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RE: [borderpoint] territorial integrity and border infringemetns in Europe

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  • Jan S. Krogh
    Probably 9/11 ;-) Jan ... From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of d3vb0y@aol.com Sent: 10. september 2006 19:49 To:
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 10, 2006
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      Probably 9/11 ;-)
       
      Jan
       
      -----Original Message-----
      From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of d3vb0y@...
      Sent: 10. september 2006 19:49
      To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [borderpoint] territorial integrity and border infringemetns in Europe

      I was surprised, when taking the M.V. Coho ferry from Victoria to Port Angeles to be stopped by U.S. officials at BOTH ENDS of the trip; in B.C. before embarking and then also after getting off the ship in Washington.  Anybody know what that's about?
       
       
        

    • L. A. Nadybal
      Not so far fetched - between Germany (where their exit post is almost at the border and Switzerland at the Swiss border point called Bargen, north of
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 10, 2006
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        Not so far fetched - between Germany (where their exit post is almost
        at the border and Switzerland at the Swiss border point called Bargen,
        north of Schaffhausen but many km south of the border. The road while
        in CH skirts along the German border out of sight of the Swiss post.
        There is a many km gap between the two customs points (and a village
        between them where there is an exit from the main road). Even though
        there is no formal customs excluded zone here like at Livigno
        (Italy-Switz) or around Geneva (F-CH) - you can be stopped by the
        Swiss customs between the two posts - because if you get off the road,
        you become suspicious. Same with extended ferryboat rides that don't
        go far off the coast - people can ride up to them in small boats and
        deposit dutiable materials (and theoretically, people, too) on board,
        "between inspections".

        LN






        --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Jan S. Krogh" <jakro64@...> wrote:
        >
        > Probably 9/11 ;-)
        >
        > Jan
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]On
        > Behalf Of d3vb0y@...
        > Sent: 10. september 2006 19:49
        > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [borderpoint] territorial integrity and border
        infringemetns
        > in Europe
        >
        >
        >
        > I was surprised, when taking the M.V. Coho ferry from Victoria to Port
        > Angeles to be stopped by U.S. officials at BOTH ENDS of the trip; in
        B.C.
        > before embarking and then also after getting off the ship in Washington.
        > Anybody know what that's about?
        >
      • Lowell G. McManus
        To quote from Wikipedia: A man named Ahmed Ressam, an Algerian living in Canada, planned to bomb LAX in Los Angeles, California, United States. He was arrested
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 10, 2006
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          To quote from Wikipedia:
           
          A man named Ahmed Ressam, an Algerian living in Canada, planned to bomb LAX in Los Angeles, California, United States. He was arrested at the United States-Canada border in Port Angeles, Washington after crossing by ferry on December 14, 1999. Customs officials then found nitroglycerin and four timing devices concealed in a spare tire well of his automobile. He and three other Algerians stood trial for the crime. Ressam began cooperating with investigators in 2001. On July 27, 2005, he was sentenced to 22 years in prison.
           
          Lowell G. McManus
          Leesville, Louisiana, USA
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 11:48 AM
          Subject: Re: [borderpoint] territorial integrity and border infringemetns in Europe

          I was surprised, when taking the M.V. Coho ferry from Victoria to Port Angeles to be stopped by U.S. officials at BOTH ENDS of the trip; in B.C. before embarking and then also after getting off the ship in Washington.  Anybody know what that's about?
        • Jan S. Krogh
          Some 9 Sep statistics (though not very border related, but somehow anyway!): Population of the United States of America: 299,360,879. Persons killed on 9 Sep
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 10, 2006
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            Some 9 Sep statistics (though not very border related, but somehow anyway!):
             
            Population of the United States of America: 299,360,879.
            Persons killed on 9 Sep 01: about 3,000 (1,0021349516414267343195501507062e-5)
             
            Population of the Kingdom of Norway: 4,660,000.
            Persons killed on 29 Sep 04: 0 (When an Algerian man tried to crash one passenger airliner in North Norway.)
             
