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RE: [bolger] Re: Micro keel/Navigator rig

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  • Paul A. Lefebvre, Jr.
    Thanks, Don....... So is your baklava keel going to work out, with the epoxy syrup poured over it? I d love to pour my own keel, I m kind of a compulsive
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 1, 2000
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      Thanks, Don....... So is your 'baklava' keel going to work out, with the
      epoxy 'syrup' poured over it? I'd love to pour my own keel, I'm kind of a
      compulsive do-it-yourselfer; but I worry about the fumes, etc...... I've got
      an electrician friend who has a plumber's burner designed to melt lead, so I
      would just need to buy a lot of gas..... but it still intimates me some.
      Dave Jost posted the name of the foundry he got his Micro keel poured at,
      it's very close by, and the price wasn't too bad, so that may be the one
      aspect of my micro that I hire out..... we'll see how the winter progresses.
      At this point the whole project still only exists in my head, but I think
      once I have all these pesky 'how-to' details ironed out in my head I'll be
      diving in pretty quick.

      Peter, you did a deadwood keel, with the lead through-bolted rather than the
      hollow plywood box keel section...... I remember a long time about you
      saying something about having had to compensate for the flotation added by
      this extra wood versus the would-be free-flooding hollow keel. So your lead
      must be heavier overall to compensate for the extra flotation of the
      timbers, and wider since there isn't 1/4" of plywood sandwiched around it,
      correct? I'd be interested in knowing how you calculated the weight
      compensation, fore-aft distribution, etc. around those notches to fit the
      deadwood - would you be willing to share your alternate keel pattern, info
      on the barrier coat used, structural considerations to receive the bolts,
      etc? Whether or not I cast my own keel, I will probably want to go with the
      more stout timber keel for many of the same reasons you once mentioned in
      this forum. Also, aside from building it for its own sake, the Micro is
      practice for eventually building a much larger liveaboard boat (hopefully!
      Otherwise I'll at least have a Micro to cruise around in!) which will also
      probably have a laminated deadwood keel, so I may as well learn how on a
      much smaller scale. I've built 4 strip canoes and kayaks, so while I'm
      confident I can build a keeled plywood boat, it is still new territory for
      me. Your pictures on Duckworks are excellent, by the way! Thanks for taking
      the time to put that story together for us.

      I just ordered '103 rigs' yesterday; I understand the Micro plans now come
      with the Navigator upgrade so I'm considering the Navigator 'chinese gaff'
      sail, though I'll stick with the standard cuddy. I've long been a junkie in
      my boat fantasies and subscribe to the junk rig list as well as this one, so
      I'd like to try out that rig on the Micro with an eye toward gaining
      experience with the rig for my big dream boat. But since I plan to trailer
      my micro, this may determine which rig I ultimately use; if the gaffer looks
      too complicated to set up and take down each time, I'll go with the standard
      rig for simplicity. I know I'll go out more often if I don't have to spend
      too long at the ramp swatting mosquitoes while I rig the boat. Of course if
      the mast is shorter on the gaffer (which PCB alludes to in the MAIB
      article), it might make for easier trailering. Hell, maybe I can even leave
      the mast up with the sail furled on deck if I'm just running back and forth
      to the ramp down the street! I'll have to check the powerlines enroute, but
      I've seen some awfully big trucks make it down my street.

      Does anyone know if PCB offers Long Micro plans with the chinese gaff rig? I
      guess with the book in hand I could probably figure it out for myself,
      knowing that rig already has his blessings for this boat, but it'd be nice
      if it came in the plans! Only reason I haven't sent in my check yet is cuz I
      still may go for the Long.........

      Thanks, all, for sharing your Micro expertise! You've kept my enthusiasm
      high, and I'm hoping to join the fraternity very soon.....

      Paul Lefebvre
      looking for something productive to do through a long Cape Cod winter.....
    • Peter Vanderwaart
      ... blocking ... Up to now, all the stories I have read about pouring keels include the part where the hero takes a propane torch and heats the outlet pipe to
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 1, 2000
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        > clogged up. Molten lead splashed and hardened immediately--
        blocking
        > feeder hole.

        Up to now, all the stories I have read about pouring keels include
        the part where the hero takes a propane torch and heats the outlet
        pipe to re-melt the plug that forms there.

        I don't think that the Micro design relies on any strength from the
        lead keel. If you get the keel properly built around the lead, you
        should be fine.

        Peter
      • Don H. Reed
        Pheww!!!! Gosh, Peter, thanks for saying that...That s a shot in the arm. Cause I was beginning to worry. I thought I could sneak by and build around my
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 1, 2000
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          Pheww!!!!
          Gosh, Peter, thanks for saying that...That's a shot in the arm. 'Cause I
          was beginning to worry. I thought I could sneak by and build around my
          keel-mess...you've pretty much confirmed my thoughts on the subject. Point
          is--to be out on the blue enjoying rather than wringing my hands in worry
          about "keel envy", or worse, keel fall off. Yikes!

