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US state boundary markers

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  • kubana2005
    Check this out http://www.boundarystones.org/ Boundary stones of Washington D.C. question about us state borders: Are waters on lake Michigen contigous? I
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 5, 2007
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      Check this out
      http://www.boundarystones.org/
      Boundary stones of Washington D.C.

      question about us state borders:
      Are waters on lake Michigen contigous? I mean, i never saw a map with
      state/country borders on lake Michigen (nor Superior etc.)?
    • Lowell G. McManus
      State boundaries are thoroughly delimited through the American portions of the Great Lakes. County boundaries within the Great Lakes are also well delimited
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 5, 2007
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        State boundaries are thoroughly delimited through the American portions of the Great Lakes.  County boundaries within the Great Lakes are also well delimited in most of the affected states.  Among the on-line mapping services, Mapquest at http://www.mapquest.com does an excellent job of showing the county boundaries through the lakes if you zoom in to level 7 or higher.  (Note how Illinois neatly wraps around the northwest corner of Indiana.) 
         
        Lowell G. McManus
        Eagle Pass, Texas, USA 
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 10:32 AM
        Subject: [borderpoint] US state boundary markers

        Check this out
        http://www.boundarystones.org/
        Boundary stones of Washington D.C.

        question about us state borders:
        Are waters on lake Michigen contigous? I mean, i never saw a map with
        state/country borders on lake Michigen (nor Superior etc.)?
      • nj55er
        Guys: This question, which is probably mainly of practical concern to law enforcement agencies and game wardens, is one that the county highpointers have been
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 7, 2007
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          Guys: This question, which is probably mainly of practical concern to
          law enforcement agencies and game wardens, is one that the county
          highpointers have been discussing for years. We care because one the
          things we do is attempt to visit contiguous county [highpoints] and
          thus build "globs" of connected and visited counties. These globs can
          and do extend for vast distances, in some cases across the lower 48
          U.S. states and into each state. See completion maps, mine included,
          at cohp.org for examples. In the past, the cohp group had for the most
          part considered counties on opposite sides of major bodies of water,
          most prominently the Great Lakes, as non-contiguous for glob purposes.
          The major criterion used was whether or not the boundary was shown on
          the USGS 7.5' topographic maps. After reading the messages below, I
          reopened the topic with the cohp group, and it is being actively
          discussed right now. What will likely happen is that each person will
          make his own decision about what constitutes contiguity, which is what
          has happened before. In other words, we will agree to disagree.

          Michael Schwartz



          --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@...> wrote:
          >
          > State boundaries are thoroughly delimited through the American
          portions of the Great Lakes. County boundaries within the Great Lakes
          are also well delimited in most of the affected states. Among the
          on-line mapping services, Mapquest at http://www.mapquest.com does an
          excellent job of showing the county boundaries through the lakes if
          you zoom in to level 7 or higher. (Note how Illinois neatly wraps
          around the northwest corner of Indiana.)
          >
          > Lowell G. McManus
          > Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: kubana2005
          > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 10:32 AM
          > Subject: [borderpoint] US state boundary markers
          >
          >
          > Check this out
          > http://www.boundarystones.org/
          > Boundary stones of Washington D.C.
          >
          > question about us state borders:
          > Are waters on lake Michigen contigous? I mean, i never saw a map with
          > state/country borders on lake Michigen (nor Superior etc.)?
          >
        • Lowell G. McManus
          Perhaps it would be helpful to ask some rhetorical questions: Would cross-lake contiguity be an issue at all if your hobby was about boating on the lowest
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 7, 2007
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            Perhaps it would be helpful to ask some rhetorical questions:  Would cross-lake contiguity be an issue at all if your hobby was about boating on the lowest water in each county instead of traveling to its highest land.  Also, since county lines do extend across it, why should Lake Michigan make any more difference in contiguity than the Mississippi River where it remains un-bridged between two counties?  How wide is too wide, and how narrow is narrow enough for counties to be considered contiguous across a water body?
             
            Lowell G. McManus
            Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: nj55er
            Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 7:26 AM
            Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

            Guys: This question, which is probably mainly of practical concern to
            law enforcement agencies and game wardens, is one that the county
            highpointers have been discussing for years. We care because one the
            things we do is attempt to visit contiguous county [highpoints] and
            thus build "globs" of connected and visited counties. These globs can
            and do extend for vast distances, in some cases across the lower 48
            U.S. states and into each state. See completion maps, mine included,
            at cohp.org for examples. In the past, the cohp group had for the most
            part considered counties on opposite sides of major bodies of water,
            most prominently the Great Lakes, as non-contiguous for glob purposes.
            The major criterion used was whether or not the boundary was shown on
            the USGS 7.5' topographic maps. After reading the messages below, I
            reopened the topic with the cohp group, and it is being actively
            discussed right now.  What will likely happen is that each person will
            make his own decision about what constitutes contiguity, which is what
            has happened before.  In other words, we will agree to disagree.

