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Re: Castelgandolfo - Google Earth draws international borders around it

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  • Anton Zeilinger
    Dear Len, thanks for that interesting report! Great reading, I enjoyed it lot! Nonetheless, I am firmly convinced that there is no difference between
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 8, 2007
      Dear Len,

      thanks for that interesting report! Great reading, I enjoyed it  lot!

      Nonetheless, I am firmly convinced that there is no difference between Castelgandolfo and the other extraterritorial buildings of the Holy See, it is not sovereign territory of the Vatican City.

      See Article 14 (paragraph 1) of the Lateran Pact:

        "Italy recognizes the full ownership by the Holy See of the Papal Palace of Castel Gandolfo, together with all endowments, appurtenances, and dependencies thereof, which are now already in the possession of the Holy See, and Italy also undertakes to hand over, within six months after the coming into force of the present Treaty, the Villa Barberini in Castel Gandolfo, together with all endowments, appurtenances, and dependencies thereof.
         ..."

      and Article 15:

      "The property indicated in Article 13 hereof and in paragraphs (1) and (2) of Article 14, as well as the Palaces of the Dataria, of the Cancelleria, of the Sacred Congregation of Propaganda Fide in the Piazza di Spagna of the S. Offizio with its annexes, and those of the Convertendi (now the Congregation of the Eastern Church) in Piazza Scossacavelli, the Vicariato, and all other edifices in which the Holy See shall subsequently desire to establish other offices and departments although such edifices form part of the territory belonging to the Italian State, shall enjoy the immunity granted by International Law to the headquarters of the diplomatic agents of foreign States. Similar immunity shall also apply with regard to any other churches (even if situated outside Rome) during such time as, without such churches being open to the public, the Supreme Pontiff shall take part in religious ceremonies celebrated therein."


      Cheers,

      Anton

      --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A. Nadybal" <lnadybal@...> wrote:
      >
      > Anyone notice on Google Earth map that Castelgandolfo is now shown as
      > three pieces of the Vatican City State?
      >
      > I was there three weeks ago photographing the area to ascertain where
      > the borders are, and had a long conversation with a city official who
      > makes arrangements for the mayor with the Vatican authorities when
      > there is to be a visit from the Pope. She was very clear that when
      > she walked down the street from here office to the Office of Papal
      > Affairs, that once she steps inside the door, she has gone "abroad" -
      > outside of Italy - her word in English.
      >
      > I argued the extraterritorial argument with her, and she insisted it
      > is different in town than with the Vatican owned churches in Rome
      > itself. She pointed to a covered parking lot across the plaza from
      > her office and said that the park house was Vatican-owned property in
      > Italy, but the rest was different.
      >
      > She pointed out that the borders are not between Italy and the Pope's
      > areal, in order to not antagonize locals by making such a hard
      > differentiation between domains (otherwise their apparent freedom of
      > movement would seem very restricted). Only the city's cadastral and
      > property registration office maps (which are available for purchase
      > only by Italian citizens) show precisely where the borders lie. There
      > are pieces that belong to the Vatican on the lake shore (water supply,
      > boat launch), but it's unclear if they have the same alleged status as
      > the park house or the villas themselves.
      >
      > The Vatican area generally covers four areas that used to be detached
      > from one another. Now, there are only two. A cemetery on the east end
      > is separated from the remainder by an Italian Road. The other two
      > were joined by bridges over the Italian roads, and they are marked
      > with the Papal Keys insignia. I learned that the archway bridge
      > nearest to the town square is Vatican to the earth - and the Vatican
      > prohibits locals (except emergency vehicles and handicapped) from
      > passing under it. I saw a wedding party's care turned away from going
      > under this arch by Vatican officials (not the Swiss Guards). Street
      > traffic signs marked "SCV" are found on the same physical signposts as
      > the Italian signs. The other arched bridge that connects the gardens
      > with a villa area is clearly a Vatican bridge, but the roadway status
      > under it is unclear. Thus, the Google borders show on the Earth map
      > are wrong in showing so many separate pieces.
      >
      > The whole of the Vatican site is walled off, with the borders clearly
      > at the outside of the walls - except for a few odd places where it is
      > questionable that the border strictly follows the wall - such as at
      > gates. Curiously, the railway line from Rome passes underneath the
      > Vatican's territory - if the international border is vertical
      > throughout, the tracks in the tunnel are Vatican tracks. Even if the
      > area is strictly extraterritorial, it's a curious situation. The
      > Vatican must have a security interest in access to the tunnel under
      > its buildings. I didn't have a chance to see the tunnel site.
      >
      > The question I have now is, is there anything at all in the wording of
      > the Lateran Treaty and its many amendments and supplemental treaties
      > that indicate in any way that Castelgandolfo is treated as other than
      > strictly extraterritorial? The city authorities I asked, as well as
      > local business owners all agreed that neither the local government nor
      > the Italian government has any right of entry into the Pope's domains,
      > and that the mayor is the only local official regularly invited in for
      > functions (as a courtesy to the town that hosts the Vatican and puts
      > up with the interruptions that causes). With other Extraterritorial
      > property around the world, like consulates, the sovereign hosts have
      > rights to enter to put out fires, etc. Here, the Vatican Fire
      > Department is on duty.
      >
      > I'll be posting pictures of the areas I mentioned (and the fire truck)
      > at www.exclave.info is a few days - and will post a note here when
      > it's done.
      >
      > Regards
      >
      > LN
      >
    • romain.hodapp@free.fr
      ... On viamichelin too : http://tinyurl.com/2e5n49 Romain
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 8, 2007
        Selon "L. A. Nadybal" <lnadybal@...>:

