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Re: Great Lake Cruiser

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  • bill@paxtonconsulting.com
    Peter, Thanks for the Micro endorsement. Two weeks on a Micro?! My hat is off to you. Did you ever wish you had built the Long Micro? Bill Paxton Frozen in
    Message 1 of 19 , Jan 1, 2001
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      Peter,

      Thanks for the Micro endorsement. Two weeks on a Micro?! My hat is
      off to you.

      Did you ever wish you had built the Long Micro?

      Bill Paxton
      Frozen in the ice of Minnesota's Twin Cities.

      --- In bolger@egroups.com, ellengaest@b... wrote:
      > Bill Paxton,
      > In a word and with barely constrained enthusiasm,I would
      > recommend the MICRO.
      > Virtually any boat that is built well can cruise the Great
      > Lakes.It all depends on the operational definition of what you mean
      > by"cruise".For some,nothing short of the Q.E. II will do while for
      > others a canoe with camping gear is the ultimate trip.Furthermore,I
      > believe safety is more a function of crew ability/experience then
      any
      > particular aspect of a boat.As you stated,the Great Lakes can be
      > extremely rough and its' history is peppered with all sorts of
      > maritime disasters both large and small.
      > As your query appears to suggest that your cruising may be
      > undertaken alone,the MICRO has ample room for you and your gear.I
      > have gone two weeks,two people in my MICRO and found the experience
      > most enjoyable.Mind you,crew selection was crucial to this stated
      > enjoyment!
      > Finally,as you have already completed a similarly sized plywood
      > boat,the MICRO may provide enough of a building challenge to keep
      it
      > interesting for you without being too daunting a project and taxing
      > your resources.Do not be fooled by the fact that she is the cutest
      > little"Bolger Box" around....she is nevertheless a real sailing
      > machine!!!!!
      > Sincerely,
      > Peter Lenihan,listening to the snow squeek as the thermometer dips
      > bellow -21 Celsius and the winds of 33 kms/hr give a toasty chill
      > factor of -44 Celsius which is awefully nice for my friends to the
      > south of me since it is virtually the same in Fahrenheit,on the
      > steamy banks of the St.Lawrence......
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In bolger@egroups.com, bill@p... wrote:
      > > I need some advice, folks. I'd like to build a Bolger boat that
      > will
      > > allow me to safely cruise the Great Lakes. (If you're not
      familiar
      > > with the Great Lakes, they can be as rough as the ocean.) I'm
      > > looking for something that's trailerable, self-righting, self-
      > > bailing, and can be singlehanded if need be.
      > >
      > > My carpentry skills are basic. I'm just finishing up a Weekender
      > by
      > > Stevenson Projects.
      > >
      > > What would you recommend?
      > >
      > > Bill Paxton
    • ellengaest@boatbuilding.com
      Bill Paxton, Many years ago(15?!)after having built a Bolger SURF,I found myself wanting to build another boat.At that time,there appeared within the pages of
      Message 2 of 19 , Jan 2, 2001
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        Bill Paxton,
        Many years ago(15?!)after having built a Bolger SURF,I found
        myself wanting to build another boat.At that time,there appeared
        within the pages of Small Boat Journal(R.I.P.) a nifty article about
        a
        canoe-yawl named Elver.This Steve Redmond design had me all fired up
        and ready to build again between other projects.Very shortly after
        having purchased the Elver plans and ordering some lumber,there
        appeared this tiny ad for the Micro.Not knowing when to leave well
        enough alone,I ordered the study plans from Elrow Larowe.This was
        both
        a blessing and a curse for I at once became somewhat smitten with the
        Micro while my resources were being invested elsewhere.
        Throughout the ensuing years of building and then sailing the
        Elver,my dreams were haunted by happy visions of the Micro.Finally,it
        happened.I awoke one night from the most vivid dream of actually
        sailing the Micro.Without having built her,I now"knew"exactly how she
        would feel underway and I was most pleased.Within a month,the plans
        were ordered,the plywood all purchased and the Elver put up for sale.
        The rest of the story is rather predictable;boy launches
        Micro,boy has summer of ecstasy,boy hauls boat at end of season,boy
        has winter of despair and fevered dreams,boy launches Micro again in
        spring,boy has summer of ecstasy.....
        I do recall seeing the Long Micro advertised during this time
        but for reasons that escape me now,she just never inspired me.The
        lines,curves and shape of the Micro all conspire to create the
        illusion of perfect balance and harmony.She can look forlorn as one
        leaves her at the end of the day at her quay,or as happy as a puppy
        when one arrives for a days sailing.When the wind and waves pipe up
        a bit,she appears as a pugnacious little pup defending her
        turf.Yet,within the crowded confines of a lock chamber,surrounded by
        distant cousins,she is proud and perky!However,give her a gentle
        breeze out of the southwest and she becomes a princess,gliding
        gracefully over sun dappled waves as she carries you to new
        adventures!
        Sorry about the long response to what shoulda,coulda been a
        yes
        or no reply but I am under the spell.......Besides,the psychology
        types might have a field day analyzing that last paragraph!!
        By the way,two weeks on a Micro with the right crew is a piece
        of cake and you usually end up taking off more then just your hat!

        Sincerely,
        Peter Lenihan,straining away to fight off the fever while gaining
        about a pound per day due to some awfully fine home-cooking from the
        shore bound crew,on the banks of the frozen St.Lawrence........





