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Re: Micro keel

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  • donhreed@mlc.net
    Paul, Send your money in for the Micro plans...Yes...St. Louis, S. Grand area...Near Carondolet Park. Nice job! I m not frightened by the melting or the
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 1 7:00 AM
      Paul,
      Send your money in for the Micro plans...Yes...St. Louis, S. Grand
      area...Near Carondolet Park. Nice job!

      I'm not frightened by the melting or the pouring...frustrated is more
      the word. Four bags of charcoal @ 25 deg. each brickette...still
      could not heat hot enough to melt 20#. Used the Turkey-fryer
      @170,000 BTU...more frustration. 1.5" x 7" opening in my mold
      clogged up. Molten lead splashed and hardened immediately--blocking
      feeder hole. Maddeningly, I laid the mold flat, removed all the
      screws, began ladeling in hot lead. Guess what, without a Bessimer
      Blast furnace, it's done one pot/tincan-full at a time!! What you
      wind up with is a lead Baklava. (Multi-layers)

      I now have a layered keel...not a solid one, as I'm sure the designer
      intended. Although it may have many layers, the lead plys lay in the
      correct direction; and, it's just as heavy. I'm not giving up on
      this...Once this monstrocity is placed beneath the hull, slathered in
      epoxy and sandwiched with plywood, then nailed with SB ring-shank
      nails...gawd, it's ugly!

      #1. You'll need a blast-furnace or lots of friends with turkey
      fryers to keep a lot of lead molten. (1200 deg. F.)
      #2. Don't do it outdoors or the lead with solidify pretty darn quick
      and with not stay liquid long enough to fill in the nooks and crannys
      of your mold.
      #3. If indoors--ventilate!!
      #4. Save a lot of time and energy--have a foundry do it!

      Don Reed
      --- In bolger@egroups.com, "Paul A. Lefebvre, Jr." <paul@w...> wrote:
      > Hey Don,
      > I'm about to send in my check and start my Micro - let us
      know how the
      > turkey fryer works, the only aspect of this project that I find
      somewhat
      > intimidating is the keel pouring!
      >
      > Now let me check out this handy-dandy internet 'latitude/longitude
      finder' I
      > just searched up - are you in St. Louis, in the vicinity of S.
      Grand Blvd?
      >
      > Paul Lefebvre
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: donhreed@m... [mailto:donhreed@m...]
      > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 3:38 PM
      > To: bolger@egroups.com
      > Subject: [bolger] Micro keel
      >
      > Hello list,
      > New member here. ...been reading and thoroughly enjoying...
      > Building a Micro...single-handed...she's 80% built about now, she's
      > on her feet and needing a keel. Tried the 55 gal drum cut in two
      > w/charcoal. Not hot enough to melt 10 lbs. Hah, talked myself into
      > buying a Turkey-Fryer (170,000 btu) propane/outdoor stove. This
      > weekend should do one of two things-:
      > Fry a turkey, or
      > melt 420# of lead.
      >
      > Later & Happy Halloween,
      >
      > Don Reed
      > N38 34.4 -- W90 16.1
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Bolger rules!!!
      > - no cursing
      > - stay on topic
      > - use punctuation
      > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
      > - add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
    • Paul A. Lefebvre, Jr.
      Thanks, Don....... So is your baklava keel going to work out, with the epoxy syrup poured over it? I d love to pour my own keel, I m kind of a compulsive
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 1 8:30 AM
        Thanks, Don....... So is your 'baklava' keel going to work out, with the
        epoxy 'syrup' poured over it? I'd love to pour my own keel, I'm kind of a
        compulsive do-it-yourselfer; but I worry about the fumes, etc...... I've got
        an electrician friend who has a plumber's burner designed to melt lead, so I
        would just need to buy a lot of gas..... but it still intimates me some.
        Dave Jost posted the name of the foundry he got his Micro keel poured at,
        it's very close by, and the price wasn't too bad, so that may be the one
        aspect of my micro that I hire out..... we'll see how the winter progresses.
        At this point the whole project still only exists in my head, but I think
        once I have all these pesky 'how-to' details ironed out in my head I'll be
        diving in pretty quick.