            Michael Schwartz
          • nj55er
            Lowell: All good questions. The closest thing to a consensus among the highpointers is five miles as the limiting distance for glob contiguity. This serves
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 8, 2007
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              Lowell: All good questions. The closest thing to a consensus among
              the highpointers is five miles as the limiting distance for glob
              contiguity. This serves to eliminate larger lakes, but allows
              counties on the opposite side of major rivers and bays to be
              considered contiguous. Nonetheless, some of our group don't even
              consider San Francisco and Marin Counties in California to be
              contiguous, although the Golden Gate is not even two miles wide.
              Hey, whatever floats your boat.....

              Mike S.


              --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@...> wrote:
              >
              > Perhaps it would be helpful to ask some rhetorical questions: Would
              cross-lake contiguity be an issue at all if your hobby was about
              boating on the lowest water in each county instead of traveling to its
              highest land. Also, since county lines do extend across it, why
              should Lake Michigan make any more difference in contiguity than the
              Mississippi River where it remains un-bridged between two counties?
              How wide is too wide, and how narrow is narrow enough for counties to
              be considered contiguous across a water body?
              >
              > Lowell G. McManus
              > Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: nj55er
              > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 7:26 AM
              > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers
              >
              >
              > Guys: This question, which is probably mainly of practical concern to
              > law enforcement agencies and game wardens, is one that the county
              > highpointers have been discussing for years. We care because one the
              > things we do is attempt to visit contiguous county [highpoints] and
              > thus build "globs" of connected and visited counties. These globs can
              > and do extend for vast distances, in some cases across the lower 48
              > U.S. states and into each state. See completion maps, mine included,
              > at cohp.org for examples. In the past, the cohp group had for the most
              > part considered counties on opposite sides of major bodies of water,
              > most prominently the Great Lakes, as non-contiguous for glob purposes.
              > The major criterion used was whether or not the boundary was shown on
              > the USGS 7.5' topographic maps. After reading the messages below, I
              > reopened the topic with the cohp group, and it is being actively
              > discussed right now. What will likely happen is that each person will
              > make his own decision about what constitutes contiguity, which is what
              > has happened before. In other words, we will agree to disagree.
              >
              > Michael Schwartz
              >
            • kubana2005
              Thanks for replies. The lake thing, is similar to Caspian sea, I guess. I am not sure if the waters in Caspian sea are contigues to country, but Caspian sea
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
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                Thanks for replies.

                The lake thing, is similar to Caspian sea, I guess. I am not sure if
                the waters in Caspian sea are contigues to country, but Caspian sea
                (lake) is landlocked.
                Another thing is Ellis island. Some say it's an exclave although i
                don't count it as an exclave.

                --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "nj55er" <spookymike@...> wrote:
                >
                > Lowell: All good questions. The closest thing to a consensus
                among
                > the highpointers is five miles as the limiting distance for glob
                > contiguity. This serves to eliminate larger lakes, but allows
                > counties on the opposite side of major rivers and bays to be
                > considered contiguous. Nonetheless, some of our group don't even
                > consider San Francisco and Marin Counties in California to be
                > contiguous, although the Golden Gate is not even two miles wide.
                > Hey, whatever floats your boat.....
                >
                > Mike S.
                >
                >
                > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@>
                wrote:
                > >
                > > Perhaps it would be helpful to ask some rhetorical questions:
                Would
                > cross-lake contiguity be an issue at all if your hobby was about
                > boating on the lowest water in each county instead of traveling to
                its
                > highest land. Also, since county lines do extend across it, why
                > should Lake Michigan make any more difference in contiguity than
                the
                > Mississippi River where it remains un-bridged between two
                counties?
                > How wide is too wide, and how narrow is narrow enough for counties
                to
                > be considered contiguous across a water body?
                > >
                > > Lowell G. McManus
                > > Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                > >
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: nj55er
                > > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 7:26 AM
                > > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers
                > >
                > >
                > > Guys: This question, which is probably mainly of practical
                concern to
                > > law enforcement agencies and game wardens, is one that the
                county
                > > highpointers have been discussing for years. We care because
                one the
                > > things we do is attempt to visit contiguous county
                [highpoints] and
                > > thus build "globs" of connected and visited counties. These
                globs can
                > > and do extend for vast distances, in some cases across the
                lower 48
                > > U.S. states and into each state. See completion maps, mine
                included,
                > > at cohp.org for examples. In the past, the cohp group had for
                the most
                > > part considered counties on opposite sides of major bodies of
                water,
                > > most prominently the Great Lakes, as non-contiguous for glob
                purposes.
                > > The major criterion used was whether or not the boundary was
                shown on
                > > the USGS 7.5' topographic maps. After reading the messages
                below, I
                > > reopened the topic with the cohp group, and it is being
                actively
                > > discussed right now. What will likely happen is that each
                person will
                > > make his own decision about what constitutes contiguity, which
                is what
                > > has happened before. In other words, we will agree to
                disagree.
                > >
                > > Michael Schwartz
                > >
                >
              • Flynn, Kevin
                Why not? ________________________________ From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com on behalf of kubana2005 Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 4:41 AM To:
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
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                  Why not?

