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RE: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia question

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  • Hugh Wallis
    The impression I got from reading other pages on the site was that some border fence s etc. might have been some km inside Czechoslovakia in some places and
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 1, 2006
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      The impression I got from reading other pages on the site was that some
      border "fence"s etc. might have been some km inside Czechoslovakia in some
      places and so not always visible from West Germany

      -----Original Message-----
      From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Lowell G. McManus
      Sent: October 31, 2006 11:47 PM
      To: BORDERpoint
      Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia question

      The captions on the West German-Czechoslovak border photos say that they are
      from 1985, 1987, and 1989.

      Yes, they are beautiful photos.

      Lowell G. McManus
      Leesville, Louisiana, USA


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "L. A. Nadybal" <lnadybal@...>
      To: <borderpoint@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 10:02 PM
      Subject: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia question


      Some very nice photos on Mr. Rose's site.
      Why would you be confused finding no fences on the no-longer-in
      existence-border anymore, so long after the "fall of the wall"?
      LN


      --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "wolffeuer88" <michaelnelson@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Hello folks,
      >
      > This is my first post in this group, and I´ll start with a question.
      >
      > I recently saw some pictures of the West German - Czechoslovakian
      > border from 1985.
      >
      > These pictures can be found here
      >
      > http://www.brianrose.com/lostborder/curtain2.htm
      >
      > I was a little confused because there are no fences in sight, no
      > borderpatrol like at the german-german border. What do you know about
      > the border ?
      >
      > This might not be the typical stuff you normaly talk about in this
      group;)
      >
      > Greetings,
      > Mike (the probably youngest borderfreak in the whole world :) )
      >






      Yahoo! Groups Links








      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • Jesper Nielsen
      I am also of the impression that Czechoslovakia had a 100 meter off limits border area. I have another questions regarding our old iron curtain. Since the iron
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 1, 2006
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        I am also of the impression that Czechoslovakia had a 100 meter off
        limits border area.

        I have another questions regarding our old iron curtain. Since the
        iron curtain was the frontier of the west and east during the cold
        war, what did the west do to guard it? Looking a eg the Berlin Wall
        you get the impression that the east were pretty hard line while the
        west hardly cared.

        Jesper

        --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Wallis" <hugh@...> wrote:
        >
        > The impression I got from reading other pages on the site was that
        some
        > border "fence"s etc. might have been some km inside Czechoslovakia
        in some
        > places and so not always visible from West Germany
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf Of Lowell G. McManus
        > Sent: October 31, 2006 11:47 PM
        > To: BORDERpoint
        > Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia
        question
        >
        > The captions on the West German-Czechoslovak border photos say
        that they are
        > from 1985, 1987, and 1989.
        >
        > Yes, they are beautiful photos.
        >
        > Lowell G. McManus
        > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "L. A. Nadybal" <lnadybal@...>
        > To: <borderpoint@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 10:02 PM
        > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia question
        >
        >
        > Some very nice photos on Mr. Rose's site.
        > Why would you be confused finding no fences on the no-longer-in
        > existence-border anymore, so long after the "fall of the wall"?
        > LN
        >
        >
        > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "wolffeuer88" <michaelnelson@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello folks,
        > >
        > > This is my first post in this group, and I´ll start with a
        question.
        > >
        > > I recently saw some pictures of the West German - Czechoslovakian
        > > border from 1985.
        > >
        > > These pictures can be found here
        > >
        > > http://www.brianrose.com/lostborder/curtain2.htm
        > >
        > > I was a little confused because there are no fences in sight, no
        > > borderpatrol like at the german-german border. What do you know
        about
        > > the border ?
        > >
        > > This might not be the typical stuff you normaly talk about in
        this
        > group;)
        > >
        > > Greetings,
        > > Mike (the probably youngest borderfreak in the whole world :) )
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
      • Hugh Wallis
        I think that the NATO military presence in the border states was the guarding that the West did. The East was also concerned with preventing their citizens
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 1, 2006
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          I think that the NATO military presence in the border states was the
          guarding that the West did. The East was also concerned with preventing
          their citizens from "escaping" to the west and these fences were mostly
          geared towards individuals rather than tanks and the like. I think that the
          West felt that if someone really wanted to "escape" to the East then good
          luck to them.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of Jesper Nielsen
          Sent: November 1, 2006 9:46 AM
          To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia question

          I am also of the impression that Czechoslovakia had a 100 meter off limits
          border area.

