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Fast Motorsailor

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  • David
    Hi all I have been taking a more serious look at the Fast Motorsailor (BWAOM) and was wondering: a) Did Bill McKibben actually build her (the photo in the book
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 15, 2013
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      Hi all

      I have been taking a more serious look at the Fast Motorsailor (BWAOM) and was wondering:

      a) Did Bill McKibben actually build her (the photo in the book is the first one ADA)

      b) Does anyone have pictures of a completed one (with sailing rig) - the only pictures I've found are of a motor only version with 70+ HP and an owner wanting to plane. (Not what Bolger had in mind)

      c) With all the above, does anyone have exerience sailing the thing. How well does she actually sail? The lines aft seem definitely biased towards motoring rather than sailing, but then, Bolger achieved many unconventional things.

      I am seriously tempted to experiment with the dipping lug and either Seabird or the FMS seem good platforms. I already have full plans for Seabird but am attracted by the performance under power and easier trailer ability of the FMS.

      Appreciate comments/thoughts/links.

      Best regards,


      David
    • CharlesR
      Looking at the line drawings does show it will be a better motor boat than a sailboat. Off wind it should be find under sail. A chart I looked at suggested
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 15, 2013
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        Looking at the line drawings does show it will be a better motor boat than a sailboat. Off wind it should be find under sail. A chart I looked at suggested that guessing a weight if 2500lb , a 35 hp motor should get it up at about 15 knots. How fast do you want to go. Motor sailers are compromises at best I'd suggest with a good sail boat or a good power boat. Bolger has designed both. Why pick a type of boat that is inherently a poor performer.?

        Leigh

        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi all
        >
        > I have been taking a more serious look at the Fast Motorsailor (BWAOM) and was wondering:
        >
        > a) Did Bill McKibben actually build her (the photo in the book is the first one ADA)
        >
        > b) Does anyone have pictures of a completed one (with sailing rig) - the only pictures I've found are of a motor only version with 70+ HP and an owner wanting to plane. (Not what Bolger had in mind)
        >
        > c) With all the above, does anyone have exerience sailing the thing. How well does she actually sail? The lines aft seem definitely biased towards motoring rather than sailing, but then, Bolger achieved many unconventional things.
        >
        > I am seriously tempted to experiment with the dipping lug and either Seabird or the FMS seem good platforms. I already have full plans for Seabird but am attracted by the performance under power and easier trailer ability of the FMS.
        >
        > Appreciate comments/thoughts/links.
        >
        > Best regards,
        >
        >
        > David
        >
      • Mike Graf
        I really like the FMS too...gotta have twice the room of the Seabird! There some cool pics on the net, powerboat version w/that broad stern and standing
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 15, 2013
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          I really like the FMS too...gotta have twice the room of the Seabird!     There' some cool pics on the net, powerboat version w/that broad stern and standing headroom and flared forpeak she got some living room
          Bolger wouldn't have put a sail on it if it didn't work.....broad reaching speedster I bet!

          Motor Sailor  can have many connotations
              sail w/motor running
              motor to windward
              motor cause I'm too lazy to put the sails up this morning
                  
             
          I got a Yamaha 4 cycle 15 LS......5-6 knots economy cruiser ..... might even plane

          I had an old Seabird Yawl, Marconi, over 400 ft of sail 25-6 on deck 33 ft OA  when the rig fell down.... I put a lug(cut out of the main) on a short mast in the main tabernackle

          i was amazed how well she sailed
          cheers


          On 07/15/2013 12:15 PM, David wrote:
           

          Hi all

          I have been taking a more serious look at the Fast Motorsailor (BWAOM) and was wondering:

          a) Did Bill McKibben actually build her (the photo in the book is the first one ADA)

          b) Does anyone have pictures of a completed one (with sailing rig) - the only pictures I've found are of a motor only version with 70+ HP and an owner wanting to plane. (Not what Bolger had in mind)

          c) With all the above, does anyone have exerience sailing the thing. How well does she actually sail? The lines aft seem definitely biased towards motoring rather than sailing, but then, Bolger achieved many unconventional things.