                  ________________________________

                  From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com on behalf of kubana2005
                  Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 4:41 AM
                  To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers



                  Another thing is Ellis island. Some say it's an exclave although i
                  don't count it as an exclave.

                  .
                • Asher Samuels
                  The New York part is definitely an exclave. It s an enclave of New Jersey. As Mike and I discovered in the summer of 2003, the border doesn t touch the
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
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                    The New York part is definitely an exclave.  It's an enclave of New Jersey.
                     
                    As Mike and I discovered in the summer of 2003, the border doesn't touch the coastline at any stage.
                     
                    We also discovered that the Park Police aren't great fans of borderpointing.
                     
                    Asher Samuels

                    "Flynn, Kevin" <flynnk@...> wrote:
                    Why not?

                    ________________________________

                    From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com on behalf of kubana2005
                    Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 4:41 AM
                    To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers



                    Another thing is Ellis island. Some say it's an exclave although i
                    don't count it as an exclave.

                    .





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                  • Flynn, Kevin
                    I don t know whether Ellis is a NJ exclave (new part) or NY exclave (original part) or a third unique type of creature. New York has jurisdiction over the
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
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                      I don't know whether Ellis is a NJ exclave (new part) or NY exclave (original part) or a third unique type of creature. New York has jurisdiction over the surface waters and islands west of its actual state line but not the subsurface or bay bottom; that is the basis for NJ's claim on Ellis Island in the first place -- that it was raised up from the subsurface by filling after the time of the compact, thereby creating dry NJ land above the surface waters. But it is still connected to NJ mainland, only in a parallel "sandwich" of underwater jurisdiction. The actual state line is still out in the middle of the bay. What we have over the water is overlapping sovereignties -- NY up to the NJ docks on the surface and NJ under the water to the state line.
                       
                      At least, this is my interpretation of the situation.
                       
                       
                       
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Asher Samuels
                      Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 8:59 AM
                      To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                      The New York part is definitely an exclave.  It's an enclave of New Jersey.
                       
                      As Mike and I discovered in the summer of 2003, the border doesn't touch the coastline at any stage.
                       
                      We also discovered that the Park Police aren't great fans of borderpointing.
                       
                      Asher Samuels

                      "Flynn, Kevin" <flynnk@rockymountai nnews.com> wrote:
                      Why not?

                      ____________ _________ _________ __

                      From: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com on behalf of kubana2005
                      Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 4:41 AM
                      To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers



                      Another thing is Ellis island. Some say it's an exclave although i
                      don't count it as an exclave.

                      .





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                    • kubana2005
                      Well, if the border doesn t touch sea at any point, then it is definetly and exclave ! I read somewhere that park rangers were angry... do you have any pics of
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
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                        Well, if the border doesn't touch sea at any point, then it is
                        definetly and exclave !
                        I read somewhere that park rangers were angry... do you have any pics
                        of Ellis border?
                      • Flynn, Kevin
                        To which are you referring? The border *does* touch the sea. It is the surface of the bay that forms NY s jurisdiction, IIRC. Low water mark on Ellis Island
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
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                          To which are you referring?
                           
                          The border *does* touch the sea. It is the surface of the bay that forms NY's jurisdiction, IIRC. Low water mark on Ellis Island would be the beginning of the NY sovereign land, so there is definitely a water-land contiguity.
                           
                          To me, this has always been one of the most confusing aspects of the NY-NJ boundary issue. Not so much Ellis and Bedloes islands above the water west of the NJ line, but NY jurisdiction over the surface of the water on the NJ side as well up to the NJ docks.
                           
                           
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of kubana2005
                          Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 2:30 PM
                          To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                          Well, if the border doesn't touch sea at any point, then it is
                          definetly and exclave !
                          I read somewhere that park rangers were angry... do you have any pics
                          of Ellis border?

                        • Lowell G. McManus
                          Even if the New York portion of Ellis Island did not touch water, it would still be enclaved within the New Jersey waters of a tidal estuary. Lowell G. McManus
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
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                            Even if the New York portion of Ellis Island did not touch water, it would still be enclaved within the New Jersey waters of a tidal estuary.
                             
                            Lowell G. McManus
                            Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 3:29 PM
                            Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                            Well, if the border doesn't touch sea at any point, then it is
                            definetly and exclave !
                            I read somewhere that park rangers were angry... do you have any pics
                            of Ellis border?
                          • Lowell G. McManus
                            Where to begin??? No sovereignties overlap in New York Harbor, but jurisdictions do overlap some sovereignty. Both New York and New Jersey have separate areas
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
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                              Where to begin???
                               
