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Dipping lug as a cruising rig

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  • cluttonfred
    All, a random question... Other than Phil and Susanne, are there any other modern proponents of the dipping lug as a cruising or motorsailing rig? Cheers,
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 28 1:26 AM
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      All, a random question...  Other than Phil and Susanne, are there any other modern proponents of the dipping lug as a cruising or motorsailing rig?  Cheers, Matthew
    • Dan Burrill
      I m not sure about the dipping lug specifically, but I know Nigel Irens has designed at least one open cruising boat with a schooner rig and standing lugsails.
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 28 2:52 AM
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        I'm not sure about the dipping lug specifically, but I know Nigel Irens has designed at least one open cruising boat with a schooner rig and standing lugsails. I can't for the life of me remember the name of the deisgn, but it was intended for use by parties of teenage schoolchildren. I raced against one a few years ago when I crewed on a friend's boat in the Three Rivers Race. As I recall she did ok, although that may have been due to a somewhat generous handicap. Then again, just finishing the course of the Three Rivers in under 24 hours is a decent achievement.

        Regards,

        Dan Burrill

        On 28/02/2014 09:26, owlnmole@... wrote:
         

        All, a random question...  Other than Phil and Susanne, are there any other modern proponents of the dipping lug as a cruising or motorsailing rig?  Cheers, Matthew


      • Mike Allison
        I think more use a balanced lug than a dipping lug. I think even Phil Bolger to the balanced lug a lot more than a dipping lug. I sure would not want the have
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 28 3:14 AM
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          I think more use a balanced lug than a dipping lug. I think even Phil Bolger to the balanced lug a lot more than a dipping lug.
          I sure would not want the have to go forward in bad weather on a cruising boat swing the yard to the lee side on every tack.

          If it was me, I'd rather go with a balanced lug or even a junk rig for a real low-stress combination.
          Mike Allison   (North of Kansas City Mo,  USA)
          
          E-Mail: mysloop@...
          On 2/28/2014 4:52 AM, Dan Burrill wrote:
           

          I'm not sure about the dipping lug specifically, but I know Nigel Irens has designed at least one open cruising boat with a schooner rig and standing lugsails. I can't for the life of me remember the name of the deisgn, but it was intended for use by parties of teenage schoolchildren. I raced against one a few years ago when I crewed on a friend's boat in the Three Rivers Race. As I recall she did ok, although that may have been due to a somewhat generous handicap. Then again, just finishing the course of the Three Rivers in under 24 hours is a decent achievement.

          Regards,

          Dan Burrill

        • gefinn_othni
          as has been stated, i don t know if i d want to deal with an actual dipping lug in a blow. i think a balanced lug or standing lug would be great for cruising,
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 28 7:44 AM
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            as has been stated, i don't know if i'd want to deal with an actual dipping lug in a blow. i think a balanced lug or standing lug would be great for cruising, especially in a yawl set up, though.
          • Wayne Gilham
            Phil also designed a few cruisers with his modifications of a Chinese Junk rig -- of this, there ARE several proponents. Most recent excellent article on
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 28 10:10 AM
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              Phil also designed a few cruisers with his modifications of a "Chinese Junk" rig -- of this, there ARE several proponents.

               

              Most recent excellent article on Junk Rigs is by Annie Hill in this month's "Good Old Boat" ( Mar/Apr 2014, on your news-stand right now, if you can find it!) about "Building a Junk Rig" to outfit an older 26' flush-deck fiberglass sloop -- Annie has sailed the world on her previous Jay Benford-designed 34' plywood junk-rigged dory "Badger", and has written TWO great books about the many-year adventure: "Voyaging on a Small Income", and "Brazil & Beyond" -- the first inspired me enough to also join the ranks of long-distance cruisers (for a year, anyway - till eldercare kicked in...) though we did not choose to do it as modestly/cheaply as Annie did.  Her books and current article are FULL of details on why such alternative rigs are really worth considering over the all-too-prevalent marconi rigs...

               

              Wayne Gilham

              FlowDesign Marine Surveys

              Tacoma WA

               

              From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of owlnmole@...
              Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 1:27 AM
              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [bolger] Dipping lug as a cruising rig

               

               

              All, a random question...  Other than Phil and Susanne, are there any other modern proponents of the dipping lug as a cruising or motorsailing rig?  Cheers, Matthew

            • jwolczanski
              I have to do a fair bit of tacking (usually) to get out into open water, but the dipping lug has some appeal, such as a lot of power down low. As for tacking,
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 28 3:24 PM
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                I have to do a fair bit of tacking (usually) to get out into open water, but the dipping lug has some appeal, such as a lot of power down low.  As for tacking, I've watched this video about 100 times - not sure I've fully digested exactly what is happening.