        > Anyone notice on Google Earth map that Castelgandolfo is now shown as
        > three pieces of the Vatican City State?
        >


        On viamichelin too :
        http://tinyurl.com/2e5n49
        Romain
      • L. A. Nadybal
        Anton, 1. I know those paragraphs, but there are some additional things - about 8 or 10 amendments or supplemental treaties exists relating to territorial
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 8, 2007
          Anton,
          1. I know those paragraphs, but there are some additional things -
          about 8 or 10 amendments or supplemental treaties exists relating to
          territorial issues since the Lateran treaty came into existence.

          2. The grant of full ownership does not exclude granting of
          sovereignty elsewhere.

          3. Translations may be inaccurate. Why way "full ownership" when
          "ownership" is sufficient for simple granting of property rights.
          What does "full" add?

          4. Villa Barberini, I found out is only part of the area. What does
          "hand over" mean? sounds like slang English (poor translation) -
          "Transfer property ownership" if property transfer was meant. That
          makes it different in status than the rest.

          5. Article 15 makes a differentiation between those listed areas and
          others where where the pop wants to erect offices, if the OTHER
          edifices and departments to be established are in Italy.... We need to
          parse article 15 correctly.

          Regards

          Len


          --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Anton Zeilinger"
          <anton_zeilinger@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Len,
          >
          > thanks for that interesting report! Great reading, I enjoyed it lot!
          >
          > Nonetheless, I am firmly convinced that there is no difference between
          > Castelgandolfo and the other extraterritorial buildings of the Holy See,
          > it is not sovereign territory of the Vatican City.
          >
          > See Article 14 (paragraph 1) of the Lateran Pact:
          >
          > "Italy recognizes the full ownership by the Holy See of the Papal
          > Palace of Castel Gandolfo, together with all endowments, appurtenances,
          > and dependencies thereof, which are now already in the possession of the
          > Holy See, and Italy also undertakes to hand over, within six months
          > after the coming into force of the present Treaty, the Villa Barberini
          > in Castel Gandolfo, together with all endowments, appurtenances, and
          > dependencies thereof.
          > ..."
          >
          > and Article 15:
          >
          > "The property indicated in Article 13 hereof and in paragraphs (1) and
          > (2) of Article 14, as well as the Palaces of the Dataria, of the
          > Cancelleria, of the Sacred Congregation of Propaganda Fide in the Piazza
          > di Spagna of the S. Offizio with its annexes, and those of the
          > Convertendi (now the Congregation of the Eastern Church) in Piazza
          > Scossacavelli, the Vicariato, and all other edifices in which the Holy
          > See shall subsequently desire to establish other offices and departments
          > although such edifices form part of the territory belonging to the
          > Italian State, shall enjoy the immunity granted by International Law to
          > the headquarters of the diplomatic agents of foreign States. Similar
          > immunity shall also apply with regard to any other churches (even if
          > situated outside Rome) during such time as, without such churches being
          > open to the public, the Supreme Pontiff shall take part in religious
          > ceremonies celebrated therein."
          >
          >
          > Cheers,
          >
          > Anton
          >
          > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A. Nadybal" <lnadybal@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Anyone notice on Google Earth map that Castelgandolfo is now shown as
          > > three pieces of the Vatican City State?
          > >
          > > I was there three weeks ago photographing the area to ascertain where
          > > the borders are, and had a long conversation with a city official who
          > > makes arrangements for the mayor with the Vatican authorities when
          > > there is to be a visit from the Pope. She was very clear that when
          > > she walked down the street from here office to the Office of Papal
          > > Affairs, that once she steps inside the door, she has gone "abroad" -
          > > outside of Italy - her word in English.
          > >
          > > I argued the extraterritorial argument with her, and she insisted it
          > > is different in town than with the Vatican owned churches in Rome
          > > itself. She pointed to a covered parking lot across the plaza from
          > > her office and said that the park house was Vatican-owned property in
          > > Italy, but the rest was different.
          > >
          > > She pointed out that the borders are not between Italy and the Pope's
          > > areal, in order to not antagonize locals by making such a hard