          I have another questions regarding our old iron curtain. Since the iron
          curtain was the frontier of the west and east during the cold war, what did
          the west do to guard it? Looking a eg the Berlin Wall you get the impression
          that the east were pretty hard line while the west hardly cared.

          Jesper

          --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Wallis" <hugh@...> wrote:
          >
          > The impression I got from reading other pages on the site was that
          some
          > border "fence"s etc. might have been some km inside Czechoslovakia
          in some
          > places and so not always visible from West Germany
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of Lowell G. McManus
          > Sent: October 31, 2006 11:47 PM
          > To: BORDERpoint
          > Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia
          question
          >
          > The captions on the West German-Czechoslovak border photos say
          that they are
          > from 1985, 1987, and 1989.
          >
          > Yes, they are beautiful photos.
          >
          > Lowell G. McManus
          > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "L. A. Nadybal" <lnadybal@...>
          > To: <borderpoint@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 10:02 PM
          > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia question
          >
          >
          > Some very nice photos on Mr. Rose's site.
          > Why would you be confused finding no fences on the no-longer-in
          > existence-border anymore, so long after the "fall of the wall"?
          > LN
          >
          >
          > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "wolffeuer88" <michaelnelson@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello folks,
          > >
          > > This is my first post in this group, and I´ll start with a
          question.
          > >
          > > I recently saw some pictures of the West German - Czechoslovakian
          > > border from 1985.
          > >
          > > These pictures can be found here
          > >
          > > http://www.brianrose.com/lostborder/curtain2.htm
          > >
          > > I was a little confused because there are no fences in sight, no
          > > borderpatrol like at the german-german border. What do you know
          about
          > > the border ?
          > >
          > > This might not be the typical stuff you normaly talk about in
          this
          > group;)
          > >
          > > Greetings,
          > > Mike (the probably youngest borderfreak in the whole world :) )
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >






          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Roger McCutcheon
          After the Second World War Germany was divided into four zones of occupation: American, British, French and Soviet. Berlin was separately divided likewise. In
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 1, 2006
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            After the Second World War Germany was divided into four zones of
            occupation: American, British, French and Soviet. Berlin was separately
            divided likewise. In 1946 in Fulton, Missouri, Winston Churchill said
            "From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic an Iron Curtain has
            descended across the Continent...", but he had not coined that phrase. The
            militarization of the border between East and West in Europe was
            essentially to prevent the escape westwards of those in the East: that is
            why East German border guards were supposed to shoot to kill anyone trying
            to cross to the west without authorization. Western concerns, on the other
            hand, were to prevent the extension westwards of Soviet hegemony. I
            happened to be in Poland in August 1961 when the border between East and
            West Berlin was closed, and bought there a copy of the Manchester Guardian
            which had on its front page a photo of an armed East German border guard
            jumping into the west to escape himself! As I had recently visited the
            Nazi Extermination Camp at Auschwitz I could understand why there was
            little sympathy evident in Poland for the fate of Germans. Seven years
            later, just after the invasion of Czechoslovakia by its Warsaw Pact allies
            to "normalize the situation", i.e. to put an end to the "Prague Spring", I
            was in Yugoslavia, from where I went on an excursion into Albania whose
            border was protected by an electrified fence. I disingenuously asked the
            Albanian guide who came onto our coach at the border why the fence was
            electrified: he replied "to keep the Yugoslavs out". The following year I
            was in a terribly subdued Prague, where it was explained to me that
            "normalization is when your friend sticks a knife in your back and keeps
            it there till the wound heals". I believe it was Pascal who remarked "we
            perceive an image of truth, but we live a lie"! Roger & out.
          • Peter Smaardijk
            As far as the inner German border is concerned, there was also the fact that the Federal Republic didn t recognise the border as being an international border.
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 1, 2006
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              As far as the inner German border is concerned, there was also the
              fact that the Federal Republic didn't recognise the border as being
              an international border. Political correctness sometimes lead to
              calling the GDR "the Soviet zone", "the eastern zone", or (not really
              politically correct towards the Poles, but the Oder-Neisse border
              wasn't recognised by the West Germans until about 1970) "Central
              Germany".

