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French borders curiosities

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  • olivier_24072006
    For my first post , hello to all. On the recently released webpage http://www.geoportail.fr/index.php?
    Message 1 of 4 , Jan 19, 2007
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      For my first post , hello to all. On the recently released webpage

      http://www.geoportail.fr/index.php?
      event=DisplayCartoVisu&url_insert=454c8017cd9addec9f7d2e88aa8ee6ae

      you have access to satelite pictures + very detailed maps for the
      whole France + some overseas territories.

      I uploaded 4 files with some places which may interest you. I tried
      to make the pictures easier to read and added a large scale map for
      each.

      "Chalet des prés" are 2 buildings located in Switzerland but
      accessible by road only from France, one may think their role had
      been to avoid french taxes. I didnt see anything related to this
      place on the web.

      In picture "Machilly" there is this road which links two french
      hamlets (Les Etoles and Les Places) but enters Switzerland for about
      200 m . It seems that Les Etoles cannot be reached via road without
      entering Switzerland. The website of the municipality does not
      provide any information.

      "Obenheim" : The green part is a "peninsula" on the right bank of
      the Rhine, which is thus in France because the border runs in the
      middle of the river. Without the bridge in blue, it couldnt be
      accessed from france without entering Germany. The website of
      Obenheim quotes that part of the city territory extends on the right
      bank of the Rhine.

      In the last picture "Hendaye" , the end of the pier shown in blue
      crosses the border and appears to be technically in France. If the
      location of the border is correct of course but I think it is the
      most precise one can find.

      Thank you for all the good reading you gave me here before
      Have a nice day

      Olivier
    • Peter Smaardijk
      Welcome, Olivier. I hope you like it here. Regarding the situation at Hendaia/Hendaye: I don t think the border is depicted correctly here. The Bidasoa river
      Message 2 of 4 , Jan 21, 2007
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        Welcome, Olivier. I hope you like it here.

        Regarding the situation at Hendaia/Hendaye: I don't think the border
        is depicted correctly here. The Bidasoa river and Txingudi bay (the
        last part of the Bidasoa between Hendaia/Hendaye and Hondarribia) are
        divided right down the middle between France and Spain, from
        Xapitelako Harria (near Endarlatsa, at border marker no. 1) down to
        the heads of the piers, where the Bidasoa enters the Figuier/Higuer
        bay. This last bay is a Franco-Spanish condominium for the bigger
        part of it. See, for example, http://tinyurl.com/2rjox8 . I am not
        sure if the border is correctly depicted here either, but it is one
        of the few maps I know of that depict the condominium border between
        the pier heads (at the top of the chart), so it gives this chart some
        credibility.

        French maps, for some reason, often push the international border
        right up to the Spanish river bank. This might be more or less
        correct for the southern part of Txingudi bay, where part of that bay
        was filled in in order to build the runway of Donostia/San Sebastian
        airport at Hondarribia, but I'm not sure if that's the case or not.
        For the rest, the border is in the middle of the river (including
        Txingudi bay).

        Peter

        --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "olivier_24072006"
        <olivier_24072006@...> wrote:
        >
        > For my first post , hello to all. On the recently released webpage
        >
        > http://www.geoportail.fr/index.php?
        > event=DisplayCartoVisu&url_insert=454c8017cd9addec9f7d2e88aa8ee6ae
        >
        > you have access to satelite pictures + very detailed maps for the
        > whole France + some overseas territories.
        >
        > I uploaded 4 files with some places which may interest you. I tried
        > to make the pictures easier to read and added a large scale map for
        > each.
        >
        > "Chalet des prés" are 2 buildings located in Switzerland but
        > accessible by road only from France, one may think their role had
        > been to avoid french taxes. I didnt see anything related to this
        > place on the web.
        >
        > In picture "Machilly" there is this road which links two french
        > hamlets (Les Etoles and Les Places) but enters Switzerland for
        about
        > 200 m . It seems that Les Etoles cannot be reached via road without
        > entering Switzerland. The website of the municipality does not
        > provide any information.
        >
        > "Obenheim" : The green part is a "peninsula" on the right bank of
        > the Rhine, which is thus in France because the border runs in the
        > middle of the river. Without the bridge in blue, it couldnt be
        > accessed from france without entering Germany. The website of
        > Obenheim quotes that part of the city territory extends on the
        right
        > bank of the Rhine.
        >
        > In the last picture "Hendaye" , the end of the pier shown in blue
        > crosses the border and appears to be technically in France. If the
        > location of the border is correct of course but I think it is the
        > most precise one can find.
        >
        > Thank you for all the good reading you gave me here before
        > Have a nice day
        >
        > Olivier
        >
      • Peter Smaardijk
        Hi Olivier, Attached are a Franco-Spanish fishing convention, which contains references to the division of Figuier/Higuer bay, and a map, published in one of
        Message 3 of 4 , Feb 4, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Olivier,

          Attached are a Franco-Spanish fishing convention, which contains
          references to the division of Figuier/Higuer bay, and a map, published
          in one of the articles on the Franco-Spanish border in the Basque
          country written by J. Descheemaeker and published in the journal
          "Eusko-Jakintza". The letters on this map are different from those in
          the convention, so keep in mind my message at
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/1577 (from 2001) in
          order to get a good picture of the actual divisions in this bay.

