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Re: Fast Motorsailor

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  • daschultz8275@sbcglobal.net
    There are/were some pics of an FMS under sail, but I don t have the links anymore. They weren t really very good quality. I seem to remember them being mixed
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 16, 2013
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      There are/were some pics of an FMS under sail, but I don't have the links anymore. They weren't really very good quality.

      I seem to remember them being mixed in with some other Bolger boat pics and not ID'd as FMS.

      I know also the design was tweaked with a 2nd rudder on the other side. You might check out Bruce Hallman's Freeship renderings.

      IMO it is a pretty amazing design.

      Don
    • Peter
      ... If you think about what a fast monohull sailboat looks like (heavy keel, tall mast), you see that the FMS is something different. It was meant to be able
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 16, 2013
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        > Looking at the line drawings does show it will be a
        > better motor boat than a sailboat. Off wind it should
        > be fine under sail. A chart I looked at suggested
        > that guessing a weight if 2500lb ,
        > a 35 hp motor should get it up at about 15 knots.

        If you think about what a fast monohull sailboat looks like (heavy keel, tall mast), you see that the FMS is something different. It was meant to be able to use the rig downwind for the fun of it, or to save fuel. I'm sure it will sail upwind, but it doesn't have the rig or the power to carry sail to be fast hard on the wind.

        I think the 15KT on 30hp estimate is pretty good. If I remember correctly, one guy who built the boat but not the rig was dissatisfied with the performance with mid-teen speeds under power with 30HP and traded up to 70 HP. That got him to the 25KT range.

        PCB was a very good powerboat designer and he described the trade-offs of high and low power in several places. He liked low-powered boats for their quiet and economy, but he noted that once you want more than sailboat speed, you get a hull better suited for high-speed than low.
      • David
        I agree. It is a pretty amazing design. The fact it can: - be built from pretty simple plywood panels (trust Bolger for that) - exceed normal speeds for
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 16, 2013
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          I agree. It is a pretty amazing design. The fact it can:

          - be built from pretty simple plywood panels (trust Bolger for that)
          - exceed normal speeds for aything that size and power under both power and sail (assume Bolger is right on that)
          - sail safely in an unballasted format (hope Bolger is right for that)
          - be trailered with a normal (big) vehicle

          + the fact it is dipping lug rigged and of unconventional hull form

          makes it most attractive to an unconventional bolgerite like myself.

          My reckoning is 35 sheets of 1/2" (12mm) plywood as follows:

          - 4 for the keel bottom and cutwater sides (doubled)
          - 12 for the bilge panels (doubled)
          - 6 for the sides
          - 6 for the decks and other horizontal surfaces
          - 4 for the bulkheads and transom
          - 3 misc. interior joinery not easily obtainable from offcuts

          Realistically, this means a plywood weight of around 550kg (1200 lbs) using pine ply and allowing for 20% waste (a lot by PCB's standards)

          Framing, mast, epoxy/glass and such will add 150kg and the motor a further 80-100kg (say 250 kg for everything including motor and paint) brings me to 800kg or 1.750 lbs dry weight.

          I'm happy to be wrong again, but I don't see how I can be that far from PCB's design waterline of 1846 lbs which I presume allows for a crew of 2, fuel and some provisions.

          Thoughts welcome. Any pictures or links most welcome.

          Best regards,


          David
        • David
          Peter You seem to be referring to the FMS on the squareboats page http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/fms.htm I somehow don t think the original 70HP let alone the
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 16, 2013
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            Peter

            You seem to be referring to the FMS on the squareboats page http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/fms.htm I somehow don't think the original 70HP let alone the later 140HP would have amused PCB much.

            15 kts is incredibly fast for a 23' sailboat and I would happily settle for that (or less). I assume you'd get hull speed (or perhaps more under some conditions) with 10HP or so. Any idea how to guess speeds with given HP for this type of hull appreciated.

            One would be lucky to get Seabird 86 up above 7kts under any conditions and accommodations, trailering and construction cost (with ballast) are in a different league.

            With the distances involved where I sail (central Chile) and the prevailing conditions (a lot of wind from a pretty constant direction or none at all) the abilities of the FMS seem great to me.

