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Re: Micro keel

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  • peter lenihan
    To Don and Paul, The keel on the Micro really is not that difficult.Also,there are many ways to do one.Click
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 1, 2000
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      To Don and Paul,
      The keel on the Micro really is not that difficult.Also,there
      are many ways to do one.Click
      here:http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/articles/micro/index.htm to see
      how I did mine and perhaps pick up some ideas for your own particular
      situation.I would be glad to answer any questions you may have about
      the MICRO,"the cutest little yacht in any harbour"!
      Sincerely,
      Peter Lenihan,rooting around like a pig on speed,since he put his
      MICRO to bed for the winter,on the not yet frozen but always polluted
      shores of the St.Lawrence..........




      --- In bolger@egroups.com, "Paul A. Lefebvre, Jr." <paul@w...> wrote:
      > Hey Don,
      > I'm about to send in my check and start my Micro - let us
      know how the
      > turkey fryer works, the only aspect of this project that I find
      somewhat
      > intimidating is the keel pouring!
      >
      > Now let me check out this handy-dandy internet 'latitude/longitude
      finder' I
      > just searched up - are you in St. Louis, in the vicinity of S.
      Grand Blvd?
      >
      > Paul Lefebvre
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: donhreed@m... [mailto:donhreed@m...]
      > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 3:38 PM
      > To: bolger@egroups.com
      > Subject: [bolger] Micro keel
      >
      > Hello list,
      > New member here. ...been reading and thoroughly enjoying...
      > Building a Micro...single-handed...she's 80% built about now, she's
      > on her feet and needing a keel. Tried the 55 gal drum cut in two
      > w/charcoal. Not hot enough to melt 10 lbs. Hah, talked myself into
      > buying a Turkey-Fryer (170,000 btu) propane/outdoor stove. This
      > weekend should do one of two things-:
      > Fry a turkey, or
      > melt 420# of lead.
      >
      > Later & Happy Halloween,
      >
      > Don Reed
      > N38 34.4 -- W90 16.1
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Bolger rules!!!
      > - no cursing
      > - stay on topic
      > - use punctuation
      > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
      > - add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
    • donhreed@mlc.net
      Paul, Send your money in for the Micro plans...Yes...St. Louis, S. Grand area...Near Carondolet Park. Nice job! I m not frightened by the melting or the
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 1, 2000
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        Paul,
        Send your money in for the Micro plans...Yes...St. Louis, S. Grand
        area...Near Carondolet Park. Nice job!

        I'm not frightened by the melting or the pouring...frustrated is more
        the word. Four bags of charcoal @ 25 deg. each brickette...still
        could not heat hot enough to melt 20#. Used the Turkey-fryer
        @170,000 BTU...more frustration. 1.5" x 7" opening in my mold
        clogged up. Molten lead splashed and hardened immediately--blocking
        feeder hole. Maddeningly, I laid the mold flat, removed all the
        screws, began ladeling in hot lead. Guess what, without a Bessimer
        Blast furnace, it's done one pot/tincan-full at a time!! What you
        wind up with is a lead Baklava. (Multi-layers)

        I now have a layered keel...not a solid one, as I'm sure the designer
        intended. Although it may have many layers, the lead plys lay in the
        correct direction; and, it's just as heavy. I'm not giving up on
        this...Once this monstrocity is placed beneath the hull, slathered in
        epoxy and sandwiched with plywood, then nailed with SB ring-shank
        nails...gawd, it's ugly!

        #1. You'll need a blast-furnace or lots of friends with turkey
        fryers to keep a lot of lead molten. (1200 deg. F.)
        #2. Don't do it outdoors or the lead with solidify pretty darn quick
        and with not stay liquid long enough to fill in the nooks and crannys
        of your mold.
        #3. If indoors--ventilate!!
        #4. Save a lot of time and energy--have a foundry do it!