            BUT, would Norway start a war against Algeria IF 47 persons would be killed after a terrorist attack? 
            :-)))
             
            Jan
          • glenbowman2
            The closest official border crossing I live by is the German- French station at Goldener Bremm, a few kilometers from Forbach, FR. There are several smaller
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 11, 2006
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              The closest "official" border crossing I live by is the German-
              French station at Goldener Bremm, a few kilometers from Forbach, FR.
              There are several smaller crossings much closer to where I live, but
              they are on the back roads, and rarely, if ever, manned. The
              border/customs cops share the same parking lot, although separate
              office spaces in the shared building. Due to the layout of the
              parking lot, the French duty vehicles have to drive to the German
              end of the parking lot and turn left in order to merge with the
              French bound traffic. Same thing with a German duty vehicle having
              to drive through the border station into France on the main road and
              make a left turn 10 meters later to get to the customs parking lot.
              Plus the nearest place to eat is near the border, but on the German
              side. Either it is a convienence factor, or maybe these guys don't
              get all uppity about having to step over the line into the others
              fifedom.


              --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Dallen Timothy"
              <Dallen.Timothy@...> wrote:
              >
              > I noticed that many of the borders between Switzerland and its
              neighbors were infringed upon, albeit obviously legally, by armed
              customs officers of neighboring states. Just for example, the
              Austrian border agents at the Ruggell (FL) and Nofels (A) crossing
              are located at the Austrian customs station some 50 meters or so
              inside Liechtenstein. They share a structure with the CH/FL customs
              people.
              >
              > Another example was at the Basel CH-F crossing closest to the
              Rhein River. At this point, French customs with its armed officers
              is located about 40-50 meters inside Switzerland. Likewise, at the
              Lottstetten (D) crossing with Switzerland, the Swiss customs is
              located about 15 meters inside Germany. Just down the road at the
              Rheinau covered bridge crossing (which incidentally doesn't appear
              to have a customs station on the Swiss side), the German officer we
              talked to didn't understand what we were talking about. He was
              willing to walk to the middle of the covered bridge with us but
              wouldn't step across the line because it was forbidden to cross--
              that's when I brought up the question of the Lottstetten crossing
              just down the road. He didn't get it.
              >
              > At the main St Louis (F)-Basel (CH) crossing the customs people
              share a roof but have two different structures under it, and the
              border essentially goes between the two structures at a shart angle,
              slicing one corner of France's structure off into Switzerland.
              >
              > So, there must be some kind of bi-lateral arrangement for some
              crossing points but not for others. The arrangements must allow
              armed officers of one country to enter the territory of another
              country by some short distance to staff the customs and passport
              offices that are located on foreign soil. I'm not aware of this
              happening anywhere on the US-Canada or US-Mexico border. Even though
              US-Canada share many structures, the border invariably goes between
              the two offices and agents are NOT allowed to cross.
              >
              > Can anyone shed any more light on this? The two agents I talked to
              were not very helpful.
              >
              > Dallen
              >
            • Peter Smaardijk
              Most Dutch and Belgian and Dutch and German border posts were merged into combined Dutch/Belgian and Dutch/German border posts as a measure of
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 11, 2006
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                Most Dutch and Belgian and Dutch and German border posts were merged
                into combined Dutch/Belgian and Dutch/German border posts as a
                measure of cost-effectiveness. There were bilateral agreements
                regulating this, the one between Belgium and the Netherlands dating
                from April 13, 1948 ("Overeenkomst tussen België en Nederland
                betreffende de samenvoeging van douanebehandeling aan de Belgisch-
                Nederlandse grens"), and the one between Federal Germany and the
                Netherlands from May 30, 1958 ("Overeenkomst tussen het Koninkrijk
                der Nederlanden en de Bondsrepubliek Duitsland nopens de samenvoeging
                van de grenscontrole en de instelling van gemeenschappelijke
                spoorwegstations of van grensaflosstations aan de Nederlands-Duitse
                grens"). Around every border post, zones were designated where
                officials from the "other" country had the same authority to act as
                if they were in their own country.