        Peter, you did a deadwood keel, with the lead through-bolted rather than the
        hollow plywood box keel section...... I remember a long time about you
        saying something about having had to compensate for the flotation added by
        this extra wood versus the would-be free-flooding hollow keel. So your lead
        must be heavier overall to compensate for the extra flotation of the
        timbers, and wider since there isn't 1/4" of plywood sandwiched around it,
        correct? I'd be interested in knowing how you calculated the weight
        compensation, fore-aft distribution, etc. around those notches to fit the
        deadwood - would you be willing to share your alternate keel pattern, info
        on the barrier coat used, structural considerations to receive the bolts,
        etc? Whether or not I cast my own keel, I will probably want to go with the
        more stout timber keel for many of the same reasons you once mentioned in
        this forum. Also, aside from building it for its own sake, the Micro is
        practice for eventually building a much larger liveaboard boat (hopefully!
        Otherwise I'll at least have a Micro to cruise around in!) which will also
        probably have a laminated deadwood keel, so I may as well learn how on a
        much smaller scale. I've built 4 strip canoes and kayaks, so while I'm
        confident I can build a keeled plywood boat, it is still new territory for
        me. Your pictures on Duckworks are excellent, by the way! Thanks for taking
        the time to put that story together for us.

        I just ordered '103 rigs' yesterday; I understand the Micro plans now come
        with the Navigator upgrade so I'm considering the Navigator 'chinese gaff'
        sail, though I'll stick with the standard cuddy. I've long been a junkie in
        my boat fantasies and subscribe to the junk rig list as well as this one, so
        I'd like to try out that rig on the Micro with an eye toward gaining
        experience with the rig for my big dream boat. But since I plan to trailer
        my micro, this may determine which rig I ultimately use; if the gaffer looks
        too complicated to set up and take down each time, I'll go with the standard
        rig for simplicity. I know I'll go out more often if I don't have to spend
        too long at the ramp swatting mosquitoes while I rig the boat. Of course if
        the mast is shorter on the gaffer (which PCB alludes to in the MAIB
        article), it might make for easier trailering. Hell, maybe I can even leave
        the mast up with the sail furled on deck if I'm just running back and forth
        to the ramp down the street! I'll have to check the powerlines enroute, but
        I've seen some awfully big trucks make it down my street.

        Does anyone know if PCB offers Long Micro plans with the chinese gaff rig? I
        guess with the book in hand I could probably figure it out for myself,
        knowing that rig already has his blessings for this boat, but it'd be nice
        if it came in the plans! Only reason I haven't sent in my check yet is cuz I
        still may go for the Long.........

        Thanks, all, for sharing your Micro expertise! You've kept my enthusiasm
        high, and I'm hoping to join the fraternity very soon.....

        Paul Lefebvre
        looking for something productive to do through a long Cape Cod winter.....
      • Peter Vanderwaart
        ... blocking ... Up to now, all the stories I have read about pouring keels include the part where the hero takes a propane torch and heats the outlet pipe to
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 1 9:09 AM
          > clogged up. Molten lead splashed and hardened immediately--
          blocking
          > feeder hole.

          Up to now, all the stories I have read about pouring keels include
          the part where the hero takes a propane torch and heats the outlet
          pipe to re-melt the plug that forms there.

          I don't think that the Micro design relies on any strength from the
          lead keel. If you get the keel properly built around the lead, you
          should be fine.

          Peter
        • Don H. Reed
          Pheww!!!! Gosh, Peter, thanks for saying that...That s a shot in the arm. Cause I was beginning to worry. I thought I could sneak by and build around my
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 1 10:06 AM
            Pheww!!!!
            Gosh, Peter, thanks for saying that...That's a shot in the arm. 'Cause I
            was beginning to worry. I thought I could sneak by and build around my
            keel-mess...you've pretty much confirmed my thoughts on the subject. Point
            is--to be out on the blue enjoying rather than wringing my hands in worry
            about "keel envy", or worse, keel fall off. Yikes!

            Even if it does, (fall off), @ $0.15 per lbs. for scrap lead...it'll be back
            to the drawing board for sure. Now that's an Idea! Why hasn't one of the
            faithful gone into the mass produced, Micro-keel business? [It's a
            rhetorical question] ;-)

            Thanks for the help.