          I am not entirely sure, however, whether the map drawn by Descheemaeker
          is completely accurate, or if there were any changes made to these
          borders and to the border regime since then.

          All the best,

          Peter

          PS I'll post this on borderpoint as well, I'm sure you don't mind.
          --- olivier_24072006 <olivier_24072006@...> wrote:

          > I like it very much but regret , as everyone i think, not to have
          > the time to research more !
          >
          > I always thought too that the border was right in the middle of the
          > river but didnt knew of any condominium on the waters of the
          > Figuier/Higuer bay . When seeing these maps I uploaded I thought
          > that for some reason all the waters were french (michelin road map
          > depicts it strangely on the spanish side in the Figuier Bay then on
          > the french side in the next bay upriver, other maps in the middle )
          >
          > That would explain why the border is pushed south to the spanish
          > bank, as it is on the "île des faisans " condominium a little bit up
          > the river.
          >
          > Interesting situation with this airport.
          >
          > Do you know more informations about the bay ?
          >
          > Olivier
          >
          >
          > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Smaardijk"
          > <smaardijk@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Welcome, Olivier. I hope you like it here.
          > >
          > > Regarding the situation at Hendaia/Hendaye: I don't think the
          > border
          > > is depicted correctly here. The Bidasoa river and Txingudi bay
          > (the
          > > last part of the Bidasoa between Hendaia/Hendaye and Hondarribia)
          > are
          > > divided right down the middle between France and Spain, from
          > > Xapitelako Harria (near Endarlatsa, at border marker no. 1) down
          > to
          > > the heads of the piers, where the Bidasoa enters the
          > Figuier/Higuer
          > > bay. This last bay is a Franco-Spanish condominium for the bigger
          > > part of it. See, for example, http://tinyurl.com/2rjox8 . I am not
          > > sure if the border is correctly depicted here either, but it is
          > one
          > > of the few maps I know of that depict the condominium border
          > between
          > > the pier heads (at the top of the chart), so it gives this chart
          > some
          > > credibility.
          > >
          > > French maps, for some reason, often push the international border
          > > right up to the Spanish river bank. This might be more or less
          > > correct for the southern part of Txingudi bay, where part of that
          > bay
          > > was filled in in order to build the runway of Donostia/San
          > Sebastian
          > > airport at Hondarribia, but I'm not sure if that's the case or
          > not.
          > > For the rest, the border is in the middle of the river (including
          > > Txingudi bay).
          > >
          > > Peter
          > >
          > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "olivier_24072006"
          > > <olivier_24072006@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > For my first post , hello to all. On the recently released
          > webpage
          > > >
          > > > http://www.geoportail.fr/index.php?
          > > >
          > event=DisplayCartoVisu&url_insert=454c8017cd9addec9f7d2e88aa8ee6ae
          > > >
          > > > you have access to satelite pictures + very detailed maps for
          > the
          > > > whole France + some overseas territories.
          > > >
          > > > I uploaded 4 files with some places which may interest you. I
          > tried
          > > > to make the pictures easier to read and added a large scale map
          > for
          > > > each.
          > > >
          > > > "Chalet des prés" are 2 buildings located in Switzerland but
          > > > accessible by road only from France, one may think their role
          > had
          > > > been to avoid french taxes. I didnt see anything related to this
          > > > place on the web.
          > > >
          > > > In picture "Machilly" there is this road which links two french
          > > > hamlets (Les Etoles and Les Places) but enters Switzerland for
          > > about
          > > > 200 m . It seems that Les Etoles cannot be reached via road
          > without
          > > > entering Switzerland. The website of the municipality does not
          > > > provide any information.
          > > >
          > > > "Obenheim" : The green part is a "peninsula" on the right bank
          > of
          > > > the Rhine, which is thus in France because the border runs in
          > the
          > > > middle of the river. Without the bridge in blue, it couldnt be
          > > > accessed from france without entering Germany. The website of
          > > > Obenheim quotes that part of the city territory extends on the
          > > right
          > > > bank of the Rhine.
          > > >
          > > > In the last picture "Hendaye" , the end of the pier shown in
          > blue
          > > > crosses the border and appears to be technically in France. If
          > the
          > > > location of the border is correct of course but I think it is
          > the
          > > > most precise one can find.
          > > >
          > > > Thank you for all the good reading you gave me here before
          > > > Have a nice day
          > > >
          > > > Olivier
          > > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >




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        • L. A. Nadybal
          This goes back to Jan 20 postings. Olivier s illustration of the F-CH border E of Geneva is one of many little curiosities in this area- surrounding Geneva and
          Message 4 of 4 , Feb 25, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            This goes back to Jan 20 postings.

            Olivier's illustration of the F-CH border E of Geneva is one of many
            little curiosities in this area- surrounding Geneva and n the SE end
            of Lac Leman (Genfersee) is French customs excluded zone, much like
            Kleinwalsertal is to Austria. Swiss can transit all over this area
            without running into a French immigration post.

            In Peter's reply to Olivier, he pointed out French maps frequently
            push borders to the Spanish side of rivers. I noticed in many
            Luxembourg maps, that country's mapmakers, too, frequently do not
            differentiate between the motherland and areas of shared sovereignty,
            and push the river borders to the German side..... not to blame them,
            alone, though. I have German maps of the D-L border rivers where the
            Germans pushed the borders to the L side. Apparently having a border
            surround the outermost limits of sovereignty is customary for some,
            even if it means not recognizing the neighbor's overlapping share.

            Regards
            LN



            --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Smaardijk" <smaardijk@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Welcome, Olivier. I hope you like it here.
            >
            > Regarding the situation at Hendaia/Hendaye: I don't think the border
            > is depicted correctly here. The Bidasoa river and Txingudi bay (the
            > last part of the Bidasoa between Hendaia/Hendaye and Hondarribia) are
            > divided right down the middle between France and Spain, from
            > Xapitelako Harria (near Endarlatsa, at border marker no. 1) down to
            > the heads of the piers, where the Bidasoa enters the Figuier/Higuer
            > bay. This last bay is a Franco-Spanish condominium for the bigger
            > part of it. See, for example, http://tinyurl.com/2rjox8 . I am not
            > sure if the border is correctly depicted here either, but it is one
            > of the few maps I know of that depict the condominium border between
            > the pier heads (at the top of the chart), so it gives this chart some
            > credibility.
            >
            > French maps, for some reason, often push the international border
            > right up to the Spanish river bank. This might be more or less
            > correct for the southern part of Txingudi bay, where part of that bay
            > was filled in in order to build the runway of Donostia/San Sebastian
            > airport at Hondarribia, but I'm not sure if that's the case or not.
            > For the rest, the border is in the middle of the river (including
            > Txingudi bay).
            >
            > Peter
            >
            > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "olivier_24072006"
            > <olivier_24072006@> wrote:
            > >
            > > For my first post , hello to all. On the recently released webpage
            > >
            > > http://www.geoportail.fr/index.php?
            > > event=DisplayCartoVisu&url_insert=454c8017cd9addec9f7d2e88aa8ee6ae
            > >
            > > you have access to satelite pictures + very detailed maps for the
            > > whole France + some overseas territories.
            > >
            > > I uploaded 4 files with some places which may interest you. I tried
            > > to make the pictures easier to read and added a large scale map for
            > > each.
            > >
            > > "Chalet des prés" are 2 buildings located in Switzerland but
            > > accessible by road only from France, one may think their role had
            > > been to avoid french taxes. I didnt see anything related to this
            > > place on the web.
            > >
            > > In picture "Machilly" there is this road which links two french
            > > hamlets (Les Etoles and Les Places) but enters Switzerland for
            > about
            > > 200 m . It seems that Les Etoles cannot be reached via road without
            > > entering Switzerland. The website of the municipality does not
            > > provide any information.
            > >
            > > "Obenheim" : The green part is a "peninsula" on the right bank of
            > > the Rhine, which is thus in France because the border runs in the
            > > middle of the river. Without the bridge in blue, it couldnt be
            > > accessed from france without entering Germany. The website of
            > > Obenheim quotes that part of the city territory extends on the
            > right
            > > bank of the Rhine.
            > >
            > > In the last picture "Hendaye" , the end of the pier shown in blue
            > > crosses the border and appears to be technically in France. If the
            > > location of the border is correct of course but I think it is the
            > > most precise one can find.
            > >
            > > Thank you for all the good reading you gave me here before
            > > Have a nice day
            > >
            > > Olivier
            > >
            >
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