                              No sovereignties overlap in New York Harbor, but jurisdictions do overlap some sovereignty.  Both New York and New Jersey have separate areas of jurisdiction that do overlap some of the sovereign waters of the other under an interstate compact.  (This is primarily for the regulation of navigation and health matters on vessels.)  The original Ellis Island and the one that is now Liberty Island were enclaves of New York sovereignty within New Jersey sovereign waters since colonial times and have nothing to do with the interstate compact that established the areas of jurisdiction.  The landfilled area that enlarged the original Ellis Island on all sides was claimed by New York on the theory that it enlarged the New York island with New York soil that came from excavation of the subways.  The Supremes didn't buy it and gave all of the landfilled portion to New Jersey (reasoning that the raising of the New Jersey water bottom above the surface did not alter its sovereignty).
                               
                              If you want, I can dig out web links to the interstate compact and the Supreme Court decree for you.
                               
                              Lowell G. McManus
                              Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                               
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 11:33 AM
                              Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                              I don't know whether Ellis is a NJ exclave (new part) or NY exclave (original part) or a third unique type of creature. New York has jurisdiction over the surface waters and islands west of its actual state line but not the subsurface or bay bottom; that is the basis for NJ's claim on Ellis Island in the first place -- that it was raised up from the subsurface by filling after the time of the compact, thereby creating dry NJ land above the surface waters. But it is still connected to NJ mainland, only in a parallel "sandwich" of underwater jurisdiction. The actual state line is still out in the middle of the bay. What we have over the water is overlapping sovereignties -- NY up to the NJ docks on the surface and NJ under the water to the state line.
                               
                              At least, this is my interpretation of the situation.
                               
                               
                               
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Asher Samuels
                              Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 8:59 AM
                              To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                              The New York part is definitely an exclave.  It's an enclave of New Jersey.
                               
                              As Mike and I discovered in the summer of 2003, the border doesn't touch the coastline at any stage.
                               
                              We also discovered that the Park Police aren't great fans of borderpointing.
                               
                              Asher Samuels

                              "Flynn, Kevin" <flynnk@rockymountai nnews.com> wrote:
                              Why not?

                              ____________ _________ _________ __

                              From: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com on behalf of kubana2005
                              Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 4:41 AM
                              To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                              Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers



                              Another thing is Ellis island. Some say it's an exclave although i
                              don't count it as an exclave.

                              .





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                            • Lowell G. McManus
                              What I meant to say was: Even if the New York portion of Ellis Island DID touch water [which it does not], it would still be enclaved within the New Jersey
                              Message 14 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
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                                What I meant to say was:
                                 
                                        "Even if the New York portion of Ellis Island DID touch water [which it does not], it would still be enclaved within the New Jersey waters of a tidal estuary."
                                 
                                Lowell G. McManus
                                Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 4:11 PM
                                Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                                Even if the New York portion of Ellis Island did not touch water, it would still be enclaved within the New Jersey waters of a tidal estuary.
                                 
                                Lowell G. McManus
                                Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                              • Arif Samad
                                I obviously agree with Lowell, but I am guessing some people are confusing Ellis Island with Liberty Island and some people are confusing whether it is just
                                Message 15 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
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                                  I obviously agree with Lowell, but I am guessing some people are confusing Ellis Island with Liberty Island and some people are confusing whether it is just jurisdiction on the bay.
                                  First of all, in Liberty Island, as there are no landfilled area, the border is at the water edge.  The pier of Liberty Island may be in New Jersey, but otherwise the island is totally in New York.  Those who does not want to think Likoma Islands as exclaves will also not think of Liberty Island as exclaves.  In Ellis Island, the landfilled area totally surrounds the the original portion thus it is a definite enclave and exclave.
                                  Secondly, the boundary is definitely state sovereignty and more than jurisdiction.  As real sovereignty is only reserved for independent countries, somebody can suggest that the border is only jurisdictional on the bay.  But that only works if we take all borders in America as jurisdictional only.
                                  Arif
                                   
                                  "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@...> wrote:
                                  Where to begin???
                                   
                                  No sovereignties overlap in New York Harbor, but jurisdictions do overlap some sovereignty.  Both New York and New Jersey have separate areas of jurisdiction that do overlap some of the sovereign waters of the other under an interstate compact.  (This is primarily for the regulation of navigation and health matters on vessels.)  The original Ellis Island and the one that is now Liberty Island were enclaves of New York sovereignty within New Jersey sovereign waters since colonial times and have nothing to do with the interstate compact that established the areas of jurisdiction.  The landfilled area that enlarged the original Ellis Island on all sides was claimed by New York on the theory that it enlarged the New York island with New York soil that came from excavation of the subways.  The Supremes didn't buy it and gave all of the landfilled portion to New Jersey (reasoning that the raising of the New Jersey water bottom above the surface did not alter its sovereignty) .
                                   
                                  If you want, I can dig out web links to the interstate compact and the Supreme Court decree for you.
                                   