            Don
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Peter Vanderwaart <pvanderw@...>
            To: bolger@egroups.com <bolger@egroups.com>
            Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 11:09 AM
            Subject: [bolger] Re: Micro keel


            >> clogged up. Molten lead splashed and hardened immediately--
            >blocking
            >> feeder hole.
            >
            >Up to now, all the stories I have read about pouring keels include
            >the part where the hero takes a propane torch and heats the outlet
            >pipe to re-melt the plug that forms there.
            >
            >I don't think that the Micro design relies on any strength from the
            >lead keel. If you get the keel properly built around the lead, you
            >should be fine.
            >
            >Peter
            >
            >
            >
            >Bolger rules!!!
            >- no cursing
            >- stay on topic
            >- use punctuation
            >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
            >- add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
            >
            >
          • Don H. Reed
            I hope so, Paul. By the time I nail that puppy with ring-shanks, she should hold together. I originally planned for one inch nails...now the plan is 1.5
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 1 10:11 AM
              I hope so, Paul. By the time I nail that puppy with ring-shanks, she should
              hold together. I originally planned for one inch nails...now the plan is
              1.5" ...I'm staying rigidly flexible.

              Don
              -----Original Message-----
              From: Paul A. Lefebvre, Jr. <paul@...>
              To: bolger@egroups.com <bolger@egroups.com>
              Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:29 AM
              Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Micro keel/Navigator rig


              >Thanks, Don....... So is your 'baklava' keel going to work out, with the
              >epoxy 'syrup' poured over it? I'd love to pour my own keel, I'm kind of a
              >compulsive do-it-yourselfer; but I worry about the fumes, etc...... I've
              got
              >an electrician friend who has a plumber's burner designed to melt lead, so
              I
              >would just need to buy a lot of gas..... but it still intimates me some.
              >Dave Jost posted the name of the foundry he got his Micro keel poured at,
              >it's very close by, and the price wasn't too bad, so that may be the one
              >aspect of my micro that I hire out..... we'll see how the winter
              progresses.
              >At this point the whole project still only exists in my head, but I think
              >once I have all these pesky 'how-to' details ironed out in my head I'll be
              >diving in pretty quick.
              >
              >Peter, you did a deadwood keel, with the lead through-bolted rather than
              the
              >hollow plywood box keel section...... I remember a long time about you
              >saying something about having had to compensate for the flotation added by
              >this extra wood versus the would-be free-flooding hollow keel. So your lead
              >must be heavier overall to compensate for the extra flotation of the
              >timbers, and wider since there isn't 1/4" of plywood sandwiched around it,
              >correct? I'd be interested in knowing how you calculated the weight
              >compensation, fore-aft distribution, etc. around those notches to fit the
              >deadwood - would you be willing to share your alternate keel pattern, info
              >on the barrier coat used, structural considerations to receive the bolts,
              >etc? Whether or not I cast my own keel, I will probably want to go with the
              >more stout timber keel for many of the same reasons you once mentioned in
              >this forum. Also, aside from building it for its own sake, the Micro is
              >practice for eventually building a much larger liveaboard boat (hopefully!
              >Otherwise I'll at least have a Micro to cruise around in!) which will also
              >probably have a laminated deadwood keel, so I may as well learn how on a
              >much smaller scale. I've built 4 strip canoes and kayaks, so while I'm
              >confident I can build a keeled plywood boat, it is still new territory for
              >me. Your pictures on Duckworks are excellent, by the way! Thanks for taking
              >the time to put that story together for us.
              >
              >I just ordered '103 rigs' yesterday; I understand the Micro plans now come
              >with the Navigator upgrade so I'm considering the Navigator 'chinese gaff'
              >sail, though I'll stick with the standard cuddy. I've long been a junkie in
              >my boat fantasies and subscribe to the junk rig list as well as this one,
              so
              >I'd like to try out that rig on the Micro with an eye toward gaining
              >experience with the rig for my big dream boat. But since I plan to trailer
              >my micro, this may determine which rig I ultimately use; if the gaffer
              looks
              >too complicated to set up and take down each time, I'll go with the
              standard
              >rig for simplicity. I know I'll go out more often if I don't have to spend
              >too long at the ramp swatting mosquitoes while I rig the boat. Of course if
              >the mast is shorter on the gaffer (which PCB alludes to in the MAIB
              >article), it might make for easier trailering. Hell, maybe I can even leave
              >the mast up with the sail furled on deck if I'm just running back and forth
              >to the ramp down the street! I'll have to check the powerlines enroute, but
              >I've seen some awfully big trucks make it down my street.
              >
              >Does anyone know if PCB offers Long Micro plans with the chinese gaff rig?
              I
              >guess with the book in hand I could probably figure it out for myself,
              >knowing that rig already has his blessings for this boat, but it'd be nice
              >if it came in the plans! Only reason I haven't sent in my check yet is cuz
              I
              >still may go for the Long.........
              >
              >Thanks, all, for sharing your Micro expertise! You've kept my enthusiasm
              >high, and I'm hoping to join the fraternity very soon.....
              >
              >Paul Lefebvre
              >looking for something productive to do through a long Cape Cod winter.....
              >
              >
              >
              >Bolger rules!!!
              >- no cursing
              >- stay on topic
              >- use punctuation
              >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
              >- add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
              >
              >
            • Peter Vanderwaart
              At least one Micro builder subcontracted the lead ballast to a professional. Another did some research with the people who provide lead shielding for dentists
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 1 11:19 AM
                At least one Micro builder subcontracted the lead ballast to a
                professional.

