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Sharpie sprit-boom leg-o'-mutton sail twist control

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  • c.ruzer
    How about those traditional sharpie simple but sophisticated sprit-boomed leg-o -mutton rigs ? I knew the trick to adjust draft in the sail, make it fuller in
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 3, 2014
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      How about those traditional sharpie "simple but sophisticated sprit-boomed leg-o'-mutton rigs"? I knew the trick to adjust draft in the sail, make it fuller in light wind for more power or flatten it when the wind gets up to de-power it by working the snotter on the sprit-boom. I've read about that just about evrywhere these sails are written of too. The benefits from being a self-vanging sail, done so simply, and eliminating twist without the bother of a mult-part kicker on the boom is often mentioned too.

       

      But of course there's going to be a little bit of give and stretch here and there in the rig, and the usual prescription is to tension the snotter as necessary to minimise the twist - but there's always still going to be some give - and you might be flattening the sail more than you want for best performance. So what to do? Well it's so easy and elegant, and if I've read or heard of it I've never taken it in before:



      "If we rig the snotter so that its height on the mast can be changed while underway, sail twist can be adjusted (ie. dialed in or dialed out). This simple adjustment can increase speed and dampen rhythmic downwind rolling."



      Your expensively cut modern bermudan mainsail and rig uses all those dollars and complicated highly  tensioned mechanisms to adjust twist, but for the sharpie just use any simple way to alter the height of the snotter on the mast. Brilliant! I look forward to trying it.


      Twist, the right amount at the right time is good. The windspeed and underway the apparent wind angle too increase significantly with height above water. A sail that's twisted right with the head falling off just so presents an appropriately changing angle of attack to the changing wind angle and develops more power, is more efficient. When running minimise the twist to minimise oscilating vortices, no death rolls, and efficient.


      Is this trick of altering the snotter height mentioned in 103 Small Boat Rigs?  That's a book I'm putting off getting - some say the best one (save the best till last;). I've not seen PCB or Chapelle write about this. In one of his books Dynamite comments on the low angle of a sprit-boom as drawn saying it would be better at tensioning the foot if it bisected the clew angle. He was thinking only of how much more he could flatten the sail with less effort applied to tensioning the snotter and said he'd mention it to PCB. I think all those 59sqft LOM sails afterward are shown with more of the sprit-boom angle Dynamite was after.


      Anyway there's a few more good sharpie sail tips here:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bolger/files/Shoal%20Draft%20Sharpies%2C%20and%20Bolger%20on%20lugsail%20peak%20halyards/

    • Chief Redelk
      I ve recently experimented with a FLAT cut Leg Of Mutton Sprit boomed Sail..This was my FIRST flat cut sail but I had read that someone was doing it so I
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 3, 2014
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        I've recently experimented with a FLAT cut Leg Of Mutton Sprit boomed
        Sail..This was my FIRST flat cut sail but I had read that someone was
        doing it so I wanted to give it a try...

        This is what I learned...First,, the wind was about 10 to 15 miles per
        hour and my snotter is adjustable from the cockpit.. I always do that
        no matter on all my boats. So I was confident with the adjustment.

        The boat sailed crappy and would not point well at all. In fact I was
        being blown lee so I tossed out an anchor and played with the rigging.

        First. I thought it was the lee Board so I swung it back and forth but
        no sail would not pull..

        From my experience in Sprit Sails with darts I felt the camber was
        right if not on the TO much side so I tightened the sail some then
        some more and finally flat. NOPE. Did not work..

        Finally I decided to let TO MUCH sail out and see what happens. The
        sail began to pull..

        I was off the wind and zooming along at a nice heel. The boat was
        surprisingly active and fun.

        Then I went down wind right up into a cove came about into a head wind
        and began to tack out.

        On each tack the boat moved well giving me the illusion I was tacking
        back into the open waters BUT I realized I was NOT making good head
        way. In fact I kept arriving almost at the exact spot on the shore
        line with each tack so I realized something was amiss and I tossed out
        the anchor again and started playing with the rigging..

        Lee Board swung aft did not work so I swung it forward yet nothing was working..

        Then I remembered how I had to let out TO MUCH slack on the snotter to
        get it moving so I said, WHY NOT try that..

        Then I let out a LOT more camber than I would normally consider and
        pulled the sheet in line with the center line of the boat and that did
        the trick..

        She pointed close to the wind and when I once again hit the open lake
        she heeled over steeply and sailed like a dream. In fact I was moving
        faster now with all that big camber than before..

        Here, all this time I had always had to TIGHTEN my sprit sail to point
        into a stiff wind but now with the flat cut sail I was sailing
        windward with a VERY Loose Snotter....

        The trick to point into the wind on this flat cut LOM seems to be to
        have a LOOSE sail creating lots of camber and the boom sheeted near
        the center line..