            If it comes to exploring the archipelagoes and tidal areas in the South of Chile, the ability to dry out flat and motor the narrow/shallow channels is a great plus.

            My problem with Bolger is that I like too much of his work. Seems like I'll be buying another set of plans.


            David


            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
            >
            > > Looking at the line drawings does show it will be a
            > > better motor boat than a sailboat. Off wind it should
            > > be fine under sail. A chart I looked at suggested
            > > that guessing a weight if 2500lb ,
            > > a 35 hp motor should get it up at about 15 knots.
            >
            > If you think about what a fast monohull sailboat looks like (heavy keel, tall mast), you see that the FMS is something different. It was meant to be able to use the rig downwind for the fun of it, or to save fuel. I'm sure it will sail upwind, but it doesn't have the rig or the power to carry sail to be fast hard on the wind.
            >
            > I think the 15KT on 30hp estimate is pretty good. If I remember correctly, one guy who built the boat but not the rig was dissatisfied with the performance with mid-teen speeds under power with 30HP and traded up to 70 HP. That got him to the 25KT range.
            >
            > PCB was a very good powerboat designer and he described the trade-offs of high and low power in several places. He liked low-powered boats for their quiet and economy, but he noted that once you want more than sailboat speed, you get a hull better suited for high-speed than low.
            >
          • Mark Albanese
            From the Flickerhivemind this is it. (Bruce, you always come thru, though you may have forgotten where you put it.)
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 18, 2013
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              From the Flickerhivemind this is it. (Bruce, you always come thru, though you may have forgotten where you put it.)

              http://www.flickr.com/photos/86125870@N00/55633782
              http://farm1.static.flickr.com/28/55633781_ef6c2ed525_m.jpg


              On Jul 16, 2013, at 10:22 AM, daschultz8275@... wrote:

               


              There are/were some pics of an FMS under sail, but I don't have the links anymore. They weren't really very good quality.

              I seem to remember them being mixed in with some other Bolger boat pics and not ID'd as FMS.

              I know also the design was tweaked with a 2nd rudder on the other side. You might check out Bruce Hallman's Freeship renderings.

              IMO it is a pretty amazing design.

              Don


            • David
              Mark Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you very much. The model tempts me more and more. It s almost worth building just to get high resolution pictures...
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 18, 2013
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                Mark

                Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you very much. The model tempts me more and more. It's almost worth building just to get high resolution pictures...

                I can understand that few have been built and that resale value would be low. However, as with Oldshoe, I am attracted by the fact it:

                - will perform astonishingly well
                - can be built at low cost
                - can be built in short stints
                - will bother most conventional boating people

                I fear I am hooked...

                BTW: Can anyone please confirm whether the design uses a long or short shaft motor.

                Best regards,



                David
              • Mark Albanese
                You could do worse, I m certain Phil took great pleasure in this design. For those who haven t a copy of BWAOM, here s how he concludes. It s my belief that
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 19, 2013
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                  You could do worse,

                  I'm certain Phil took great pleasure in this design. For those who haven't a copy of BWAOM, here's how he concludes.
                  "It's my belief that there never has before existed such a combination of sailing performance, power performance, usable space, lightness and compactness, and low cost."

                  The top of the motor board looks to be just under two feet above the bottom. Doesn't that imply a long shaft?
                  Mark


                  On Jul 18, 2013, at 9:46 AM, David wrote:

                   

                  Mark

                  Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you very much. The model tempts me more and more. It's almost worth building just to get high resolution pictures...

                  I can understand that few have been built and that resale value would be low. However, as with Oldshoe, I am attracted by the fact it:

                  - will perform astonishingly well
                  - can be built at low cost
                  - can be built in short stints
                  - will bother most conventional boating people

                  I fear I am hooked...

                  BTW: Can anyone please confirm whether the design uses a long or short shaft motor.

                  Best regards,

                  David


                • daschultz8275@sbcglobal.net
                  I feel certain you will have the freedom to finish out the motor transom to the height needed for your motor choice. Bolger did a number of motorsailers using
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 19, 2013
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                    I feel certain you will have the freedom to finish out the motor transom to the height needed for your motor choice.