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Gp71JdmPs

                Jerry
                Montgomery 23 cutter
                out of Kinsale VA
              • Connor, Patrick
                As a cruising rig there is a lot to be said for the balanced standing lug. Nigel Oren s has actually designed several boats using the rig. It has a lot of
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 2, 2014
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                  As a cruising rig there is a lot to be said for the balanced standing lug. Nigel Oren's has actually designed several boats using the rig. It has a lot of virtues: a lot of drive without a lot of heeling moment, minimal standing rigging, and depending on sheeting arrangements minimal string pulling. You will sacrifice some windward ability compared to a tuned Marconi rig but if you have a motor no big. It is a fast rig across or off the wind with as good or better handling than a Marconi with less heeling. 

                  Sent from my iPhone

                  On Feb 28, 2014, at 6:25 PM, "jerrywolczanski@..." <jerrywolczanski@...> wrote:

                   

                  I have to do a fair bit of tacking (usually) to get out into open water, but the dipping lug has some appeal, such as a lot of power down low.  As for tacking, I've watched this video about 100 times - not sure I've fully digested exactly what is happening.

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Gp71JdmPs

                  Jerry
                  Montgomery 23 cutter
                  out of Kinsale VA

                • dir_cobb
                  I believe Phil only ever promoted the dipping lug as a rig for long distance cruising and/or for vessels with no inhibitions about using their engines . I
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 4, 2014
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                    I believe Phil only ever promoted the dipping lug as a rig for long distance cruising and/or "for vessels with no inhibitions about using their engines".I have seriously considered the rig both on Seabird 86 and on the Fast Motorsailer. Realistically I think it has a lot going for it. It is not the rig for someone who wants to go day sailing on a small lake or navigating an intricate course among islands.However if you are planning on setting a course and sailing it for days on end following trade winds (as one would if one did) it probably makes a lot more sense than more complicated rigs.As one reads up on the above craft as well as Ataraxia, one gets a feel for the sort of sailing we are talking about. This is the sort of rig which will not be dismasted by the loss of a stay or failure of a stay terminal.If you did lose a mast you could jury rig one if at all close to anywhere. Sails are equally possible to improvise.I am seriously tempted to try it in a 23' size just because nobody has (recently). Edgar March's book is full of pictures of working boats of all sizes thus rigged in the UK and elsewhere so it definitely did work fine before engines came on the scene and killed working sail while handicapping killed all but Marconi rigs in the yachting scene.David.
                  • Kent
                    I ve seen this video, and I m also unsure exactly what s going on. But I think it should be possible to dip the sail by pulling on lines from the cockpit, if
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 4, 2014
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                      I've seen this video, and I'm also unsure exactly what's going on. But
                      I think it should be possible to dip the sail by pulling on lines from
                      the cockpit, if the rig isn't huge. For instance, you could rig two
                      lines to the forward end of the yard, like jib sheets. By pulling on
                      these, you should be able to move the yard back and across across from
                      one side of the mast to the other.

                      If the sail's tack is held by a downhaul near the mast, standing
                      lug-style, it can be left in place; but dipping lugs usually tack the
                      sail somewhere further outboard. In that case, you'll need another
                      two-lines arrangement to move it. That may be difficult to rig because
                      of friction or fouling problems around the mast. It all seems possible,
                      although with all these extra lines, the rig is losing the simplicity
                      that made it so attractive in the first place. And I wonder if it will
                      work for jibing, or might the wind be strong enough to hold the sail
                      forward?

                      -- Kent




                      On 2/28/2014 5:24 PM, jerrywolczanski@... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > I have to do a fair bit of tacking (usually) to get out into open water,
                      > but the dipping lug has some appeal, such as a lot of power down low.
                      > As for tacking, I've watched this video about 100 times - not sure I've
                      > fully digested exactly what is happening.
                      >
                      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Gp71JdmPs
                      >
                      > Jerry
                      > Montgomery 23 cutter
                      > out of Kinsale VA
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • rjtrane
                      I built one of my 17 Florida Bay Hens with a lug rig - a version of the Mud Hen. I liked it for what it is. (I don t have any photos handy, but will post if I
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 5, 2014
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                        I built one of my 17' Florida Bay Hens with a lug rig - a version of the Mud Hen. I liked it for what it is. (I don't have any photos handy, but will post if I find one.)

