Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Whalewatcher plans

Expand Messages
  • m.jayjensen
    First let me say that I am in no way defending Mr. Estes. I have had a bad experience with him in the past and will never do business with him again. What I
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 29, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      First let me say that I am in no way defending Mr. Estes. I have had a
      bad experience with him in the past and will never do business with him
      again.
      What I would like to point out is that you may very well have gotten
      Whalewatcher plans from him but it may have been from him and not the
      business (CSB). If they were incomplete and you accepted them as such,
      then how could you say that CSB sold them to you ? If CSB sold incomplete
      plans then they would not be in business very long.

      The credit card company paid money to CSB.
      The plans were paid for in advance.
      When I had the electronic file printed I realized that they were of
      limited value without the key.
      Mr Estes said he had the key and would send it to me when he had the time
      to look for it. It has not happened.
      Mr Estes representing CSB does not respond to E-mails.

      How fine can a hair be split?

      Jay
      ____________________________________________________________
      BlackBerry® 10
      Find out more about the new BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
      http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/517ec33ab95943394760st03duc
    • richard laux
      I hope everyone realizes that Mr. Estes is not someone to do business with. ________________________________ From: mjpjensen@juno.com
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 29, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        I hope everyone realizes that Mr. Estes is not someone to do business with.
        From: "mjpjensen@..." <mjpjensen@...>
        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 1:58 PM
        Subject: [bolger] Whalewatcher plans
         
        First let me say that I am in no way defending Mr. Estes. I have had a
        bad experience with him in the past and will never do business with him
        again.
        What I would like to point out is that you may very well have gotten
        Whalewatcher plans from him but it may have been from him and not the
        business (CSB). If they were incomplete and you accepted them as such,
        then how could you say that CSB sold them to you ? If CSB sold incomplete
        plans then they would not be in business very long.

        The credit card company paid money to CSB.
        The plans were paid for in advance.
        When I had the electronic file printed I realized that they were of
        limited value without the key.
        Mr Estes said he had the key and would send it to me when he had the time
        to look for it. It has not happened.
        Mr Estes representing CSB does not respond to E-mails.

        How fine can a hair be split?

        Jay
        __________________________________________________________
        BlackBerry&#174 10
        Find out more about the new BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
        http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/517ec33ab95943394760st03duc
      • m.jayjensen
        Greetings, Everything seems to point to the fact that CSB is selling stolen property. As a Widows Son and an honorable man (I work at it anyway), I can not be
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 30, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Greetings,
           
          Everything seems to point to the fact that CSB is selling stolen property. 
          As a Widows Son and an honorable man (I work at it anyway), I can not be a party to defrauding Susanne Altenburger of what she is entitled to.
          This matter will be worked out in a fair and equatable manner.
           
          Back to the beginning!
           
          I am going to build a boat that my wife and I can travel in for an extended periods of time.  Home base is on the upper Mississippi. It needs to motor well, sail in a respectable fashion, and not aggravate my wife's claustrophobia.  There was a boat I would like to hear about mentioned in Boats with An Open Mind  At the end of the article on the Sailing Schooner a reference was maid to a sailing houseboat.
          Is there any information on that plan?
           
          Best wishes,
          M. Jay Jensen
           
           

          Hello All,
          some basics are in order:
          - Phil Bolger & Friends (PB&F) has never had a legitimate commercial relationship with ‘Common Sense Boats’(CSB)
          - It is not clear to PB&F how CSB acquired copies of copies upon which their ‘offerings’ are based.
          - CSB has never presented PB&F with any royalty-checks.
          - CSB has been advised in writing by PB&F on a number of occasions that it has no authority to take our work and make money off it.
          - With CSB’s location in British Columbia, further research is underfoot to determine the role of the Provincial government in Victoria in such matters.
          - Challenges to customers emerging out of CSB’s ‘business model’ have been heard of before, with the final outcome in those cases uncertain.


          - However, Common Sense Designs (CSD) had a relationship with PB&F a long time ago, based on a personal understanding between Phil Bolger and Bernie Wolford.
          - CSD folded a long time ago, with the return of respective Mylar copies of Bolger designs back to Bolger, then and now PB&F.


          - The sole legitimate sellers of a small fraction of our design-archive remains H.H.Payson and Company, based upon a re-constructed understanding after Dynamite Payson’s death in 2010, plus WOODENBOAT Magazine continuing to offer a couple of plans drawn by Bolger.


          - Boat Designs featured in Phil’ books are not necessarily represented in all details, nor would feature any later corrections or upgrades.
          - Furthermore the process of reducing those graphics for book-format reproduction may introduce distortions apart from loss of details.
          - There have been examples of boats build ‘out of the books’, with all carrying the risk of small to larger investments based on potentially incomplete and corrupted information.


