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Re: Whalewatcher plans

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  • rkldude
    First let me say that I am in no way defending Mr. Estes. I have had a bad experience with him in the past and will never do business with him again. What I
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 29, 2013
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      First let me say that I am in no way defending Mr. Estes. I have had a bad experience with him in the past and will never do business with him again.
      What I would like to point out is that you may very well have gotten Whalewatcher plans from him but it may have been from him and not the business (CSB). If they were incomplete and you accepted them as such, then how could you say that CSB sold them to you ? If CSB sold incomplete plans then they would not be in business very long.

      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, mjpjensen@... wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > Jay
      > Mr. Estes ( Common Sense Boats) is a seller of Mr.Bolger`s Old
      > Shoe,Micro,Long Micro and Martha Jane plans, but to my knowledge has
      > never sold Whalewatcher plans.
      >
      >
      > Richard Laux,
      > I have the drawing portion of the plans.
      > I have an electronic record of all e-mails pre and post sale.
      > I have the credit card statement.
      > Jay
      > ____________________________________________________________
      > Woman is 60 But Looks 25
      > Mom publishes simple facelift trick that angered doctors...
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      >
    • m.jayjensen
      First let me say that I am in no way defending Mr. Estes. I have had a bad experience with him in the past and will never do business with him again. What I
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 29, 2013
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        First let me say that I am in no way defending Mr. Estes. I have had a
        bad experience with him in the past and will never do business with him
        again.
        What I would like to point out is that you may very well have gotten
        Whalewatcher plans from him but it may have been from him and not the
        business (CSB). If they were incomplete and you accepted them as such,
        then how could you say that CSB sold them to you ? If CSB sold incomplete
        plans then they would not be in business very long.

        The credit card company paid money to CSB.
        The plans were paid for in advance.
        When I had the electronic file printed I realized that they were of
        limited value without the key.
        Mr Estes said he had the key and would send it to me when he had the time
        to look for it. It has not happened.
        Mr Estes representing CSB does not respond to E-mails.

        How fine can a hair be split?

        Jay
        ____________________________________________________________
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      • richard laux
        I hope everyone realizes that Mr. Estes is not someone to do business with. ________________________________ From: mjpjensen@juno.com
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 29, 2013
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          I hope everyone realizes that Mr. Estes is not someone to do business with.
          From: "mjpjensen@..." <mjpjensen@...>
          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 1:58 PM
          Subject: [bolger] Whalewatcher plans
           
          First let me say that I am in no way defending Mr. Estes. I have had a
          bad experience with him in the past and will never do business with him
          again.
          What I would like to point out is that you may very well have gotten
          Whalewatcher plans from him but it may have been from him and not the
          business (CSB). If they were incomplete and you accepted them as such,
          then how could you say that CSB sold them to you ? If CSB sold incomplete
          plans then they would not be in business very long.

          The credit card company paid money to CSB.
          The plans were paid for in advance.
          When I had the electronic file printed I realized that they were of
          limited value without the key.
          Mr Estes said he had the key and would send it to me when he had the time
          to look for it. It has not happened.
          Mr Estes representing CSB does not respond to E-mails.

          How fine can a hair be split?

          Jay
          __________________________________________________________
          BlackBerry&#174 10
          Find out more about the new BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
          http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/517ec33ab95943394760st03duc
        • m.jayjensen
          Greetings, Everything seems to point to the fact that CSB is selling stolen property. As a Widows Son and an honorable man (I work at it anyway), I can not be
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 30, 2013
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            Greetings,
             
            Everything seems to point to the fact that CSB is selling stolen property. 
            As a Widows Son and an honorable man (I work at it anyway), I can not be a party to defrauding Susanne Altenburger of what she is entitled to.
            This matter will be worked out in a fair and equatable manner.
             
            Back to the beginning!
             