              But the West Germans _did_ patrol the inner German border. Every
              refugee was interrogated, in case it wasn't really a refugee, but an
              infiltrating spy.

              Peter

              --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Wallis" <hugh@...> wrote:
              >
              > I think that the NATO military presence in the border states was the
              > guarding that the West did. The East was also concerned with
              preventing
              > their citizens from "escaping" to the west and these fences were
              mostly
              > geared towards individuals rather than tanks and the like. I think
              that the
              > West felt that if someone really wanted to "escape" to the East
              then good
              > luck to them.
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf Of Jesper Nielsen
              > Sent: November 1, 2006 9:46 AM
              > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia question
              >
              > I am also of the impression that Czechoslovakia had a 100 meter off
              limits
              > border area.
              >
              > I have another questions regarding our old iron curtain. Since the
              iron
              > curtain was the frontier of the west and east during the cold war,
              what did
              > the west do to guard it? Looking a eg the Berlin Wall you get the
              impression
              > that the east were pretty hard line while the west hardly cared.
              >
              > Jesper
              >
              > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Wallis" <hugh@> wrote:
              > >
              > > The impression I got from reading other pages on the site was that
              > some
              > > border "fence"s etc. might have been some km inside Czechoslovakia
              > in some
              > > places and so not always visible from West Germany
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] On
              > > Behalf Of Lowell G. McManus
              > > Sent: October 31, 2006 11:47 PM
              > > To: BORDERpoint
              > > Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia
              > question
              > >
              > > The captions on the West German-Czechoslovak border photos say
              > that they are
              > > from 1985, 1987, and 1989.
              > >
              > > Yes, they are beautiful photos.
              > >
              > > Lowell G. McManus
              > > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
              > >
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "L. A. Nadybal" <lnadybal@>
              > > To: <borderpoint@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 10:02 PM
              > > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia question
              > >
              > >
              > > Some very nice photos on Mr. Rose's site.
              > > Why would you be confused finding no fences on the no-longer-in
              > > existence-border anymore, so long after the "fall of the wall"?
              > > LN
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "wolffeuer88" <michaelnelson@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hello folks,
              > > >
              > > > This is my first post in this group, and I´ll start with a
              > question.
              > > >
              > > > I recently saw some pictures of the West German -
              Czechoslovakian
              > > > border from 1985.
              > > >
              > > > These pictures can be found here
              > > >
              > > > http://www.brianrose.com/lostborder/curtain2.htm
              > > >
              > > > I was a little confused because there are no fences in sight,
              no
              > > > borderpatrol like at the german-german border. What do you know
              > about
              > > > the border ?
              > > >
              > > > This might not be the typical stuff you normaly talk about in
              > this
              > > group;)
              > > >
              > > > Greetings,
              > > > Mike (the probably youngest borderfreak in the whole world :) )
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
            • wolffeuer88
              Well, thx for your information. I once talked to a former westgerman border police officer, and he told me that they were sometimes sending weird and senseless
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 1, 2006
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                Well, thx for your information.
                I once talked to a former westgerman border police officer, and he
                told me that they were sometimes sending weird and senseless radio
                messages over to the west to confuse them ^^
                Another thing was that they were checking out the borderland and
                looked for unusual actions.