                Peter

                --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "glenbowman2" <glenbowman2@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > The closest "official" border crossing I live by is the German-
                > French station at Goldener Bremm, a few kilometers from Forbach,
                FR.
                > There are several smaller crossings much closer to where I live,
                but
                > they are on the back roads, and rarely, if ever, manned. The
                > border/customs cops share the same parking lot, although separate
                > office spaces in the shared building. Due to the layout of the
                > parking lot, the French duty vehicles have to drive to the German
                > end of the parking lot and turn left in order to merge with the
                > French bound traffic. Same thing with a German duty vehicle having
                > to drive through the border station into France on the main road
                and
                > make a left turn 10 meters later to get to the customs parking lot.
                > Plus the nearest place to eat is near the border, but on the German
                > side. Either it is a convienence factor, or maybe these guys don't
                > get all uppity about having to step over the line into the others
                > fifedom.
                >
                >
                > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Dallen Timothy"
                > <Dallen.Timothy@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I noticed that many of the borders between Switzerland and its
                > neighbors were infringed upon, albeit obviously legally, by armed
                > customs officers of neighboring states. Just for example, the
                > Austrian border agents at the Ruggell (FL) and Nofels (A) crossing
                > are located at the Austrian customs station some 50 meters or so
                > inside Liechtenstein. They share a structure with the CH/FL customs
                > people.
                > >
                > > Another example was at the Basel CH-F crossing closest to the
                > Rhein River. At this point, French customs with its armed officers
                > is located about 40-50 meters inside Switzerland. Likewise, at the
                > Lottstetten (D) crossing with Switzerland, the Swiss customs is
                > located about 15 meters inside Germany. Just down the road at the
                > Rheinau covered bridge crossing (which incidentally doesn't appear
                > to have a customs station on the Swiss side), the German officer we
                > talked to didn't understand what we were talking about. He was
                > willing to walk to the middle of the covered bridge with us but
                > wouldn't step across the line because it was forbidden to cross--
                > that's when I brought up the question of the Lottstetten crossing
                > just down the road. He didn't get it.
                > >
                > > At the main St Louis (F)-Basel (CH) crossing the customs people
                > share a roof but have two different structures under it, and the
                > border essentially goes between the two structures at a shart
                angle,
                > slicing one corner of France's structure off into Switzerland.
                > >
                > > So, there must be some kind of bi-lateral arrangement for some
                > crossing points but not for others. The arrangements must allow
                > armed officers of one country to enter the territory of another
                > country by some short distance to staff the customs and passport
                > offices that are located on foreign soil. I'm not aware of this
                > happening anywhere on the US-Canada or US-Mexico border. Even
                though
                > US-Canada share many structures, the border invariably goes between
                > the two offices and agents are NOT allowed to cross.
                > >
                > > Can anyone shed any more light on this? The two agents I talked
                to
                > were not very helpful.
                > >
                > > Dallen
                > >
                >
              • Barry Arnold
                In Europe there are not huge gaps - but it is common that border controls are not on the actual line. Travelling around this summer there were lots of
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 13, 2006
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                  In Europe there are not huge gaps - but it is common that border controls
                  are not on the actual line. Travelling around this summer there were lots
                  of examples of this and most controls were staffed by both countries who
                  clearly drove their offical vehicles across the border to work:

                  http://www.flickr.com/photos/barry_432/220855903/in/set-72157594245363357/

                  is a Polish Border Vehicle in Germany - the railings behind the vehicle on
                  the other side of the road span the River.

                  http://www.flickr.com/photos/barry_432/221042928/

                  This border control is in Germany but jointly staffed.

                  In Gorlitz the pedestrian bridge is controlled on the Polish side by German
                  personnel only.