            I am going to build a boat that my wife and I can travel in for an extended periods of time.  Home base is on the upper Mississippi. It needs to motor well, sail in a respectable fashion, and not aggravate my wife's claustrophobia.  There was a boat I would like to hear about mentioned in Boats with An Open Mind  At the end of the article on the Sailing Schooner a reference was maid to a sailing houseboat.
            Is there any information on that plan?
             
            Best wishes,
            M. Jay Jensen
             
             

            Hello All,
            some basics are in order:
            - Phil Bolger & Friends (PB&F) has never had a legitimate commercial relationship with ‘Common Sense Boats’(CSB)
            - It is not clear to PB&F how CSB acquired copies of copies upon which their ‘offerings’ are based.
            - CSB has never presented PB&F with any royalty-checks.
            - CSB has been advised in writing by PB&F on a number of occasions that it has no authority to take our work and make money off it.
            - With CSB’s location in British Columbia, further research is underfoot to determine the role of the Provincial government in Victoria in such matters.
            - Challenges to customers emerging out of CSB’s ‘business model’ have been heard of before, with the final outcome in those cases uncertain.


            - However, Common Sense Designs (CSD) had a relationship with PB&F a long time ago, based on a personal understanding between Phil Bolger and Bernie Wolford.
            - CSD folded a long time ago, with the return of respective Mylar copies of Bolger designs back to Bolger, then and now PB&F.


            - The sole legitimate sellers of a small fraction of our design-archive remains H.H.Payson and Company, based upon a re-constructed understanding after Dynamite Payson’s death in 2010, plus WOODENBOAT Magazine continuing to offer a couple of plans drawn by Bolger.


            - Boat Designs featured in Phil’ books are not necessarily represented in all details, nor would feature any later corrections or upgrades.
            - Furthermore the process of reducing those graphics for book-format reproduction may introduce distortions apart from loss of details.
            - There have been examples of boats build ‘out of the books’, with all carrying the risk of small to larger investments based on potentially incomplete and corrupted information.


            - On the scale of any boat-building project beyond the simplest of skiffs, the investment in materials and labor typically is a vast multiple of the cost of plans.
            - In the case in point here - Design #561 “Whalewatcher” - just the value of the materials-list alone necessary to build this 29-foot hull suggests that using plans from the original creator/s and supplier/s of bona fide copies of that design-work might be the best course of action.
            - Currently plans for Design #561 incl. Building Key remain listed by Phil at $250.-

            Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
             
             
             
             


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          • m.jayjensen
            Susanne Altenburger, PB&F Dear Susanne, Would you please resend the following to me. Phil Bolger & Friends (PB&F) has never had a legitimate commercial
            Message 5 of 14 , May 1, 2013
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              Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
              Dear Susanne,
              Would you please resend the following to me.
               
               
              Phil Bolger & Friends (PB&F) has never had a legitimate commercial relationship with ‘Common Sense Boats’(CSB)
              - It is not clear to PB&F how CSB acquired copies of copies upon which their ‘offerings’ are based.
              - CSB has never presented PB&F with any royalty-checks.
              - CSB has been advised in writing by PB&F on a number of occasions that it has no authority to take our work and make money off it.
              - With CSB’s location in British Columbia, further research is underfoot to determine the role of the Provincial government in Victoria in such matters.
              - Challenges to customers emerging out of CSB’s ‘business model’ have been heard of before, with the final outcome in those cases uncertain.

              I have begun the process of trying to recover the money that was paid to CSB and a concise statement would be helpful.
               
              Best wishes,
              M. Jay Jensen 


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            • c.ruzer
              ... For a time Bernie Wolfard sold Whalewatcher plans via his Common Sense Designs Bolger plans marketing business. Late in his time with that business he also
              Message 6 of 14 , May 5, 2013
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                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, mjpjensen@... wrote:
                > Everything seems to point to the fact that CSB is selling stolen
                > property.
                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
                > - It is not clear to PB&F how CSB acquired copies of copies upon
                > which their ‘offerings’ are based.


                For a time Bernie Wolfard sold Whalewatcher plans via his Common Sense Designs Bolger plans marketing business.