                Mike

                --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Smaardijk" <smaardijk@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > As far as the inner German border is concerned, there was also the
                > fact that the Federal Republic didn't recognise the border as being
                > an international border. Political correctness sometimes lead to
                > calling the GDR "the Soviet zone", "the eastern zone", or (not really
                > politically correct towards the Poles, but the Oder-Neisse border
                > wasn't recognised by the West Germans until about 1970) "Central
                > Germany".
                >
                > But the West Germans _did_ patrol the inner German border. Every
                > refugee was interrogated, in case it wasn't really a refugee, but an
                > infiltrating spy.
                >
                > Peter
                >
                > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Wallis" <hugh@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I think that the NATO military presence in the border states was the
                > > guarding that the West did. The East was also concerned with
                > preventing
                > > their citizens from "escaping" to the west and these fences were
                > mostly
                > > geared towards individuals rather than tanks and the like. I think
                > that the
                > > West felt that if someone really wanted to "escape" to the East
                > then good
                > > luck to them.
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] On
                > > Behalf Of Jesper Nielsen
                > > Sent: November 1, 2006 9:46 AM
                > > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia question
                > >
                > > I am also of the impression that Czechoslovakia had a 100 meter off
                > limits
                > > border area.
                > >
                > > I have another questions regarding our old iron curtain. Since the
                > iron
                > > curtain was the frontier of the west and east during the cold war,
                > what did
                > > the west do to guard it? Looking a eg the Berlin Wall you get the
                > impression
                > > that the east were pretty hard line while the west hardly cared.
                > >
                > > Jesper
                > >
                > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Wallis" <hugh@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > The impression I got from reading other pages on the site was that
                > > some
                > > > border "fence"s etc. might have been some km inside Czechoslovakia
                > > in some
                > > > places and so not always visible from West Germany
                > > >
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                > > [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] On
                > > > Behalf Of Lowell G. McManus
                > > > Sent: October 31, 2006 11:47 PM
                > > > To: BORDERpoint
                > > > Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia
                > > question
                > > >
                > > > The captions on the West German-Czechoslovak border photos say
                > > that they are
                > > > from 1985, 1987, and 1989.
                > > >
                > > > Yes, they are beautiful photos.
                > > >
                > > > Lowell G. McManus
                > > > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > From: "L. A. Nadybal" <lnadybal@>
                > > > To: <borderpoint@yahoogroups.com>
                > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 10:02 PM
                > > > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia question
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Some very nice photos on Mr. Rose's site.
                > > > Why would you be confused finding no fences on the no-longer-in
                > > > existence-border anymore, so long after the "fall of the wall"?
                > > > LN
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "wolffeuer88" <michaelnelson@>
                > > > wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Hello folks,
                > > > >
                > > > > This is my first post in this group, and I´ll start with a
                > > question.
                > > > >
                > > > > I recently saw some pictures of the West German -
                > Czechoslovakian
                > > > > border from 1985.
                > > > >
                > > > > These pictures can be found here
                > > > >
                > > > > http://www.brianrose.com/lostborder/curtain2.htm
                > > > >
                > > > > I was a little confused because there are no fences in sight,
                > no
                > > > > borderpatrol like at the german-german border. What do you know
                > > about
                > > > > the border ?
                > > > >
                > > > > This might not be the typical stuff you normaly talk about in
                > > this
                > > > group;)
                > > > >
                > > > > Greetings,
                > > > > Mike (the probably youngest borderfreak in the whole world :) )
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                >
              • Chris Schulz
                ... From: Roger McCutcheon To: Borderpoint Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 5:01 PM Subject: Re:
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 1, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Roger McCutcheon" <rogerdwmac@...>
                  To: "Borderpoint" <borderpoint@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 5:01 PM
                  Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia question

                  > I happened to be in Poland in August 1961 when the border between East
                  > and
                  > West Berlin was closed, and bought there a copy of the Manchester
                  > Guardian
                  > which had on its front page a photo of an armed East German border
                  > guard
                  > jumping into the west to escape himself!

                  http://www.bpb.de/cache/images/FDB3EO_290x275.jpg

                  Regards, Chris
                • Roger McCutcheon
                  Yep, that s the one! Thanks, Chris. Roger & out.
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 1, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Yep, that's the one! Thanks, Chris. Roger & out.
                  • Peter Smaardijk
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_Schumann Peter ... __________________________________________________________________________________________ Check out the
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 2, 2006
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                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_Schumann
                      Peter

                      --- Roger McCutcheon <rogerdwmac@...> wrote:

                      > Yep, that's the one! Thanks, Chris. Roger & out.
                      >




                      __________________________________________________________________________________________
                      Check out the New Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.
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                    • Jan S. Krogh
                      More information about the exact point the photo was taken (only in German): http://www.berlin.de/mauergedenken/gedenkstaetten/berliner_mauer.de.php#2 Jan
                      Message 10 of 18 , Nov 2, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        More information about the exact point the photo was taken (only in German):
                         