        e.ger@egroups.com, bill@p... wrote:
        > Peter,
        >
        > Thanks for the Micro endorsement. Two weeks on a Micro?! My hat
        is
        > off to you.
        >
        > Did you ever wish you had built the Long Micro?
        >
        > Bill Paxton
        > Frozen in the ice of Minnesota's Twin Cities.
        >
        > --- In bolger@egroups.com, ellengaest@b... wrote:
        > > Bill Paxton,
        > > In a word and with barely constrained enthusiasm,I would
        > > recommend the MICRO.
        > > Virtually any boat that is built well can cruise the Great
        > > Lakes.It all depends on the operational definition of what you
        mean
        > > by"cruise".For some,nothing short of the Q.E. II will do while
        for
        > > others a canoe with camping gear is the ultimate
        trip.Furthermore,I
        > > believe safety is more a function of crew ability/experience then
        > any
        > > particular aspect of a boat.As you stated,the Great Lakes can be
        > > extremely rough and its' history is peppered with all sorts of
        > > maritime disasters both large and small.
        > > As your query appears to suggest that your cruising may be
        > > undertaken alone,the MICRO has ample room for you and your gear.I
        > > have gone two weeks,two people in my MICRO and found the
        experience
        > > most enjoyable.Mind you,crew selection was crucial to this stated
        > > enjoyment!
        > > Finally,as you have already completed a similarly sized
        plywood
        > > boat,the MICRO may provide enough of a building challenge to keep
        > it
        > > interesting for you without being too daunting a project and
        taxing
        > > your resources.Do not be fooled by the fact that she is the
        cutest
        > > little"Bolger Box" around....she is nevertheless a real sailing
        > > machine!!!!!
        > > Sincerely,
        > > Peter Lenihan,listening to the snow squeek as the thermometer
        dips
        > > bellow -21 Celsius and the winds of 33 kms/hr give a toasty chill
        > > factor of -44 Celsius which is awefully nice for my friends to
        the
        > > south of me since it is virtually the same in Fahrenheit,on the
        > > steamy banks of the St.Lawrence......
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In bolger@egroups.com, bill@p... wrote:
        > > > I need some advice, folks. I'd like to build a Bolger boat
        that
        > > will
        > > > allow me to safely cruise the Great Lakes. (If you're not
        > familiar
        > > > with the Great Lakes, they can be as rough as the ocean.) I'm
        > > > looking for something that's trailerable, self-righting, self-
        > > > bailing, and can be singlehanded if need be.
        > > >
        > > > My carpentry skills are basic. I'm just finishing up a
        Weekender
        > > by
        > > > Stevenson Projects.
        > > >
        > > > What would you recommend?
        > > >
        > > > Bill Paxton
      • Stan Muller
        Hi All, It has been my suspicion, right along, that us Micro builders/owners were, lets for the sake of diplomacy say, different. (read a little nuts) We don t
        Message 3 of 19 , Jan 2, 2001
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          Hi All,
          It has been my suspicion, right along, that us Micro builders/owners
          were, lets for the sake of diplomacy say, different. (read a little
          nuts) We don't just march to a different drummer, we have a whole brass
          band going on. As well as, all those little voices in our heads that
          keep saying MICRO, Micro, micro, microooo.....
          We are to say the least, dedicated to our dreams. Having read Peter's
          posting, and on the behalf of the Micro infected among us, I hereby
          nominate, Peter Lenihan, as KING of the Micro people. ;-)
          Stan, Snow Goose

          PS; I didn't want to write this, but the Snow Goose made me do it.
        • ellengaest@boatbuilding.com
          Dear Stan, It is with heavy heart and swollen head that I must demur from your kind and generous nomination,prefering instead the role of court jester and
          Message 4 of 19 , Jan 3, 2001
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            Dear Stan,
            It is with heavy heart and swollen head that I must demur from
            your kind and generous nomination,prefering instead the role of court
            jester and official food and wine taster.The first,being for
            entertainment purposes,is most fitting since our boats are really big
            toys that allow us some serious play-time in this all too serious
            world and the second,well.....a well fed sailor is a happy sailor and
            a really good meal deserves to be caressed and carried ever so gently
            down through the alimentary canal on the driest,earthiest red wine
            available!At least that is how I enjoy my meals,except perhaps
            breakfast,most of the time.
            I think Chuck Merrell hit it right on the head when he wrote
            that the Micro was the boat for 99% of the people....or was it 99% of
            the people for the boat...(my this IS good wine!)...no,most people
            younger 99 prefer the Micro...(Waiter!)...whatever,he was/is quite
            correct in his observation.
            Too bad I do not live in a more centrally located area where the
            water never freezes.Then I could use my Micro to offer sailboat rides
            to all our undecided Bolgerites and other wayward members of the
            flock so that they too may experience and know what true bliss is all
            about!If the sailing doesn't get'em the wine sure will!!!!
            Sincerely,
            Peter Lenihan,wondering how it is possible to gain a pound a day
            throughout the holidays yet damned near impossible to lose it at the
            same rate,marinating his dental fillings in some mighty fine
            Port,here on the banks of the St.Lawrence.........


            --- In bolger@egroups.com, Stan Muller <smuller@i...> wrote:
            > Hi All,
            > It has been my suspicion, right along, that us Micro
            builders/owners
            > were, lets for the sake of diplomacy say, different. (read a little
            > nuts) We don't just march to a different drummer, we have a whole
            brass
            > band going on. As well as, all those little voices in our heads that
            > keep saying MICRO, Micro, micro, microooo.....
            > We are to say the least, dedicated to our dreams. Having read
            Peter's
            > posting, and on the behalf of the Micro infected among us, I hereby
            > nominate, Peter Lenihan, as KING of the Micro people. ;-)
            > Stan, Snow Goose
            >
            > PS; I didn't want to write this, but the Snow Goose made me do it.
          • Jim Chamberlin RCSIS
            ok, Peter, if you won t accept the monarchy, how about Poet Laureate? Jim C
            Message 5 of 19 , Jan 4, 2001
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              ok, Peter, if you won't accept the monarchy, how about Poet Laureate?
              Jim C