          Even if it does, (fall off), @ $0.15 per lbs. for scrap lead...it'll be back
          to the drawing board for sure. Now that's an Idea! Why hasn't one of the
          faithful gone into the mass produced, Micro-keel business? [It's a
          rhetorical question] ;-)

          Thanks for the help.

          Don
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Peter Vanderwaart <pvanderw@...>
          To: bolger@egroups.com <bolger@egroups.com>
          Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 11:09 AM
          Subject: [bolger] Re: Micro keel


          >> clogged up. Molten lead splashed and hardened immediately--
          >blocking
          >> feeder hole.
          >
          >Up to now, all the stories I have read about pouring keels include
          >the part where the hero takes a propane torch and heats the outlet
          >pipe to re-melt the plug that forms there.
          >
          >I don't think that the Micro design relies on any strength from the
          >lead keel. If you get the keel properly built around the lead, you
          >should be fine.
          >
          >Peter
          >
          >
          >
          >Bolger rules!!!
          >- no cursing
          >- stay on topic
          >- use punctuation
          >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
          >- add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
          >
          >
        • Don H. Reed
          I hope so, Paul. By the time I nail that puppy with ring-shanks, she should hold together. I originally planned for one inch nails...now the plan is 1.5
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 1, 2000
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            I hope so, Paul. By the time I nail that puppy with ring-shanks, she should
            hold together. I originally planned for one inch nails...now the plan is
            1.5" ...I'm staying rigidly flexible.

            Don
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Paul A. Lefebvre, Jr. <paul@...>
            To: bolger@egroups.com <bolger@egroups.com>
            Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:29 AM
            Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Micro keel/Navigator rig


            >Thanks, Don....... So is your 'baklava' keel going to work out, with the
            >epoxy 'syrup' poured over it? I'd love to pour my own keel, I'm kind of a
            >compulsive do-it-yourselfer; but I worry about the fumes, etc...... I've
            got
            >an electrician friend who has a plumber's burner designed to melt lead, so
            I
            >would just need to buy a lot of gas..... but it still intimates me some.
            >Dave Jost posted the name of the foundry he got his Micro keel poured at,
            >it's very close by, and the price wasn't too bad, so that may be the one
            >aspect of my micro that I hire out..... we'll see how the winter
            progresses.
            >At this point the whole project still only exists in my head, but I think
            >once I have all these pesky 'how-to' details ironed out in my head I'll be
            >diving in pretty quick.
            >
            >Peter, you did a deadwood keel, with the lead through-bolted rather than
            the
            >hollow plywood box keel section...... I remember a long time about you
            >saying something about having had to compensate for the flotation added by
            >this extra wood versus the would-be free-flooding hollow keel. So your lead
            >must be heavier overall to compensate for the extra flotation of the
            >timbers, and wider since there isn't 1/4" of plywood sandwiched around it,
            >correct? I'd be interested in knowing how you calculated the weight
            >compensation, fore-aft distribution, etc. around those notches to fit the
            >deadwood - would you be willing to share your alternate keel pattern, info
            >on the barrier coat used, structural considerations to receive the bolts,
            >etc? Whether or not I cast my own keel, I will probably want to go with the
            >more stout timber keel for many of the same reasons you once mentioned in
            >this forum. Also, aside from building it for its own sake, the Micro is
            >practice for eventually building a much larger liveaboard boat (hopefully!
            >Otherwise I'll at least have a Micro to cruise around in!) which will also
            >probably have a laminated deadwood keel, so I may as well learn how on a
            >much smaller scale. I've built 4 strip canoes and kayaks, so while I'm
            >confident I can build a keeled plywood boat, it is still new territory for
            >me. Your pictures on Duckworks are excellent, by the way! Thanks for taking
            >the time to put that story together for us.
            >
            >I just ordered '103 rigs' yesterday; I understand the Micro plans now come
            >with the Navigator upgrade so I'm considering the Navigator 'chinese gaff'
            >sail, though I'll stick with the standard cuddy. I've long been a junkie in
            >my boat fantasies and subscribe to the junk rig list as well as this one,
            so
            >I'd like to try out that rig on the Micro with an eye toward gaining
            >experience with the rig for my big dream boat. But since I plan to trailer
            >my micro, this may determine which rig I ultimately use; if the gaffer
            looks
            >too complicated to set up and take down each time, I'll go with the
            standard
            >rig for simplicity. I know I'll go out more often if I don't have to spend
            >too long at the ramp swatting mosquitoes while I rig the boat. Of course if
            >the mast is shorter on the gaffer (which PCB alludes to in the MAIB
            >article), it might make for easier trailering. Hell, maybe I can even leave
            >the mast up with the sail furled on deck if I'm just running back and forth
            >to the ramp down the street! I'll have to check the powerlines enroute, but
            >I've seen some awfully big trucks make it down my street.
            >
            >Does anyone know if PCB offers Long Micro plans with the chinese gaff rig?
            I
            >guess with the book in hand I could probably figure it out for myself,
            >knowing that rig already has his blessings for this boat, but it'd be nice
            >if it came in the plans! Only reason I haven't sent in my check yet is cuz
            I
            >still may go for the Long.........
            >
            >Thanks, all, for sharing your Micro expertise! You've kept my enthusiasm
            >high, and I'm hoping to join the fraternity very soon.....
            >
            >Paul Lefebvre
            >looking for something productive to do through a long Cape Cod winter.....
            >
            >
            >
            >Bolger rules!!!
            >- no cursing
            >- stay on topic
            >- use punctuation
            >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
            >- add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
            >
            >
          • Peter Vanderwaart
            At least one Micro builder subcontracted the lead ballast to a professional. Another did some research with the people who provide lead shielding for dentists
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 1, 2000
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              At least one Micro builder subcontracted the lead ballast to a
              professional.

