisdom that US states can't secede from the union, this is not stated
                                            in the US constitution as far as I know.

                                            In the end, military might often settles most points of legal
                                            argument, but that doesn't answer the question of whether secession
                                            is actually permitted under the US constitution (let's say if Vermont
                                            decided to do so).

                                            >Going back to my previous post challenging the notion of "full
                                            >autonomy" in the absence of sovereignty, the American states could
                                            >be considered partially autonomous and in a situation of shared
                                            >sovereignty with a federal government of their own mutual creation.

                                            It is quite possible for any sovereign country to delegate powers to
                                            a wider entity, as indeed all the EU member states do. That does not
                                            make them any less sovereign as presumably they could cede from the
                                            wider entity if they wished. However, if the relinquishing of certain
                                            powers is irrevocable, then I'd say they are no longer sovereign even
                                            if many things are still guaranteed to them ;-)

                                            >I think that the Swiss cantons and the Australian states would be
                                            >prime examples.

                                            Western Australia actually did vote to secede from the Commonwealth
                                            of Australia in 1933, but it was still legally a colony of the UK who
                                            rejected the request.

                                            Cheers,

                                            Kevin Meynell



                                             
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                                          • Daryl Brown
                                            Sounds like a little of that Jersey attitude is showing through!! Became well aquainted with that when in NYC a few years back, and stayed across the river
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Dec 11, 2007
                                              Sounds like a little of that "Jersey" attitude is showing through!!  Became well aquainted with that when in NYC a few years back, and stayed across the river from Manhattan to get an affordable hotel room.  I put it down to New Jersey's collective feeling of being inferior and overshadowed by the big apple right next door?
                                               
                                              Daryl

                                              ----- Original Message ----
                                              From: nj55er <spookymike@...>
                                              To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 5:36:55 AM
                                              Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                                              Guys,

                                              As far as we New Jerseyans are concerned, the rest of the U.S.A. is
                                              merely an exclave of our much maligned state. Everywhere one travels
                                              in the U.S. there are many many New Jersey expatriates, and if we
                                              voted as a bloc, we could probably take over the country. Don't
                                              believe me?--Fuhgettaboutit !

                                              Mike S.

                                              --- In borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com, "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Where to begin???
                                              >
                                              > No sovereignties overlap in New York Harbor, but jurisdictions do
                                              overlap some sovereignty. Both New York and New Jersey have separate
                                              areas of jurisdiction that do overlap some of the sovereign waters of
                                              the other under an interstate compact. (This is primarily for the
                                              regulation of navigation and health matters on vessels.) The original
                                              Ellis Island and the one that is now Liberty Island were enclaves of
                                              New York sovereignty within New Jersey sovereign waters since colonial
                                              times and have nothing to do with the interstate compact that
                                              established the areas of jurisdiction. The landfilled area that
                                              enlarged the original Ellis Island on all sides was claimed by New
                                              York on the theory that it enlarged the New York island with New York
                                              soil that came from excavation of the subways. The Supremes didn't
                                              buy it and gave all of the landfilled portion to New Jersey (reasoning
                                              that the raising of the New Jersey water bottom above the surface did
                                              not alter its sovereignty) .
                                              >
                                              > If you want, I can dig out web links to the interstate compact and
                                              the Supreme Court decree for you.
                                              >
                                              > Lowell G. McManus
                                              > Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > From: Flynn, Kevin
                                              > To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                                              > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 11:33 AM
                                              > Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I don't know whether Ellis is a NJ exclave (new part) or NY
                                              exclave (original part) or a third unique type of creature. New York
                                              has jurisdiction over the surface waters and islands west of its
                                              actual state line but not the subsurface or bay bottom; that is the
                                              basis for NJ's claim on Ellis Island in the first place -- that it was
                                              raised up from the subsurface by filling after the time of the
                                              compact, thereby creating dry NJ land above the surface waters. But it
                                              is still connected to NJ mainland, only in a parallel "sandwich" of
                                              underwater jurisdiction. The actual state line is still out in the
                                              middle of the bay. What we have over the water is overlapping
                                              sovereignties -- NY up to the NJ docks on the surface and NJ under the
                                              water to the state line.
                                              >
                                              > At least, this is my interpretation of the situation.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > -----Original Message-----
                                              > From: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                                              [mailto:borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Asher Samuels
                                              > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 8:59 AM
                                              > To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                                              > Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > The New York part is definitely an exclave. It's an enclave of
                                              New Jersey.
                                              >
                                              > As Mike and I discovered in the summer of 2003, the border
                                              doesn't touch the coastline at any stage.
                                              >
                                              > We also discovered that the Park Police aren't great fans of
                                              borderpointing.
                                              >
                                              > Asher Samuels
                                              >
                                              > "Flynn, Kevin" <flynnk@...> wrote:
                                              > Why not?
                                              >
                                              > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                              >
                                              > From: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com on behalf of kubana2005
                                              > Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 4:41 AM
                                              > To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                                              > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Another thing is Ellis island. Some say it's an exclave
                                              although i
                                              > don't count it as an exclave.
                                              >
                                              > .
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                              > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                                              >




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