        Don Reed
        --- In bolger@egroups.com, "Paul A. Lefebvre, Jr." <paul@w...> wrote:
        > Hey Don,
        > I'm about to send in my check and start my Micro - let us
        know how the
        > turkey fryer works, the only aspect of this project that I find
        somewhat
        > intimidating is the keel pouring!
        >
        > Now let me check out this handy-dandy internet 'latitude/longitude
        finder' I
        > just searched up - are you in St. Louis, in the vicinity of S.
        Grand Blvd?
        >
        > Paul Lefebvre
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: donhreed@m... [mailto:donhreed@m...]
        > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 3:38 PM
        > To: bolger@egroups.com
        > Subject: [bolger] Micro keel
        >
        > Hello list,
        > New member here. ...been reading and thoroughly enjoying...
        > Building a Micro...single-handed...she's 80% built about now, she's
        > on her feet and needing a keel. Tried the 55 gal drum cut in two
        > w/charcoal. Not hot enough to melt 10 lbs. Hah, talked myself into
        > buying a Turkey-Fryer (170,000 btu) propane/outdoor stove. This
        > weekend should do one of two things-:
        > Fry a turkey, or
        > melt 420# of lead.
        >
        > Later & Happy Halloween,
        >
        > Don Reed
        > N38 34.4 -- W90 16.1
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Bolger rules!!!
        > - no cursing
        > - stay on topic
        > - use punctuation
        > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
        > - add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
      • Paul A. Lefebvre, Jr.
        Thanks, Don....... So is your baklava keel going to work out, with the epoxy syrup poured over it? I d love to pour my own keel, I m kind of a compulsive
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 1, 2000
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          Thanks, Don....... So is your 'baklava' keel going to work out, with the
          epoxy 'syrup' poured over it? I'd love to pour my own keel, I'm kind of a
          compulsive do-it-yourselfer; but I worry about the fumes, etc...... I've got
          an electrician friend who has a plumber's burner designed to melt lead, so I
          would just need to buy a lot of gas..... but it still intimates me some.
          Dave Jost posted the name of the foundry he got his Micro keel poured at,
          it's very close by, and the price wasn't too bad, so that may be the one
          aspect of my micro that I hire out..... we'll see how the winter progresses.
          At this point the whole project still only exists in my head, but I think
          once I have all these pesky 'how-to' details ironed out in my head I'll be
          diving in pretty quick.

          Peter, you did a deadwood keel, with the lead through-bolted rather than the
          hollow plywood box keel section...... I remember a long time about you
          saying something about having had to compensate for the flotation added by
          this extra wood versus the would-be free-flooding hollow keel. So your lead
          must be heavier overall to compensate for the extra flotation of the
          timbers, and wider since there isn't 1/4" of plywood sandwiched around it,
          correct? I'd be interested in knowing how you calculated the weight
          compensation, fore-aft distribution, etc. around those notches to fit the
          deadwood - would you be willing to share your alternate keel pattern, info
          on the barrier coat used, structural considerations to receive the bolts,
          etc? Whether or not I cast my own keel, I will probably want to go with the
          more stout timber keel for many of the same reasons you once mentioned in
          this forum. Also, aside from building it for its own sake, the Micro is
          practice for eventually building a much larger liveaboard boat (hopefully!
          Otherwise I'll at least have a Micro to cruise around in!) which will also
          probably have a laminated deadwood keel, so I may as well learn how on a
          much smaller scale. I've built 4 strip canoes and kayaks, so while I'm
          confident I can build a keeled plywood boat, it is still new territory for
          me. Your pictures on Duckworks are excellent, by the way! Thanks for taking
          the time to put that story together for us.