              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: ellengaest@... [mailto:ellengaest@...]
              > Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 11:18 PM
              > To: bolger@egroups.com
              > Subject: [bolger] Re: Great Lake Cruiser
              >
              >
              > Dear Stan,
              > It is with heavy heart and swollen head that I must demur from
              > your kind and generous nomination,prefering instead the role of court
              > jester and official food and wine taster.The first,being for
              > entertainment purposes,is most fitting since our boats are really big
              > toys that allow us some serious play-time in this all too serious
              > world and the second,well.....a well fed sailor is a happy sailor and
              > a really good meal deserves to be caressed and carried ever so gently
              > down through the alimentary canal on the driest,earthiest red wine
              > available!At least that is how I enjoy my meals,except perhaps
              > breakfast,most of the time.
              > I think Chuck Merrell hit it right on the head when he wrote
              > that the Micro was the boat for 99% of the people....or was it 99% of
              > the people for the boat...(my this IS good wine!)...no,most people
              > younger 99 prefer the Micro...(Waiter!)...whatever,he was/is quite
              > correct in his observation.
              > Too bad I do not live in a more centrally located area where the
              > water never freezes.Then I could use my Micro to offer sailboat rides
              > to all our undecided Bolgerites and other wayward members of the
              > flock so that they too may experience and know what true bliss is all
              > about!If the sailing doesn't get'em the wine sure will!!!!
              > Sincerely,
              > Peter Lenihan,wondering how it is possible to gain a pound a day
              > throughout the holidays yet damned near impossible to lose it at the
              > same rate,marinating his dental fillings in some mighty fine
              > Port,here on the banks of the St.Lawrence.........
              >
              >
              > --- In bolger@egroups.com, Stan Muller <smuller@i...> wrote:
              > > Hi All,
              > > It has been my suspicion, right along, that us Micro
              > builders/owners
              > > were, lets for the sake of diplomacy say, different. (read a little
              > > nuts) We don't just march to a different drummer, we have a whole
              > brass
              > > band going on. As well as, all those little voices in our heads that
              > > keep saying MICRO, Micro, micro, microooo.....
              > > We are to say the least, dedicated to our dreams. Having read
              > Peter's
              > > posting, and on the behalf of the Micro infected among us, I hereby
              > > nominate, Peter Lenihan, as KING of the Micro people. ;-)
              > > Stan, Snow Goose
              > >
              > > PS; I didn't want to write this, but the Snow Goose made me do it.
              >
              >
              > Bolger rules!!!
              > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
              > - no flogging dead horses
              > - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
              > - stay on topic and punctuate
              > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
              >
              >
            • Stan Muller
              Jim C., I second the nomination! ... Peter certainly is the most articulate Micro- maniac amongst us. When ever I show one of his postings to my wife Pat, she
              Message 6 of 19 , Jan 4, 2001
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                Jim C.,
                I second the nomination!
                > ok, Peter, if you won't accept the monarchy, how about Poet Laureate?
                > Jim C

                Peter certainly is the most articulate Micro- maniac amongst us. When
                ever I show
                one of his postings to my wife Pat, she always wants me to ask him, what
                books he has written , and has he been published? Poet Laureate, it is!

                Hi, My name is Stan, and I am a Microholic. "Hi Stan"...... Oh no, it's
                all those little voices again. ;-)

                Stan, where the temp. is all the way up to 36 F. so it is time to go out
                and work on the old Snow Goose.
              • John
                Peter, Let me preface by saying I am a complete novice, and I am really just day dreaming/obsessing about the Elver. It just looks beautiful to me. I also see
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 29, 2003
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                  Peter,

                  Let me preface by saying I am a complete novice, and I am really just
                  day dreaming/obsessing about the Elver. It just looks beautiful to
                  me. I also see that you love your Micro. With that in mind, I have a
                  couple of questions about Steve Redmond's "Elver" vs Bolger's Micro.

                  In you experience, How do you think the strip planked hull compares
                  to the Micro Ply hull with regards to durability, Rot resistance?
                  It looks time consuming for sure.

                  More specifically with a boat that will live outdoors with some type
                  of a tarp garage shelter, do you think the plywood or the strip
                  planked will handle the freeze that cycle better.
                  Along that line, for the Elver, I am considering using Weldwood
                  Plastic Resin Glue between the planks with small nails(What type?).
                  I might then glass the exterior below the waterline. With the Elver I
                  guess I would try to find some pine 2 X 8's to rip as hardwood is not
                  recommended. What wood did you use?

                  The Micro has 400 lbs of lead in the keel, what ballast does the
                  Elver have?
                  Would it be kind of crazy/unnecessary to put a heavier swing keel in
                  the Elver?

                  Is the Elver all that much roomier inside for 2 people?

                  I gather from your comments you prefer to sail the Micro So I guess
                  it is your recommendation.

                  I suspect the Micro it is easier on the budget, easier to trailer,
                  and easier to build.

                  Thank you for all of your contributions.
                  John Paquette


                  >From: ellengaest@b...
                  >Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 9:10 am
                  >Subject: Re: Great Lake Cruiser
                  >
                  >Bill Paxton,
                  >Many years ago(15?!)after having built a Bolger SURF,I found
                  >myself wanting to build another boat.At that time,there appeared
                  >within the pages of Small Boat Journal(R.I.P.) a nifty article about
                  a
                  >canoe-yawl named Elver.This Steve Redmond design had me all fired up
                  >and ready to build again between other projects.Very shortly after
                  >having purchased the Elver plans and ordering some lumber,there
                  >appeared this tiny ad for the Micro.Not knowing when to leave well
                  >enough alone,I ordered the study plans from Elrow Larowe.This was
                  >both a blessing and a curse for I at once became somewhat smitten
                  with the
                  >Micro while my resources were being invested elsewhere.
                  >Throughout the ensuing years of building and then sailing the
                  >Elver,my dreams were haunted by happy visions of the Micro.Finally,it
                  >happened.I awoke one night from the most vivid dream of actually
                  >sailing the Micro.Without having built her,I now"knew"exactly how she
                  >would feel underway and I was most pleased.Within a month,the plans
                  >were ordered,the plywood all purchased and the Elver put up for sale.
                  >The rest of the story is rather predictable;boy launches
                  >Micro,boy has summer of ecstasy,boy hauls boat at end of season,boy
                  >has winter of despair and fevered dreams,boy launches Micro again in
                  >spring,boy has summer of ecstasy.....
                  >I do recall seeing the Long Micro advertised during this time
                  >but for reasons that escape me now,she just never inspired me.The
                  >lines,curves and shape of the Micro all conspire to create the
                  >illusion of perfect balance and harmony.She can look forlorn as one
                  >leaves her at the end of the day at her quay,or as happy as a puppy
                  >when one arrives for a days sailing.When the wind and waves pipe up
                  >a bit,she appears as a pugnacious little pup defending her
                  >turf.Yet,within the crowded confines of a lock chamber,surrounded by
                  >distant cousins,she is proud and perky!However,give her a gentle
                  >breeze out of the southwest and she becomes a princess,gliding
                  >gracefully over sun dappled waves as she carries you to new
                  >adventures!
                  >Sorry about the long response to what shoulda,coulda been a yes
                  >or no reply but I am under the spell.......Besides,the psychology
                  >types might have a field day analyzing that last paragraph!!
                  >By the way,two weeks on a Micro with the right crew is a piece
                  >of cake and you usually end up taking off more then just your hat!
                  >
                  >Sincerely,
                  >Peter Lenihan,straining away to fight off the fever while gaining
                  >about a pound per day due to some awfully fine home-cooking from the
                  >shore bound crew,on the banks of the frozen St.Lawrence........
                • Nels
                  Hi John, Are you aware that there is a website dedicated to Elver? Not trying to send you away but there is a lot of information there.
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 29, 2003
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                    Hi John,