                        I liked Bolger's sprit rigs - I built a Black Skimmer and cruised south Florida, the Keys and a trip to the Bahamas. I have also used the wishbone rig on my Marsh Hen. I find the wishbone to be superior to both the sprit and the lug for sailing performance.

                        If I were looking for a long-distance rig, I would seriously consider unstayed masts (2), each with a wishbone. You cannot beat this rig for easy sail handling (tacking and gybing) and for downwind sailing.
                      • cluttonfred
                        I was actually asking with just that type of use in mind, a weekend cruiser/occasional liveaboard but very much a motorsailer with an inboard diesel engine
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 6, 2014
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                          I was actually asking with just that type of use in mind, a weekend cruiser/occasional liveaboard but very much a motorsailer with an inboard diesel engine which would only use the sails when conditions are right and the stars are aligned.  The specific application I had in mind--not Bolger but for those who are intereste--are the Atkin flat-bottom sloops Twilight or Little Bear.  I have ordered plans for both from Pat Atkin.  In the end, I would probably be better off building either as designed, but I blame PCB for the urge to tinker and simplify.  Cheers, Matthew

                          ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <dir_cobb@...> wrote :
                          I believe Phil only ever promoted the dipping lug as a rig for long distance cruising and/or "for vessels with no inhibitions about using their engines."
                        • John Kohnen
                          The video shows the system used by present-day Beer Luggers in the UK. The tack stays put. There are two sheets. The lazy sheet leads forward around the luff
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 6, 2014
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                            The video shows the system used by present-day Beer Luggers in the UK. The
                            tack stays put. There are two sheets. The "lazy" sheet leads forward
                            around the luff of the sail. To tack you release the working sheet and
                            pull like the dickens on the lazy sheet, which sort of turns the sail
                            inside out in front of the mast, and then becomes the new working sheet.
                            You need a fairly high-peaked yard and a loose parrel for it to work.

                            On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 14:42:32 -0800, Kent wrote:

                            > I've seen this video, and I'm also unsure exactly what's going on. But
                            > I think it should be possible to dip the sail by pulling on lines from
                            > the cockpit, if the rig isn't huge. For instance, you could rig two
                            > lines to the forward end of the yard, like jib sheets. By pulling on
                            > these, you should be able to move the yard back and across across from
                            > one side of the mast to the other.
                            > ...
                            >>
                            >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Gp71JdmPs

                            --
                            John (jkohnen@...)
                            Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you get a lot of
                            scum on the top. (Edward Abbey)
                          • paul.glassen
                            About forty years ago I had a sail on an Atkins sharpie like Twilight. It had originally been a sloop about the length of Twilight but after sailing it for a
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 6, 2014
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                              About forty years ago I had a sail on an Atkins sharpie like Twilight.  It had originally been a sloop about the length of Twilight but after sailing it for a few years, the owner had added three feet to the stern, a mizzen mast to make her a ketch and a wheel helm.  We were sailing out of Rowayton, on the Five Mile River, home of John Atkin, if I recall correctly.   Admittedly, it was a mild day on Long Island Sound, but as soon as we were confidently on course, we both went below and let the ship look after herself.  Delightful. 

                              I'd be awfully careful about different rigs on a centre board boat.  Balance can be critical.  Long keels are much more forgiving.

                            • cluttonfred
                              Thanks, Paul, and I m sure your right. More than likely if I build Twilight or Little Bear I will just make a few minor personalizations but leave the rig as
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 8, 2014
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                                Thanks, Paul, and I'm sure your right.  More than likely if I build Twilight or Little Bear I will just make a few minor personalizations but leave the rig as is.  Still, it's fun to think about, "What if...?"  ;-)
                              • c.ruzer
                                François Vivier http://www.vivierboats.com/ offers dipping lug rig alternatives https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/DoryBoat/conversations/topics/498 for many
                                Message 15 of 21 , Mar 13, 2014
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                                  François Vivier offers dipping lug rig alternatives for many of his designs. Roger Barnes, President of the Dinghy Cruising Association, sails an Ilur as designed by Vivier. It is rigged with a traditional Brittany style of no-dip dipping lugsail where the sail is tacked ahead of the mast, but not by much, the luff is perpendicular rather than sloping aft, and the yard also has little slope if any, it being more or less horizontal.


                                  fair winds


                                  Dipping Lugsail Downwind...

