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Dear Aunt LM (1) Heaving to in big boxes

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  • Tim Fatchen
    Dear Wises, How did you heave to in LM2 in decent winds (ie 30knots & above)? What sort of sea/wind angle? How much forereaching and leeway? Even with a
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 10, 2001
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      Dear Wises,

      How did you heave to in LM2 in decent winds (ie 30knots & above)?
      What sort of sea/wind angle? How much forereaching and leeway?

      Even with a mizzen, we find Lady Kate the AS29 does not like looking
      to windward hove to and would prefer to go back to sailing, by herself
      if she can get awaay with it. This leads to the occasional
      interesting time when singlehanding and trying to tuck the third reef
      in... In contrast, Roger Keyes' Micro tucks herself docilely at 50
      degrees and gently slithers sideways, even in the 15m Southern Ocean
      swells.

      Tim & Flying Tadpole
    • Leo W. Foltz
      Tim, ever tried a car tire with some rope over the bow? ... Leo (cutting plywood for the deck of Twilight in Germany and waiting for Peter L. to come to Europe
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 18, 2001
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        Tim,

        ever tried a car tire with some rope over the bow?

        >Even with a mizzen, we find Lady Kate the AS29 does not like looking
        >to windward hove to

        Leo
        (cutting plywood for the deck of Twilight in Germany and waiting for Peter
        L. to come to Europe to help finish some Bolger boxes...)
      • Tim Fatchen
        Not really the point, Leo; in my shallow lakes we could easily just drop anchor. Actually, the shallowness may be part of the problem because the boards are
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 19, 2001
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          Not really the point, Leo; in my shallow lakes we could easily just
          drop anchor. Actually, the shallowness may be part of the problem
          because the boards are rarely fully down and board position makes a
          surprising difference. Anyway, Lady Kate's normal hove-to position
          is that of a catboat, beam on (in fact I used the techniques in Stan
          Grayson's "Catboats" to reef her). I just feel tho' that there's got
          to be a better way, and giving a singlehander more to do is not
          it!

          Tim & FLying Tadpole


          --- In bolger@egroups.com, "Leo W. Foltz" <leo@l...> wrote:
          > Tim,
          >
          > ever tried a car tire with some rope over the bow?
          >
          > >Even with a mizzen, we find Lady Kate the AS29 does not like
          looking
          > >to windward hove to
          >
          > Leo
          > (cutting plywood for the deck of Twilight in Germany and waiting for
          Peter
          > L. to come to Europe to help finish some Bolger boxes...)
        • Peter Vanderwaart
          ... In a review of the Nimble 24, there was a comment that the mizzen (carried over at the same size from the Nimble 20) was not big enough to keep the bow
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 19, 2001
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            > > >Even with a mizzen, we find Lady Kate the AS29 does not like
            > looking
            > > >to windward hove to

            In a review of the Nimble 24, there was a comment that the mizzen
            (carried over at the same size from the Nimble 20) was not big enough
            to keep the bow dead into the wind while the main was being raised. I
            was thinking about this while looking at a Bolger 39' yawl
            (simplified, centerboard, multichine) published in MAIB. The mizzen
            looks pretty small.

            I suppose the question is balance between the wind drag of the main
            mast (and its fittings, etc) vs the area of the mizzen. Does anyone
            have a notion of the 'normal' ratio of main mast to mizzen mast in a
            yawl? It would also seem that the farther forward the main mast is,
            the bigger the mizzen would have to be to get the desired effect.

            A final question: is it worth having a yawl at all if the mizzen
            isn't big enough for best effect during sail raising/lowering,
            heaving to, and anchoring? In other words, can it have enough useful
            effect on helm balance etc while under sail to be worthwhile anyway?

            Peter
          • John S Harper
            I m not sure about the appropriate ratio but on my Nimble 20 the ability of the mizzen to keep the bow pointed into the wind varied according to windspeed. At
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 19, 2001
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              I'm not sure about the appropriate ratio but on my Nimble 20 the ability of
              the mizzen to keep the bow pointed into the wind varied according to
              windspeed. At less than 15 knots of wind it would do ok at keeping the
              boat pointed into the wind while you raised the main. At greater than 15
              knots it wouldn't. I'm not sure exactly why that is but that was my
              experience. I should say that it would still keep you somewhere above a
              beam reach in greater winds just not as close to the wind.