                    Are you aware that there is a website dedicated to Elver? Not trying
                    to send you away but there is a lot of information there.

                    http://www.sredmond.com/elver.htm

                    And here is the description from that site:

                    "Elver is a light weight 20 foot long open canoe yawl with a cuddy,
                    designed for low cost and simplicity of construction. She is
                    trailerable."

                    The operative word here "open" describes the major difference between
                    Elver and MICRO. Although both boats are designed mostly for
                    sheltered waters, MICRO has a far larger range of capability - being
                    able to recover from a knock down from 90 degrees or more without
                    flooding. Not sure if this can be said for Elver as I am not aware
                    that the cockpit is self-draining or it is fully self-righting if
                    capsized. I know which one I would much rather be in if the weather
                    got really bad.

                    My first contact with Peter was to ask about Elver - as I have the
                    plans. I ended up buying his MICRO instead:-)

                    There is no doubt that Elver has a lot going for it if you are only
                    interested in sailing in sheltered waters. And she looks gorgeous. If
                    you want plans I have a set somewhere around here.

                    The only permanant ballest is in the centerboard and one could add to
                    the bottom plywood thickness to create more. Also there is no
                    provision for a motor.

                    Cheers, Nels


                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johnpaquette@h...> wrote:
                    > Peter,
                    >
                    > Let me preface by saying I am a complete novice, and I am really
                    just
                    > day dreaming/obsessing about the Elver. It just looks beautiful to
                    > me. I also see that you love your Micro. With that in mind, I have
                    a
                    > couple of questions about Steve Redmond's "Elver" vs Bolger's Micro.
                    >
                    > In you experience, How do you think the strip planked hull compares
                    > to the Micro Ply hull with regards to durability, Rot resistance?
                    > It looks time consuming for sure.
                    >
                    > More specifically with a boat that will live outdoors with some
                    type
                    > of a tarp garage shelter, do you think the plywood or the strip
                    > planked will handle the freeze that cycle better.
                    > Along that line, for the Elver, I am considering using Weldwood
                    > Plastic Resin Glue between the planks with small nails(What type?).
                    > I might then glass the exterior below the waterline. With the Elver
                    I
                    > guess I would try to find some pine 2 X 8's to rip as hardwood is
                    not
                    > recommended. What wood did you use?
                    >
                    > The Micro has 400 lbs of lead in the keel, what ballast does the
                    > Elver have?
                    > Would it be kind of crazy/unnecessary to put a heavier swing keel
                    in
                    > the Elver?
                    >
                    > Is the Elver all that much roomier inside for 2 people?
                    >
                    > I gather from your comments you prefer to sail the Micro So I guess
                    > it is your recommendation.
                    >
                    > I suspect the Micro it is easier on the budget, easier to trailer,
                    > and easier to build.
                    >
                    > Thank you for all of your contributions.
                    > John Paquette
                    >
                    >
                    > >From: ellengaest@b...
                    > >Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 9:10 am
                    > >Subject: Re: Great Lake Cruiser
                    > >
                    > >Bill Paxton,
                    > >Many years ago(15?!)after having built a Bolger SURF,I found
                    > >myself wanting to build another boat.At that time,there appeared
                    > >within the pages of Small Boat Journal(R.I.P.) a nifty article
                    about
                    > a
                    > >canoe-yawl named Elver.This Steve Redmond design had me all fired
                    up
                    > >and ready to build again between other projects.Very shortly after
                    > >having purchased the Elver plans and ordering some lumber,there
                    > >appeared this tiny ad for the Micro.Not knowing when to leave well
                    > >enough alone,I ordered the study plans from Elrow Larowe.This was
                    > >both a blessing and a curse for I at once became somewhat smitten
                    > with the
                    > >Micro while my resources were being invested elsewhere.
                    > >Throughout the ensuing years of building and then sailing the
                    > >Elver,my dreams were haunted by happy visions of the
                    Micro.Finally,it
                    > >happened.I awoke one night from the most vivid dream of actually
                    > >sailing the Micro.Without having built her,I now"knew"exactly how
                    she
                    > >would feel underway and I was most pleased.Within a month,the plans
                    > >were ordered,the plywood all purchased and the Elver put up for
                    sale.
                    > >The rest of the story is rather predictable;boy launches
                    > >Micro,boy has summer of ecstasy,boy hauls boat at end of season,boy
                    > >has winter of despair and fevered dreams,boy launches Micro again
                    in
                    > >spring,boy has summer of ecstasy.....
                    > >I do recall seeing the Long Micro advertised during this time
                    > >but for reasons that escape me now,she just never inspired me.The
                    > >lines,curves and shape of the Micro all conspire to create the
                    > >illusion of perfect balance and harmony.She can look forlorn as one
                    > >leaves her at the end of the day at her quay,or as happy as a puppy
                    > >when one arrives for a days sailing.When the wind and waves pipe up
                    > >a bit,she appears as a pugnacious little pup defending her
                    > >turf.Yet,within the crowded confines of a lock chamber,surrounded
                    by
                    > >distant cousins,she is proud and perky!However,give her a gentle
                    > >breeze out of the southwest and she becomes a princess,gliding
                    > >gracefully over sun dappled waves as she carries you to new
                    > >adventures!
                    > >Sorry about the long response to what shoulda,coulda been a yes
                    > >or no reply but I am under the spell.......Besides,the psychology
                    > >types might have a field day analyzing that last paragraph!!
                    > >By the way,two weeks on a Micro with the right crew is a piece
                    > >of cake and you usually end up taking off more then just your hat!
                    > >
                    > >Sincerely,
                    > >Peter Lenihan,straining away to fight off the fever while gaining
                    > >about a pound per day due to some awfully fine home-cooking from
                    the
                    > >shore bound crew,on the banks of the frozen St.Lawrence........
                  • pvanderwaart
                    If you are considering the Micro and Elver, you might also look at John Welsford s Tread Lightly. It s a little smaller than Micro, but I understand that a
                    Message 9 of 19 , Nov 29, 2003
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                      If you are considering the Micro and Elver, you might also look at
                      John Welsford's Tread Lightly. It's a little smaller than Micro, but
                      I understand that a somewhat larger version is in the planning stages
                      and should be a completed design in six months or so.