              Another did some research with the people who provide lead shielding
              for dentists offices, hospitals and other places who use x-rays. The
              were willing to pour a slab of the desired thickness out of which the
              desired shape could be cut. They would buy back the excess lead.

              So, there are many ways to ballast a cat-yawl.

              PHV


              --- In bolger@egroups.com, "Don H. Reed" <donhreed@m...> wrote:
              > Pheww!!!!
              > Gosh, Peter, thanks for saying that...That's a shot in the
              arm. 'Cause I
              > was beginning to worry. I thought I could sneak by and build
              around my
              > keel-mess...you've pretty much confirmed my thoughts on the
              subject. Point
              > is--to be out on the blue enjoying rather than wringing my hands in
              worry
              > about "keel envy", or worse, keel fall off. Yikes!
              >
              > Even if it does, (fall off), @ $0.15 per lbs. for scrap
              lead...it'll be back
              > to the drawing board for sure. Now that's an Idea! Why hasn't one
              of the
              > faithful gone into the mass produced, Micro-keel business? [It's a
              > rhetorical question] ;-)
              >
              > Thanks for the help.
              >
              > Don
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Peter Vanderwaart <pvanderw@o...>
              > To: bolger@egroups.com <bolger@egroups.com>
              > Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 11:09 AM
              > Subject: [bolger] Re: Micro keel
              >
              >
              > >> clogged up. Molten lead splashed and hardened immediately--
              > >blocking
              > >> feeder hole.
              > >
              > >Up to now, all the stories I have read about pouring keels include
              > >the part where the hero takes a propane torch and heats the outlet
              > >pipe to re-melt the plug that forms there.
              > >
              > >I don't think that the Micro design relies on any strength from the
              > >lead keel. If you get the keel properly built around the lead, you
              > >should be fine.
              > >
              > >Peter
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >Bolger rules!!!
              > >- no cursing
              > >- stay on topic
              > >- use punctuation
              > >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
              > >- add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
              > >
              > >
            • Jim Goeckermann
              The list has cycled through keel casting before, but since there are some new builders it might be worth repeating the following: Lead can be melted on the
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 1, 2000
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                The list has cycled through keel casting before, but since there are some new
                builders it might be worth repeating the following:
                Lead can be melted on the kitchen stove (not suggested) or its equivalent - it
                only takes around 750 degrees F. The fumes are toxic, and the arsenic usually
                found in the melt is a concern. Normal free-flowing ventilation will take care
                of this.
                Any (Really, ANY - even a teaspoon!) water can be disasterous. A dripping tin
                roof, a dipper with a few drops of water, or wet wheelweights added to the melt
                can blow the melt right out of the pot and all over you. Thick gloves, good
                boots, layered (non-synthetic) clothing is called for. Eye protection is a must.

                BUT, it is really not that hard to do, and the lead can be sawed (even planed)
                once cast, and since the Micro puts it all in a box, it is OK to have a flawed
                casting. A half a dozen borrowed Coleman stoves and a few garage sale cast iron
                pots will get you in the backyard foundary business. Anyone who has never
                skimmed pieces of steel that are floating on a shiny pool of lead is missing a
                thrill. Furthermore, you may know an expert - any friends who cast bullets or
                fishing weights? Drift boat anchors?
                If the lead is really that much of a block to your building, think about a steel
                piece from a metal salvage yard. They are reasonable, sell by the pound, and
                will cut to order.
                Lastly,( though I have cast a lot of lead - but never a keel) consider doing
                your cast into a 3 sided box. If it is level, you don't need a top! Disclaimer
                - I haven't done it, but I know that the lead finds level all by itself.
                Jim
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