              My 2 cents,
              John


              "Peter Vanderwaart" <pvanderw@...> on 01/19/2001 08:52:13 AM

              Please respond to bolger@egroups.com

              To: bolger@egroups.com
              cc:
              Subject: [bolger] Re: Dear Aunt LM (1) Heaving to in big boxes



              > > >Even with a mizzen, we find Lady Kate the AS29 does not like
              > looking
              > > >to windward hove to

              In a review of the Nimble 24, there was a comment that the mizzen
              (carried over at the same size from the Nimble 20) was not big enough
              to keep the bow dead into the wind while the main was being raised. I
              was thinking about this while looking at a Bolger 39' yawl
              (simplified, centerboard, multichine) published in MAIB. The mizzen
              looks pretty small.

              I suppose the question is balance between the wind drag of the main
              mast (and its fittings, etc) vs the area of the mizzen. Does anyone
              have a notion of the 'normal' ratio of main mast to mizzen mast in a
              yawl? It would also seem that the farther forward the main mast is,
              the bigger the mizzen would have to be to get the desired effect.

              A final question: is it worth having a yawl at all if the mizzen
              isn't big enough for best effect during sail raising/lowering,
              heaving to, and anchoring? In other words, can it have enough useful
              effect on helm balance etc while under sail to be worthwhile anyway?

              Peter


              Bolger rules!!!
              - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
              - no flogging dead horses
              - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
              - stay on topic and punctuate
              - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
            • Richard Spelling
              Entropy doesn t like to keep her nose into the wind either. However, plastic sloop pilots define heave-to , as drift slowly sideways while making swings
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 19, 2001
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                Entropy doesn't like to keep her nose into the wind either. However, plastic
                sloop pilots define "heave-to", as "drift slowly sideways while making
                swings windward and leeward"

                With the tiller loose (or possibly pushed to leeward, tends to drift there),
                and the mizzen sheeted in, Entropy will "heave-to" by this definition.

                Good enough for me to leave the helm to play with the sail.

                Richard Spelling, http://www.spellingbusiness.com/boats
                From the COLD muddy waters of Oklahoma


                > From: "Leo W. Foltz" <leo@...>
                > Subject: Re: Dear Aunt LM (1) Heaving to in big boxes
                >
                > Tim,
                >
                > ever tried a car tire with some rope over the bow?
                >
                > >Even with a mizzen, we find Lady Kate the AS29 does not like looking
                > >to windward hove to
                >
                > Leo
                > (cutting plywood for the deck of Twilight in Germany and waiting for Peter
                > L. to come to Europe to help finish some Bolger boxes...)
                >
                >
              • hwal@aol.com
                In a message dated 1/19/2001 9:17:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsharper@us.ibm.com writes:
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 19, 2001
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                  In a message dated 1/19/2001 9:17:03 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                  jsharper@... writes:

                  << I'm not sure about the appropriate ratio but on my Nimble 20 the ability of
                  the mizzen to keep the bow pointed into the wind varied according to
                  windspeed. At less than 15 knots of wind it would do ok at keeping the
                  boat pointed into the wind while you raised the main. >>

                  This conversation really seems to be spread out over a long period of time -
                  but about two weeks ago I recounted my martha jane experiences in this regard
                  - that with the new dual rudders I've discovered that the direction in which
                  one lashed the helm was a real key factor. Steve Anderson (MJ Landroval)
                • Peter Vanderwaart
                  ... than 15 ... Thanks for the observation. I would have thought that it would work better at higher wind speeds, within reason. Just goes to show what I
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jan 19, 2001
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                    >At less than 15 knots of wind it would do ok at keeping the
                    > boat pointed into the wind while you raised the main. At greater
                    than 15
                    > knots it wouldn't.

                    Thanks for the observation. I would have thought that it would work
                    better at higher wind speeds, within reason. Just goes to show what I
                    know....

                    As for my plastic sloop, about the only time I feel it is safe to
                    leave the helm is when the boat is moored fore and aft.

                    Peter
                  • Orr, Jamie
                    As for my plastic sloop, about the only time I feel it is safe to leave the helm is when the boat is moored fore and aft. Peter, build yourself a Chebacco --
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jan 19, 2001
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                      "As for my plastic sloop, about the only time I feel it is safe to
                      leave the helm is when the boat is moored fore and aft."