          I am seriously tempted to experiment with the dipping lug and either Seabird or the FMS seem good platforms. I already have full plans for Seabird but am attracted by the performance under power and easier trailer ability of the FMS.

          Appreciate comments/thoughts/links.

          Best regards,

          David


        • sirdarnell
          Instead of thinking of a motorsailor as an either/or, think of it as a hybrid. Always traveling at say 12 knots no matter what wind speed is, using more or
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 16, 2013
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            Instead of thinking of a motorsailor as an either/or, think of it as a hybrid. Always traveling at say 12 knots no matter what wind speed is, using more or less motor as needed, and only going faster if you can on sail alone. The sail in this case lowers fuel costs.

            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "CharlesR" <Leighpilot@...> wrote:
            >
            > Looking at the line drawings does show it will be a better motor boat than a sailboat. Off wind it should be find under sail. A chart I looked at suggested that guessing a weight if 2500lb , a 35 hp motor should get it up at about 15 knots. How fast do you want to go. Motor sailers are compromises at best I'd suggest with a good sail boat or a good power boat. Bolger has designed both. Why pick a type of boat that is inherently a poor performer.?
            >
            > Leigh
            >
            > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi all
            > >
            > > I have been taking a more serious look at the Fast Motorsailor (BWAOM) and was wondering:
            > >
            > > a) Did Bill McKibben actually build her (the photo in the book is the first one ADA)
            > >
            > > b) Does anyone have pictures of a completed one (with sailing rig) - the only pictures I've found are of a motor only version with 70+ HP and an owner wanting to plane. (Not what Bolger had in mind)
            > >
            > > c) With all the above, does anyone have exerience sailing the thing. How well does she actually sail? The lines aft seem definitely biased towards motoring rather than sailing, but then, Bolger achieved many unconventional things.
            > >
            > > I am seriously tempted to experiment with the dipping lug and either Seabird or the FMS seem good platforms. I already have full plans for Seabird but am attracted by the performance under power and easier trailer ability of the FMS.
            > >
            > > Appreciate comments/thoughts/links.
            > >
            > > Best regards,
            > >
            > >
            > > David
            > >
            >
          • BruceHallman
            ... Agreed! The word better always implies the presumption in what way . Sometimes it is better to be versatile, trying to hit a sweet spot in the middle.
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 16, 2013
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              On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 7:58 AM, sirdarnell <sirdarnell@...> wrote:
               

              Instead of thinking of a motorsailor as an either/or, think of it as a hybrid. Always traveling at say 12 knots no matter what wind speed is, using more or less motor as needed, and only going faster if you can on sail alone. The sail in this case lowers fuel costs.



              > Looking at the line drawings does show it will be a better motor boat than a sailboat. 


               Agreed!  The word "better" always implies the presumption "in what way".  

              Sometimes it is better to be versatile, trying to hit a sweet spot in the middle. Other times it is better to be the best at either extreme, (fast sailing or fast motoring).  And other times, you simply want comfort and don't care about going fast.    And even other times, lolling around sailing circles in a light weight sailing dingy is best, or exploring in a kayak, etc..
            • daschultz8275@sbcglobal.net
              There are/were some pics of an FMS under sail, but I don t have the links anymore. They weren t really very good quality. I seem to remember them being mixed
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 16, 2013
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                There are/were some pics of an FMS under sail, but I don't have the links anymore. They weren't really very good quality.

                I seem to remember them being mixed in with some other Bolger boat pics and not ID'd as FMS.

                I know also the design was tweaked with a 2nd rudder on the other side. You might check out Bruce Hallman's Freeship renderings.

                IMO it is a pretty amazing design.