        I was on the far side of the lake when the wind dropped late in the
        evening like it does most of the time on this lake.. I moved forward
        so the boat sit on the rocker and sailed her flat. The sail was
        cleated off and the rudder tied off. The boat moved slowly along but
        very predictable. Then I made a turn for the landing with a light tail
        wind.. The boat seemed to be bogged down and it was getting late in
        the evening so I sat on the same side as the sail heeling the boat as
        far over as was safe.. The light tail wind filled that big ole loose
        sail and we moved nicely along reaching the distant shore long before
        the sun disappeared..

        What I liked about the Flat Cut sail is it's FAST and EASY to make.
        Sailing it was DIFFERENT but once I caught on it worked great..

        I am not sure IF I will continue to use Flat triangle sails or not but
        I did learn they can be made to work if you fly the snotter as loose
        as you can given the wind conditions..

        Good night, Chief..

        On 1/4/14, c.ruzer@... <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > How about those traditional sharpie "simple but sophisticated sprit-boomed
        > leg-o'-mutton rigs"? I knew the trick to adjust draft in the sail, make it
        > fuller in light wind for more power or flatten it when the wind gets up to
        > de-power it by working the snotter on the sprit-boom. I've read about that
        > just about evrywhere these sails are written of too. The benefits from being
        > a self-vanging sail, done so simply, and eliminating twist without the
        > bother of a mult-part kicker on the boom is often mentioned too.
        >
        > But of course there's going to be a little bit of give and stretch here and
        > there in the rig, and the usual prescription is to tension the snotter as
        > necessary to minimise the twist - but there's always still going to be some
        > give - and you might be flattening the sail more than you want for best
        > performance. So what to do? Well it's so easy and elegant, and if I've read
        > or heard of it I've never taken it in before:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > "If we rig the snotter so that its height on the mast can be changed while
        > underway, sail twist can be adjusted (ie. dialed in or dialed out). This
        > simple adjustment can increase speed and dampen rhythmic downwind rolling."
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your expensively cut modern bermudan mainsail and rig uses all those
        > dollars and complicated highly tensioned mechanisms to adjust twist, but
        > for the sharpie just use any simple way to alter the height of the snotter
        > on the mast. Brilliant! I look forward to trying it.
        >
        >
        > Twist, the right amount at the right time is good. The windspeed and
        > underway the apparent wind angle too increase significantly with height
        > above water. A sail that's twisted right with the head falling off just so
        > presents an appropriately changing angle of attack to the changing wind
        > angle and develops more power, is more efficient. When running minimise the
        > twist to minimise oscilating vortices, no death rolls, and efficient.
        >
        >
        > Is this trick of altering the snotter height mentioned in 103 Small Boat
        > Rigs? That's a book I'm putting off getting - some say the best one (save
        > the best till last;). I've not seen PCB or Chapelle write about this. In one
        > of his books Dynamite comments on the low angle of a sprit-boom as drawn
        > saying it would be better at tensioning the foot if it bisected the clew
        > angle. He was thinking only of how much more he could flatten the sail with
        > less effort applied to tensioning the snotter and said he'd mention it to
        > PCB. I think all those 59sqft LOM sails afterward are shown with more of the
        > sprit-boom angle Dynamite was after.
        >
        >
        > Anyway there's a few more good sharpie sail tips here:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bolger/files/Shoal%20Draft%20Sharpies%2C%20and%20Bolger%20on%20lugsail%20peak%20halyards/
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bolger/files/Shoal%20Draft%20Sharpies%2C%20and%20Bolger%20on%20lugsail%20peak%20halyards/
        >
      • oneillparker
        No, the trick of moving the snotter up and down the mast is not mentioned in 103 Small Boat Rigs . I wrote a letter to PCB years ago describing my mods to one
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 4, 2014
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          No, the trick of moving the snotter up and down the mast is not mentioned in 103 Small Boat Rigs

          .

          I wrote a letter to PCB years ago describing my mods to one of his Cartoppers. It was a two snotter system which entailed one traditional snotter but set much higher up on the mast than normal, combined with a second downhaul snotter, Both snotters were rigged back to the cockpit for easy manipulating.


          The system worked great, with the drawback that adjusting one snotter necessarily changed the other, so getting exactly the sail shape change you wanted always entailed manipulating both snotters. Also, sprit boom rigs work best when the entire rig, mast and all, is allowed to rotate. If the mast can rotate it allows the snotter/sprit geometry, and thus snotter tention, to remain constant for all sheet positions. Running the controls aft interferes with mast rotation. 


          PCB replied quickly to the letter, but did not seem, as I recall, impressed with the mod. It is, admittedly, a complication to an otherwise very simple rig.