          > > differentiation between domains (otherwise their apparent freedom of
          > > movement would seem very restricted). Only the city's cadastral and
          > > property registration office maps (which are available for purchase
          > > only by Italian citizens) show precisely where the borders lie. There
          > > are pieces that belong to the Vatican on the lake shore (water supply,
          > > boat launch), but it's unclear if they have the same alleged status as
          > > the park house or the villas themselves.
          > >
          > > The Vatican area generally covers four areas that used to be detached
          > > from one another. Now, there are only two. A cemetery on the east end
          > > is separated from the remainder by an Italian Road. The other two
          > > were joined by bridges over the Italian roads, and they are marked
          > > with the Papal Keys insignia. I learned that the archway bridge
          > > nearest to the town square is Vatican to the earth - and the Vatican
          > > prohibits locals (except emergency vehicles and handicapped) from
          > > passing under it. I saw a wedding party's care turned away from going
          > > under this arch by Vatican officials (not the Swiss Guards). Street
          > > traffic signs marked "SCV" are found on the same physical signposts as
          > > the Italian signs. The other arched bridge that connects the gardens
          > > with a villa area is clearly a Vatican bridge, but the roadway status
          > > under it is unclear. Thus, the Google borders show on the Earth map
          > > are wrong in showing so many separate pieces.
          > >
          > > The whole of the Vatican site is walled off, with the borders clearly
          > > at the outside of the walls - except for a few odd places where it is
          > > questionable that the border strictly follows the wall - such as at
          > > gates. Curiously, the railway line from Rome passes underneath the
          > > Vatican's territory - if the international border is vertical
          > > throughout, the tracks in the tunnel are Vatican tracks. Even if the
          > > area is strictly extraterritorial, it's a curious situation. The
          > > Vatican must have a security interest in access to the tunnel under
          > > its buildings. I didn't have a chance to see the tunnel site.
          > >
          > > The question I have now is, is there anything at all in the wording of
          > > the Lateran Treaty and its many amendments and supplemental treaties
          > > that indicate in any way that Castelgandolfo is treated as other than
          > > strictly extraterritorial? The city authorities I asked, as well as
          > > local business owners all agreed that neither the local government nor
          > > the Italian government has any right of entry into the Pope's domains,
          > > and that the mayor is the only local official regularly invited in for
          > > functions (as a courtesy to the town that hosts the Vatican and puts
          > > up with the interruptions that causes). With other Extraterritorial
          > > property around the world, like consulates, the sovereign hosts have
          > > rights to enter to put out fires, etc. Here, the Vatican Fire
          > > Department is on duty.
          > >
          > > I'll be posting pictures of the areas I mentioned (and the fire truck)
          > > at www.exclave.info is a few days - and will post a note here when
          > > it's done.
          > >
          > > Regards
          > >
          > > LN
          > >
          >
        • Anton Zeilinger
          Len, ... This is the first time I have heard that there were so many supplemental treaties, I d love to read them! ... That s true. But where? ... The Vatican
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 8, 2007
            Len,

            answers inserted below:

            --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A. Nadybal" <lnadybal@...> wrote:
            >
            > Anton,
            > 1. I know those paragraphs, but there are some additional things -
            > about 8 or 10 amendments or supplemental treaties exists relating to
            > territorial issues since the Lateran treaty came into existence.

            This is the first time I have heard that there were so many
            supplemental treaties, I'd love to read them!

            > 2. The grant of full ownership does not exclude granting of
            > sovereignty elsewhere.

            That's true. But where?

            > 3. Translations may be inaccurate. Why way "full ownership" when
            > "ownership" is sufficient for simple granting of property rights.
            > What does "full" add?

            The Vatican itself speaks of "full ownership", see:

            http://www.vaticanstate.va/EN/Monuments/Castel_Gandolfo.htm

            This may be as opposed to ownership under debt - a possibility in
            civil law countries like Italy, where you are nominally the owner
            according in the catastral registry, but it is an ownership that is
            weighed down by a debt, or other obligations (entered in the books as
            well!). Or, maybe Italy had layed a claim on Castelgandolfo?