                Don
              • Peter
                ... If you think about what a fast monohull sailboat looks like (heavy keel, tall mast), you see that the FMS is something different. It was meant to be able
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 16, 2013
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                  > Looking at the line drawings does show it will be a
                  > better motor boat than a sailboat. Off wind it should
                  > be fine under sail. A chart I looked at suggested
                  > that guessing a weight if 2500lb ,
                  > a 35 hp motor should get it up at about 15 knots.

                  If you think about what a fast monohull sailboat looks like (heavy keel, tall mast), you see that the FMS is something different. It was meant to be able to use the rig downwind for the fun of it, or to save fuel. I'm sure it will sail upwind, but it doesn't have the rig or the power to carry sail to be fast hard on the wind.

                  I think the 15KT on 30hp estimate is pretty good. If I remember correctly, one guy who built the boat but not the rig was dissatisfied with the performance with mid-teen speeds under power with 30HP and traded up to 70 HP. That got him to the 25KT range.

                  PCB was a very good powerboat designer and he described the trade-offs of high and low power in several places. He liked low-powered boats for their quiet and economy, but he noted that once you want more than sailboat speed, you get a hull better suited for high-speed than low.
                • David
                  I agree. It is a pretty amazing design. The fact it can: - be built from pretty simple plywood panels (trust Bolger for that) - exceed normal speeds for
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 16, 2013
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                    I agree. It is a pretty amazing design. The fact it can:

                    - be built from pretty simple plywood panels (trust Bolger for that)
                    - exceed normal speeds for aything that size and power under both power and sail (assume Bolger is right on that)
                    - sail safely in an unballasted format (hope Bolger is right for that)
                    - be trailered with a normal (big) vehicle

                    + the fact it is dipping lug rigged and of unconventional hull form

                    makes it most attractive to an unconventional bolgerite like myself.

                    My reckoning is 35 sheets of 1/2" (12mm) plywood as follows:

                    - 4 for the keel bottom and cutwater sides (doubled)
                    - 12 for the bilge panels (doubled)
                    - 6 for the sides
                    - 6 for the decks and other horizontal surfaces
                    - 4 for the bulkheads and transom
                    - 3 misc. interior joinery not easily obtainable from offcuts

                    Realistically, this means a plywood weight of around 550kg (1200 lbs) using pine ply and allowing for 20% waste (a lot by PCB's standards)

                    Framing, mast, epoxy/glass and such will add 150kg and the motor a further 80-100kg (say 250 kg for everything including motor and paint) brings me to 800kg or 1.750 lbs dry weight.

                    I'm happy to be wrong again, but I don't see how I can be that far from PCB's design waterline of 1846 lbs which I presume allows for a crew of 2, fuel and some provisions.

                    Thoughts welcome. Any pictures or links most welcome.

                    Best regards,


                    David
                  • David
                    Peter You seem to be referring to the FMS on the squareboats page http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/fms.htm I somehow don t think the original 70HP let alone the
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 16, 2013
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                      Peter

                      You seem to be referring to the FMS on the squareboats page http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/fms.htm I somehow don't think the original 70HP let alone the later 140HP would have amused PCB much.

                      15 kts is incredibly fast for a 23' sailboat and I would happily settle for that (or less). I assume you'd get hull speed (or perhaps more under some conditions) with 10HP or so. Any idea how to guess speeds with given HP for this type of hull appreciated.

                      One would be lucky to get Seabird 86 up above 7kts under any conditions and accommodations, trailering and construction cost (with ballast) are in a different league.

                      With the distances involved where I sail (central Chile) and the prevailing conditions (a lot of wind from a pretty constant direction or none at all) the abilities of the FMS seem great to me.

                      If it comes to exploring the archipelagoes and tidal areas in the South of Chile, the ability to dry out flat and motor the narrow/shallow channels is a great plus.

                      My problem with Bolger is that I like too much of his work. Seems like I'll be buying another set of plans.