                      http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/jw/treadlightly/index.htm

                      Peter
                    • Zack Tiger
                      Hello John. Your letter raises a few questions and concerns that I hope I can help with. The two boats in question are, really, at opposite ends of the
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 9, 2003
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                        Hello John.
                        Your letter raises a few questions and concerns that I
                        hope I can help with.
                        The two boats in question are, really, at opposite
                        ends of the spectrum of sailing craft. The Elver, a
                        canoe yawl, is very traditional in looks and
                        construction. A purist might insist she be carvel
                        planked, or even clinker planked, but strip planking
                        is really a form of carvel planking that does away
                        with spiling, edge bevelling, and all of the other
                        more difficult aspects of traditional boat building.
                        It is, without question, very easy on the eye, and it
                        looks........well, it just looks right. To me, the
                        Elver is the ideal boat for someone who places a high
                        priority on tradition, maritime heritage, and wants
                        that "classic" look.
                        The Micro, on the other hand, is an exercise in free
                        thinking and practicality where traditional form was
                        put aside, or made subservient to the design goals.
                        Yet, it is arguably aethetically pleasing, in a
                        form-follows-function kind of way.
                        If looks are more important, you may tend to lean
                        towards the Elver, but in order to be satisfied, you
                        have to examine the uses, frequency of use, number of
                        competent sailors, storage etc. to make a sound
                        decision.
                        I have built about 12 small craft, using stitch and
                        glue ply, strip planking, cold moulding as well as
                        more traditional methods, and all of them are good
                        methods, providing the builder uses only the best
                        quality materials available, and sound construction
                        techniques. Most of my boats have to winter outside in
                        the cold snowy Canadian weather, and proper storage is
                        crucial if you expect to have any kind of life for
                        your boat. It must be well covered to keep out snow
                        and prevent ice damage, yet must be well ventilated to
                        prevent moisture. Any deficiencies in your epoxy
                        layups and covering will eventually provide a failure
                        path.
                        In that regard, please do not consider using pine
                        planking! By pine, I assume you mean Northern White
                        Pine,and not Longleaf Yellow Pine(which is rare to the
                        point of unavailable around here). White pine does not
                        possess the tensile strength to withstand puncture
                        impacts unless the plank thickness is quite heavy, it
                        has poor rot resistance, and is only moderately good
                        at holding fasteners. If real clear close grained pine
                        is sought, it still is not much cheaper than better
                        boat building woods. If it were me, I would strip
                        plank in cedar. Buy the wood rough, dress and plane it
                        your self (good Christmas gift, that 15" planer!!) and
                        set up two routers to cut the bead and cove edging in
                        one pass. A single Saturday and several cold
                        refreshments, and you will have all the planking
                        material you need. I buy my Western Red Cedar from a
                        sawmill as rough dressed 5/4 stock and paneit to 3/4"
                        myself, for about half the cost of dressed lumber.
                        Sounds like a lotof wastage, but it takes a few 1/8"
                        passes justto get a true surface and remove saw kerf
                        marks.
                        Also,please no not use the Weldwood glue. It is a good
                        product, and cheaper than epoxy, but the cost expoy is
                        mostly in the wetting out and covering with glass. For
                        the small amount used in the planking seams, it just
                        isnt worth the compromise. Epoxy will also give you
                        more working time than the Weldwood, as once the
                        Weldwood "skins" bond strength suffers greatly.
                        I have heard of edge nailing the strips, but I find
                        that staples (or clamps in the case of "stapleless
                        construction" hold the planks well until the epoxy
                        sets. The only exceptions would be the head ends at
                        the stem and sternpost, the planks at the turn of the
                        bilge, and perhaps where the strips have to be really
                        tortured to take to the building form.

                        I have gone on long enough, but I would gently suggest
                        you give great thopughtto the uses to which you will
                        put your boat, make the decision that feels right,
                        then build her the best you can. Pennies saved at the
                        expense of safety, durabilty or longevityare false
                        economy.