          - On the scale of any boat-building project beyond the simplest of skiffs, the investment in materials and labor typically is a vast multiple of the cost of plans.
          - In the case in point here - Design #561 “Whalewatcher” - just the value of the materials-list alone necessary to build this 29-foot hull suggests that using plans from the original creator/s and supplier/s of bona fide copies of that design-work might be the best course of action.
          - Currently plans for Design #561 incl. Building Key remain listed by Phil at $250.-

          Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
           
           
           
           


          ____________________________________________________________
          How to Sleep Like a Rock
          Obey this one natural trick to fall asleep and stay asleep all night.
          peaklife.com
        • m.jayjensen
          Susanne Altenburger, PB&F Dear Susanne, Would you please resend the following to me. Phil Bolger & Friends (PB&F) has never had a legitimate commercial
          Message 4 of 14 , May 1, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
            Dear Susanne,
            Would you please resend the following to me.
             
             
            Phil Bolger & Friends (PB&F) has never had a legitimate commercial relationship with ‘Common Sense Boats’(CSB)
            - It is not clear to PB&F how CSB acquired copies of copies upon which their ‘offerings’ are based.
            - CSB has never presented PB&F with any royalty-checks.
            - CSB has been advised in writing by PB&F on a number of occasions that it has no authority to take our work and make money off it.
            - With CSB’s location in British Columbia, further research is underfoot to determine the role of the Provincial government in Victoria in such matters.
            - Challenges to customers emerging out of CSB’s ‘business model’ have been heard of before, with the final outcome in those cases uncertain.

            I have begun the process of trying to recover the money that was paid to CSB and a concise statement would be helpful.
             
            Best wishes,
            M. Jay Jensen 


            ____________________________________________________________
            New BlackBerry® Z10
            Discover the BlackBerry Z10, built to keep you moving. Get it today.
            BlackBerry.com
          • c.ruzer
            ... For a time Bernie Wolfard sold Whalewatcher plans via his Common Sense Designs Bolger plans marketing business. Late in his time with that business he also
            Message 5 of 14 , May 5, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, mjpjensen@... wrote:
              > Everything seems to point to the fact that CSB is selling stolen
              > property.
              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
              > - It is not clear to PB&F how CSB acquired copies of copies upon
              > which their ‘offerings’ are based.


              For a time Bernie Wolfard sold Whalewatcher plans via his Common Sense Designs Bolger plans marketing business.

              Late in his time with that business he also offered a range of 23 large and small "complex" Bolger designs, Barn Owl, Bright Thread, Kotick, Crystal, Harbinger, Victoria, Wisp, Moccasin, Sybil's Yawl, Shivaree, etc, etc, and various PCB and other article reprints.

              The criteria for selection to the Common Sense Complex Boats range was arrived at... "When I told Bolger of my plans to add a complex boats section to the Common Sense catalog he asked if I had anything like the Common Sense criteria to guide the selection as he has almost 600 designs from which to choose. I wrote him that I hadn't come up with any. Bolger suggested that we choose boats that he still liked after they were built and the owners were still friends with him. Sounded like a Common Sense criteria to me, so that is what we used to select the boats presented here. It goes without saying that each of these boats are worthy of study and contemplation as exemplary examples of the designers art. I hope you enjoy them as much as do (sic)" - Bernie Wolfard, Common Sense Design Book

              http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM2000/articles/bernie/

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/5979

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/17175

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/23670

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/7051

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/33024

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/1270

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/messages/33049?threaded=1&m=e&var=1&tidx=1

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/33029

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/17135

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/10290

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/44495

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/62073
            • m.jayjensen
              Thank you for this posting. It is very informative. M. Jay JENSEN ... For a time Bernie Wolfard sold Whalewatcher plans via his Common Sense Designs Bolger
              Message 6 of 14 , May 5, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Thank you for this posting.
                It is very informative.
                M. Jay JENSEN


                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, mjpjensen@... wrote:
                > Everything seems to point to the fact that CSB is selling stolen
                > property.
                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
                > - It is not clear to PB&F how CSB acquired copies of copies upon
                > which their ‘offerings’ are based.


                For a time Bernie Wolfard sold Whalewatcher plans via his Common Sense
                Designs Bolger plans marketing business.

                Late in his time with that business he also offered a range of 23 large
                and small "complex" Bolger designs, Barn Owl, Bright Thread, Kotick,
                Crystal, Harbinger, Victoria, Wisp, Moccasin, Sybil's Yawl, Shivaree,
                etc, etc, and various PCB and other article reprints.