                  http://www.flickr.com/photos/barry_432/221093749/in/set-72157594245565080/

                  Barry


                  >From: "Nicky Gardner" <nicky@...>
                  >Reply-To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: [borderpoint] Re: territorial integrity / customs points not quite
                  >at borders
                  >Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 16:42:19 -0000
                  >
                  >Conversely, in many parts of the world there may be huge gaps between
                  >the two customs stations / entry control points. Many years back, I
                  >worked in North Africa and regularly crossed the Tunisian / Algerian
                  >border at Mides. The Algerian control point was, as I recall, at
                  >N�grine, 50 km west of the border. One then drove for an hour along
                  >poor roads to reach the actual border, which was entirely unmarked.
                  >Mides, the first village in Tunisia was well before the Tunisian entry
                  >and customs control which was not till after Tamerza. So 60 km between
                  >the two customs points, and two villages (both Tunisian) inbetween.
                  >Nicky
                  >
                  >
                  >--- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Jan S. Krogh" <jakro64@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Dallen,
                  > >
                  > > This is very typical in Europe. Two countries are making a treaty
                  >and the
                  > > custom line is moved from the boundary to the custom station. At a
                  >great
                  > > number of borders there is even only customs personell from one
                  >country
                  > > controlling everybody in and out - to both countries. Sometimes the
                  >custom
                  > > station can be many kilometres from the boundary line.
                  > >
                  > > Jan
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

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                • Barry Arnold
                  In my travels most passport and customs controls are not located on the border but some distance off - they can be jointly staffed as in the case of this
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 13, 2006
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                    In my travels most passport and customs controls are not located on the
                    border but some distance off - they can be jointly staffed as in the case of
                    this crossing on the CZDE border:

                    http://www.flickr.com/photos/barry_432/221042928/in/set-72157594245565080/

                    I saw German BGS vehicles in CZ and this Polish Border police vehicle across
                    the border in Germany - the railings across the road and behind the vehicle
                    is the bridge spanning the border:

                    http://www.flickr.com/photos/barry_432/220855903/in/set-72157594245363357/

                    In the picture below at the Polish end of the pedestrain bridge in Gorlitz
                    the passport contol was staffed by German personnel with no Polish presence:

                    http://www.flickr.com/photos/barry_432/221093749/in/set-72157594245565080/

                    Barry


                    >From: "Peter Smaardijk" <smaardijk@...>
                    >Reply-To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: [borderpoint] Re: territorial integrity and border infringemetns
                    >in Europe
                    >Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 18:05:35 -0000
                    >
                    >Most Dutch and Belgian and Dutch and German border posts were merged
                    >into combined Dutch/Belgian and Dutch/German border posts as a
                    >measure of cost-effectiveness. There were bilateral agreements
                    >regulating this, the one between Belgium and the Netherlands dating
                    >from April 13, 1948 ("Overeenkomst tussen Belgi� en Nederland
                    >betreffende de samenvoeging van douanebehandeling aan de Belgisch-
                    >Nederlandse grens"), and the one between Federal Germany and the
                    >Netherlands from May 30, 1958 ("Overeenkomst tussen het Koninkrijk
                    >der Nederlanden en de Bondsrepubliek Duitsland nopens de samenvoeging
                    >van de grenscontrole en de instelling van gemeenschappelijke
                    >spoorwegstations of van grensaflosstations aan de Nederlands-Duitse
                    >grens"). Around every border post, zones were designated where
                    >officials from the "other" country had the same authority to act as
                    >if they were in their own country.
                    >
                    >Peter
                    >
                    >--- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "glenbowman2" <glenbowman2@...>
                    >wrote:
                    > >
                    > > The closest "official" border crossing I live by is the German-
                    > > French station at Goldener Bremm, a few kilometers from Forbach,
                    >FR.
                    > > There are several smaller crossings much closer to where I live,
                    >but
                    > > they are on the back roads, and rarely, if ever, manned. The
                    > > border/customs cops share the same parking lot, although separate
                    > > office spaces in the shared building. Due to the layout of the
                    > > parking lot, the French duty vehicles have to drive to the German
                    > > end of the parking lot and turn left in order to merge with the
                    > > French bound traffic. Same thing with a German duty vehicle having
                    > > to drive through the border station into France on the main road
                    >and
                    > > make a left turn 10 meters later to get to the customs parking lot.
                    > > Plus the nearest place to eat is near the border, but on the German
                    > > side. Either it is a convienence factor, or maybe these guys don't
                    > > get all uppity about having to step over the line into the others
                    > > fifedom.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Dallen Timothy"
                    > > <Dallen.Timothy@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > I noticed that many of the borders between Switzerland and its
                    > > neighbors were infringed upon, albeit obviously legally, by armed
                    > > customs officers of neighboring states. Just for example, the
                    > > Austrian border agents at the Ruggell (FL) and Nofels (A) crossing
                    > > are located at the Austrian customs station some 50 meters or so
                    > > inside Liechtenstein. They share a structure with the CH/FL customs
                    > > people.
                    > > >
                    > > > Another example was at the Basel CH-F crossing closest to the
                    > > Rhein River. At this point, French customs with its armed officers
                    > > is located about 40-50 meters inside Switzerland. Likewise, at the
                    > > Lottstetten (D) crossing with Switzerland, the Swiss customs is
                    > > located about 15 meters inside Germany. Just down the road at the
                    > > Rheinau covered bridge crossing (which incidentally doesn't appear
                    > > to have a customs station on the Swiss side), the German officer we
                    > > talked to didn't understand what we were talking about. He was
                    > > willing to walk to the middle of the covered bridge with us but
                    > > wouldn't step across the line because it was forbidden to cross--
                    > > that's when I brought up the question of the Lottstetten crossing
                    > > just down the road. He didn't get it.
                    > > >
                    > > > At the main St Louis (F)-Basel (CH) crossing the customs people
                    > > share a roof but have two different structures under it, and the
                    > > border essentially goes between the two structures at a shart
                    >angle,
                    > > slicing one corner of France's structure off into Switzerland.
                    > > >
                    > > > So, there must be some kind of bi-lateral arrangement for some
                    > > crossing points but not for others. The arrangements must allow
                    > > armed officers of one country to enter the territory of another
                    > > country by some short distance to staff the customs and passport
                    > > offices that are located on foreign soil. I'm not aware of this
                    > > happening anywhere on the US-Canada or US-Mexico border. Even
                    >though
                    > > US-Canada share many structures, the border invariably goes between
                    > > the two offices and agents are NOT allowed to cross.
                    > > >
                    > > > Can anyone shed any more light on this? The two agents I talked
                    >to
                    > > were not very helpful.
                    > > >
                    > > > Dallen
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