          I just ordered '103 rigs' yesterday; I understand the Micro plans now come
          with the Navigator upgrade so I'm considering the Navigator 'chinese gaff'
          sail, though I'll stick with the standard cuddy. I've long been a junkie in
          my boat fantasies and subscribe to the junk rig list as well as this one, so
          I'd like to try out that rig on the Micro with an eye toward gaining
          experience with the rig for my big dream boat. But since I plan to trailer
          my micro, this may determine which rig I ultimately use; if the gaffer looks
          too complicated to set up and take down each time, I'll go with the standard
          rig for simplicity. I know I'll go out more often if I don't have to spend
          too long at the ramp swatting mosquitoes while I rig the boat. Of course if
          the mast is shorter on the gaffer (which PCB alludes to in the MAIB
          article), it might make for easier trailering. Hell, maybe I can even leave
          the mast up with the sail furled on deck if I'm just running back and forth
          to the ramp down the street! I'll have to check the powerlines enroute, but
          I've seen some awfully big trucks make it down my street.

          Does anyone know if PCB offers Long Micro plans with the chinese gaff rig? I
          guess with the book in hand I could probably figure it out for myself,
          knowing that rig already has his blessings for this boat, but it'd be nice
          if it came in the plans! Only reason I haven't sent in my check yet is cuz I
          still may go for the Long.........

          Thanks, all, for sharing your Micro expertise! You've kept my enthusiasm
          high, and I'm hoping to join the fraternity very soon.....

          Paul Lefebvre
          looking for something productive to do through a long Cape Cod winter.....
        • Peter Vanderwaart
          ... blocking ... Up to now, all the stories I have read about pouring keels include the part where the hero takes a propane torch and heats the outlet pipe to
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 1, 2000
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            > clogged up. Molten lead splashed and hardened immediately--
            blocking
            > feeder hole.

            Up to now, all the stories I have read about pouring keels include
            the part where the hero takes a propane torch and heats the outlet
            pipe to re-melt the plug that forms there.

            I don't think that the Micro design relies on any strength from the
            lead keel. If you get the keel properly built around the lead, you
            should be fine.

            Peter
          • Don H. Reed
            Pheww!!!! Gosh, Peter, thanks for saying that...That s a shot in the arm. Cause I was beginning to worry. I thought I could sneak by and build around my
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 1, 2000
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              Pheww!!!!
              Gosh, Peter, thanks for saying that...That's a shot in the arm. 'Cause I
              was beginning to worry. I thought I could sneak by and build around my
              keel-mess...you've pretty much confirmed my thoughts on the subject. Point
              is--to be out on the blue enjoying rather than wringing my hands in worry
              about "keel envy", or worse, keel fall off. Yikes!

              Even if it does, (fall off), @ $0.15 per lbs. for scrap lead...it'll be back
              to the drawing board for sure. Now that's an Idea! Why hasn't one of the
              faithful gone into the mass produced, Micro-keel business? [It's a
              rhetorical question] ;-)

              Thanks for the help.

              Don
              -----Original Message-----
              From: Peter Vanderwaart <pvanderw@...>
              To: bolger@egroups.com <bolger@egroups.com>
              Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 11:09 AM
              Subject: [bolger] Re: Micro keel


              >> clogged up. Molten lead splashed and hardened immediately--
              >blocking
              >> feeder hole.
              >
              >Up to now, all the stories I have read about pouring keels include
              >the part where the hero takes a propane torch and heats the outlet
              >pipe to re-melt the plug that forms there.
              >
              >I don't think that the Micro design relies on any strength from the
              >lead keel. If you get the keel properly built around the lead, you
              >should be fine.
              >
              >Peter
              >
              >
              >
              >Bolger rules!!!
              >- no cursing
              >- stay on topic
              >- use punctuation
              >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
              >- add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
              >
              >
            • Don H. Reed
              I hope so, Paul. By the time I nail that puppy with ring-shanks, she should hold together. I originally planned for one inch nails...now the plan is 1.5
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 1, 2000
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                I hope so, Paul. By the time I nail that puppy with ring-shanks, she should
                hold together. I originally planned for one inch nails...now the plan is
                1.5" ...I'm staying rigidly flexible.