                         
                        Jan
                      • L. A. Nadybal
                        I worked in an Army public affairs office where the command had responsibility for the border area from Fulda southward to Austria. There were places,
                        Message 11 of 18 , Nov 2, 2006
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                          I worked in an Army public affairs office where the command had
                          responsibility for the border area from Fulda southward to Austria.
                          There were places, especially where trains crossed the D-CZ border,
                          where there was a zone deep enough to enclose a train between fences
                          on the east Czech side. There were areas where a fence existed as
                          much as a km or so inside CZ, beyond which locals could not go - to
                          prevent them from even approaching the border area.

                          I recall one incident I covered where a watch dog of the E germans
                          broke loose from his leash on the east side and jumped the fence and
                          appraoched the GIs on the west side - the fence was so "thin" at that
                          point - not far from Coburg. I was really surpried when the GIs
                          called the E German border guards, and arranged a meeting at a gate
                          through the fence. The E Germans opened the gate, and the GIs shoved
                          the dog back through to the east. After that, hands were shaken, and
                          the gate was closed.

                          Nowhere around that area did it look like the Berlin Wall - just a
                          high fence in back of W. German and E. German border markers. In a
                          photo, it would all look so peaceful.

                          Further to the rear of the forward positions around Coburg were small
                          US outposts, from which the troops would set out to march or drive
                          along the border. Sometimes, W. German troops would accompany them.
                          In the Fulda area, where the US Army figured the Russians would first
                          come across the border in an invasion of the West, the troop strength
                          was immense - but for the local west Germans, not visible at all.
                          After alll, on the W. side there was a 5km zone, too, beyond which GIs
                          and others associated with the military were forbidden to enter except
                          on guard duty. Germans could proceed right to the border, but they
                          generally did not - the areas were relatively empty compare to other
                          rural German areas, except where towns were located near the borders
                          or where there were official border crossing points.

                          Regards
                          LN



                          --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Jesper Nielsen" <jesper@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I am also of the impression that Czechoslovakia had a 100 meter off
                          > limits border area.
                          >
                          > I have another questions regarding our old iron curtain. Since the
                          > iron curtain was the frontier of the west and east during the cold
                          > war, what did the west do to guard it? Looking a eg the Berlin Wall
                          > you get the impression that the east were pretty hard line while the
                          > west hardly cared.
                          >
                          > Jesper
                          >
                          > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Wallis" <hugh@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > The impression I got from reading other pages on the site was that
                          > some
                          > > border "fence"s etc. might have been some km inside Czechoslovakia
                          > in some
                          > > places and so not always visible from West Germany
                          > >
                          > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                          > [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] On
                          > > Behalf Of Lowell G. McManus
                          > > Sent: October 31, 2006 11:47 PM
                          > > To: BORDERpoint
                          > > Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia
                          > question
                          > >
                          > > The captions on the West German-Czechoslovak border photos say
                          > that they are
                          > > from 1985, 1987, and 1989.
                          > >
                          > > Yes, they are beautiful photos.
                          > >
                          > > Lowell G. McManus
                          > > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: "L. A. Nadybal" <lnadybal@>
                          > > To: <borderpoint@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 10:02 PM
                          > > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia question
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Some very nice photos on Mr. Rose's site.
                          > > Why would you be confused finding no fences on the no-longer-in
                          > > existence-border anymore, so long after the "fall of the wall"?
                          > > LN
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "wolffeuer88" <michaelnelson@>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Hello folks,
                          > > >
                          > > > This is my first post in this group, and I´ll start with a
                          > question.
                          > > >
                          > > > I recently saw some pictures of the West German - Czechoslovakian
                          > > > border from 1985.
                          > > >
                          > > > These pictures can be found here
                          > > >
                          > > > http://www.brianrose.com/lostborder/curtain2.htm
                          > > >
                          > > > I was a little confused because there are no fences in sight, no
                          > > > borderpatrol like at the german-german border. What do you know
                          > about
                          > > > the border ?
                          > > >
                          > > > This might not be the typical stuff you normaly talk about in
                          > this
                          > > group;)
                          > > >
                          > > > Greetings,
                          > > > Mike (the probably youngest borderfreak in the whole world :) )
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          >
                        • Hugh Wallis
                          I love these kinds of personal reminiscences - they add a touch of reality to the whole subject. Thanks Len. My own, only, reminiscence relating to this border
                          Message 12 of 18 , Nov 3, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I love these kinds of personal reminiscences - they add a touch of reality
                            to the whole subject. Thanks Len.