                                  "The only time the rig gave us a fright was once when we tried to get more power running before the wind by taking the tack off the stemhead and guying it out to one side like a squaresail..." - PCB, Little Superior, FS, Chap 19, p111




                                  http://www.vivierboats.com/

                                  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/DoryBoat/conversations/topics/498

                                  http://www.rogerbarnes.org.uk/rogerbarnes.org.uk/Welcome.html

                                  http://www.vivierboats.com/html/stock_sail_and_oar.html

                                  http://duckworksbbs.com/plans/vivier/index.htm

                                  http://tinyurl.com/q2lv4y7





                                • c.ruzer
                                  Most recent excellent article on Junk Rigs is by Annie Hill in this month s Good Old Boat ( Mar/Apr 2014, on your news-stand right now, if you can find
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Mar 13, 2014
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                                    "Most recent excellent article on Junk Rigs is by Annie Hill in this month's "Good Old Boat" ( Mar/Apr 2014, on your news-stand right now, if you can find it!)"


                                    Not findable, but blogged here.


                                    "Wouldst thou,"—so the helmsman answered,

                                    "Learn the secret of the sea?"

                                    "Only those who brave its dangers

                                    "Comprehend its mystery!"

                                    — Longfellow, The Secret of the Sea



                                    ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <wgilham@...> wrote :

                                    Phil also designed a few cruisers with his modifications of a "Chinese Junk" rig -- of this, there ARE several proponents.

                                    Most recent excellent article on Junk Rigs is by Annie Hill in this month's "Good Old Boat"

                                  • c.ruzer
                                    An oldie but goldie Dip n diesel http://www.mbla.co.uk/guide-me.htm cruzer. Roger Barnes book
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Mar 14, 2014
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                                      An oldie but goldie Dip 'n' diesel cruzer.

                                      Roger Barnes' book 'n' boat

                                      More Vivier in Classic Boat 

                                      ha

                                      "The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it
                                      is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of
                                      mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible" - Bertrand Russell


                                      http://www.mbla.co.uk/guide-me.htm

                                      http://books.google.com.au/books?id=acUTAgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

                                      http://www.classicboat.co.uk/articles/vivier-encore-2-roger-barnes-appraises-the-ilur-design/

                                      http://www.classicboat.co.uk/articles/vivier-encore-1-three-more-vivier-designs/

                                      http://www.classicboat.co.uk/articles/vivier-encore-3-francois-replies-to-john-perrymans-comments/



                                    • c.ruzer
                                      I was looking at your Summer Hen in Photos again Mr Trane, and the hull strikes me as being similar to some of the luggers from along the coast of Brittany -
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Mar 14, 2014
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                                        I was looking at your Summer Hen in Photos again Mr Trane, and the hull strikes me as being similar to some of the luggers from along the coast of Brittany - Normandy, perhaps Eqihen?
                                      • c.ruzer
                                        https://archive.org/stream/seafisheriesthei00hrrich/#page/294/mode/2up https://archive.org/stream/seafisheriesthei00hrrich/#page/294/mode/2up
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Mar 14, 2014
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                                        • c.ruzer
                                          Mathew see: MAIB V09 N16 Alaskan One-man Trawler 1/1/1990 DESIGN #446 On Page 42 of the old Common Sense Complex Boats catalogue of Bolger Designs
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Mar 15, 2014
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                                          Mathew see:


                                          MAIB V09  N16  Alaskan One-man Trawler  1/1/1990 DESIGN #446


                                          On Page 42 of the old Common Sense Complex Boats catalogue of Bolger Designs ('complex' term was used to differentiate from 'instant' and as such covers a rather wide range) may be found as a not particularly complex looking design, a bit of cold molding involved, that may be ideal for your purpose. The design there was called: ONE-MAN-TRAWLER


                                          1 or 2 person liveaboard; trailerable; comfortable, handy; withstood adverse conditions; 4 blueprints with full lines, offsets, interior, etc. 25'6"x7'9"x2'3", Disp9000lbs, cold molded bow and bilges. Small Diesel 28-38hp plus Dipping Lugsail. Sail for breakdown use and outside passages. 1 ton fish box will fit motorcycle or whatever, and 1 ton ballast (sand rock?) left at water edge before highway trailering. Designed and built for Bay of Alaska. Trailered seasonally Montana to Puget Sound then run up the inland passage to Alaska. Check it out - lovely dipping lug - ask Susanne.

                                        • c.ruzer
                                          For Alaskan One-man Trawler I wrote 1 ton ballast. Strike that. Insert 1/2 ton inside ballast. cheers
                                          Message 21 of 21 , Mar 15, 2014
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                                            For Alaskan One-man Trawler I wrote 1 ton ballast. Strike that. Insert 1/2 ton inside ballast.


                                            cheers

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