                        Thanks, Shawn
                        --- John <johnpaquette@...> wrote:
                        > Peter,
                        >
                        > Let me preface by saying I am a complete novice, and
                        > I am really just
                        > day dreaming/obsessing about the Elver. It just
                        > looks beautiful to
                        > me. I also see that you love your Micro. With that
                        > in mind, I have a
                        > couple of questions about Steve Redmond's "Elver" vs
                        > Bolger's Micro.
                        >
                        > In you experience, How do you think the strip
                        > planked hull compares
                        > to the Micro Ply hull with regards to durability,
                        > Rot resistance?
                        > It looks time consuming for sure.
                        >
                        > More specifically with a boat that will live
                        > outdoors with some type
                        > of a tarp garage shelter, do you think the plywood
                        > or the strip
                        > planked will handle the freeze that cycle better.
                        > Along that line, for the Elver, I am considering
                        > using Weldwood
                        > Plastic Resin Glue between the planks with small
                        > nails(What type?).
                        > I might then glass the exterior below the waterline.
                        > With the Elver I
                        > guess I would try to find some pine 2 X 8's to rip
                        > as hardwood is not
                        > recommended. What wood did you use?
                        >
                        > The Micro has 400 lbs of lead in the keel, what
                        > ballast does the
                        > Elver have?
                        > Would it be kind of crazy/unnecessary to put a
                        > heavier swing keel in
                        > the Elver?
                        >
                        > Is the Elver all that much roomier inside for 2
                        > people?
                        >
                        > I gather from your comments you prefer to sail the
                        > Micro So I guess
                        > it is your recommendation.
                        >
                        > I suspect the Micro it is easier on the budget,
                        > easier to trailer,
                        > and easier to build.
                        >
                        > Thank you for all of your contributions.
                        > John Paquette
                        >
                        >
                        > >From: ellengaest@b...
                        > >Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 9:10 am
                        > >Subject: Re: Great Lake Cruiser
                        > >
                        > >Bill Paxton,
                        > >Many years ago(15?!)after having built a Bolger
                        > SURF,I found
                        > >myself wanting to build another boat.At that
                        > time,there appeared
                        > >within the pages of Small Boat Journal(R.I.P.) a
                        > nifty article about
                        > a
                        > >canoe-yawl named Elver.This Steve Redmond design
                        > had me all fired up
                        > >and ready to build again between other
                        > projects.Very shortly after
                        > >having purchased the Elver plans and ordering some
                        > lumber,there
                        > >appeared this tiny ad for the Micro.Not knowing
                        > when to leave well
                        > >enough alone,I ordered the study plans from Elrow
                        > Larowe.This was
                        > >both a blessing and a curse for I at once became
                        > somewhat smitten
                        > with the
                        > >Micro while my resources were being invested
                        > elsewhere.
                        > >Throughout the ensuing years of building and then
                        > sailing the
                        > >Elver,my dreams were haunted by happy visions of
                        > the Micro.Finally,it
                        > >happened.I awoke one night from the most vivid
                        > dream of actually
                        > >sailing the Micro.Without having built her,I
                        > now"knew"exactly how she
                        > >would feel underway and I was most pleased.Within a
                        > month,the plans
                        > >were ordered,the plywood all purchased and the
                        > Elver put up for sale.
                        > >The rest of the story is rather predictable;boy
                        > launches
                        > >Micro,boy has summer of ecstasy,boy hauls boat at
                        > end of season,boy
                        > >has winter of despair and fevered dreams,boy
                        > launches Micro again in
                        > >spring,boy has summer of ecstasy.....
                        > >I do recall seeing the Long Micro advertised during
                        > this time
                        > >but for reasons that escape me now,she just never
                        > inspired me.The
                        > >lines,curves and shape of the Micro all conspire to
                        > create the
                        > >illusion of perfect balance and harmony.She can
                        > look forlorn as one
                        > >leaves her at the end of the day at her quay,or as
                        > happy as a puppy
                        > >when one arrives for a days sailing.When the wind
                        > and waves pipe up
                        > >a bit,she appears as a pugnacious little pup
                        > defending her
                        > >turf.Yet,within the crowded confines of a lock
                        > chamber,surrounded by
                        > >distant cousins,she is proud and perky!However,give
                        > her a gentle
                        > >breeze out of the southwest and she becomes a
                        > princess,gliding
                        > >gracefully over sun dappled waves as she carries
                        > you to new
                        > >adventures!
                        > >Sorry about the long response to what
                        > shoulda,coulda been a yes
                        > >or no reply but I am under the
                        > spell.......Besides,the psychology
                        > >types might have a field day analyzing that last
                        > paragraph!!
                        > >By the way,two weeks on a Micro with the right crew
                        > is a piece
                        > >of cake and you usually end up taking off more then
                        > just your hat!
                        > >
                        > >Sincerely,
                        > >Peter Lenihan,straining away to fight off the fever
                        > while gaining
                        > >about a pound per day due to some awfully fine
                        > home-cooking from the
                        > >shore bound crew,on the banks of the frozen
                        > St.Lawrence........
                        >
                        >
                        >


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                      • Zack Tiger
                        Hi John. the Ole Windbag here again! I will be succinct here.... The Micro, from a novice builder point of view, would in probability be better suited. the
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 9, 2003
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                          Hi John. the Ole Windbag here again!
                          I will be succinct here....
                          The Micro, from a novice builder point of view, would
                          in probability be better suited. the materials are
                          familiar, no special skill set is required, and it
                          isone VERY ruggedly built little boat. As Nels has
                          said, the covered cabin may bethe extra safety margin
                          you need if youare sailing on the Great Lakes, where
                          weather can change fast and dramatically. Also, you
                          have a advantage in that the Micro is design for a
                          well-mounted outboard. Just read the traffic in the
                          last few days re: motors in canoe-sterned boats.
                          Here are some excellent web sites and links about
                          Micros, and other PCB designs, some of which show the
                          whole construction process start to finish. Of
                          particular note are the Navigator modifications and
                          the stem changes, both of which would be very good to
                          have when it blows up bad. I think I will build a
                          Micro this summer,and I will incorporate theses mods.
                          Have fun!
                          http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/sites2.htm
                          http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/
                          http://www.pentode.demon.co.uk/bolger/index.htm
                          http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/articles/oink2/index.htm