                            My own, only, reminiscence relating to this border goes back to spring 1980
                            when I was young(er) and foolish(er) than I am now. I was visiting a
                            schoolchum of mine who was in the British military stationed in West Germany
                            and we took a drive into the Harz mountain region and went border hunting! I
                            remember him telling me that as a member of the military he shouldn't
                            actually be that close to the border but, as I said, we were young(er) and
                            foolish(er) than now.

                            Our first attempt to see the W/E German border was somewhere in the forest
                            round there - we parked the car (with UK Forces licence plates - bit of a
                            giveaway) and started to walk through the woods towards where we thought the
                            border was. This was before the days of GPS of course and we didn't have
                            detailed maps or even a compass so we got sort of lost and gave up. I can't
                            imagine why we were not better organised as we were both well trained and
                            competent map readers. I think our courage was failing us a bit as we didn't
                            want to accidentally cross the border, although that was probably not
                            possible if you had at least one third of your wits about you. So we drove
                            to another spot (which I can't find for certain on the map - this was over
                            26 years ago remember) which was right on the border. There was a small road
                            leading to a car park and it was a bit of a tourist type spot. You could see
                            an E German village in a valley and the border crossing on the nearby main
                            road from this side road. At this point the actual border was marked by
                            means of posts in the middle of a small stream and the E German fence and
                            guard towers were set back I would guess about 100m from the stream. My
                            friend deliberately parked his car in such a way that the E German guards
                            would not be able to see his licence plates. Unfortunately I think I paid
                            heed to his instructions not to take any photographs and so I have only my
                            memory of this left.

                            Cheers

                            Hugh

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] On
                            Behalf Of L. A. Nadybal
                            Sent: November 2, 2006 9:21 PM
                            To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia question

                            I worked in an Army public affairs office where the command had
                            responsibility for the border area from Fulda southward to Austria.
                            There were places, especially where trains crossed the D-CZ border, where
                            there was a zone deep enough to enclose a train between fences on the east
                            Czech side. There were areas where a fence existed as much as a km or so
                            inside CZ, beyond which locals could not go - to prevent them from even
                            approaching the border area.

                            I recall one incident I covered where a watch dog of the E germans broke
                            loose from his leash on the east side and jumped the fence and appraoched
                            the GIs on the west side - the fence was so "thin" at that point - not far
                            from Coburg. I was really surpried when the GIs called the E German border
                            guards, and arranged a meeting at a gate through the fence. The E Germans
                            opened the gate, and the GIs shoved the dog back through to the east. After
                            that, hands were shaken, and the gate was closed.

                            Nowhere around that area did it look like the Berlin Wall - just a high
                            fence in back of W. German and E. German border markers. In a photo, it
                            would all look so peaceful.

                            Further to the rear of the forward positions around Coburg were small US
                            outposts, from which the troops would set out to march or drive along the
                            border. Sometimes, W. German troops would accompany them.
                            In the Fulda area, where the US Army figured the Russians would first come
                            across the border in an invasion of the West, the troop strength was immense
                            - but for the local west Germans, not visible at all.
                            After alll, on the W. side there was a 5km zone, too, beyond which GIs and
                            others associated with the military were forbidden to enter except on guard
                            duty. Germans could proceed right to the border, but they generally did not
                            - the areas were relatively empty compare to other rural German areas,
                            except where towns were located near the borders or where there were
                            official border crossing points.