                      Peter, build yourself a Chebacco -- on my only outing during the holidays, I
                      found I could ignore the tiller (with or without the mizzen) for quite a
                      while. I was somewhere around a close reach or close hauled at the time.
                      (I didn't try other points as I had a destination in mind.) Sure makes
                      getting a snack and a cup of tea easy, though.

                      Jamie Orr
                    • Peter Lenihan
                      Where I sail my MICRO,there is a river current of 1.5kts and the lay of the lake versus prevailing winds makes it impossible to get her nose into the
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jan 20, 2001
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                        Where I sail my MICRO,there is a river current of 1.5kts and the
                        lay of the lake versus prevailing winds makes it impossible to get
                        her nose into the wind.....the current just sucks the whole boat
                        sideways.
                        However,the point made about windage from the mainmast so far
                        forward is interesting.When I lower my sails,in any kind of wind over
                        say 10kts,and starting with the mainsail first,the boat appears to
                        settle a bit off the wind.This quickly changes however,the minute I
                        furl the mizzen.Then she swings around and begins to slowly sail
                        downwind!That mainmast acts as a very small sail in strong enough
                        winds.........
                        As to the need for the mizzen;I tried,once,sailing my Micro
                        without the mizzen.Never had so much difficulty in all my life!The
                        tiller became a thing possessed and I just could not get her to point
                        like before.I concluded that the rudder area was just too small and
                        needs the mizzen to balance forces.Otherwise,it is just like a
                        regular catboat and would need one of those famous"barn door"rudders
                        with lots of area aft.
                        I cannot help but think that the off-set mizzen position may be
                        part of Tims' problem.In my minds' eye I see a wind vane and wonder
                        how well it would pivot into the wind were the "tail" end off-set
                        from the pivot centerline?I know Bolger has often mentioned that
                        regarding off-set centerboards and mizzens,"boats don't take any
                        notice of the asymmetry" and I guess this is true when actually
                        sailing the boats.Heaving to may be another story......
                        Also,for the boat to really weathercock nose to the wind,a dead
                        flat,locked-on-the-centerline sail would,it seems,be required.A sheet
                        of plywood comes to mind.
                        That's my frozen pennies worth to the discussion.
                        Sincerely,
                        Peter Lenihan,on the frozen shores of the St.Lawrence......




                        --- In bolger@egroups.com, "Peter Vanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
                        > > > >Even with a mizzen, we find Lady Kate the AS29 does not like
                        > > looking
                        > > > >to windward hove to
                        >
                        > In a review of the Nimble 24, there was a comment that the mizzen
                        > (carried over at the same size from the Nimble 20) was not big
                        enough
                        > to keep the bow dead into the wind while the main was being raised.
                        I
                        > was thinking about this while looking at a Bolger 39' yawl
                        > (simplified, centerboard, multichine) published in MAIB. The mizzen
                        > looks pretty small.
                        >
                        > I suppose the question is balance between the wind drag of the main
                        > mast (and its fittings, etc) vs the area of the mizzen. Does anyone
                        > have a notion of the 'normal' ratio of main mast to mizzen mast in
                        a
                        > yawl? It would also seem that the farther forward the main mast is,
                        > the bigger the mizzen would have to be to get the desired effect.
                        >
                        > A final question: is it worth having a yawl at all if the mizzen
                        > isn't big enough for best effect during sail raising/lowering,
                        > heaving to, and anchoring? In other words, can it have enough
                        useful
                        > effect on helm balance etc while under sail to be worthwhile anyway?
                        >
                        > Peter
                      • Frank San Miguel
                        The Drascombe is a yawl and she heaves-to like a dream, but she has a jib. You backwind the jib, sheet the mizzen flat, let the main fly (or lower it), and
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jan 20, 2001
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                          The Drascombe is a yawl and she heaves-to like a dream, but she has a
                          jib. You backwind the jib, sheet the mizzen flat, let the main fly
                          (or lower it), and throw the tiller to lee. The boat points about 40
                          degrees to the wind and drifts sideways. You can safely do this in a
                          gale if the waves aren't too steep, though you shoud reef the jib a
                          little first.