          John O'Neill

           
        • harryjak
          John Are you still in or around the SF Delta HJ No, the trick of moving the snotter up and down the mast is not mentioned in 103
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 4, 2014
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            John

            Are you still in or around the SF Delta

            HJ

            No, the trick of moving the snotter up and down the mast is not mentioned in 103
            > Small Boat Rigs
            > .
            > I wrote a letter to PCB years ago describing my mods to one of his Cartoppers. It
            > was a two snotter system which entailed one traditional snotter but set much
            > higher up on the mast than normal, combined with a second downhaul snotter, Both
            > snotters were rigged back to the cockpit for easy manipulating.
            >
            >
            > The system worked great, with the drawback that adjusting one snotter necessarily
            > changed the other, so getting exactly the sail shape change you wanted always
            > entailed manipulating both snotters. Also, sprit boom rigs work best when the
            > entire rig, mast and all, is allowed to rotate. If the mast can rotate it allows
            > the snotter/sprit geometry, and thus snotter tention, to remain constant for all
            > sheet positions. Running the controls aft interferes with mast rotation.
            >
            >
            > PCB replied quickly to the letter, but did not seem, as I recall, impressed with
            > the mod. It is, admittedly, a complication to an otherwise very simple rig.
            >
            >
            > John O'Neill
            >
            >
          • mason smith
            Anent this subject of flat vs shaped sails I have had some interesting experiences. First with respect to lug sails. According to my understanding, the wisdom
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 5, 2014
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              Anent this subject of flat vs shaped sails I have had some interesting experiences. First with respect to lug sails. According to my understanding, the wisdom around WoodenBoat was that lug sails, as for the Nutshell Pram, should be flat, and, according to my understanding, Robin Lincoln made them flat for the Nutshells. When I rigged my earliest Goodboats for sailing, I had Robin make standing lugsails for me. They were, I believe, utterly flat. When I needed sails sooner than Robin could supply them, I got some from Douglas Fowler, who put about 8 inches of draft in my approximately 72 sq. ft. sails. In identical boats and crews, they literally sailed circles around the flat sails.

               

              In sailing my Micro, with sprit-boomed leg-o’mutton sails, as in sailing my Goodboats with their standing lugs, I find that lots of draft is usually good, even in surprisingly strong winds, so I set the snotter just hard enough to keep the luff full. These sails reshape the wind even in their lower parts, so that they themselves alter the apparent wind greatly, at the luff. There’s more forward vector in the resultant force and less heeling moment. As for sheeting, I have never found a set of conditions where the Micro likes to be sheeted anywhere near the centerline.

               

              PCB has pointed out how much the cut of the sails affects the performance of 4-sided sails. How do you tell? I have wondered whether the Whalewatcher I built for Pat Connor had the benefit of really well-cut sails. They are pretty, and that boat sails very well, but how well cut are the sails, and how well could it sail? There’s only the one example.

               

              I have some experience in sailing the decked sailing canoes of the late 19th century, especially Rushton Vespers. In them, the various spars of the antique bat-wing or “modified Bailey rig” are stiff. They are apparently intended to make the sails as flat as possible. Those old boats do sail, and are great fun to sail, but it would be charming to see what they would do with airfoils in place of inclined planes for sails.

               

              Can’t resist a comment on boomless loose-footed sails. I have had two Drascombe Luggers, which sport this kind of sails in gunther yawls and have a great reputation. On both of them I was so annoyed by bad, baggy sail shape off the wind that I rigged sprit-booms, for safety and performance. Spritbooms are not really convenient on gunthers but I rigged them and they were worth the inconvenience. On the second one, I laminated a curved sprit-boom that I called a half-wishbone. Instead of a snotter it was fastened to the mast with a little connector and a vestige of the other half of the wishbone, if you can picture that. This juncture wrapped around the front of the mast and was held by a lashing that went around the after side of the mast, as on a windsurfer. The draft was controlled by an outhaul near the clew, easily reached at the helm. So rigged, with decent sail shape on reaches and runs, my Lugger easily beat the fleet at the North American Drascombe meet and in match races against all comers including the much longer Longboats. I was given the trophy somewhat reluctantly.

               

              That don’t prove anything about the flat vs cut sails argument but I would say that the shape a flat sail takes up when the snotter is loose is nowhere near optimal. It’ll sail, agreed, but it will not yield the “supplementary clean gain” that a well-cut sail will. I don’t consider good sail shape a luxury on a sailboat, and even if I made my own sails out of Tyvek, I’d build shape into them, and rather more than less, for the kinds of slowish, smallish boats I sail.

               

              From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chief Redelk It’ll Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2014 2:33 AM
              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [bolger] Sharpie sprit-boom leg-o'-mutton sail twist control

               

               

              I've recently experimented with a FLAT cut Leg Of Mutton Sprit boomed
              Sail..This was my FIRST flat cut sail but I had read that someone was
              doing it so I wanted to give it a try...

              This is what I learned...First,, the wind was about 10 to 15 miles per
              hour and my snotter is adjustable from the cockpit.. I always do that
              no matter on all my boats. So I was confident with the adjustment.

              The boat sailed crappy and would not point well at all. In fact I was
              being blown lee so I tossed out an anchor and played with the rigging.

              First. I thought it was the lee Board so I swung it back and forth but
              no sail would not p
              From my experience in Sprit Sails with darts I felt the camber was
              right if not on the TO much side so I tightened the sail some then
              some more and finally flat. NOPE. Did not work..