                            Regards
                            LN



                            --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Jesper Nielsen" <jesper@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I am also of the impression that Czechoslovakia had a 100 meter off
                            > limits border area.
                            >
                            > I have another questions regarding our old iron curtain. Since the
                            > iron curtain was the frontier of the west and east during the cold
                            > war, what did the west do to guard it? Looking a eg the Berlin Wall
                            > you get the impression that the east were pretty hard line while the
                            > west hardly cared.
                            >
                            > Jesper
                            >
                            > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Wallis" <hugh@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > The impression I got from reading other pages on the site was that
                            > some
                            > > border "fence"s etc. might have been some km inside Czechoslovakia
                            > in some
                            > > places and so not always visible from West Germany
                            > >
                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                            > [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] On
                            > > Behalf Of Lowell G. McManus
                            > > Sent: October 31, 2006 11:47 PM
                            > > To: BORDERpoint
                            > > Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia
                            > question
                            > >
                            > > The captions on the West German-Czechoslovak border photos say
                            > that they are
                            > > from 1985, 1987, and 1989.
                            > >
                            > > Yes, they are beautiful photos.
                            > >
                            > > Lowell G. McManus
                            > > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: "L. A. Nadybal" <lnadybal@>
                            > > To: <borderpoint@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 10:02 PM
                            > > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia question
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Some very nice photos on Mr. Rose's site.
                            > > Why would you be confused finding no fences on the no-longer-in
                            > > existence-border anymore, so long after the "fall of the wall"?
                            > > LN
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "wolffeuer88" <michaelnelson@>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Hello folks,
                            > > >
                            > > > This is my first post in this group, and I´ll start with a
                            > question.
                            > > >
                            > > > I recently saw some pictures of the West German - Czechoslovakian
                            > > > border from 1985.
                            > > >
                            > > > These pictures can be found here
                            > > >
                            > > > http://www.brianrose.com/lostborder/curtain2.htm
                            > > >
                            > > > I was a little confused because there are no fences in sight, no
                            > > > borderpatrol like at the german-german border. What do you know
                            > about
                            > > > the border ?
                            > > >
                            > > > This might not be the typical stuff you normaly talk about in
                            > this
                            > > group;)
                            > > >
                            > > > Greetings,
                            > > > Mike (the probably youngest borderfreak in the whole world :) )
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            >






                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • Peter Smaardijk
                            It is true that the inner German border didn t look like the Berlin wall - for most of the stretch. But sometimes, a wall _was_ built. This was when there was
                            Message 13 of 18 , Nov 4, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              It is true that the inner German border didn't look like the Berlin
                              wall - for most of the stretch. But sometimes, a wall _was_ built.
                              This was when there was an East German village very close to the
                              border. The smallest villages, farms, other buildings etc., that were
                              very close, normally were demolished, and the inhabitants relocated
                              elsewhere in East Germany (there is a string of demolished hamlets
                              along the old border). When this was not viable, a wall was built,
                              not only to stop illegal crossings, but also to block the view. This
                              was the case in Mödlareuth, amongst other places (see
                              http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/tt/59b93/ ).
                              For a schematic view of the border in the 'eighties, see
                              http://www.kai-koeker.de/reisen_eu_ddr_grenzsperr1.htm .
                              Peter