                      David


                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > Looking at the line drawings does show it will be a
                      > > better motor boat than a sailboat. Off wind it should
                      > > be fine under sail. A chart I looked at suggested
                      > > that guessing a weight if 2500lb ,
                      > > a 35 hp motor should get it up at about 15 knots.
                      >
                      > If you think about what a fast monohull sailboat looks like (heavy keel, tall mast), you see that the FMS is something different. It was meant to be able to use the rig downwind for the fun of it, or to save fuel. I'm sure it will sail upwind, but it doesn't have the rig or the power to carry sail to be fast hard on the wind.
                      >
                      > I think the 15KT on 30hp estimate is pretty good. If I remember correctly, one guy who built the boat but not the rig was dissatisfied with the performance with mid-teen speeds under power with 30HP and traded up to 70 HP. That got him to the 25KT range.
                      >
                      > PCB was a very good powerboat designer and he described the trade-offs of high and low power in several places. He liked low-powered boats for their quiet and economy, but he noted that once you want more than sailboat speed, you get a hull better suited for high-speed than low.
                      >
                    • Mark Albanese
                      From the Flickerhivemind this is it. (Bruce, you always come thru, though you may have forgotten where you put it.)
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 18, 2013
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                        From the Flickerhivemind this is it. (Bruce, you always come thru, though you may have forgotten where you put it.)

                        http://www.flickr.com/photos/86125870@N00/55633782
                        http://farm1.static.flickr.com/28/55633781_ef6c2ed525_m.jpg


                        On Jul 16, 2013, at 10:22 AM, daschultz8275@... wrote:

                         


                        There are/were some pics of an FMS under sail, but I don't have the links anymore. They weren't really very good quality.

                        I seem to remember them being mixed in with some other Bolger boat pics and not ID'd as FMS.

                        I know also the design was tweaked with a 2nd rudder on the other side. You might check out Bruce Hallman's Freeship renderings.

                        IMO it is a pretty amazing design.

                        Don


                      • David
                        Mark Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you very much. The model tempts me more and more. It s almost worth building just to get high resolution pictures...
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jul 18, 2013
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                          Mark

                          Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you very much. The model tempts me more and more. It's almost worth building just to get high resolution pictures...

                          I can understand that few have been built and that resale value would be low. However, as with Oldshoe, I am attracted by the fact it:

                          - will perform astonishingly well
                          - can be built at low cost
                          - can be built in short stints
                          - will bother most conventional boating people

                          I fear I am hooked...

                          BTW: Can anyone please confirm whether the design uses a long or short shaft motor.

                          Best regards,



                          David
                        • Mark Albanese
                          You could do worse, I m certain Phil took great pleasure in this design. For those who haven t a copy of BWAOM, here s how he concludes. It s my belief that
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jul 19, 2013
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                            You could do worse,

                            I'm certain Phil took great pleasure in this design. For those who haven't a copy of BWAOM, here's how he concludes.
                            "It's my belief that there never has before existed such a combination of sailing performance, power performance, usable space, lightness and compactness, and low cost."

                            The top of the motor board looks to be just under two feet above the bottom. Doesn't that imply a long shaft?
                            Mark


                            On Jul 18, 2013, at 9:46 AM, David wrote:

                             

                            Mark

                            Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you very much. The model tempts me more and more. It's almost worth building just to get high resolution pictures...

                            I can understand that few have been built and that resale value would be low. However, as with Oldshoe, I am attracted by the fact it:

                            - will perform astonishingly well
                            - can be built at low cost
                            - can be built in short stints
                            - will bother most conventional boating people

                            I fear I am hooked...

                            BTW: Can anyone please confirm whether the design uses a long or short shaft motor.

                            Best regards,

                            David


                          • daschultz8275@sbcglobal.net
                            I feel certain you will have the freedom to finish out the motor transom to the height needed for your motor choice. Bolger did a number of motorsailers using
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jul 19, 2013
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                              I feel certain you will have the freedom to finish out the motor transom to the height needed for your motor choice.