                          Frank

                          >
                          > A final question: is it worth having a yawl at all if the mizzen
                          > isn't big enough for best effect during sail raising/lowering,
                          > heaving to, and anchoring? In other words, can it have enough
                          useful
                          > effect on helm balance etc while under sail to be worthwhile anyway?
                          >
                          > Peter
                        • Langmuir
                          Greetings Peter, My experience with my Long Micro Thylacine heaving to is as follows. Mizzen sheeted flat, main furled. 10 knots: lies quietly head to wind. 15
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jan 20, 2001
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                            Greetings Peter,
                            My experience with my Long Micro Thylacine heaving to is as follows.
                            Mizzen sheeted flat, main furled.
                            10 knots: lies quietly head to wind.
                            15 knots: lies head to wind but veering 45 degrees either side of the true
                            wind.
                            20 knots: lies BROADSIDE to the wind.
                            25 knots: not tried despite having plenty of opportunity this summer.
                            I expect that the considerable windage of the mainmast right forward and the
                            bulk of the furled sail offsets the leverage of the mizzen. Dissappointing
                            as my last refuge during a summer squall would've been to sheet the mizzen
                            flat , drop the main and bolt down the hatch. That now looks unwise to put
                            it mildly.
                            Gavin Langmuir. Melbourne.

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Peter Lenihan <ellengaest@...>
                            To: <bolger@egroups.com>
                            Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2001 8:08 PM
                            Subject: [bolger] Re: Dear Aunt LM (1) Heaving to in big boxes


                            > Where I sail my MICRO,there is a river current of 1.5kts and the
                            > lay of the lake versus prevailing winds makes it impossible to get
                            > her nose into the wind.....the current just sucks the whole boat
                            > sideways.
                            > However,the point made about windage from the mainmast so far
                            > forward is interesting.When I lower my sails,in any kind of wind over
                            > say 10kts,and starting with the mainsail first,the boat appears to
                            > settle a bit off the wind.This quickly changes however,the minute I
                            > furl the mizzen.Then she swings around and begins to slowly sail
                            > downwind!That mainmast acts as a very small sail in strong enough
                            > winds.........
                            > As to the need for the mizzen;I tried,once,sailing my Micro
                            > without the mizzen.Never had so much difficulty in all my life!The
                            > tiller became a thing possessed and I just could not get her to point
                            > like before.I concluded that the rudder area was just too small and
                            > needs the mizzen to balance forces.Otherwise,it is just like a
                            > regular catboat and would need one of those famous"barn door"rudders
                            > with lots of area aft.
                            > I cannot help but think that the off-set mizzen position may be
                            > part of Tims' problem.In my minds' eye I see a wind vane and wonder
                            > how well it would pivot into the wind were the "tail" end off-set
                            > from the pivot centerline?I know Bolger has often mentioned that
                            > regarding off-set centerboards and mizzens,"boats don't take any
                            > notice of the asymmetry" and I guess this is true when actually
                            > sailing the boats.Heaving to may be another story......
                            > Also,for the boat to really weathercock nose to the wind,a dead
                            > flat,locked-on-the-centerline sail would,it seems,be required.A sheet
                            > of plywood comes to mind.
                            > That's my frozen pennies worth to the discussion.
                            > Sincerely,
                            > Peter Lenihan,on the frozen shores of the St.Lawrence......
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In bolger@egroups.com, "Peter Vanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
                            > > > > >Even with a mizzen, we find Lady Kate the AS29 does not like
                            > > > looking
                            > > > > >to windward hove to
                            > >
                            > > In a review of the Nimble 24, there was a comment that the mizzen
                            > > (carried over at the same size from the Nimble 20) was not big
                            > enough
                            > > to keep the bow dead into the wind while the main was being raised.
                            > I
                            > > was thinking about this while looking at a Bolger 39' yawl
                            > > (simplified, centerboard, multichine) published in MAIB. The mizzen
                            > > looks pretty small.
                            > >
                            > > I suppose the question is balance between the wind drag of the main
                            > > mast (and its fittings, etc) vs the area of the mizzen. Does anyone
                            > > have a notion of the 'normal' ratio of main mast to mizzen mast in
                            > a
                            > > yawl? It would also seem that the farther forward the main mast is,
                            > > the bigger the mizzen would have to be to get the desired effect.
                            > >
                            > > A final question: is it worth having a yawl at all if the mizzen
                            > > isn't big enough for best effect during sail raising/lowering,
                            > > heaving to, and anchoring? In other words, can it have enough
                            > useful
                            > > effect on helm balance etc while under sail to be worthwhile anyway?
                            > >
                            > > Peter
                            >
                            >
                            > Bolger rules!!!
                            > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
                            > - no flogging dead horses
                            > - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
                            > - stay on topic and punctuate
                            > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
                            >
                            >
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