            "Full ownership" in this context in my opinion does not include
            sovereignty, especially in combination with Art. 15 which says that
            Castelgandolfo "shall enjoy the immunity granted by International Law
            to the headquarters of the diplomatic agents of foreign States." Why
            do that if it's sovereign territory, anyway?

            > 4. Villa Barberini, I found out is only part of the area. What does
            > "hand over" mean? sounds like slang English (poor translation) -
            > "Transfer property ownership" if property transfer was meant. That
            > makes it different in status than the rest.

            Again, the Vatican itself uses the term "hand over", see:

            http://www.vaticanstate.va/EN/Monuments/Castel_Gandolfo.htm

            I would guess that the Villa Barberini was used / occupied by the
            Italian state, thus the need for transfer. Yes, that makes it
            different, but only because the other properties were already under
            Vatican ownership.

            > 5. Article 15 makes a differentiation between those listed areas and
            > others where where the pop wants to erect offices, if the OTHER
            > edifices and departments to be established are in Italy.... We need to
            > parse article 15 correctly.
            >

            I would read Article 15 in a way that if the Holy Father (aka "pop")
            needs new offices, they will simply get extraterritoriality but will
            remain Italian territory. This does not necessarily imply that the
            others are outside of Italy.

            > Regards
            >
            > Len

            Most convincingly, the Vatican itself speaks in regard of all
            buildings outside of the Vatican City itself as extraterritorial, see:

            http://www.vatican.va/news_services/press/documentazione/documents/sp_ss_scv/informazione_generale/extraterritoriale_it.html

            or

            http://tinyurl.com/23v58

            Including:

            "Immobili con privilegio di extraterritorialità fuori Roma sono: il
            Palazzo Pontificio, la Villa Cybo e la Villa Barberini a
            Castelgandolfo, residenza estiva del Sommo Pontefice, che coprono una
            superficie globale di 400 mila metri quadrati, a cui venne ad
            aggiungersi il nuovo Centro radiotrasmittente di Santa Maria di
            Galeria, sorto nei pressi di Cesano a 18 km. da Roma, in seguito
            all'accordo tra Santa Sede e Italia dell'8 ottobre 1951."

            translation:

            "Property with the privilege of extraterritoriality outside of Rome
            are: the Pontifical Palace, the Villa Cybo and the Villa Barberini at
            Castel Gandolfo, the summer residence of the Pope, which comprise a
            total area of 400.000 square metres, to which was added the new Radio
            Transmission Centre of Santa Maria di Galeria, which rises near
            Cesano, 18 km from Rome, following the Accord of October 8th, 1951
            between the Holy See and Italy."