              Finally I decided to let TO MUCH sail out and see what happens. The
              sail began to pull..

              I was off the wind and zooming along at a nice heel. The boat was
              surprisingly active and fun.

              Then I went down wind right up into a cove came about into a head wind
              and began to tack out.

              On each tack the boat moved well giving me the illusion I was tacking
              back into the open waters BUT I realized I was NOT making good head
              way. In fact I kept arriving almost at the exact spot on the shore
              line with each tack so I realized something was amiss and I tossed out
              the anchor again and started playing with the rigging..

              Lee Board swung aft did not work so I swung it forward yet nothing was working..

              Then I remembered how I had to let out TO MUCH slack on the snotter to
              get it moving so I said, WHY NOT try that..

              Then I let out a LOT more camber than I would normally consider and
              pulled the sheet in line with the center line of the boat and that did
              the trick..

              She pointed close to the wind and when I once again hit the open lake
              she heeled over steeply and sailed like a dream. In fact I was moving
              faster now with all that big camber than before..

              Here, all this time I had always had to TIGHTEN my sprit sail to point
              into a stiff wind but now with the flat cut sail I was sailing
              windward with a VERY Loose Snotter....

              The trick to point into the wind on this flat cut LOM seems to be to
              have a LOOSE sail creating lots of camber and the boom sheeted near
              the center line..

              I was on the far side of the lake when the wind dropped late in the
              evening like it does most of the time on this lake.. I moved forward
              so the boat sit on the rocker and sailed her flat. The sail was
              cleated off and the rudder tied off. The boat moved slowly along but
              very predictable. Then I made a turn for the landing with a light tail
              wind.. The boat seemed to be bogged down and it was getting late in
              the evening so I sat on the same side as the sail heeling the boat as
              far over as was safe.. The light tail wind filled that big ole loose
              sail and we moved nicely along reaching the distant shore long before
              the sun disappeared..

              What I liked about the Flat Cut sail is it's FAST and EASY to make.
              Sailing it was DIFFERENT but once I caught on it worked great..

              I am not sure IF I will continue to use Flat triangle sails or not but
              I did learn they can be made to work if you fly the snotter as loose
              as you can given the wind conditions..

              Good night, Chief..

              On 1/4/14, c.ruzer@... <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > How about those traditional sharpie "simple but sophisticated sprit-boomed
              > leg-o'-mutton rigs"? I knew the trick to adjust draft in the sail, make it
              > fuller in light wind for more power or flatten it when the wind gets up to
              > de-power it by working the snotter on the sprit-boom. I've read about that
              > just about evrywhere these sails are written of too. The benefits from being
              > a self-vanging sail, done so simply, and eliminating twist without the
              > bother of a mult-part kicker on the boom is often mentioned too.
              >
              > But of course there's going to be a little bit of give and stretch here and
              > there in the rig, and the usual prescription is to tension the snotter as
              > necessary to minimise the twist - but there's always still going to be some
              > give - and you might be flattening the sail more than you want for best
              > performance. So what to do? Well it's so easy and elegant, and if I've read
              > or heard of it I've never taken it in before:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > "If we rig the snotter so that its height on the mast can be changed while
              > underway, sail twist can be adjusted (ie. dialed in or dialed out). This
              > simple adjustment can increase speed and dampen rhythmic downwind rolling."
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Your expensively cut modern bermudan mainsail and rig uses all those
              > dollars and complicated highly tensioned mechanisms to adjust twist, but
              > for the sharpie just use any simple way to alter the height of the snotter
              > on the mast. Brilliant! I look forward to trying it.
              >
              >
              > Twist, the right amount at the right time is good. The windspeed and
              > underway the apparent wind angle too increase significantly with height
              > above water. A sail that's twisted right with the head falling off just so
              > presents an appropriately changing angle of attack to the changing wind
              > angle and develops more power, is more efficient. When running minimise the
              > twist to minimise oscilating vortices, no death rolls, and efficient.
              >
              >
              > Is this trick of altering the snotter height mentioned in 103 Small Boat
              > Rigs? That's a book I'm putting off getting - some say the best one (save
              > the best till last;). I've not seen PCB or Chapelle write about this. In one
              > of his books Dynamite comments on the low angle of a sprit-boom as drawn
              > saying it would be better at tensioning the foot if it bisected the clew
              > angle. He was thinking only of how much more he could flatten the sail with
              > less effort applied to tensioning the snotter and said he'd mention it to
              > PCB. I think all those 59sqft LOM sails afterward are shown with more of the
              > sprit-boom angle Dynamite was after.
              >
              >
              > Anyway there's a few more good sharpie sail tips here:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bolger/files/Shoal%20Draft%20Sharpies%2C%20and%20Bolger%20on%20lugsail%20peak%20halyards/
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bolger/files/Shoal%20Draft%20Sharpies%2C%20and%20Bolger%20on%20lugsail%20peak%20halyards/
              >

            • Connor, Patrick
              Mason the sails are made by Manchester and are very well made. The main has a LOT of shape, but is designed by the placement of the reef cringles to
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 5, 2014
              • 0 Attachment
                Mason the sails are made by Manchester and are very well made. The main has a LOT of shape, but is designed by the placement of the reef cringles to increasingly flatten the sail as reefs (3) are taken in. The third reef produces an almost flat sail. Phil commented favorably on that sail when he sailed in her. As you know he felt strongly most four sided sails these days are cut too flat. For a dinghy, with its size and somewhat limited stability I would assume you would want a somewhat flatter sail so as to better spill the wind. 