                                  Lowell G. McManus
                                  Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                                   
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 11:33 AM
                                  Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                                  I don't know whether Ellis is a NJ exclave (new part) or NY exclave (original part) or a third unique type of creature. New York has jurisdiction over the surface waters and islands west of its actual state line but not the subsurface or bay bottom; that is the basis for NJ's claim on Ellis Island in the first place -- that it was raised up from the subsurface by filling after the time of the compact, thereby creating dry NJ land above the surface waters. But it is still connected to NJ mainland, only in a parallel "sandwich" of underwater jurisdiction. The actual state line is still out in the middle of the bay. What we have over the water is overlapping sovereignties -- NY up to the NJ docks on the surface and NJ under the water to the state line.
                                   
                                  At least, this is my interpretation of the situation.
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:borderpoint @yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Asher Samuels
                                  Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 8:59 AM
                                  To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                                  The New York part is definitely an exclave.  It's an enclave of New Jersey.
                                   
                                  As Mike and I discovered in the summer of 2003, the border doesn't touch the coastline at any stage.
                                   
                                  We also discovered that the Park Police aren't great fans of borderpointing.
                                   
                                  Asher Samuels

                                  "Flynn, Kevin" <flynnk@rockymountai nnews.com> wrote:
                                  Why not?

                                  ____________ _________ _________ __

                                  From: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com on behalf of kubana2005
                                  Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 4:41 AM
                                  To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers



                                  Another thing is Ellis island. Some say it's an exclave although i
                                  don't count it as an exclave.

                                  .





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                                • Lowell G. McManus
                                  Arif, Thanks for the agreement. I d like to clarify from the American viewpoint your statement about real sovereignty being reserved for independent countries.
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Arif,
                                     
                                    Thanks for the agreement.
                                     
                                    I'd like to clarify from the American viewpoint your statement about real sovereignty being reserved for independent countries.  In the USA, which is a republic, real sovereignty resides in the people.  The people of the 13 original states formed sovereign governments as they fought for their independence from Great Britain.  Those 13 governments first formed a loose confederation, then "a more perfect Union" by ceding certain limited aspects of their sovereignty to a central government while reserving other aspects for themselves and their people.  Our Constitution allows the admission of additional states to the Union.  One of those subsequent states (Texas) came directly into that Union as an internationally recognized sovereign independent nation, but the other 36 states were admitted after other states or the Congress had legally enabled residents of particular areas under their respective sovereignties to exercise inherent popular sovereignty to organize new governments and petition for admission to the Union on a footing equal in every way to that of the original states.  Thus, each American state theoretically retains all of the sovereignty that flows in a republican manner from its own people,  except for the certain limited aspects thereof that are ceded to the central government in the Constitution.
                                     
                                    So, New York and New Jersey have sovereignty over their respective waters and lands, just as surely as any nation has over its own.
                                     
                                    An interesting case study in state sovereignty occurred in 1907 when the Congress admitted the State of Oklahoma to the Union with a federal legal requirement that its capital should forever remain at Guthrie.  The state soon moved it capital to Oklahoma City, and the people of Guthrie sued.  The United States Supreme Court ruled that the state's sovereignty came from its own people, not from the Congress, that it was equal to every other state, that it could have its capital wherever it pleased, and that the Congress lacked any authority to interfere.
                                     
                                    Lowell G. McManus
                                    Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                                     
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 6:54 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                                    I obviously agree with Lowell, but I am guessing some people are confusing Ellis Island with Liberty Island and some people are confusing whether it is just jurisdiction on the bay.
                                    First of all, in Liberty Island, as there are no landfilled area, the border is at the water edge.  The pier of Liberty Island may be in New Jersey, but otherwise the island is totally in New York.  Those who does not want to think Likoma Islands as exclaves will also not think of Liberty Island as exclaves.  In Ellis Island, the landfilled area totally surrounds the the original portion thus it is a definite enclave and exclave.
                                    Secondly, the boundary is definitely state sovereignty and more than jurisdiction.  As real sovereignty is only reserved for independent countries, somebody can suggest that the border is only jurisdictional on the bay.  But that only works if we take all borders in America as jurisdictional only.
                                    Arif
                                     
                                    "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@...> wrote:
                                    Where to begin???
                                     
                                    No sovereignties overlap in New York Harbor, but jurisdictions do overlap some sovereignty.  Both New York and New Jersey have separate areas of jurisdiction that do overlap some of the sovereign waters of the other under an interstate compact.  (This is primarily for the regulation of navigation and health matters on vessels.)  The original Ellis Island and the one that is now Liberty Island were enclaves of New York sovereignty within New Jersey sovereign waters since colonial times and have nothing to do with the interstate compact that established the areas of jurisdiction.  The landfilled area that enlarged the original Ellis Island on all sides was claimed by New York on the theory that it enlarged the New York island with New York soil that came from excavation of the subways.  The Supremes didn't buy it and gave all of the landfilled portion to New Jersey (reasoning that the raising of the New Jersey water bottom above the surface did not alter its sovereignty) .
                                     
                                    If you want, I can dig out web links to the interstate compact and the Supreme Court decree for you.
                                     