                Don
                -----Original Message-----
                From: Paul A. Lefebvre, Jr. <paul@...>
                To: bolger@egroups.com <bolger@egroups.com>
                Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:29 AM
                Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Micro keel/Navigator rig


                >Thanks, Don....... So is your 'baklava' keel going to work out, with the
                >epoxy 'syrup' poured over it? I'd love to pour my own keel, I'm kind of a
                >compulsive do-it-yourselfer; but I worry about the fumes, etc...... I've
                got
                >an electrician friend who has a plumber's burner designed to melt lead, so
                I
                >would just need to buy a lot of gas..... but it still intimates me some.
                >Dave Jost posted the name of the foundry he got his Micro keel poured at,
                >it's very close by, and the price wasn't too bad, so that may be the one
                >aspect of my micro that I hire out..... we'll see how the winter
                progresses.
                >At this point the whole project still only exists in my head, but I think
                >once I have all these pesky 'how-to' details ironed out in my head I'll be
                >diving in pretty quick.
                >
                >Peter, you did a deadwood keel, with the lead through-bolted rather than
                the
                >hollow plywood box keel section...... I remember a long time about you
                >saying something about having had to compensate for the flotation added by
                >this extra wood versus the would-be free-flooding hollow keel. So your lead
                >must be heavier overall to compensate for the extra flotation of the
                >timbers, and wider since there isn't 1/4" of plywood sandwiched around it,
                >correct? I'd be interested in knowing how you calculated the weight
                >compensation, fore-aft distribution, etc. around those notches to fit the
                >deadwood - would you be willing to share your alternate keel pattern, info
                >on the barrier coat used, structural considerations to receive the bolts,
                >etc? Whether or not I cast my own keel, I will probably want to go with the
                >more stout timber keel for many of the same reasons you once mentioned in
                >this forum. Also, aside from building it for its own sake, the Micro is
                >practice for eventually building a much larger liveaboard boat (hopefully!
                >Otherwise I'll at least have a Micro to cruise around in!) which will also
                >probably have a laminated deadwood keel, so I may as well learn how on a
                >much smaller scale. I've built 4 strip canoes and kayaks, so while I'm
                >confident I can build a keeled plywood boat, it is still new territory for
                >me. Your pictures on Duckworks are excellent, by the way! Thanks for taking
                >the time to put that story together for us.
                >
                >I just ordered '103 rigs' yesterday; I understand the Micro plans now come
                >with the Navigator upgrade so I'm considering the Navigator 'chinese gaff'
                >sail, though I'll stick with the standard cuddy. I've long been a junkie in
                >my boat fantasies and subscribe to the junk rig list as well as this one,
                so
                >I'd like to try out that rig on the Micro with an eye toward gaining
                >experience with the rig for my big dream boat. But since I plan to trailer
                >my micro, this may determine which rig I ultimately use; if the gaffer
                looks
                >too complicated to set up and take down each time, I'll go with the
                standard
                >rig for simplicity. I know I'll go out more often if I don't have to spend
                >too long at the ramp swatting mosquitoes while I rig the boat. Of course if
                >the mast is shorter on the gaffer (which PCB alludes to in the MAIB
                >article), it might make for easier trailering. Hell, maybe I can even leave
                >the mast up with the sail furled on deck if I'm just running back and forth
                >to the ramp down the street! I'll have to check the powerlines enroute, but
                >I've seen some awfully big trucks make it down my street.
                >
                >Does anyone know if PCB offers Long Micro plans with the chinese gaff rig?
                I
                >guess with the book in hand I could probably figure it out for myself,
                >knowing that rig already has his blessings for this boat, but it'd be nice
                >if it came in the plans! Only reason I haven't sent in my check yet is cuz
                I
                >still may go for the Long.........
                >
                >Thanks, all, for sharing your Micro expertise! You've kept my enthusiasm
                >high, and I'm hoping to join the fraternity very soon.....
                >
                >Paul Lefebvre
                >looking for something productive to do through a long Cape Cod winter.....
                >
                >
                >
                >Bolger rules!!!
                >- no cursing
                >- stay on topic
                >- use punctuation
                >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
                >- add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
                >
                >
              • Peter Vanderwaart
                At least one Micro builder subcontracted the lead ballast to a professional. Another did some research with the people who provide lead shielding for dentists
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 1, 2000
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                  At least one Micro builder subcontracted the lead ballast to a
                  professional.