                The WW mizzen sail is a four-sided sail with a short gaff and a sprit boom. It is cut completely flat. 

                Sent from my iPhone

                On Jan 5, 2014, at 10:41 AM, "mason smith" <masonsmith@...> wrote:

                 

                Anent this subject of flat vs shaped sails I have had some interesting experiences. First with respect to lug sails. According to my understanding, the wisdom around WoodenBoat was that lug sails, as for the Nutshell Pram, should be flat, and, according to my understanding, Robin Lincoln made them flat for the Nutshells. When I rigged my earliest Goodboats for sailing, I had Robin make standing lugsails for me. They were, I believe, utterly flat. When I needed sails sooner than Robin could supply them, I got some from Douglas Fowler, who put about 8 inches of draft in my approximately 72 sq. ft. sails. In identical boats and crews, they literally sailed circles around the flat sails.

                 

                In sailing my Micro, with sprit-boomed leg-o’mutton sails, as in sailing my Goodboats with their standing lugs, I find that lots of draft is usually good, even in surprisingly strong winds, so I set the snotter just hard enough to keep the luff full. These sails reshape the wind even in their lower parts, so that they themselves alter the apparent wind greatly, at the luff. There’s more forward vector in the resultant force and less heeling moment. As for sheeting, I have never found a set of conditions where the Micro likes to be sheeted anywhere near the centerline.

                 

                PCB has pointed out how much the cut of the sails affects the performance of 4-sided sails. How do you tell? I have wondered whether the Whalewatcher I built for Pat Connor had the benefit of really well-cut sails. They are pretty, and that boat sails very well, but how well cut are the sails, and how well could it sail? There’s only the one example.

                 

                I have some experience in sailing the decked sailing canoes of the late 19th century, especially Rushton Vespers. In them, the various spars of the antique bat-wing or “modified Bailey rig” are stiff. They are apparently intended to make the sails as flat as possible. Those old boats do sail, and are great fun to sail, but it would be charming to see what they would do with airfoils in place of inclined planes for sails.

                 

                Can’t resist a comment on boomless loose-footed sails. I have had two Drascombe Luggers, which sport this kind of sails in gunther yawls and have a great reputation. On both of them I was so annoyed by bad, baggy sail shape off the wind that I rigged sprit-booms, for safety and performance. Spritbooms are not really convenient on gunthers but I rigged them and they were worth the inconvenience. On the second one, I laminated a curved sprit-boom that I called a half-wishbone. Instead of a snotter it was fastened to the mast with a little connector and a vestige of the other half of the wishbone, if you can picture that. This juncture wrapped around the front of the mast and was held by a lashing that went around the after side of the mast, as on a windsurfer. The draft was controlled by an outhaul near the clew, easily reached at the helm. So rigged, with decent sail shape on reaches and runs, my Lugger easily beat the fleet at the North American Drascombe meet and in match races against all comers including the much longer Longboats. I was given the trophy somewhat reluctantly.

                 

                That don’t prove anything about the flat vs cut sails argument but I would say that the shape a flat sail takes up when the snotter is loose is nowhere near optimal. It’ll sail, agreed, but it will not yield the “supplementary clean gain” that a well-cut sail will. I don’t consider good sail shape a luxury on a sailboat, and even if I made my own sails out of Tyvek, I’d build shape into them, and rather more than less, for the kinds of slowish, smallish boats I sail.

                 

                From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chief Redelk It’ll Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2014 2:33 AM
                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [bolger] Sharpie sprit-boom leg-o'-mutton sail twist control

                 

                 

                I've recently experimented with a FLAT cut Leg Of Mutton Sprit boomed
                Sail..This was my FIRST flat cut sail but I had read that someone was
                doing it so I wanted to give it a try...

                This is what I learned...First,, the wind was about 10 to 15 miles per
                hour and my snotter is adjustable from the cockpit.. I always do that
                no matter on all my boats. So I was confident with the adjustment.

                The boat sailed crappy and would not point well at all. In fact I was
                being blown lee so I tossed out an anchor and played with the rigging.

                First. I thought it was the lee Board so I swung it back and forth but
                no sail would not p
                From my experience in Sprit Sails with darts I felt the camber was
                right if not on the TO much side so I tightened the sail some then
                some more and finally flat. NOPE. Did not work..

                Finally I decided to let TO MUCH sail out and see what happens. The
                sail began to pull..

                I was off the wind and zooming along at a nice heel. The boat was
                surprisingly active and fun.

                Then I went down wind right up into a cove came about into a head wind
                and began to tack out.