            Cheers,

            Anton


            >
            > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Anton Zeilinger"
            > <anton_zeilinger@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Dear Len,
            > >
            > > thanks for that interesting report! Great reading, I enjoyed it lot!
            > >
            > > Nonetheless, I am firmly convinced that there is no difference between
            > > Castelgandolfo and the other extraterritorial buildings of the
            Holy See,
            > > it is not sovereign territory of the Vatican City.
            > >
            > > See Article 14 (paragraph 1) of the Lateran Pact:
            > >
            > > "Italy recognizes the full ownership by the Holy See of the Papal
            > > Palace of Castel Gandolfo, together with all endowments,
            appurtenances,
            > > and dependencies thereof, which are now already in the possession
            of the
            > > Holy See, and Italy also undertakes to hand over, within six months
            > > after the coming into force of the present Treaty, the Villa Barberini
            > > in Castel Gandolfo, together with all endowments, appurtenances, and
            > > dependencies thereof.
            > > ..."
            > >
            > > and Article 15:
            > >
            > > "The property indicated in Article 13 hereof and in paragraphs (1) and
            > > (2) of Article 14, as well as the Palaces of the Dataria, of the
            > > Cancelleria, of the Sacred Congregation of Propaganda Fide in the
            Piazza
            > > di Spagna of the S. Offizio with its annexes, and those of the
            > > Convertendi (now the Congregation of the Eastern Church) in Piazza
            > > Scossacavelli, the Vicariato, and all other edifices in which the Holy
            > > See shall subsequently desire to establish other offices and
            departments
            > > although such edifices form part of the territory belonging to the
            > > Italian State, shall enjoy the immunity granted by International
            Law to
            > > the headquarters of the diplomatic agents of foreign States. Similar
            > > immunity shall also apply with regard to any other churches (even if
            > > situated outside Rome) during such time as, without such churches
            being
            > > open to the public, the Supreme Pontiff shall take part in religious
            > > ceremonies celebrated therein."
            > >
            > >
            > > Cheers,
            > >
            > > Anton
            > >
            > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A. Nadybal" <lnadybal@>
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Anyone notice on Google Earth map that Castelgandolfo is now
            shown as
            > > > three pieces of the Vatican City State?
            > > >
            > > > I was there three weeks ago photographing the area to ascertain
            where
            > > > the borders are, and had a long conversation with a city
            official who
            > > > makes arrangements for the mayor with the Vatican authorities when
            > > > there is to be a visit from the Pope. She was very clear that when
            > > > she walked down the street from here office to the Office of Papal
            > > > Affairs, that once she steps inside the door, she has gone
            "abroad" -
            > > > outside of Italy - her word in English.
            > > >
            > > > I argued the extraterritorial argument with her, and she insisted it
            > > > is different in town than with the Vatican owned churches in Rome
            > > > itself. She pointed to a covered parking lot across the plaza from
            > > > her office and said that the park house was Vatican-owned
            property in
            > > > Italy, but the rest was different.
            > > >
            > > > She pointed out that the borders are not between Italy and the
            Pope's
            > > > areal, in order to not antagonize locals by making such a hard
            > > > differentiation between domains (otherwise their apparent freedom of
            > > > movement would seem very restricted). Only the city's cadastral and
            > > > property registration office maps (which are available for purchase
            > > > only by Italian citizens) show precisely where the borders lie.
            There
            > > > are pieces that belong to the Vatican on the lake shore (water
            supply,
            > > > boat launch), but it's unclear if they have the same alleged
            status as
            > > > the park house or the villas themselves.
            > > >
            > > > The Vatican area generally covers four areas that used to be
            detached
            > > > from one another. Now, there are only two. A cemetery on the
            east end
            > > > is separated from the remainder by an Italian Road. The other two
            > > > were joined by bridges over the Italian roads, and they are marked
            > > > with the Papal Keys insignia. I learned that the archway bridge
            > > > nearest to the town square is Vatican to the earth - and the Vatican
            > > > prohibits locals (except emergency vehicles and handicapped) from
            > > > passing under it. I saw a wedding party's care turned away from
            going
            > > > under this arch by Vatican officials (not the Swiss Guards). Street
            > > > traffic signs marked "SCV" are found on the same physical
            signposts as
            > > > the Italian signs. The other arched bridge that connects the
            gardens
            > > > with a villa area is clearly a Vatican bridge, but the roadway
            status
            > > > under it is unclear. Thus, the Google borders show on the Earth map
            > > > are wrong in showing so many separate pieces.
            > > >
            > > > The whole of the Vatican site is walled off, with the borders
            clearly
            > > > at the outside of the walls - except for a few odd places where
            it is
            > > > questionable that the border strictly follows the wall - such as at
            > > > gates. Curiously, the railway line from Rome passes underneath the
            > > > Vatican's territory - if the international border is vertical
            > > > throughout, the tracks in the tunnel are Vatican tracks. Even
            if the
            > > > area is strictly extraterritorial, it's a curious situation. The
            > > > Vatican must have a security interest in access to the tunnel under
            > > > its buildings. I didn't have a chance to see the tunnel site.
            > > >
            > > > The question I have now is, is there anything at all in the
            wording of
            > > > the Lateran Treaty and its many amendments and supplemental treaties
            > > > that indicate in any way that Castelgandolfo is treated as other
            than
            > > > strictly extraterritorial? The city authorities I asked, as well as
            > > > local business owners all agreed that neither the local
            government nor
            > > > the Italian government has any right of entry into the Pope's
            domains,
            > > > and that the mayor is the only local official regularly invited
            in for
            > > > functions (as a courtesy to the town that hosts the Vatican and puts
            > > > up with the interruptions that causes). With other Extraterritorial
            > > > property around the world, like consulates, the sovereign hosts have
            > > > rights to enter to put out fires, etc. Here, the Vatican Fire
            > > > Department is on duty.
            > > >
            > > > I'll be posting pictures of the areas I mentioned (and the fire
            truck)
            > > > at www.exclave.info is a few days - and will post a note here when
            > > > it's done.
            > > >
            > > > Regards
            > > >
            > > > LN
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • L. A. Nadybal
            Here are some documents I know about, but can t seem to get the texts. I ve been told some are kept secret - those called Concordats. There are more. 28
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 8, 2007
              Here are some documents I know about, but can't seem to get the texts.
              I've been told some are kept secret - those called Concordats. There
              are more.