                Late in his time with that business he also offered a range of 23 large and small "complex" Bolger designs, Barn Owl, Bright Thread, Kotick, Crystal, Harbinger, Victoria, Wisp, Moccasin, Sybil's Yawl, Shivaree, etc, etc, and various PCB and other article reprints.

                The criteria for selection to the Common Sense Complex Boats range was arrived at... "When I told Bolger of my plans to add a complex boats section to the Common Sense catalog he asked if I had anything like the Common Sense criteria to guide the selection as he has almost 600 designs from which to choose. I wrote him that I hadn't come up with any. Bolger suggested that we choose boats that he still liked after they were built and the owners were still friends with him. Sounded like a Common Sense criteria to me, so that is what we used to select the boats presented here. It goes without saying that each of these boats are worthy of study and contemplation as exemplary examples of the designers art. I hope you enjoy them as much as do (sic)" - Bernie Wolfard, Common Sense Design Book

                http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM2000/articles/bernie/

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/5979

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/17175

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/23670

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/7051

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/33024

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/1270

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/messages/33049?threaded=1&m=e&var=1&tidx=1

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/33029

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/17135

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/10290

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/44495

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/62073
              • m.jayjensen
                Thank you for this posting. It is very informative. M. Jay JENSEN ... For a time Bernie Wolfard sold Whalewatcher plans via his Common Sense Designs Bolger
                Message 7 of 14 , May 5, 2013
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                  Thank you for this posting.
                  It is very informative.
                  M. Jay JENSEN


                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, mjpjensen@... wrote:
                  > Everything seems to point to the fact that CSB is selling stolen
                  > property.
                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
                  > - It is not clear to PB&F how CSB acquired copies of copies upon
                  > which their ‘offerings’ are based.


                  For a time Bernie Wolfard sold Whalewatcher plans via his Common Sense
                  Designs Bolger plans marketing business.

                  Late in his time with that business he also offered a range of 23 large
                  and small "complex" Bolger designs, Barn Owl, Bright Thread, Kotick,
                  Crystal, Harbinger, Victoria, Wisp, Moccasin, Sybil's Yawl, Shivaree,
                  etc, etc, and various PCB and other article reprints.

                  The criteria for selection to the Common Sense Complex Boats range was
                  arrived at... "When I told Bolger of my plans to add a complex boats
                  section to the Common Sense catalog he asked if I had anything like the
                  Common Sense criteria to guide the selection as he has almost 600 designs
                  from which to choose. I wrote him that I hadn't come up with any. Bolger
                  suggested that we choose boats that he still liked after they were built
                  and the owners were still friends with him. Sounded like a Common Sense
                  criteria to me, so that is what we used to select the boats presented
                  here. It goes without saying that each of these boats are worthy of study
                  and contemplation as exemplary examples of the designers art. I hope you
                  enjoy them as much as do (sic)" - Bernie Wolfard, Common Sense Design
                  Book

                  ____________________________________________________________
                  New BlackBerry® Z10
                  Discover the BlackBerry Z10, built to keep you moving. Get it today.
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                • daschultz8275@sbcglobal.net
                  So according to PB&F, the mylars (high quality originals) were returned after BF passed. So it would seem the Canadian had paper dwgs scanned on a large
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 8, 2013
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                    So according to PB&F, the 'mylars' (high quality originals) were returned after BF passed.

                    So it would seem the Canadian had paper dwgs scanned on a large format scanner. The files are used to generate pdfs that he sells. My guess is if somebody pays him for a paper version, he runs down to a local printer, and gets a copy made, though he may have his own printer. I am assuming the paper versions come in a large format, IE sizd D drawings.

                    I don't know any history of how the current "Common Sense..." got started. Did the owner buy CSD from the Wolfard estate? He is now designing his own stuff. Some seem Bolger like in style.

                    I suppose many could study Bolger's work and then sketch variations that look OK. But would they be structurally sound, and seaworthy?

                    I agree that PB&F will continue to have a tough time stopping this abuse of their intellectual property.