                On each tack the boat moved well giving me the illusion I was tacking
                back into the open waters BUT I realized I was NOT making good head
                way. In fact I kept arriving almost at the exact spot on the shore
                line with each tack so I realized something was amiss and I tossed out
                the anchor again and started playing with the rigging..

                Lee Board swung aft did not work so I swung it forward yet nothing was working..

                Then I remembered how I had to let out TO MUCH slack on the snotter to
                get it moving so I said, WHY NOT try that..

                Then I let out a LOT more camber than I would normally consider and
                pulled the sheet in line with the center line of the boat and that did
                the trick..

                She pointed close to the wind and when I once again hit the open lake
                she heeled over steeply and sailed like a dream. In fact I was moving
                faster now with all that big camber than before..

                Here, all this time I had always had to TIGHTEN my sprit sail to point
                into a stiff wind but now with the flat cut sail I was sailing
                windward with a VERY Loose Snotter....

                The trick to point into the wind on this flat cut LOM seems to be to
                have a LOOSE sail creating lots of camber and the boom sheeted near
                the center line..

                I was on the far side of the lake when the wind dropped late in the
                evening like it does most of the time on this lake.. I moved forward
                so the boat sit on the rocker and sailed her flat. The sail was
                cleated off and the rudder tied off. The boat moved slowly along but
                very predictable. Then I made a turn for the landing with a light tail
                wind.. The boat seemed to be bogged down and it was getting late in
                the evening so I sat on the same side as the sail heeling the boat as
                far over as was safe.. The light tail wind filled that big ole loose
                sail and we moved nicely along reaching the distant shore long before
                the sun disappeared..

                What I liked about the Flat Cut sail is it's FAST and EASY to make.
                Sailing it was DIFFERENT but once I caught on it worked great..

                I am not sure IF I will continue to use Flat triangle sails or not but
                I did learn they can be made to work if you fly the snotter as loose
                as you can given the wind conditions..

                Good night, Chief..

                On 1/4/14, c.ruzer@... <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > How about those traditional sharpie "simple but sophisticated sprit-boomed
                > leg-o'-mutton rigs"? I knew the trick to adjust draft in the sail, make it
                > fuller in light wind for more power or flatten it when the wind gets up to
                > de-power it by working the snotter on the sprit-boom. I've read about that
                > just about evrywhere these sails are written of too. The benefits from being
                > a self-vanging sail, done so simply, and eliminating twist without the
                > bother of a mult-part kicker on the boom is often mentioned too.
                >
                > But of course there's going to be a little bit of give and stretch here and
                > there in the rig, and the usual prescription is to tension the snotter as
                > necessary to minimise the twist - but there's always still going to be some
                > give - and you might be flattening the sail more than you want for best
                > performance. So what to do? Well it's so easy and elegant, and if I've read
                > or heard of it I've never taken it in before:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > "If we rig the snotter so that its height on the mast can be changed while
                > underway, sail twist can be adjusted (ie. dialed in or dialed out). This
                > simple adjustment can increase speed and dampen rhythmic downwind rolling."
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Your expensively cut modern bermudan mainsail and rig uses all those
                > dollars and complicated highly tensioned mechanisms to adjust twist, but
                > for the sharpie just use any simple way to alter the height of the snotter
                > on the mast. Brilliant! I look forward to trying it.
                >
                >
                > Twist, the right amount at the right time is good. The windspeed and
                > underway the apparent wind angle too increase significantly with height
                > above water. A sail that's twisted right with the head falling off just so
                > presents an appropriately changing angle of attack to the changing wind
                > angle and develops more power, is more efficient. When running minimise the
                > twist to minimise oscilating vortices, no death rolls, and efficient.
                >
                >
                > Is this trick of altering the snotter height mentioned in 103 Small Boat
                > Rigs? That's a book I'm putting off getting - some say the best one (save
                > the best till last;). I've not seen PCB or Chapelle write about this. In one
                > of his books Dynamite comments on the low angle of a sprit-boom as drawn
                > saying it would be better at tensioning the foot if it bisected the clew
                > angle. He was thinking only of how much more he could flatten the sail with
                > less effort applied to tensioning the snotter and said he'd mention it to
                > PCB. I think all those 59sqft LOM sails afterward are shown with more of the
                > sprit-boom angle Dynamite was after.
                >
                >
                > Anyway there's a few more good sharpie sail tips here:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bolger/files/Shoal%20Draft%20Sharpies%2C%20and%20Bolger%20on%20lugsail%20peak%20halyards/
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bolger/files/Shoal%20Draft%20Sharpies%2C%20and%20Bolger%20on%20lugsail%20peak%20halyards/
                >

              • mason smith
                Point well taken. From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Connor, Patrick Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 10:57 AM To:
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 5, 2014
                • 0 Attachment

                  Point well taken.