                                    Lowell G. McManus
                                    Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                                     
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 11:33 AM
                                    Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                                    I don't know whether Ellis is a NJ exclave (new part) or NY exclave (original part) or a third unique type of creature. New York has jurisdiction over the surface waters and islands west of its actual state line but not the subsurface or bay bottom; that is the basis for NJ's claim on Ellis Island in the first place -- that it was raised up from the subsurface by filling after the time of the compact, thereby creating dry NJ land above the surface waters. But it is still connected to NJ mainland, only in a parallel "sandwich" of underwater jurisdiction. The actual state line is still out in the middle of the bay. What we have over the water is overlapping sovereignties -- NY up to the NJ docks on the surface and NJ under the water to the state line.
                                     
                                    At least, this is my interpretation of the situation.
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:borderpoint @yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Asher Samuels
                                    Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 8:59 AM
                                    To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                                    Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                                    The New York part is definitely an exclave.  It's an enclave of New Jersey.
                                     
                                    As Mike and I discovered in the summer of 2003, the border doesn't touch the coastline at any stage.
                                     
                                    We also discovered that the Park Police aren't great fans of borderpointing.
                                     
                                    Asher Samuels

                                    "Flynn, Kevin" <flynnk@rockymountai nnews.com> wrote:
                                    Why not?

                                    ____________ _________ _________ __

                                    From: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com on behalf of kubana2005
                                    Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 4:41 AM
                                    To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                                    Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers



                                    Another thing is Ellis island. Some say it's an exclave although i
                                    don't count it as an exclave.

                                    .





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                                  • Kevin Meynell
                                    ... If the states were truly sovereign though, they would be able to secede from the union if they wished, which is apparently not allowed. Cheers, Kevin
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Dec 11, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      >Thus, each American state theoretically retains all of the
                                      >sovereignty that flows in a republican manner from its own
                                      >people, except for the certain limited aspects thereof that are
                                      >ceded to the central government in the Constitution.

                                      If the states were truly sovereign though, they would be able to
                                      secede from the union if they wished, which is apparently not allowed.

                                      Cheers,

                                      Kevin Meynell
                                    • nj55er
                                      Guys, As far as we New Jerseyans are concerned, the rest of the U.S.A. is merely an exclave of our much maligned state. Everywhere one travels in the U.S.
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Dec 11, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Guys,

                                        As far as we New Jerseyans are concerned, the rest of the U.S.A. is
                                        merely an exclave of our much maligned state. Everywhere one travels
                                        in the U.S. there are many many New Jersey expatriates, and if we
                                        voted as a bloc, we could probably take over the country. Don't
                                        believe me?--Fuhgettaboutit!

                                        Mike S.


                                        --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Where to begin???
                                        >
                                        > No sovereignties overlap in New York Harbor, but jurisdictions do
                                        overlap some sovereignty. Both New York and New Jersey have separate
                                        areas of jurisdiction that do overlap some of the sovereign waters of
                                        the other under an interstate compact. (This is primarily for the
                                        regulation of navigation and health matters on vessels.) The original
                                        Ellis Island and the one that is now Liberty Island were enclaves of
                                        New York sovereignty within New Jersey sovereign waters since colonial
                                        times and have nothing to do with the interstate compact that
                                        established the areas of jurisdiction. The landfilled area that
                                        enlarged the original Ellis Island on all sides was claimed by New
                                        York on the theory that it enlarged the New York island with New York
                                        soil that came from excavation of the subways. The Supremes didn't
                                        buy it and gave all of the landfilled portion to New Jersey (reasoning
                                        that the raising of the New Jersey water bottom above the surface did
                                        not alter its sovereignty).
                                        >
                                        > If you want, I can dig out web links to the interstate compact and
                                        the Supreme Court decree for you.
                                        >
                                        > Lowell G. McManus
                                        > Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: Flynn, Kevin
                                        > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 11:33 AM
                                        > Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I don't know whether Ellis is a NJ exclave (new part) or NY
                                        exclave (original part) or a third unique type of creature. New York
                                        has jurisdiction over the surface waters and islands west of its
                                        actual state line but not the subsurface or bay bottom; that is the
                                        basis for NJ's claim on Ellis Island in the first place -- that it was
                                        raised up from the subsurface by filling after the time of the
                                        compact, thereby creating dry NJ land above the surface waters. But it
                                        is still connected to NJ mainland, only in a parallel "sandwich" of
                                        underwater jurisdiction. The actual state line is still out in the
                                        middle of the bay. What we have over the water is overlapping
                                        sovereignties -- NY up to the NJ docks on the surface and NJ under the
                                        water to the state line.
                                        >
                                        > At least, this is my interpretation of the situation.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                        [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Asher Samuels
                                        > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 8:59 AM
                                        > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > The New York part is definitely an exclave. It's an enclave of
                                        New Jersey.
                                        >
                                        > As Mike and I discovered in the summer of 2003, the border
                                        doesn't touch the coastline at any stage.
                                        >
                                        > We also discovered that the Park Police aren't great fans of
                                        borderpointing.
                                        >
                                        > Asher Samuels
                                        >
                                        > "Flynn, Kevin" <flynnk@...> wrote:
                                        > Why not?
                                        >
                                        > ________________________________
                                        >
                                        > From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com on behalf of kubana2005
                                        > Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 4:41 AM
                                        > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Another thing is Ellis island. Some say it's an exclave
                                        although i
                                        > don't count it as an exclave.
                                        >
                                        > .
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                                        >
                                      • Lowell G. McManus
                                        The question at to whether the states cession of certain aspects of their sovereignty to the central government is revocable or irrevocable was the
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Dec 11, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          The question at to whether the states' cession of certain aspects of their sovereignty to the central government is revocable or irrevocable was the constitutional question that led to the war of 1861-1865.  (Those who thought it revocable saw that war as a war for independence, while those who thought it irrevocable saw it as a civil war.)  The question was never settled judicially, but it was settled militarily.
                                           