                    Several years ago I bought via the web what were called unused Bolger plans for Martha Jane, and Idaho. When they arrived, they were the CSD versions. Oh, and no key.

                    I also bought Hawkeye plans from PB&F. With a key.
                  • Dave Gentry
                    ... Years ago, before I knew any better - and before I realized that the business no longer involved Bernie Wolfard - I bought plans for a sea kayak designed
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 9, 2013
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                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz8275@..." <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I don't know any history of how the current "Common Sense..." got >started. Did the owner buy CSD from the Wolfard estate? He is now >designing his own stuff.

                      Years ago, before I knew any better - and before I realized that the business no longer involved Bernie Wolfard - I bought plans for a sea kayak "designed" by this guy.
                      I did build it(although even back then I was looking askance at the plans), and it was, without a doubt,the worst kayak that I have ever had the displeasure to paddle. I ended up giving it away a month later, and would have been just as happy to burn it, despite having invested a lot of money and time in building it.

                      Caveat emptor, indeed.
                    • apraphett777
                      the excellent keys that Phil put in his books has been why I have been able to build so many with just the books I am a builder of smallish skiffs if I were
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 27, 2013
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                        the excellent keys that Phil put in his books has been why I have been able to build so many with just the books I am a builder of smallish skiffs if I were attempt to build a larger boat I would order plans. At some point I am hoping to build Queen Mab :)

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz8275@..." <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > So according to PB&F, the 'mylars' (high quality originals) were returned after BF passed.
                        >
                        > So it would seem the Canadian had paper dwgs scanned on a large format scanner. The files are used to generate pdfs that he sells. My guess is if somebody pays him for a paper version, he runs down to a local printer, and gets a copy made, though he may have his own printer. I am assuming the paper versions come in a large format, IE sizd D drawings.
                        >
                        > I don't know any history of how the current "Common Sense..." got started. Did the owner buy CSD from the Wolfard estate? He is now designing his own stuff. Some seem Bolger like in style.
                        >
                        > I suppose many could study Bolger's work and then sketch variations that look OK. But would they be structurally sound, and seaworthy?
                        >
                        > I agree that PB&F will continue to have a tough time stopping this abuse of their intellectual property.
                        >
                        > Several years ago I bought via the web what were called unused Bolger plans for Martha Jane, and Idaho. When they arrived, they were the CSD versions. Oh, and no key.
                        >
                        > I also bought Hawkeye plans from PB&F. With a key.
                        >
                      • mason smith
                        What Phil and Susanne call keys are not in the books, to my knowledge. You have to get the plans to get the keys, which are instructions and measurements for
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 27, 2013
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                          What Phil and Susanne call keys are not in the books, to my knowledge. You have to get the plans to get the keys, which are instructions and measurements for every numbered part in the plans, plus some more general instructions.

                           

                          From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of apraphett777
                          Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 11:52 AM
                          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [bolger] Re: Whalewatcher plans

                           

                           

                          the excellent keys that Phil put in his books has been why I have been able to build so many with just the books I am a builder of smallish skiffs if I were attempt to build a larger boat I would order plans. At some point I am hoping to build Queen Mab :)

                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz8275@..." <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > So according to PB&F, the 'mylars' (high quality originals) were returned after BF passed.
                          >
                          > So it would seem the Canadian had paper dwgs scanned on a large format scanner. The files are used to generate pdfs that he sells. My guess is if somebody pays him for a paper version, he runs down to a local printer, and gets a copy made, though he may have his own printer. I am assuming the paper versions come in a large format, IE sizd D drawings.
                          >
                          > I don't know any history of how the current "Common Sense..." got started. Did the owner buy CSD from the Wolfard estate? He is now designing his own stuff. Some seem Bolger like in style.
                          >
                          > I suppose many could study Bolger's work and then sketch variations that look OK. But would they be structurally sound, and seaworthy?
                          >
                          > I agree that PB&F will continue to have a tough time stopping this abuse of their intellectual property.
                          >
                          > Several years ago I bought via the web what were called unused Bolger plans for Martha Jane, and Idaho. When they arrived, they were the CSD versions. Oh, and no key.
                          >
                          > I also bought Hawkeye plans from PB&F. With a key.
                          >

                        • daschultz8275@sbcglobal.net
                          Well, as it turns out some of the books have the key with some of the designs, but the majority certainly do not. Most of the designs with everything you need
                          Message 12 of 14 , May 28, 2013
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                            Well, as it turns out some of the books have the key with some of the designs, but the majority certainly do not.