                    Bolger did a number of motorsailers using similar design philosophy ranging from the FMS discussed here, the 30' Alaskan motor-sailer, up the the 100' Sir Joseph Banks, a steel inter-island freighter. The Alaskan was also a small freighter. (I don't have the Alaskan name quite right) I likely haven't seen them all.

                    Based on reading the various essays, I think he took particular pride in these designs.

                    Don

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
                    > BTW: Can anyone please confirm whether the design uses a long or short shaft motor.
                    >
                  • David
                    I too measured about 2 for the transom cut which is why I asked the question. Short shafts are usually 15 and long shafts 20 . Ultra long would be 25 . I ve
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 19, 2013
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                      I too measured about 2' for the transom cut which is why I asked the question. Short shafts are usually 15" and long shafts 20". Ultra long would be 25". I've never seen a 35HP UL so guessed I was reading wrong.

                      Outboard literature says you should be aiming for transom height + 1" when selecting the outboard.



                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > You could do worse,
                      >
                      > I'm certain Phil took great pleasure in this design. For those who
                      > haven't a copy of BWAOM, here's how he concludes.
                      > "It's my belief that there never has before existed such a
                      > combination of sailing performance, power performance, usable space,
                      > lightness and compactness, and low cost."
                      >
                      > The top of the motor board looks to be just under two feet above the
                      > bottom. Doesn't that imply a long shaft?
                      > Mark
                      >
                      >
                      > On Jul 18, 2013, at 9:46 AM, David wrote:
                      >
                      > > Mark
                      > >
                      > > Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you very much. The model
                      > > tempts me more and more. It's almost worth building just to get
                      > > high resolution pictures...
                      > >
                      > > I can understand that few have been built and that resale value
                      > > would be low. However, as with Oldshoe, I am attracted by the fact it:
                      > >
                      > > - will perform astonishingly well
                      > > - can be built at low cost
                      > > - can be built in short stints
                      > > - will bother most conventional boating people
                      > >
                      > > I fear I am hooked...
                      > >
                      > > BTW: Can anyone please confirm whether the design uses a long or
                      > > short shaft motor.
                      > >
                      > > Best regards,
                      > >
                      > > David
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Mark Albanese
                      David, I actually got 21 but at the small scale didn t want to take it for gospel.
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 19, 2013
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                        David,

                        I actually got 21" but at the small scale didn't want to take it for gospel.

                        On Jul 19, 2013 3:51 PM, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
                         

                        I too measured about 2' for the transom cut which is why I asked the question. Short shafts are usually 15" and long shafts 20". Ultra long would be 25". I've never seen a 35HP UL so guessed I was reading wrong.

                        Outboard literature says you should be aiming for transom height + 1" when selecting the outboard.

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > You could do worse,
                        >
                        > I'm certain Phil took great pleasure in this design. For those who
                        > haven't a copy of BWAOM, here's how he concludes.
                        > "It's my belief that there never has before existed such a
                        > combination of sailing performance, power performance, usable space,
                        > lightness and compactness, and low cost."
                        >
                        > The top of the motor board looks to be just under two feet above the
                        > bottom. Doesn't that imply a long shaft?
                        > Mark
                        >
                        >
                        > On Jul 18, 2013, at 9:46 AM, David wrote:
                        >
                        > > Mark
                        > >
                        > > Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you very much. The model
                        > > tempts me more and more. It's almost worth building just to get
                        > > high resolution pictures...
                        > >
                        > > I can understand that few have been built and that resale value
                        > > would be low. However, as with Oldshoe, I am attracted by the fact it:
                        > >
                        > > - will perform astonishingly well
                        > > - can be built at low cost
                        > > - can be built in short stints
                        > > - will bother most conventional boating people
                        > >
                        > > I fear I am hooked...
                        > >
                        > > BTW: Can anyone please confirm whether the design uses a long or
                        > > short shaft motor.
                        > >
                        > > Best regards,
                        > >
                        > > David
                        > >
                        > >
                        >

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