                                          Since the conduct of foreign affairs is one of the few powers constitutionally reserved to the federal government and prohibited to the states, the federal government can be the only USA sovereignty in the eyes of other nations, but the states still retain certain aspects of their sovereignty in relation to one another and to the federal government.
                                           
                                          Going back to my previous post challenging the notion of "full autonomy" in the absence of sovereignty, the American states could be considered partially autonomous and in a situation of shared sovereignty with a federal government of their own mutual creation.
                                           
                                          There are some other federated nations in the world where the federative units have considerably greater degrees of constitutional autonomy than do the American states.  I think that the Swiss cantons and the Australian states would be prime examples.
                                           
                                          Lowell G. McManus
                                          Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                                           
                                           
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 4:37 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [borderpoint] US state boundary markers


                                          >Thus, each American state theoretically retains all of the
                                          >sovereignty that flows in a republican manner from its own
                                          >people,  except for the certain limited aspects thereof that are
                                          >ceded to the central government in the Constitution.

                                          If the states were truly sovereign though, they would be able to
                                          secede from the union if they wished, which is apparently not allowed.

                                          Cheers,

                                          Kevin Meynell



                                           
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                                        • Kevin Meynell
                                          ... We had this discussion a while back. Whilst it seems to be accepted wisdom that US states can t secede from the union, this is not stated in the US
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Dec 11, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            >The question was never settled judicially, but it was settled militarily.

                                            We had this discussion a while back. Whilst it seems to be accepted
                                            wisdom that US states can't secede from the union, this is not stated
                                            in the US constitution as far as I know.

                                            In the end, military might often settles most points of legal
                                            argument, but that doesn't answer the question of whether secession
                                            is actually permitted under the US constitution (let's say if Vermont
                                            decided to do so).

                                            >Going back to my previous post challenging the notion of "full
                                            >autonomy" in the absence of sovereignty, the American states could
                                            >be considered partially autonomous and in a situation of shared
                                            >sovereignty with a federal government of their own mutual creation.

                                            It is quite possible for any sovereign country to delegate powers to
                                            a wider entity, as indeed all the EU member states do. That does not
                                            make them any less sovereign as presumably they could cede from the
                                            wider entity if they wished. However, if the relinquishing of certain
                                            powers is irrevocable, then I'd say they are no longer sovereign even
                                            if many things are still guaranteed to them ;-)

                                            >I think that the Swiss cantons and the Australian states would be
                                            >prime examples.

                                            Western Australia actually did vote to secede from the Commonwealth
                                            of Australia in 1933, but it was still legally a colony of the UK who
                                            rejected the request.

                                            Cheers,

                                            Kevin Meynell
                                          • Lowell G. McManus
                                            The first central government formed by the 13 original states in 1781 under the Articles of Confederation was a perpetual Union. When the Articles were
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Dec 11, 2007
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              The first central government formed by the 13 original states in 1781 under the Articles of Confederation was a "perpetual Union."  When the Articles were succeeded by the Constitution in 1789, that language was changed to "a more perfect Union."  You are correct that the Constitution is silent on whether states may secede (take back)those limited aspects of sovereignty that they ceded (gave) to the federal government.  Those who have argued in favor of secession point out that the Constitution does say (paraphrasing here) that states can do anything that the Constitution doesn't say that they can't do.
                                               
                                              You are also correct that military might often settles legal points, and this one was historically settled in a war that killed more Americans than ALL OTHER WARS IN OUR HISTORY PUT TOGETHER.  I, like many Americans, had ancestors who fought on both sides of that war.  I find it curious that the Constitution was not amended to clarify the question, when other issues that had contributed toward the breakup of the Union were addressed in three amendments after the war's end.
                                               
                                              Lowell G. McManus
                                              Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                                               
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 10:39 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [borderpoint] US state boundary markers


                                              >The question was never settled judicially, but it was settled militarily.

                                              We had this discussion a while back. Whilst it seems to be accepted
                                              wisdom that US states can't secede from the union, this is not stated
                                              in the US constitution as far as I know.