                The criteria for selection to the Common Sense Complex Boats range was
                arrived at... "When I told Bolger of my plans to add a complex boats
                section to the Common Sense catalog he asked if I had anything like the
                Common Sense criteria to guide the selection as he has almost 600 designs
                from which to choose. I wrote him that I hadn't come up with any. Bolger
                suggested that we choose boats that he still liked after they were built
                and the owners were still friends with him. Sounded like a Common Sense
                criteria to me, so that is what we used to select the boats presented
                here. It goes without saying that each of these boats are worthy of study
                and contemplation as exemplary examples of the designers art. I hope you
                enjoy them as much as do (sic)" - Bernie Wolfard, Common Sense Design
                Book

                ____________________________________________________________
                New BlackBerry® Z10
                Discover the BlackBerry Z10, built to keep you moving. Get it today.
                http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/51868b8481625b84171bst04duc
              • daschultz8275@sbcglobal.net
                So according to PB&F, the mylars (high quality originals) were returned after BF passed. So it would seem the Canadian had paper dwgs scanned on a large
                Message 7 of 14 , May 8, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  So according to PB&F, the 'mylars' (high quality originals) were returned after BF passed.

                  So it would seem the Canadian had paper dwgs scanned on a large format scanner. The files are used to generate pdfs that he sells. My guess is if somebody pays him for a paper version, he runs down to a local printer, and gets a copy made, though he may have his own printer. I am assuming the paper versions come in a large format, IE sizd D drawings.

                  I don't know any history of how the current "Common Sense..." got started. Did the owner buy CSD from the Wolfard estate? He is now designing his own stuff. Some seem Bolger like in style.

                  I suppose many could study Bolger's work and then sketch variations that look OK. But would they be structurally sound, and seaworthy?

                  I agree that PB&F will continue to have a tough time stopping this abuse of their intellectual property.

                  Several years ago I bought via the web what were called unused Bolger plans for Martha Jane, and Idaho. When they arrived, they were the CSD versions. Oh, and no key.

                  I also bought Hawkeye plans from PB&F. With a key.
                • Dave Gentry
                  ... Years ago, before I knew any better - and before I realized that the business no longer involved Bernie Wolfard - I bought plans for a sea kayak designed
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 9, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz8275@..." <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I don't know any history of how the current "Common Sense..." got >started. Did the owner buy CSD from the Wolfard estate? He is now >designing his own stuff.

                    Years ago, before I knew any better - and before I realized that the business no longer involved Bernie Wolfard - I bought plans for a sea kayak "designed" by this guy.
                    I did build it(although even back then I was looking askance at the plans), and it was, without a doubt,the worst kayak that I have ever had the displeasure to paddle. I ended up giving it away a month later, and would have been just as happy to burn it, despite having invested a lot of money and time in building it.

                    Caveat emptor, indeed.
                  • apraphett777
                    the excellent keys that Phil put in his books has been why I have been able to build so many with just the books I am a builder of smallish skiffs if I were
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 27, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      the excellent keys that Phil put in his books has been why I have been able to build so many with just the books I am a builder of smallish skiffs if I were attempt to build a larger boat I would order plans. At some point I am hoping to build Queen Mab :)

                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz8275@..." <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > So according to PB&F, the 'mylars' (high quality originals) were returned after BF passed.
                      >
                      > So it would seem the Canadian had paper dwgs scanned on a large format scanner. The files are used to generate pdfs that he sells. My guess is if somebody pays him for a paper version, he runs down to a local printer, and gets a copy made, though he may have his own printer. I am assuming the paper versions come in a large format, IE sizd D drawings.
                      >
                      > I don't know any history of how the current "Common Sense..." got started. Did the owner buy CSD from the Wolfard estate? He is now designing his own stuff. Some seem Bolger like in style.
                      >
                      > I suppose many could study Bolger's work and then sketch variations that look OK. But would they be structurally sound, and seaworthy?
                      >
                      > I agree that PB&F will continue to have a tough time stopping this abuse of their intellectual property.
                      >
                      > Several years ago I bought via the web what were called unused Bolger plans for Martha Jane, and Idaho. When they arrived, they were the CSD versions. Oh, and no key.
                      >
                      > I also bought Hawkeye plans from PB&F. With a key.
                      >
                    • mason smith
                      What Phil and Susanne call keys are not in the books, to my knowledge. You have to get the plans to get the keys, which are instructions and measurements for
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 27, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment

                        What Phil and Susanne call keys are not in the books, to my knowledge. You have to get the plans to get the keys, which are instructions and measurements for every numbered part in the plans, plus some more general instructions.