              28 November 1929. Agreement between the Holy See and the Kingdom of
              Italy to regulate vehicular traffic on the territories of the State of
              the Vatican City and the Kingdom of Italy.

              6 September 1932. Protocol between the Holy See and the Government of
              the Kingdom of Italy for the execution of Article 10 of the Lateran
              Treaty (Supplement A).

              20 December 1933. Agreement on railways between the Holy See and the
              Government of Italy.

              24 April 1948. Agreement between the Holy See and Italy for a new
              demarcation of extra-territorial land established by the Pontifical
              Villas in Castel Gandolfo, in Albano Laziale.

              23 January 1981. Exchange of (Diplomatic) Notes between the Italian
              Government and the Holy See concerning the enlargement of the civil
              cemetery at Albano.


              18 February 1984. Agreement and Supplementary Protocol between the
              Holy See and the Italian Republic with modifications to the Lateran
              Concordat of 11 February 1929.

              1987
              8 August-7 September 1987. Exchange of (Diplomatic) Notes between
              Italy and the Holy See concerning the concession of a portion of
              extraterritorial land situated on the margins of the Pontifical Villa
              of Castel Gandolfo.

              10/30 April 1988(?). Exchange of Notes with Supplements 1 and 2
              between the Italian Republic and the Holy See constituting a
              technical, explanatory and executive agreement of the Modified
              Agreement of the Lateran Concordat of 18 February 1984 and the
              successive Protocol of 15 November 1984. Draft Note.

              My replies inserted below, preceded by long lines of -----------


              --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Anton Zeilinger"
              <anton_zeilinger@...> wrote:
              >
              > Len,
              >
              > answers inserted below:
              >
              > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A. Nadybal" <lnadybal@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Anton,
              > > 1. I know those paragraphs, but there are some additional things -
              > > about 8 or 10 amendments or supplemental treaties exists relating to
              > > territorial issues since the Lateran treaty came into existence.
              >
              > This is the first time I have heard that there were so many
              > supplemental treaties, I'd love to read them!
              >
              > > 2. The grant of full ownership does not exclude granting of
              > > sovereignty elsewhere.
              >
              > That's true. But where?

              --------------- I should have left off "elsewhere". In the case of
              Castelgandolfo, it was in the Pope's possession long before the
              treaties - and their could possibly be an unbroken legal trail of
              sovereign rights that predate the Lateran Treaty.
              >
              > > 3. Translations may be inaccurate. Why way "full ownership" when
              > > "ownership" is sufficient for simple granting of property rights.
              > > What does "full" add?
              >
              > The Vatican itself speaks of "full ownership", see:
              >
              > http://www.vaticanstate.va/EN/Monuments/Castel_Gandolfo.htm

              ---------------------- One government copied the poor translation (or
              the poor choice of terms) from the other. Could by, no??
              >
              > This may be as opposed to ownership under debt - a possibility in
              > civil law countries like Italy, where you are nominally the owner
              > according in the catastral registry, but it is an ownership that is
              > weighed down by a debt, or other obligations (entered in the books as
              > well!). Or, maybe Italy had laid a claim on Castelgandolfo?
              >
              > "Full ownership" in this context in my opinion does not include
              > sovereignty, especially in combination with Art. 15 which says that
              > Castelgandolfo "shall enjoy the immunity granted by International Law

              ------------------------- I wouldn't go that far and exclude
              something without knowing more.


              > to the headquarters of the diplomatic agents of foreign States." Why
              > do that if it's sovereign territory, anyway?

              ------------- Real good point. But does the treaty actually say that
              about all of these outside areas?
              >
              > > 4. Villa Barberini, I found out is only part of the area. What does
              > > "hand over" mean? sounds like slang English (poor translation) -
              > > "Transfer property ownership" if property transfer was meant. That
              > > makes it different in status than the rest.
              >
              > Again, the Vatican itself uses the term "hand over", see:
              >
              > http://www.vaticanstate.va/EN/Monuments/Castel_Gandolfo.htm
              >
              > I would guess that the Villa Barberini was used / occupied by the
              > Italian state, thus the need for transfer. Yes, that makes it
              > different, but only because the other properties were already under
              > Vatican ownership.
              >

              ---------------Could be.