                              --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A. Nadybal" <lnadybal@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > I worked in an Army public affairs office where the command had
                              > responsibility for the border area from Fulda southward to Austria.
                              > There were places, especially where trains crossed the D-CZ border,
                              > where there was a zone deep enough to enclose a train between fences
                              > on the east Czech side. There were areas where a fence existed as
                              > much as a km or so inside CZ, beyond which locals could not go - to
                              > prevent them from even approaching the border area.
                              >
                              > I recall one incident I covered where a watch dog of the E germans
                              > broke loose from his leash on the east side and jumped the fence and
                              > appraoched the GIs on the west side - the fence was so "thin" at
                              that
                              > point - not far from Coburg. I was really surpried when the GIs
                              > called the E German border guards, and arranged a meeting at a gate
                              > through the fence. The E Germans opened the gate, and the GIs
                              shoved
                              > the dog back through to the east. After that, hands were shaken,
                              and
                              > the gate was closed.
                              >
                              > Nowhere around that area did it look like the Berlin Wall - just a
                              > high fence in back of W. German and E. German border markers. In a
                              > photo, it would all look so peaceful.
                              >
                              > Further to the rear of the forward positions around Coburg were
                              small
                              > US outposts, from which the troops would set out to march or drive
                              > along the border. Sometimes, W. German troops would accompany them.
                              > In the Fulda area, where the US Army figured the Russians would
                              first
                              > come across the border in an invasion of the West, the troop
                              strength
                              > was immense - but for the local west Germans, not visible at all.
                              > After alll, on the W. side there was a 5km zone, too, beyond which
                              GIs
                              > and others associated with the military were forbidden to enter
                              except
                              > on guard duty. Germans could proceed right to the border, but they
                              > generally did not - the areas were relatively empty compare to other
                              > rural German areas, except where towns were located near the borders
                              > or where there were official border crossing points.
                              >
                              > Regards
                              > LN
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Jesper Nielsen" <jesper@>
                              wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I am also of the impression that Czechoslovakia had a 100 meter
                              off
                              > > limits border area.
                              > >
                              > > I have another questions regarding our old iron curtain. Since
                              the
                              > > iron curtain was the frontier of the west and east during the
                              cold
                              > > war, what did the west do to guard it? Looking a eg the Berlin
                              Wall
                              > > you get the impression that the east were pretty hard line while
                              the
                              > > west hardly cared.
                              > >
                              > > Jesper
                              > >
                              > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Wallis" <hugh@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > The impression I got from reading other pages on the site was
                              that
                              > > some
                              > > > border "fence"s etc. might have been some km inside
                              Czechoslovakia
                              > > in some
                              > > > places and so not always visible from West Germany
                              > > >
                              > > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > > From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                              > > [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] On
                              > > > Behalf Of Lowell G. McManus
                              > > > Sent: October 31, 2006 11:47 PM
                              > > > To: BORDERpoint
                              > > > Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia
                              > > question
                              > > >
                              > > > The captions on the West German-Czechoslovak border photos say
                              > > that they are
                              > > > from 1985, 1987, and 1989.
                              > > >
                              > > > Yes, they are beautiful photos.
                              > > >
                              > > > Lowell G. McManus
                              > > > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > > From: "L. A. Nadybal" <lnadybal@>
                              > > > To: <borderpoint@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 10:02 PM
                              > > > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia
                              question
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Some very nice photos on Mr. Rose's site.
                              > > > Why would you be confused finding no fences on the no-longer-in
                              > > > existence-border anymore, so long after the "fall of the wall"?
                              > > > LN
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "wolffeuer88"
                              <michaelnelson@>
                              > > > wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Hello folks,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > This is my first post in this group, and I´ll start with a
                              > > question.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I recently saw some pictures of the West German -
                              Czechoslovakian
                              > > > > border from 1985.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > These pictures can be found here
                              > > > >
                              > > > > http://www.brianrose.com/lostborder/curtain2.htm
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I was a little confused because there are no fences in sight,
                              no
                              > > > > borderpatrol like at the german-german border. What do you
                              know
                              > > about
                              > > > > the border ?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > This might not be the typical stuff you normaly talk about in
                              > > this
                              > > > group;)
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Greetings,
                              > > > > Mike (the probably youngest borderfreak in the whole
                              world :) )
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Barry Arnold
                              This is an iconic image and one can buy posters of this in Berlin today - or west berlin 20 years ago ...
                              Message 14 of 18 , Nov 26, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                This is an iconic image and one can buy posters of this in Berlin today - or
                                west berlin 20 years ago


                                >From: "Chris Schulz" <23568@...>
                                >Reply-To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                >To: <borderpoint@yahoogroups.com>
                                >Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia question
                                >Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 21:45:27 +0100
                                >
                                >
                                >----- Original Message -----
                                >From: "Roger McCutcheon" <rogerdwmac@...>
                                >To: "Borderpoint" <borderpoint@yahoogroups.com>
                                >Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 5:01 PM
                                >Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Re: West Germany - Czechoslovakia question
                                >
                                > > I happened to be in Poland in August 1961 when the border between East
                                > > and
                                > > West Berlin was closed, and bought there a copy of the Manchester
                                > > Guardian
                                > > which had on its front page a photo of an armed East German border
                                > > guard
                                > > jumping into the west to escape himself!
                                >
                                >http://www.bpb.de/cache/images/FDB3EO_290x275.jpg
                                >
                                >Regards, Chris
                                >

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