                              Bolger did a number of motorsailers using similar design philosophy ranging from the FMS discussed here, the 30' Alaskan motor-sailer, up the the 100' Sir Joseph Banks, a steel inter-island freighter. The Alaskan was also a small freighter. (I don't have the Alaskan name quite right) I likely haven't seen them all.

                              Based on reading the various essays, I think he took particular pride in these designs.

                              Don

                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
                              > BTW: Can anyone please confirm whether the design uses a long or short shaft motor.
                              >
                            • David
                              I too measured about 2 for the transom cut which is why I asked the question. Short shafts are usually 15 and long shafts 20 . Ultra long would be 25 . I ve
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jul 19, 2013
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                                I too measured about 2' for the transom cut which is why I asked the question. Short shafts are usually 15" and long shafts 20". Ultra long would be 25". I've never seen a 35HP UL so guessed I was reading wrong.

                                Outboard literature says you should be aiming for transom height + 1" when selecting the outboard.



                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > You could do worse,
                                >
                                > I'm certain Phil took great pleasure in this design. For those who
                                > haven't a copy of BWAOM, here's how he concludes.
                                > "It's my belief that there never has before existed such a
                                > combination of sailing performance, power performance, usable space,
                                > lightness and compactness, and low cost."
                                >
                                > The top of the motor board looks to be just under two feet above the
                                > bottom. Doesn't that imply a long shaft?
                                > Mark
                                >
                                >
                                > On Jul 18, 2013, at 9:46 AM, David wrote:
                                >
                                > > Mark
                                > >
                                > > Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you very much. The model
                                > > tempts me more and more. It's almost worth building just to get
                                > > high resolution pictures...
                                > >
                                > > I can understand that few have been built and that resale value
                                > > would be low. However, as with Oldshoe, I am attracted by the fact it:
                                > >
                                > > - will perform astonishingly well
                                > > - can be built at low cost
                                > > - can be built in short stints
                                > > - will bother most conventional boating people
                                > >
                                > > I fear I am hooked...
                                > >
                                > > BTW: Can anyone please confirm whether the design uses a long or
                                > > short shaft motor.
                                > >
                                > > Best regards,
                                > >
                                > > David
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Mark Albanese
                                David, I actually got 21 but at the small scale didn t want to take it for gospel.
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jul 19, 2013
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                                  David,

                                  I actually got 21" but at the small scale didn't want to take it for gospel.

                                  On Jul 19, 2013 3:51 PM, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  I too measured about 2' for the transom cut which is why I asked the question. Short shafts are usually 15" and long shafts 20". Ultra long would be 25". I've never seen a 35HP UL so guessed I was reading wrong.

                                  Outboard literature says you should be aiming for transom height + 1" when selecting the outboard.

                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > You could do worse,
                                  >
                                  > I'm certain Phil took great pleasure in this design. For those who
                                  > haven't a copy of BWAOM, here's how he concludes.
                                  > "It's my belief that there never has before existed such a
                                  > combination of sailing performance, power performance, usable space,
                                  > lightness and compactness, and low cost."
                                  >
                                  > The top of the motor board looks to be just under two feet above the
                                  > bottom. Doesn't that imply a long shaft?
                                  > Mark
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On Jul 18, 2013, at 9:46 AM, David wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Mark
                                  > >
                                  > > Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you very much. The model
                                  > > tempts me more and more. It's almost worth building just to get
                                  > > high resolution pictures...
                                  > >
                                  > > I can understand that few have been built and that resale value
                                  > > would be low. However, as with Oldshoe, I am attracted by the fact it:
                                  > >
                                  > > - will perform astonishingly well
                                  > > - can be built at low cost
                                  > > - can be built in short stints
                                  > > - will bother most conventional boating people
                                  > >
                                  > > I fear I am hooked...
                                  > >
                                  > > BTW: Can anyone please confirm whether the design uses a long or
                                  > > short shaft motor.
                                  > >
                                  > > Best regards,
                                  > >
                                  > > David
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >

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