                         

                        From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of apraphett777
                        Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 11:52 AM
                        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [bolger] Re: Whalewatcher plans

                         

                         

                        the excellent keys that Phil put in his books has been why I have been able to build so many with just the books I am a builder of smallish skiffs if I were attempt to build a larger boat I would order plans. At some point I am hoping to build Queen Mab :)

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz8275@..." <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > So according to PB&F, the 'mylars' (high quality originals) were returned after BF passed.
                        >
                        > So it would seem the Canadian had paper dwgs scanned on a large format scanner. The files are used to generate pdfs that he sells. My guess is if somebody pays him for a paper version, he runs down to a local printer, and gets a copy made, though he may have his own printer. I am assuming the paper versions come in a large format, IE sizd D drawings.
                        >
                        > I don't know any history of how the current "Common Sense..." got started. Did the owner buy CSD from the Wolfard estate? He is now designing his own stuff. Some seem Bolger like in style.
                        >
                        > I suppose many could study Bolger's work and then sketch variations that look OK. But would they be structurally sound, and seaworthy?
                        >
                        > I agree that PB&F will continue to have a tough time stopping this abuse of their intellectual property.
                        >
                        > Several years ago I bought via the web what were called unused Bolger plans for Martha Jane, and Idaho. When they arrived, they were the CSD versions. Oh, and no key.
                        >
                        > I also bought Hawkeye plans from PB&F. With a key.
                        >

                      • daschultz8275@sbcglobal.net
                        Well, as it turns out some of the books have the key with some of the designs, but the majority certainly do not. Most of the designs with everything you need
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 28, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Well, as it turns out some of the books have the key with some of the designs, but the majority certainly do not.

                          Most of the designs with everything you need are very simple, smaller boats. One of the larger more complex designs with a key is in "The Folding Schooner", a boat named "Utility for Homebuilders". I think everything is there for that design.

                          Others include details in the chapter or MAIB article, like offset tables but are missing a key, and, I believe, entire sheets of the blueprints. I s'pose one could build from the tables and other partial info, but for the few $$ on a nearly 10k$ project, why take more risks?

                          BTW stating not all the blueprints are recreated in the books is NOT a complaint. The Bolger books I have are groups of study plans with PBF's wonderful essays regarding each design. That's what I expected and received when buying the books.

                          I think PB&F makes the most important point that the plans cost is a very small part of most any project. I also agree the upgrades and corrections are very very important. Martha Jane is a very good example. The upgraded boat with a Navigator cabin and those ugly sponsons is not just roomier, it is a much safer boat.

                          Don Schultz


                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <masonsmith@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > What Phil and Susanne call keys are not in the books, to my knowledge. You
                          > have to get the plans to get the keys, which are instructions and
                          > measurements for every numbered part in the plans, plus some more general instructions...
                          >
                        • apraphett777
                          the same type of key that was in the Queen Mab plans, are in all the books I have by PhilI have all but the Novel a step by step numbering of the parts etc I
                          Message 12 of 14 , May 28, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            the same type of key that was in the Queen Mab plans, are in all the books I have by PhilI have all but the Novel a step by step numbering of the parts etc I also have the Payson books as well all a very good education in boat building Cheers Pal

                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <masonsmith@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > What Phil and Susanne call keys are not in the books, to my knowledge. You
                            > have to get the plans to get the keys, which are instructions and
                            > measurements for every numbered part in the plans, plus some more general
                            > instructions.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                            > apraphett777
                            > Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 11:52 AM
                            > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [bolger] Re: Whalewatcher plans
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > the excellent keys that Phil put in his books has been why I have been able
                            > to build so many with just the books I am a builder of smallish skiffs if I
                            > were attempt to build a larger boat I would order plans. At some point I am
                            > hoping to build Queen Mab :)
                            >
                            > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                            > "daschultz8275@" <daschultz8275@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > So according to PB&F, the 'mylars' (high quality originals) were returned
                            > after BF passed.
                            > >
                            > > So it would seem the Canadian had paper dwgs scanned on a large format
                            > scanner. The files are used to generate pdfs that he sells. My guess is if
                            > somebody pays him for a paper version, he runs down to a local printer, and
                            > gets a copy made, though he may have his own printer. I am assuming the
                            > paper versions come in a large format, IE sizd D drawings.
                            > >
                            > > I don't know any history of how the current "Common Sense..." got started.
                            > Did the owner buy CSD from the Wolfard estate? He is now designing his own
                            > stuff. Some seem Bolger like in style.
                            > >
                            > > I suppose many could study Bolger's work and then sketch variations that
                            > look OK. But would they be structurally sound, and seaworthy?
                            > >
                            > > I agree that PB&F will continue to have a tough time stopping this abuse
                            > of their intellectual property.
                            > >
                            > > Several years ago I bought via the web what were called unused Bolger
                            > plans for Martha Jane, and Idaho. When they arrived, they were the CSD
                            > versions. Oh, and no key.
                            > >
                            > > I also bought Hawkeye plans from PB&F. With a key.
                            > >
                            >
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.