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                  • Lowell G. McManus
                    I note from these photos and others that green is commonly used on border guard vehicles in many countries. Is there some degree of international recognition
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 14, 2006
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                      I note from these photos and others that green is commonly used on
                      border guard vehicles in many countries. Is there some degree of
                      international recognition of this? Attached are photo of US Border
                      Patrol vehicles in the newest and previous designs.

                      Lowell G. McManus
                      Leesville, Louisiana, USA


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Barry Arnold" <barry_432@...>
                      To: <borderpoint@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 2:00 PM
                      Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Re: territorial integrity and border
                      infringemetns in Europe


                      > In my travels most passport and customs controls are not located on
                      > the
                      > border but some distance off - they can be jointly staffed as in the
                      > case of
                      > this crossing on the CZDE border:
                      >
                      > http://www.flickr.com/photos/barry_432/221042928/in/set-72157594245565080/
                      >
                      > I saw German BGS vehicles in CZ and this Polish Border police vehicle
                      > across
                      > the border in Germany - the railings across the road and behind the
                      > vehicle
                      > is the bridge spanning the border:
                      >
                      > http://www.flickr.com/photos/barry_432/220855903/in/set-72157594245363357/
                      >
                      > In the picture below at the Polish end of the pedestrain bridge in
                      > Gorlitz
                      > the passport contol was staffed by German personnel with no Polish
                      > presence:
                      >
                      > http://www.flickr.com/photos/barry_432/221093749/in/set-72157594245565080/
                      >
                      > Barry
                    • Jan S. Krogh
                      Lowell, Maybe you are right. Green is a typical German police colour. Lithuanian border police has a green stripe on the sides of their vehicles:
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 18, 2006
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                        Lowell,
                         
                        Maybe you are right.  Green is a typical German police colour.
                        Lithuanian border police has a green stripe on the sides of their vehicles:
                         
                        Norway's land border to Russia are guarded by regular military units. (The borders to Finland and Sweden only by civilian police in ordinary colours.) However, due to the geography road vehicles are usual not used. Most typical are terrain vehicles like these, and without any green stripes:
                         
                        Jan
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