                Another did some research with the people who provide lead shielding
                for dentists offices, hospitals and other places who use x-rays. The
                were willing to pour a slab of the desired thickness out of which the
                desired shape could be cut. They would buy back the excess lead.

                So, there are many ways to ballast a cat-yawl.

                PHV


                --- In bolger@egroups.com, "Don H. Reed" <donhreed@m...> wrote:
                > Pheww!!!!
                > Gosh, Peter, thanks for saying that...That's a shot in the
                arm. 'Cause I
                > was beginning to worry. I thought I could sneak by and build
                around my
                > keel-mess...you've pretty much confirmed my thoughts on the
                subject. Point
                > is--to be out on the blue enjoying rather than wringing my hands in
                worry
                > about "keel envy", or worse, keel fall off. Yikes!
                >
                > Even if it does, (fall off), @ $0.15 per lbs. for scrap
                lead...it'll be back
                > to the drawing board for sure. Now that's an Idea! Why hasn't one
                of the
                > faithful gone into the mass produced, Micro-keel business? [It's a
                > rhetorical question] ;-)
                >
                > Thanks for the help.
                >
                > Don
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Peter Vanderwaart <pvanderw@o...>
                > To: bolger@egroups.com <bolger@egroups.com>
                > Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 11:09 AM
                > Subject: [bolger] Re: Micro keel
                >
                >
                > >> clogged up. Molten lead splashed and hardened immediately--
                > >blocking
                > >> feeder hole.
                > >
                > >Up to now, all the stories I have read about pouring keels include
                > >the part where the hero takes a propane torch and heats the outlet
                > >pipe to re-melt the plug that forms there.
                > >
                > >I don't think that the Micro design relies on any strength from the
                > >lead keel. If you get the keel properly built around the lead, you
                > >should be fine.
                > >
                > >Peter
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >Bolger rules!!!
                > >- no cursing
                > >- stay on topic
                > >- use punctuation
                > >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
                > >- add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
                > >
                > >
              • Jim Goeckermann
                The list has cycled through keel casting before, but since there are some new builders it might be worth repeating the following: Lead can be melted on the
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 1 5:02 PM
                  The list has cycled through keel casting before, but since there are some new
                  builders it might be worth repeating the following:
                  Lead can be melted on the kitchen stove (not suggested) or its equivalent - it
                  only takes around 750 degrees F. The fumes are toxic, and the arsenic usually
                  found in the melt is a concern. Normal free-flowing ventilation will take care
                  of this.
                  Any (Really, ANY - even a teaspoon!) water can be disasterous. A dripping tin
                  roof, a dipper with a few drops of water, or wet wheelweights added to the melt
                  can blow the melt right out of the pot and all over you. Thick gloves, good
                  boots, layered (non-synthetic) clothing is called for. Eye protection is a must.

                  BUT, it is really not that hard to do, and the lead can be sawed (even planed)
                  once cast, and since the Micro puts it all in a box, it is OK to have a flawed
                  casting. A half a dozen borrowed Coleman stoves and a few garage sale cast iron
                  pots will get you in the backyard foundary business. Anyone who has never
                  skimmed pieces of steel that are floating on a shiny pool of lead is missing a
                  thrill. Furthermore, you may know an expert - any friends who cast bullets or
                  fishing weights? Drift boat anchors?
                  If the lead is really that much of a block to your building, think about a steel
                  piece from a metal salvage yard. They are reasonable, sell by the pound, and
                  will cut to order.
                  Lastly,( though I have cast a lot of lead - but never a keel) consider doing
                  your cast into a 3 sided box. If it is level, you don't need a top! Disclaimer
                  - I haven't done it, but I know that the lead finds level all by itself.
                  Jim
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