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RE: [borderpoint] Re: Spanish provincial tripoint marker... or not

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  • Peter Smaardijk
    ... No, I didn t get confused. As I understand it, both had inscriptions on all three sides, only the Zaragoza side on the second one was worn away. ... No
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 13, 2005
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      --- Hugh Wallis <hugh@...> wrote:

      > Please don't get confused with the 2 tripoints on my web page - the
      > one with
      > a blank side was different from the one you originally enquired about
      > and is
      > located a few kms south of that.

      No, I didn't get confused. As I understand it, both had inscriptions on
      all three sides, only the Zaragoza side on the second one was worn
      away.

      >
      > Going back to the original one, no I didn't explore beyond the
      > abandoned
      > railway track which I regret, as I was, sadly, misled by the
      > Microsoft map
      > (which indicated the tripoint as being on the other side of the road)
      > and I
      > had not realised that there was a detailed topomap available and
      > there was
      > no wireless internet access to download it "in the field" :(
      >
      > Hence my comments that my field visit cannot provide a definitive
      > answer :(
      > :(

      No problem, we'll still have some work to do, then :) And I won't rule
      out that these markers are tripoint markers after all.

      I'll reproduce a bit that I posted more than three years ago on
      BoundaryPoint, when I was still a member there, and attach the pictures
      that go with it.

      -------------
      [Posted on Aug. 5, 2002]

      1. The boundary between the Basque province of Araba (Álava in Spanish)
      and the Castilian province of Burgos on the road from Bóveda (Araba) to
      San Pantaleón de Losa (Burgos). The big sign telling us that we’re
      entering Araba and the Basque Country is obviously not on the border
      (one of those rules again). But is the roadside border marker, marking
      the transition of one road (BU-5530) to another (A-2622) on the border?
      Alas, no…

      The whole spot is illustrative of the fact that one of the favourite
      victims of political passion in this part of the world is the road
      sign. It is not visible in the picture, but someone took the trouble of
      writing the word “España” on the provincial road sign at least fifty
      times. The “España” on the road marker is clear. The stone bears the
      signs of having been cleaned before because of another hothead’s
      actions.

      2. Looking towards Castilia and León. Part-time politicians from the
      other side found it necessary to state that both region and province
      are full of fascists, and that they are against a nuclear power plant
      in Burgos province.

      But the old stone might even be on the border! Who knows…

      3. Yes, the old stone is on the border! I suspect that the white line
      across the road is it!!

      4. This must be the proof: A small, plastic marker at the side of the
      road, in the road surface, at the end of the white line. No-one of the
      political paint brigade has discovered it yet, it is statement-free.

      ----------

      Peter
      >
      > From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of Peter Smaardijk
      > Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 10:08 AM
      > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: Spanish provincial tripoint marker... or
      > not
      >
      >
      > Hi Hugh,
      >
      > Thanks for all the pictures you have put on the Internet. I've really
      >
      > been enjoying it.
      >
      > You didn't go looking on the other side of the railway, then? There
      > might be another marker. Not to spoil your finds, it might still be
      > that the markers that you have found have been put there by the road
      > authorities, not by surveyors. The strange placement of the names of
      > the provinces on the second marker could is more logical, then. I
      > have seen such markers on other provincial boundaries, and they were
      > triangular in shape, with the name of province A facing province B
      > and vice versa. So there was always one side with no inscription.
      > When you treat such a marker as a tripoint, you can use the other
      > side for the third province. It is still wrong, of course, but such a
      >
      > mistake is perhaps more understandable.
      >
      > Peter
      >
      > PS You're not stepping on people's toes here, I think - we love all
      > kinds of border stuff. That includes tripoints.
      >
      > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Wallis" <hugh@o...> wrote:
      > > Hello Peter and Jimmy
      > >
      > > I have visited this tripoint and you can find the results of my
      > visit
      > > documented at http://tinyurl.com/baglc
      > >
      > > I have copied this to boundarypoint since I have now been reliably
      > informed
      > > that is the correct place to discuss tripointing and I don't want
      > to step on
      > > people's toes, being new and all :)
      > >
      > > Cheers
      > >
      > > Hugh
      > >
      > >
      > > _____
      > >
      > > From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] On
      > > Behalf Of jimvandura
      > > Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 11:26 PM
      > > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: Spanish provincial tripoint marker... or
      >
      > not
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Smaardijk"
      > <smaardijk@y...>
      > > wrote:
      > > > On the website
      > http://www.albaiges.com/historia/historiatresreyes.htm
      > > > there is a picture of the tripoint of the Spanish regions
      > Navarre, La
      > > > Rioja, and Aragon (provinces Navarre, La Rioja, Zaragoza). It
      > should
      > > > be at the side of the road (the N113 according to my Michelin
      > road
      > > > map), and that road can be seen in the pictures. Convincing so
      > far.
      > > >
      > > > But on the map sites of Navarre ( http://sitna.tracasa.es/ ) and
      > La
      > > > Rioja (direct access to relevant map at
      > > > http://www.larioja.org/sig/imagenes/5000/25tp2927.gif )
      > the "mojón de
      > > > los tres reyes" is not at this roadside, but at the other side of
      >
      > the
      > > > railway, to the northwest of the location at the road.
      > > >
      > > > Maybe there are two markers: the "correct" one, and the one on
      > the
      > > > roadside. The one in the pictures very much resembles other such
      > > > roadside markers in Spain, which I suspect mark the border of the
      >
      > > > provincial road network authorities more accurately than that
      > they
      > > > mark the provincial territories themselves.
      > > >
      > > > Does somebody have any thoughts on this?
      > > >
      > > > Peter
      > >
      > > Hi! Jimmy Van Dura, class of '75, at your service, having just
      > joined both
      > > your fascinating
      > > point lists. And I was a little confused how this subject qualified
      >
      > as an
      > > international
      > > boundary topic rather than a tripoint topic. But I think you got it
      >
      > exactly
      > > right in the end,
      > > Peter, and that the pictures are not really "of the tripoint," as
      > they were
      > > said to be.
      > > It is amazing how much false information there is on the web,
      > but also
      > > how misleading
      > > the written word can be -- wherever it is found. For example,
      > seeing
      > > Zaragoza written on
      > > the sunny side on this triangular "Welcome To ..."
      > or "Entering ..." sign, a
      > > reader might
      > > expect to find more than just the scant hectare of Zaragoza that
      > remains
      > > between the
      > > roadway and the real mojon some few meters to its north! For in
      > fact the
      > > vast majority of
      > > Zaragoza lies exactly in the opposite direction!
      > > But is there someone in the neighborhood who might be able to
      > check and
      > > follow your
      > > detailed map to perhaps find the real border marker sitting on the
      > true
      > > tripoint? ...or the
      > > true tripoint sitting on the real border marker?
      > >
      > > Best,
      > > Jim
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > _____
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