                   

                  From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Connor, Patrick
                  Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 10:57 AM
                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [bolger] Sharpie sprit-boom leg-o'-mutton sail twist control

                   

                   

                  Mason the sails are made by Manchester and are very well made. The main has a LOT of shape, but is designed by the placement of the reef cringles to increasingly flatten the sail as reefs (3) are taken in. The third reef produces an almost flat sail. Phil commented favorably on that sail when he sailed in her. As you know he felt strongly most four sided sails these days are cut too flat. For a dinghy, with its size and somewhat limited stability I would assume you would want a somewhat flatter sail so as to better spill the wind. 

                   

                  The WW mizzen sail is a four-sided sail with a short gaff and a sprit boom. It is cut completely flat. 


                  Sent from my iPhone


                  On Jan 5, 2014, at 10:41 AM, "mason smith" <masonsmith@...> wrote:

                   

                  Anent this subject of flat vs shaped sails I have had some interesting experiences. First with respect to lug sails. According to my understanding, the wisdom around WoodenBoat was that lug sails, as for the Nutshell Pram, should be flat, and, according to my understanding, Robin Lincoln made them flat for the Nutshells. When I rigged my earliest Goodboats for sailing, I had Robin make standing lugsails for me. They were, I believe, utterly flat. When I needed sails sooner than Robin could supply them, I got some from Douglas Fowler, who put about 8 inches of draft in my approximately 72 sq. ft. sails. In identical boats and crews, they literally sailed circles around the flat sails.

                   

                  In sailing my Micro, with sprit-boomed leg-o’mutton sails, as in sailing my Goodboats with their standing lugs, I find that lots of draft is usually good, even in surprisingly strong winds, so I set the snotter just hard enough to keep the luff full. These sails reshape the wind even in their lower parts, so that they themselves alter the apparent wind greatly, at the luff. There’s more forward vector in the resultant force and less heeling moment. As for sheeting, I have never found a set of conditions where the Micro likes to be sheeted anywhere near the centerline.

                   

                  PCB has pointed out how much the cut of the sails affects the performance of 4-sided sails. How do you tell? I have wondered whether the Whalewatcher I built for Pat Connor had the benefit of really well-cut sails. They are pretty, and that boat sails very well, but how well cut are the sails, and how well could it sail? There’s only the one example.

                   

                  I have some experience in sailing the decked sailing canoes of the late 19th century, especially Rushton Vespers. In them, the various spars of the antique bat-wing or “modified Bailey rig” are stiff. They are apparently intended to make the sails as flat as possible. Those old boats do sail, and are great fun to sail, but it would be charming to see what they would do with airfoils in place of inclined planes for sails.

                   

                  Can’t resist a comment on boomless loose-footed sails. I have had two Drascombe Luggers, which sport this kind of sails in gunther yawls and have a great reputation. On both of them I was so annoyed by bad, baggy sail shape off the wind that I rigged sprit-booms, for safety and performance. Spritbooms are not really convenient on gunthers but I rigged them and they were worth the inconvenience. On the second one, I laminated a curved sprit-boom that I called a half-wishbone. Instead of a snotter it was fastened to the mast with a little connector and a vestige of the other half of the wishbone, if you can picture that. This juncture wrapped around the front of the mast and was held by a lashing that went around the after side of the mast, as on a windsurfer. The draft was controlled by an outhaul near the clew, easily reached at the helm. So rigged, with decent sail shape on reaches and runs, my Lugger easily beat the fleet at the North American Drascombe meet and in match races against all comers including the much longer Longboats. I was given the trophy somewhat reluctantly.

                   

                  That don’t prove anything about the flat vs cut sails argument but I would say that the shape a flat sail takes up when the snotter is loose is nowhere near optimal. It’ll sail, agreed, but it will not yield the “supplementary clean gain” that a well-cut sail will. I don’t consider good sail shape a luxury on a sailboat, and even if I made my own sails out of Tyvek, I’d build shape into them, and rather more than less, for the kinds of slowish, smallish boats I sail.

                   

                  From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chief Redelk It’ll Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2014 2:33 AM
                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [bolger] Sharpie sprit-boom leg-o'-mutton sail twist control

                   

                   

                  I've recently experimented with a FLAT cut Leg Of Mutton Sprit boomed
                  Sail..This was my FIRST flat cut sail but I had read that someone was
                  doing it so I wanted to give it a try...

                  This is what I learned...First,, the wind was about 10 to 15 miles per
                  hour and my snotter is adjustable from the cockpit.. I always do that
                  no matter on all my boats. So I was confident with the adjustment.

                  The boat sailed crappy and would not point well at all. In fact I was
                  being blown lee so I tossed out an anchor and played with the rigging.

                  First. I thought it was the lee Board so I swung it back and forth but
                  no sail would not p
                  From my experience in Sprit Sails with darts I felt the camber was
                  right if not on the TO much side so I tightened the sail some then
                  some more and finally flat. NOPE. Did not work..

                  Finally I decided to let TO MUCH sail out and see what happens. The
                  sail began to pull..

                  I was off the wind and zooming along at a nice heel. The boat was
                  surprisingly active and fun.