                          --- Nels <arvent@...> wrote:
                          > Hi John,
                          >
                          > Are you aware that there is a website dedicated to
                          > Elver? Not trying
                          > to send you away but there is a lot of information
                          > there.
                          >
                          > http://www.sredmond.com/elver.htm
                          >
                          > And here is the description from that site:
                          >
                          > "Elver is a light weight 20 foot long open canoe
                          > yawl with a cuddy,
                          > designed for low cost and simplicity of
                          > construction. She is
                          > trailerable."
                          >
                          > The operative word here "open" describes the major
                          > difference between
                          > Elver and MICRO. Although both boats are designed
                          > mostly for
                          > sheltered waters, MICRO has a far larger range of
                          > capability - being
                          > able to recover from a knock down from 90 degrees or
                          > more without
                          > flooding. Not sure if this can be said for Elver as
                          > I am not aware
                          > that the cockpit is self-draining or it is fully
                          > self-righting if
                          > capsized. I know which one I would much rather be in
                          > if the weather
                          > got really bad.
                          >
                          > My first contact with Peter was to ask about Elver -
                          > as I have the
                          > plans. I ended up buying his MICRO instead:-)
                          >
                          > There is no doubt that Elver has a lot going for it
                          > if you are only
                          > interested in sailing in sheltered waters. And she
                          > looks gorgeous. If
                          > you want plans I have a set somewhere around here.
                          >
                          > The only permanant ballest is in the centerboard and
                          > one could add to
                          > the bottom plywood thickness to create more. Also
                          > there is no
                          > provision for a motor.
                          >
                          > Cheers, Nels
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John"
                          > <johnpaquette@h...> wrote:
                          > > Peter,
                          > >
                          > > Let me preface by saying I am a complete novice,
                          > and I am really
                          > just
                          > > day dreaming/obsessing about the Elver. It just
                          > looks beautiful to
                          > > me. I also see that you love your Micro. With that
                          > in mind, I have
                          > a
                          > > couple of questions about Steve Redmond's "Elver"
                          > vs Bolger's Micro.
                          > >
                          > > In you experience, How do you think the strip
                          > planked hull compares
                          > > to the Micro Ply hull with regards to durability,
                          > Rot resistance?
                          > > It looks time consuming for sure.
                          > >
                          > > More specifically with a boat that will live
                          > outdoors with some
                          > type
                          > > of a tarp garage shelter, do you think the plywood
                          > or the strip
                          > > planked will handle the freeze that cycle better.
                          > > Along that line, for the Elver, I am considering
                          > using Weldwood
                          > > Plastic Resin Glue between the planks with small
                          > nails(What type?).
                          > > I might then glass the exterior below the
                          > waterline. With the Elver
                          > I
                          > > guess I would try to find some pine 2 X 8's to rip
                          > as hardwood is
                          > not
                          > > recommended. What wood did you use?
                          > >
                          > > The Micro has 400 lbs of lead in the keel, what
                          > ballast does the
                          > > Elver have?
                          > > Would it be kind of crazy/unnecessary to put a
                          > heavier swing keel
                          > in
                          > > the Elver?
                          > >
                          > > Is the Elver all that much roomier inside for 2
                          > people?
                          > >
                          > > I gather from your comments you prefer to sail the
                          > Micro So I guess
                          > > it is your recommendation.
                          > >
                          > > I suspect the Micro it is easier on the budget,
                          > easier to trailer,
                          > > and easier to build.
                          > >
                          > > Thank you for all of your contributions.
                          > > John Paquette
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > >From: ellengaest@b...
                          > > >Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 9:10 am
                          > > >Subject: Re: Great Lake Cruiser
                          > > >
                          > > >Bill Paxton,
                          > > >Many years ago(15?!)after having built a Bolger
                          > SURF,I found
                          > > >myself wanting to build another boat.At that
                          > time,there appeared
                          > > >within the pages of Small Boat Journal(R.I.P.) a
                          > nifty article
                          > about
                          > > a
                          > > >canoe-yawl named Elver.This Steve Redmond design
                          > had me all fired
                          > up
                          > > >and ready to build again between other
                          > projects.Very shortly after
                          > > >having purchased the Elver plans and ordering
                          > some lumber,there
                          > > >appeared this tiny ad for the Micro.Not knowing
                          > when to leave well
                          > > >enough alone,I ordered the study plans from Elrow
                          > Larowe.This was
                          > > >both a blessing and a curse for I at once became
                          > somewhat smitten
                          > > with the
                          > > >Micro while my resources were being invested
                          > elsewhere.
                          > > >Throughout the ensuing years of building and then
                          > sailing the
                          > > >Elver,my dreams were haunted by happy visions of
                          > the
                          > Micro.Finally,it
                          > > >happened.I awoke one night from the most vivid
                          > dream of actually
                          > > >sailing the Micro.Without having built her,I
                          > now"knew"exactly how
                          > she
                          > > >would feel underway and I was most pleased.Within
                          > a month,the plans
                          > > >were ordered,the plywood all purchased and the
                          > Elver put up for
                          > sale.
                          > > >The rest of the story is rather predictable;boy
                          > launches
                          > > >Micro,boy has summer of ecstasy,boy hauls boat at
                          > end of season,boy
                          > > >has winter of despair and fevered dreams,boy
                          > launches Micro again
                          > in
                          > > >spring,boy has summer of ecstasy.....
                          > > >I do recall seeing the Long Micro advertised
                          > during this time
                          > > >but for reasons that escape me now,she just never
                          > inspired me.The
                          > > >lines,curves and shape of the Micro all conspire
                          > to create the
                          > > >illusion of perfect balance and harmony.She can
                          > look forlorn as one
                          > > >leaves her at the end of the day at her quay,or
                          > as happy as a puppy
                          > > >when one arrives for a days sailing.When the wind
                          > and waves pipe up
                          > > >a bit,she appears as a pugnacious little pup
                          > defending her
                          > > >turf.Yet,within the crowded confines of a lock
                          > chamber,surrounded
                          > by
                          > > >distant cousins,she is proud and
                          > perky!However,give her a gentle
                          > > >breeze out of the southwest and she becomes a
                          > princess,gliding
                          > > >gracefully over sun dappled waves as she carries
                          > you to new
                          > > >adventures!
                          > > >Sorry about the long response to what
                          > shoulda,coulda been a yes
                          > > >or no reply but I am under the
                          > spell.......Besides,the psychology
                          > > >types might have a field day analyzing that last
                          > paragraph!!
                          > > >By the way,two weeks on a Micro with the right
                          > crew is a piece
                          > > >of cake and you usually end up taking off more
                          > then just your hat!
                          > > >
                          >
                          === message truncated ===


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                        • Nels
                          ... Just an observation - but the third link mentioned above - is probably more of a demonstration on how NOT to build a Micro. I don t mean to dowmplay the
                          Message 12 of 19 , Dec 10, 2003
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                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Zack Tiger <zackalicious@y...> wrote:
                            > Hi John. the Ole Windbag here again!
                            > Have fun!
                            > http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/sites2.htm
                            > http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/
                            > http://www.pentode.demon.co.uk/bolger/index.htm
                            > http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/articles/oink2/index.htm
                            >
                            Just an observation - but the third link mentioned above - is
                            probably more of a demonstration on how NOT to build a Micro. I don't
                            mean to dowmplay the builders concerns, but he made it a way more
                            difficult than it has to be and I am not sure if he ever did get it
                            finished. I was curious to see how it comes out as to being close to
                            being on it's DWL.