              > > 5. Article 15 makes a differentiation between those listed areas and
              > > others where where the pop wants to erect offices, if the OTHER
              > > edifices and departments to be established are in Italy.... We need to
              > > parse article 15 correctly.
              > >
              >
              > I would read Article 15 in a way that if the Holy Father (aka "pop")
              > needs new offices, they will simply get extraterritoriality but will
              > remain Italian territory. This does not necessarily imply that the
              > others are outside of Italy.

              ------------------ Doesn't exclude it, either.
              >
              > > Regards
              > >
              > > Len
              >
              > Most convincingly, the Vatican itself speaks in regard of all
              > buildings outside of the Vatican City itself as extraterritorial, see:
              >
              >
              http://www.vatican.va/news_services/press/documentazione/documents/sp_ss_scv/informazione_generale/extraterritoriale_it.html
              >
              > or
              >
              > http://tinyurl.com/23v58
              >
              > Including:
              >
              > "Immobili con privilegio di extraterritorialità fuori Roma sono: il
              > Palazzo Pontificio, la Villa Cybo e la Villa Barberini a
              > Castelgandolfo, residenza estiva del Sommo Pontefice, che coprono una
              > superficie globale di 400 mila metri quadrati, a cui venne ad
              > aggiungersi il nuovo Centro radiotrasmittente di Santa Maria di
              > Galeria, sorto nei pressi di Cesano a 18 km. da Roma, in seguito
              > all'accordo tra Santa Sede e Italia dell'8 ottobre 1951."
              >
              > translation:
              >
              > "Property with the privilege of extraterritoriality outside of Rome
              > are: the Pontifical Palace, the Villa Cybo and the Villa Barberini

              -------------------- Is that all at Castelgandolfo - that may not be
              all of all, and what's left would have different status if unnamed.
              Do not know - am not sure, yet.

              at
              > Castel Gandolfo, the summer residence of the Pope, which comprise a
              > total area of 400.000 square metres, to which was added the new Radio
              > Transmission Centre of Santa Maria di Galeria, which rises near
              > Cesano, 18 km from Rome, following the Accord of October 8th, 1951
              > between the Holy See and Italy."
              >
              > Cheers,
              >
              > Anton

              --------------------------- There's a real breakdown in this treaty
              the way the word extraterritoriality is used in conjunction with the
              phraseology relating to diplomatic immunity. We need to look at this
              more carefully, because diplomatic immunity applies to individuals,
              and especially where it says Castelgandolfo "shall enjoy the immunity
              granted by International Law", it sounds like the treaty is
              erroneously mixing immunities being accorded to individuals with
              jurisdiction over territory accorded to a neighboring government.