                                              In the end, military might often settles most points of legal
                                              argument, but that doesn't answer the question of whether secession
                                              is actually permitted under the US constitution (let's say if Vermont
                                              decided to do so).

                                              >Going back to my previous post challenging the notion of "full
                                              >autonomy" in the absence of sovereignty, the American states could
                                              >be considered partially autonomous and in a situation of shared
                                              >sovereignty with a federal government of their own mutual creation.

                                              It is quite possible for any sovereign country to delegate powers to
                                              a wider entity, as indeed all the EU member states do. That does not
                                              make them any less sovereign as presumably they could cede from the
                                              wider entity if they wished. However, if the relinquishing of certain
                                              powers is irrevocable, then I'd say they are no longer sovereign even
                                              if many things are still guaranteed to them ;-)

                                              >I think that the Swiss cantons and the Australian states would be
                                              >prime examples.

                                              Western Australia actually did vote to secede from the Commonwealth
                                              of Australia in 1933, but it was still legally a colony of the UK who
                                              rejected the request.

                                              Cheers,

                                              Kevin Meynell



                                               
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                                            • Daryl Brown
                                              Sounds like a little of that Jersey attitude is showing through!! Became well aquainted with that when in NYC a few years back, and stayed across the river
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Dec 11, 2007
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Sounds like a little of that "Jersey" attitude is showing through!!  Became well aquainted with that when in NYC a few years back, and stayed across the river from Manhattan to get an affordable hotel room.  I put it down to New Jersey's collective feeling of being inferior and overshadowed by the big apple right next door?
                                                 
                                                Daryl

                                                ----- Original Message ----
                                                From: nj55er <spookymike@...>
                                                To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 5:36:55 AM
                                                Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers

                                                Guys,

                                                As far as we New Jerseyans are concerned, the rest of the U.S.A. is
                                                merely an exclave of our much maligned state. Everywhere one travels
                                                in the U.S. there are many many New Jersey expatriates, and if we
                                                voted as a bloc, we could probably take over the country. Don't
                                                believe me?--Fuhgettaboutit !

                                                Mike S.

                                                --- In borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com, "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Where to begin???
                                                >
                                                > No sovereignties overlap in New York Harbor, but jurisdictions do
                                                overlap some sovereignty. Both New York and New Jersey have separate
                                                areas of jurisdiction that do overlap some of the sovereign waters of
                                                the other under an interstate compact. (This is primarily for the
                                                regulation of navigation and health matters on vessels.) The original
                                                Ellis Island and the one that is now Liberty Island were enclaves of
                                                New York sovereignty within New Jersey sovereign waters since colonial
                                                times and have nothing to do with the interstate compact that
                                                established the areas of jurisdiction. The landfilled area that
                                                enlarged the original Ellis Island on all sides was claimed by New
                                                York on the theory that it enlarged the New York island with New York
                                                soil that came from excavation of the subways. The Supremes didn't
                                                buy it and gave all of the landfilled portion to New Jersey (reasoning
                                                that the raising of the New Jersey water bottom above the surface did
                                                not alter its sovereignty) .
                                                >
                                                > If you want, I can dig out web links to the interstate compact and
                                                the Supreme Court decree for you.
                                                >
                                                > Lowell G. McManus
                                                > Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                > From: Flynn, Kevin
                                                > To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                                                > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 11:33 AM
                                                > Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > I don't know whether Ellis is a NJ exclave (new part) or NY
                                                exclave (original part) or a third unique type of creature. New York
                                                has jurisdiction over the surface waters and islands west of its
                                                actual state line but not the subsurface or bay bottom; that is the
                                                basis for NJ's claim on Ellis Island in the first place -- that it was
                                                raised up from the subsurface by filling after the time of the
                                                compact, thereby creating dry NJ land above the surface waters. But it
                                                is still connected to NJ mainland, only in a parallel "sandwich" of
                                                underwater jurisdiction. The actual state line is still out in the
                                                middle of the bay. What we have over the water is overlapping
                                                sovereignties -- NY up to the NJ docks on the surface and NJ under the
                                                water to the state line.
                                                >
                                                > At least, this is my interpretation of the situation.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                > From: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                                                [mailto:borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Asher Samuels
                                                > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 8:59 AM
                                                > To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                                                > Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > The New York part is definitely an exclave. It's an enclave of
                                                New Jersey.
                                                >
                                                > As Mike and I discovered in the summer of 2003, the border
                                                doesn't touch the coastline at any stage.
                                                >
                                                > We also discovered that the Park Police aren't great fans of
                                                borderpointing.
                                                >
                                                > Asher Samuels
                                                >
                                                > "Flynn, Kevin" <flynnk@...> wrote:
                                                > Why not?
                                                >
                                                > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                >
                                                > From: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com on behalf of kubana2005
                                                > Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 4:41 AM
                                                > To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                                                > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: US state boundary markers
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Another thing is Ellis island. Some say it's an exclave
                                                although i
                                                > don't count it as an exclave.
                                                >
                                                > .
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                                                >




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