                            Most of the designs with everything you need are very simple, smaller boats. One of the larger more complex designs with a key is in "The Folding Schooner", a boat named "Utility for Homebuilders". I think everything is there for that design.

                            Others include details in the chapter or MAIB article, like offset tables but are missing a key, and, I believe, entire sheets of the blueprints. I s'pose one could build from the tables and other partial info, but for the few $$ on a nearly 10k$ project, why take more risks?

                            BTW stating not all the blueprints are recreated in the books is NOT a complaint. The Bolger books I have are groups of study plans with PBF's wonderful essays regarding each design. That's what I expected and received when buying the books.

                            I think PB&F makes the most important point that the plans cost is a very small part of most any project. I also agree the upgrades and corrections are very very important. Martha Jane is a very good example. The upgraded boat with a Navigator cabin and those ugly sponsons is not just roomier, it is a much safer boat.

                            Don Schultz


                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <masonsmith@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > What Phil and Susanne call keys are not in the books, to my knowledge. You
                            > have to get the plans to get the keys, which are instructions and
                            > measurements for every numbered part in the plans, plus some more general instructions...
                            >
                          • apraphett777
                            the same type of key that was in the Queen Mab plans, are in all the books I have by PhilI have all but the Novel a step by step numbering of the parts etc I
                            Message 13 of 14 , May 28, 2013
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                              the same type of key that was in the Queen Mab plans, are in all the books I have by PhilI have all but the Novel a step by step numbering of the parts etc I also have the Payson books as well all a very good education in boat building Cheers Pal

                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <masonsmith@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > What Phil and Susanne call keys are not in the books, to my knowledge. You
                              > have to get the plans to get the keys, which are instructions and
                              > measurements for every numbered part in the plans, plus some more general
                              > instructions.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                              > apraphett777
                              > Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 11:52 AM
                              > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [bolger] Re: Whalewatcher plans
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > the excellent keys that Phil put in his books has been why I have been able
                              > to build so many with just the books I am a builder of smallish skiffs if I
                              > were attempt to build a larger boat I would order plans. At some point I am
                              > hoping to build Queen Mab :)
                              >
                              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                              > "daschultz8275@" <daschultz8275@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > So according to PB&F, the 'mylars' (high quality originals) were returned
                              > after BF passed.
                              > >
                              > > So it would seem the Canadian had paper dwgs scanned on a large format
                              > scanner. The files are used to generate pdfs that he sells. My guess is if
                              > somebody pays him for a paper version, he runs down to a local printer, and
                              > gets a copy made, though he may have his own printer. I am assuming the
                              > paper versions come in a large format, IE sizd D drawings.
                              > >
                              > > I don't know any history of how the current "Common Sense..." got started.
                              > Did the owner buy CSD from the Wolfard estate? He is now designing his own
                              > stuff. Some seem Bolger like in style.
                              > >
                              > > I suppose many could study Bolger's work and then sketch variations that
                              > look OK. But would they be structurally sound, and seaworthy?
                              > >
                              > > I agree that PB&F will continue to have a tough time stopping this abuse
                              > of their intellectual property.
                              > >
                              > > Several years ago I bought via the web what were called unused Bolger
                              > plans for Martha Jane, and Idaho. When they arrived, they were the CSD
                              > versions. Oh, and no key.
                              > >
                              > > I also bought Hawkeye plans from PB&F. With a key.
                              > >
                              >
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