              LN


              >
              >
              > >
              > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Anton Zeilinger"
              > > <anton_zeilinger@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Dear Len,
              > > >
              > > > thanks for that interesting report! Great reading, I enjoyed it
              lot!
              > > >
              > > > Nonetheless, I am firmly convinced that there is no difference
              between
              > > > Castelgandolfo and the other extraterritorial buildings of the
              > Holy See,
              > > > it is not sovereign territory of the Vatican City.
              > > >
              > > > See Article 14 (paragraph 1) of the Lateran Pact:
              > > >
              > > > "Italy recognizes the full ownership by the Holy See of the Papal
              > > > Palace of Castel Gandolfo, together with all endowments,
              > appurtenances,
              > > > and dependencies thereof, which are now already in the possession
              > of the
              > > > Holy See, and Italy also undertakes to hand over, within six months
              > > > after the coming into force of the present Treaty, the Villa
              Barberini
              > > > in Castel Gandolfo, together with all endowments, appurtenances, and
              > > > dependencies thereof.
              > > > ..."
              > > >
              > > > and Article 15:
              > > >
              > > > "The property indicated in Article 13 hereof and in paragraphs
              (1) and
              > > > (2) of Article 14, as well as the Palaces of the Dataria, of the
              > > > Cancelleria, of the Sacred Congregation of Propaganda Fide in the
              > Piazza
              > > > di Spagna of the S. Offizio with its annexes, and those of the
              > > > Convertendi (now the Congregation of the Eastern Church) in Piazza
              > > > Scossacavelli, the Vicariato, and all other edifices in which
              the Holy
              > > > See shall subsequently desire to establish other offices and
              > departments
              > > > although such edifices form part of the territory belonging to the
              > > > Italian State, shall enjoy the immunity granted by International
              > Law to
              > > > the headquarters of the diplomatic agents of foreign States. Similar
              > > > immunity shall also apply with regard to any other churches (even if
              > > > situated outside Rome) during such time as, without such churches
              > being
              > > > open to the public, the Supreme Pontiff shall take part in religious
              > > > ceremonies celebrated therein."
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Cheers,
              > > >
              > > > Anton
              > > >
              > > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A. Nadybal" <lnadybal@>
              > > > wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Anyone notice on Google Earth map that Castelgandolfo is now
              > shown as
              > > > > three pieces of the Vatican City State?
              > > > >
              > > > > I was there three weeks ago photographing the area to ascertain
              > where
              > > > > the borders are, and had a long conversation with a city
              > official who
              > > > > makes arrangements for the mayor with the Vatican authorities when
              > > > > there is to be a visit from the Pope. She was very clear that
              when
              > > > > she walked down the street from here office to the Office of Papal
              > > > > Affairs, that once she steps inside the door, she has gone
              > "abroad" -
              > > > > outside of Italy - her word in English.
              > > > >
              > > > > I argued the extraterritorial argument with her, and she
              insisted it
              > > > > is different in town than with the Vatican owned churches in Rome
              > > > > itself. She pointed to a covered parking lot across the plaza
              from
              > > > > her office and said that the park house was Vatican-owned
              > property in
              > > > > Italy, but the rest was different.
              > > > >
              > > > > She pointed out that the borders are not between Italy and the
              > Pope's
              > > > > areal, in order to not antagonize locals by making such a hard
              > > > > differentiation between domains (otherwise their apparent
              freedom of
              > > > > movement would seem very restricted). Only the city's
              cadastral and
              > > > > property registration office maps (which are available for
              purchase
              > > > > only by Italian citizens) show precisely where the borders lie.
              > There
              > > > > are pieces that belong to the Vatican on the lake shore (water
              > supply,
              > > > > boat launch), but it's unclear if they have the same alleged
              > status as
              > > > > the park house or the villas themselves.
              > > > >
              > > > > The Vatican area generally covers four areas that used to be
              > detached
              > > > > from one another. Now, there are only two. A cemetery on the
              > east end
              > > > > is separated from the remainder by an Italian Road. The other two
              > > > > were joined by bridges over the Italian roads, and they are marked
              > > > > with the Papal Keys insignia. I learned that the archway bridge
              > > > > nearest to the town square is Vatican to the earth - and the
              Vatican
              > > > > prohibits locals (except emergency vehicles and handicapped) from
              > > > > passing under it. I saw a wedding party's care turned away from
              > going
              > > > > under this arch by Vatican officials (not the Swiss Guards).
              Street
              > > > > traffic signs marked "SCV" are found on the same physical
              > signposts as
              > > > > the Italian signs. The other arched bridge that connects the
              > gardens
              > > > > with a villa area is clearly a Vatican bridge, but the roadway
              > status
              > > > > under it is unclear. Thus, the Google borders show on the
              Earth map
              > > > > are wrong in showing so many separate pieces.
              > > > >
              > > > > The whole of the Vatican site is walled off, with the borders
              > clearly
              > > > > at the outside of the walls - except for a few odd places where
              > it is
              > > > > questionable that the border strictly follows the wall - such
              as at
              > > > > gates. Curiously, the railway line from Rome passes
              underneath the
              > > > > Vatican's territory - if the international border is vertical
              > > > > throughout, the tracks in the tunnel are Vatican tracks. Even
              > if the
              > > > > area is strictly extraterritorial, it's a curious situation. The
              > > > > Vatican must have a security interest in access to the tunnel
              under
              > > > > its buildings. I didn't have a chance to see the tunnel site.
              > > > >
              > > > > The question I have now is, is there anything at all in the
              > wording of
              > > > > the Lateran Treaty and its many amendments and supplemental
              treaties
              > > > > that indicate in any way that Castelgandolfo is treated as other
              > than
              > > > > strictly extraterritorial? The city authorities I asked, as
              well as
              > > > > local business owners all agreed that neither the local
              > government nor
              > > > > the Italian government has any right of entry into the Pope's
              > domains,
              > > > > and that the mayor is the only local official regularly invited
              > in for
              > > > > functions (as a courtesy to the town that hosts the Vatican
              and puts
              > > > > up with the interruptions that causes). With other
              Extraterritorial
              > > > > property around the world, like consulates, the sovereign
              hosts have
              > > > > rights to enter to put out fires, etc. Here, the Vatican Fire
              > > > > Department is on duty.
              > > > >
              > > > > I'll be posting pictures of the areas I mentioned (and the fire
              > truck)
              > > > > at www.exclave.info is a few days - and will post a note here when
              > > > > it's done.
              > > > >
              > > > > Regards
              > > > >
              > > > > LN
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
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