                            One thing that is interesting is his experience when turning the
                            hull. He installed the keel with the boat inverted and had rods or
                            something in the ends so it was like it was on a spit. With several
                            friends he barely was able to hold it from turning too quickly. He
                            was amazed at the leverage of the weight of the keel.

                            I think this is something that many people tend to forget - and that
                            is the strength and effectivenss of that keel structure. In
                            comparison, Elver is an open unballested boat.

                            Also Bolger mentions that being on the Great Lakes is the same as
                            being by the ocean for all practical purposes and that includes Lake
                            Erie.

                            As mentioned previously - I have a set of Elver plans if anyone is
                            really interested.

                            Cheers, Nels
                          • Peter Lenihan
                            ... Hi John, Sorry about the delay in replying but things have been busy :-) Either boat will fair very well if built with care and good materials.The Elver
                            Message 13 of 19 , Dec 11, 2003
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                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John" <johnpaquette@h...> wrote:
                              > Peter,
                              > In you experience, How do you think the strip planked hull compares
                              > to the Micro Ply hull with regards to durability, Rot resistance?
                              > It looks time consuming for sure.

                              Hi John,
                              Sorry about the delay in replying but things have been busy :-)

                              Either boat will fair very well if built with care and good
                              materials.The Elver requires 88 3/4" square strips(44 per side) and
                              this can be time consuming compared to just "wrapping" the plywood
                              sides of the MICRO around the bulkheads.It also can introduce 88
                              chances for errors to creap in,so you have to be attentive.


                              >
                              > More specifically with a boat that will live outdoors with some
                              type
                              > of a tarp garage shelter, do you think the plywood or the strip
                              > planked will handle the freeze that cycle better.

                              Again,both will fair well if built well.Both my Elver and MICRO were
                              stored outdoors through Canadian winters and lived to tell about it:-)


                              > Along that line, for the Elver, I am considering using Weldwood
                              > Plastic Resin Glue between the planks with small nails(What type?).
                              > I might then glass the exterior below the waterline. With the Elver
                              I
                              > guess I would try to find some pine 2 X 8's to rip as hardwood is
                              not
                              > recommended. What wood did you use?


                              I would discourage the use of WPRG and favour epoxy between the
                              strips. I used 2" galvanized finishing nails on six inch centers for
                              my strips.Couldn't find those nails in Montreal and ended up ordering
                              them from Jamestown Distributors in the states.
                              I used Western Red Cedar for my strips,all vertical grain,and glassed
                              the entire outside of the hull.The interior was just coated with
                              epoxy.


                              >
                              > The Micro has 400 lbs of lead in the keel, what ballast does the
                              > Elver have?
                              > Would it be kind of crazy/unnecessary to put a heavier swing keel
                              in
                              > the Elver?


                              The Elver is essentially an unballasted day boat with a cuddy added
                              on.Be aware that any modifications you may be considering,however
                              good they may be,will NOT be sanctioned by the designer.

                              >
                              > Is the Elver all that much roomier inside for 2 people?

                              No,not really,despite its apparent size there is precious little room
                              inside.


                              >
                              > I gather from your comments you prefer to sail the Micro



                              Yes I do/did......very much so! It is not clear to me how you plan on
                              using your boat John,but you may wish to consider the following:

                              The plans for the MICRO are more detailed then those of the Elver.
                              The MICRO has a self-draining cockpit,the Elver doesn't.
                              The MICRO is fully self rescuing/righting,the Elver isn't.
                              The MICRO has free-flooding wells to handle onboard messiness like
                              anchors and gas,the Elver doesn't.
                              The MICRO has a"clean" and obvious arrangement for steering and motor
                              placement,the Elver doesn't.
                              The MICRO has an easier rig to handle,the Elver doesn't.
                              The MICRO is hard on some folks eyes,the Elver less so.

                              Now,in all fairness,I should state that I did use my Elver for over 7
                              years before selling her and that she did provide alot of
                              enjoyment.However,this enjoyment was tempered somewhat by what I came
                              to recognize as "grief zones". To wit; I found that placing the
                              outboard off a side mounted bracket very clumsy at times and plain
                              stupid at other times.With the boat heeled over on the same side as
                              the outboard,it never took much to almost bury the motor under the
                              waves. Another zone had to do with the rig. That free-flying jib is a
                              real handfull when trying to douse her in a storm and this from a
                              narrow pointy foredeck.The sequence for lowering this sail is all
                              very logical on paper but requires two pairs of hands,a third foot
                              and on eye in the back of your head for once just one of the control
                              lines is released,the wind will try to sail it right off the boat!
                              About the only practical but not cheap solution is to add a roller-
                              furler for the jib. The bigger grief zone regarding the rig is the
                              mainsail.The peak-sprit is a wonderful thing when fully
                              secured.However,this is a big stick to have to manhandle.The snotter
                              needs to be bigger then you think and the snotter line longer then
                              you think! The furling method suggested on the plans works like a
                              charm but does not address the reality of that big stick whipping
                              around up in the air.(remember,you will most likely be wanting to
                              furl this sail when the winds are just getting too strong and the
                              waves keep building).A partial solution,which I used, was to add 2
                              control lines leading from the peak of the sprit to either side of
                              the cockpit.This helped somewhat in taming the wild gyrations of the
                              peak-sprit.On the other hand,you may wish to lower the mainsail
                              completely.......this can be a chore too unless you have extra hands
                              available for that peak-sprit will have to be released from the
                              mainsail and secured to the deck while the mainsail flogs itself
                              overboard........not very nice.......
                              And if some folks find the clipity-clapity of waves under the bow of
                              the Micro annoying,they haven't lived until they've heard the
                              kerthunk-thud of the centerboard in its box while you try to sleep
                              beside it!
                              I could go on John, but I do not want to spoil your fun. The Elver is
                              certainly a beautiful looking boat and it does evoke all sorts of
                              rommantic images of genteel sailing on calm English ponds with the
                              swans paddling by. And if that is what excites you,then go for it!( I
                              know I sure did) However,when all hell is breaking loose and the
                              shore line is far away, I'll take a MICRO please :-)

                              Let us know which boat you chose to build!

                              Sincerely,

                              Peter Lenihan, entitled to his own experience based opinion and not
                              the slightest bit biased toward the MICRO.............yeah right!
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