                  Another did some research with the people who provide lead shielding
                  for dentists offices, hospitals and other places who use x-rays. The
                  were willing to pour a slab of the desired thickness out of which the
                  desired shape could be cut. They would buy back the excess lead.

                  So, there are many ways to ballast a cat-yawl.

                  PHV


                  --- In bolger@egroups.com, "Don H. Reed" <donhreed@m...> wrote:
                  > Pheww!!!!
                  > Gosh, Peter, thanks for saying that...That's a shot in the
                  arm. 'Cause I
                  > was beginning to worry. I thought I could sneak by and build
                  around my
                  > keel-mess...you've pretty much confirmed my thoughts on the
                  subject. Point
                  > is--to be out on the blue enjoying rather than wringing my hands in
                  worry
                  > about "keel envy", or worse, keel fall off. Yikes!
                  >
                  > Even if it does, (fall off), @ $0.15 per lbs. for scrap
                  lead...it'll be back
                  > to the drawing board for sure. Now that's an Idea! Why hasn't one
                  of the
                  > faithful gone into the mass produced, Micro-keel business? [It's a
                  > rhetorical question] ;-)
                  >
                  > Thanks for the help.
                  >
                  > Don
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Peter Vanderwaart <pvanderw@o...>
                  > To: bolger@egroups.com <bolger@egroups.com>
                  > Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 11:09 AM
                  > Subject: [bolger] Re: Micro keel
                  >
                  >
                  > >> clogged up. Molten lead splashed and hardened immediately--
                  > >blocking
                  > >> feeder hole.
                  > >
                  > >Up to now, all the stories I have read about pouring keels include
                  > >the part where the hero takes a propane torch and heats the outlet
                  > >pipe to re-melt the plug that forms there.
                  > >
                  > >I don't think that the Micro design relies on any strength from the
                  > >lead keel. If you get the keel properly built around the lead, you
                  > >should be fine.
                  > >
                  > >Peter
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >Bolger rules!!!
                  > >- no cursing
                  > >- stay on topic
                  > >- use punctuation
                  > >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
                  > >- add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
                  > >
                  > >
                • Jim Goeckermann
                  The list has cycled through keel casting before, but since there are some new builders it might be worth repeating the following: Lead can be melted on the
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 1, 2000
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                    The list has cycled through keel casting before, but since there are some new
                    builders it might be worth repeating the following:
                    Lead can be melted on the kitchen stove (not suggested) or its equivalent - it
                    only takes around 750 degrees F. The fumes are toxic, and the arsenic usually
                    found in the melt is a concern. Normal free-flowing ventilation will take care
                    of this.
                    Any (Really, ANY - even a teaspoon!) water can be disasterous. A dripping tin
                    roof, a dipper with a few drops of water, or wet wheelweights added to the melt
                    can blow the melt right out of the pot and all over you. Thick gloves, good
                    boots, layered (non-synthetic) clothing is called for. Eye protection is a must.

                    BUT, it is really not that hard to do, and the lead can be sawed (even planed)
                    once cast, and since the Micro puts it all in a box, it is OK to have a flawed
                    casting. A half a dozen borrowed Coleman stoves and a few garage sale cast iron
                    pots will get you in the backyard foundary business. Anyone who has never
                    skimmed pieces of steel that are floating on a shiny pool of lead is missing a
                    thrill. Furthermore, you may know an expert - any friends who cast bullets or
                    fishing weights? Drift boat anchors?
                    If the lead is really that much of a block to your building, think about a steel
                    piece from a metal salvage yard. They are reasonable, sell by the pound, and
                    will cut to order.
                    Lastly,( though I have cast a lot of lead - but never a keel) consider doing
                    your cast into a 3 sided box. If it is level, you don't need a top! Disclaimer
                    - I haven't done it, but I know that the lead finds level all by itself.
                    Jim
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