                  Then I went down wind right up into a cove came about into a head wind
                  and began to tack out.

                  On each tack the boat moved well giving me the illusion I was tacking
                  back into the open waters BUT I realized I was NOT making good head
                  way. In fact I kept arriving almost at the exact spot on the shore
                  line with each tack so I realized something was amiss and I tossed out
                  the anchor again and started playing with the rigging..

                  Lee Board swung aft did not work so I swung it forward yet nothing was working..

                  Then I remembered how I had to let out TO MUCH slack on the snotter to
                  get it moving so I said, WHY NOT try that..

                  Then I let out a LOT more camber than I would normally consider and
                  pulled the sheet in line with the center line of the boat and that did
                  the trick..

                  She pointed close to the wind and when I once again hit the open lake
                  she heeled over steeply and sailed like a dream. In fact I was moving
                  faster now with all that big camber than before..

                  Here, all this time I had always had to TIGHTEN my sprit sail to point
                  into a stiff wind but now with the flat cut sail I was sailing
                  windward with a VERY Loose Snotter....

                  The trick to point into the wind on this flat cut LOM seems to be to
                  have a LOOSE sail creating lots of camber and the boom sheeted near
                  the center line..

                  I was on the far side of the lake when the wind dropped late in the
                  evening like it does most of the time on this lake.. I moved forward
                  so the boat sit on the rocker and sailed her flat. The sail was
                  cleated off and the rudder tied off. The boat moved slowly along but
                  very predictable. Then I made a turn for the landing with a light tail
                  wind.. The boat seemed to be bogged down and it was getting late in
                  the evening so I sat on the same side as the sail heeling the boat as
                  far over as was safe.. The light tail wind filled that big ole loose
                  sail and we moved nicely along reaching the distant shore long before
                  the sun disappeared..

                  What I liked about the Flat Cut sail is it's FAST and EASY to make.
                  Sailing it was DIFFERENT but once I caught on it worked great..

                  I am not sure IF I will continue to use Flat triangle sails or not but
                  I did learn they can be made to work if you fly the snotter as loose
                  as you can given the wind conditions..

                  Good night, Chief..

                  On 1/4/14, c.ruzer@... <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > How about those traditional sharpie "simple but sophisticated sprit-boomed
                  > leg-o'-mutton rigs"? I knew the trick to adjust draft in the sail, make it
                  > fuller in light wind for more power or flatten it when the wind gets up to
                  > de-power it by working the snotter on the sprit-boom. I've read about that
                  > just about evrywhere these sails are written of too. The benefits from being
                  > a self-vanging sail, done so simply, and eliminating twist without the
                  > bother of a mult-part kicker on the boom is often mentioned too.
                  >
                  > But of course there's going to be a little bit of give and stretch here and
                  > there in the rig, and the usual prescription is to tension the snotter as
                  > necessary to minimise the twist - but there's always still going to be some
                  > give - and you might be flattening the sail more than you want for best
                  > performance. So what to do? Well it's so easy and elegant, and if I've read
                  > or heard of it I've never taken it in before:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > "If we rig the snotter so that its height on the mast can be changed while
                  > underway, sail twist can be adjusted (ie. dialed in or dialed out). This
                  > simple adjustment can increase speed and dampen rhythmic downwind rolling."
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your expensively cut modern bermudan mainsail and rig uses all those
                  > dollars and complicated highly tensioned mechanisms to adjust twist, but
                  > for the sharpie just use any simple way to alter the height of the snotter
                  > on the mast. Brilliant! I look forward to trying it.
                  >
                  >
                  > Twist, the right amount at the right time is good. The windspeed and
                  > underway the apparent wind angle too increase significantly with height
                  > above water. A sail that's twisted right with the head falling off just so
                  > presents an appropriately changing angle of attack to the changing wind
                  > angle and develops more power, is more efficient. When running minimise the
                  > twist to minimise oscilating vortices, no death rolls, and efficient.
                  >
                  >
                  > Is this trick of altering the snotter height mentioned in 103 Small Boat
                  > Rigs? That's a book I'm putting off getting - some say the best one (save
                  > the best till last;). I've not seen PCB or Chapelle write about this. In one
                  > of his books Dynamite comments on the low angle of a sprit-boom as drawn
                  > saying it would be better at tensioning the foot if it bisected the clew
                  > angle. He was thinking only of how much more he could flatten the sail with
                  > less effort applied to tensioning the snotter and said he'd mention it to
                  > PCB. I think all those 59sqft LOM sails afterward are shown with more of the
                  > sprit-boom angle Dynamite was after.
                  >
                  >
                  > Anyway there's a few more good sharpie sail tips here:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bolger/files/Shoal%20Draft%20Sharpies%2C%20and%20Bolger%20on%20lugsail%20peak%20halyards/
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bolger/files/Shoal%20Draft%20Sharpies%2C%20and%20Bolger%20on%20lugsail%20peak%20halyards/
                  >

                • oneillparker
                  Yes. Still there.
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jan 6, 2014
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Yes. Still there.
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