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RE: [bolger] Center of Effort - Balanced Lug

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  • Mason Smith
    I ve always figures Center of Effort as center of area in sail-plan view was just a natural convenient useful fiction. A more real center of effort of a sail
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 28, 2013
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      I’ve always figures Center of Effort as center of area in sail-plan view was just a natural convenient useful fiction. A more “real” center of effort of a sail might be the effective center of the pressure-differential between windward and leeward sides of the sail, the point from which you could draw a force vector that accurately represented the lift on that sail at the moment.

      But I have been truly confused about where and how that lift is transferred to the hull. Phil sometimes talks about a boat being pulled along by its sheet. And if you look at the mast hoops which might be thought to be applying the sail’s force to the mast, they’re pulling in the wrong direction. So I have come to simplify all that stuff, sheets, shrouds, hoops, and so on by considering the hull with its spars and sails, moment by moment, as a rigid unit, so that all I care about is the vector mentioned above, and how much of it can be induced to serve the interests of forward movement.

       

      The rules of thumb for location of a centerboard always make nonsense of CE, do they not? If CE meant what it says, it would obvious how to get a slight weather helm, or a balanced one.

       

      Cruzer’s many links re lugs were a terrific gift to us all! What fun to follow them. Great to learn why the dipping lug, tacked by wearing, with the whole shooting match going around forward of the mast and so never getting in the way of the work aboard, made such good sense! What a scholar we have among us.

       

      Was it Marcaj who did test several kinds of simple single sail, of the same area, on the same hull, on all points of sail, and who came up showing that the best overall was the crab-claw, second best standing lug, third spritsail, and so on? One value of that study for me was the testing all around the compass. That’s the way we actually sail, or I do.

       

      ---Mason

      From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Trussell
      Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 12:56 PM
      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [bolger] Center of Effort - Balanced Lug

       

       

      A basic rule of scientific inquiry is to limit the number of variables in the experiment. Alas, sail boats don’t work like that. If a sail boat is upright, it is reasonable to assume that it will go straight and it is easy to calculate the area/centers of underwater foils. But as the boat heels, the hull shape becomes asymmetrical (tending to turn it) and the foils lose area and efficiency. Sails are even worse. So long as they are sheeted close to the center line (where they don’t work), the center of effort is probably pretty close to the geometric center of sail area. As the sail goes out, the location of center of effort probably moves quite some distance from the geometric center of area. To further complicate the issue, add multiple sails and/or multiple masts. For an extreme example of possible variables, see what happens when you sail a Cape Cod Catboat off the wind in a rising wind (hint, it helps to have a gorilla on the tiller—a spare tiller might also be useful).

       

      Possibly a computer could factor in the effect of many variables. I’m not that smart and my approach is to copy what demonstrably works. I figure that generation of sailors before me have learned what does and doesn’t work and I have no urge to reinvent the wheel (or, to keep metaphors straight, reinvent the sail).

       

      JohnT

       


      From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sweetthug
      Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 10:37 AM
      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [bolger] Center of Effort - Balanced Lug

       

       

      There has been some discussion about lugsails, so I thought would float a question out there that I have had for a while. I'm wondering how relevant the center of the sail area is in determining the center of effort (CE). I've always seen these diagrams where the center of areas of the various sails (usually a sloop rig) and a little line drawn between them, with the CE being placed magically somewhere in between. To my mind it is not the center of the sails that matter, but the location of the mast, and how the force placed on the mast is distributed. So a standard sloop rig, with both fore and back stays will distribute the force provided by the sails fore and aft. Here the tension of the stay could change the CE, since more of the force would be placed on the stay by the sail (via the mast). There is another point where the force is distributed, and that's at the sheet, and this force will be much more important on a boomless sail, like a jib (or a dipping lug). Here the location of sheet (meaning where it is first connected to the boat) matters a good deal in terms of CE.
      But now what of the case of an unstayed, boomed rig like a balanced lug (which is the sail I will be using on my boat build). Tension on the sheet is low, so I assume that the sheet location is not very significant. So the rest of the force is focused on the mast, specifically where the yard and the boom are attached. So in this case, it appears the location and shape of the sail isn't really relevant for determining CE (imagine a kite sail attached to the boom and yard; where is the CE if the sail is a 50 ft in the air?). Without standing rigging, the mast is what makes the boat move by applying the sail force to the mast/boat connection (step and partners in my case). Is this correct? This would place the CE at or just aft of the mast on all points of sail. The reason I ask is I'm wondering how to determine where centerboard should be located.
      I have some theories as to why it appears that the CE would change as you change your point of sail. As you approach windward, it may feel like the CE is moving back and increasing weather helm. But I think the weather helm is being caused by the heeling angle of the boat increasing as you go upwind, not the changing location of the sail (which is what seems to be implied by the practise of placing the centerboard directly underneath the center of the sail area). In fact, heeling angle can be used to steer a small boat by itself, or in conjuction with sheet (maybe true on a large boat too, I have less experience there). So am I right in thinking the location of the CE fore-and-aft is essentially at the mast, and doesn't change much?
      Suhitha

    • sweetthug
      I agree with you Mason, that rule of thumb for the centerboard location must just be a useful approximation. In a sense, the boat is pulled along somewhat by
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 1, 2013
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        I agree with you Mason, that rule of thumb for the centerboard location must just be a useful approximation. In a sense, the boat is pulled along somewhat by the sheet, but I still think for the example I gave of an unstayed balanced lug, the only points where the sail is attached to the boat is the mast and the sheet. With sheet tension on the balanced lug being relatively low (due to the boom being somewhat forward of the mast), Newton would say that the tension on the sheet (before running through any blocks or anything) would be equal to the proportion of the force which is pulling the boat from the sheet/boat connection. So the rest of the torque applied by the sail will be applied to the mast. That's why I was asking if the CE location (on the lateral plane) could be approximated just behind the mast.
        Suzanne, I'm not sure why you said i'm making assumptions about the underwater profile? I was basically trying to focus on what's above the water. I suppose windage on the hull would move the CE slightly as heeling angles change, but i'm still a little confused with your response. Sorry

        Suhitha

        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mason Smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
        >
        > I've always figures Center of Effort as center of area in sail-plan view was
        > just a natural convenient useful fiction. A more "real" center of effort of
        > a sail might be the effective center of the pressure-differential between
        > windward and leeward sides of the sail, the point from which you could draw
        > a force vector that accurately represented the lift on that sail at the
        > moment.
        >
        > But I have been truly confused about where and how that lift is transferred
        > to the hull. Phil sometimes talks about a boat being pulled along by its
        > sheet. And if you look at the mast hoops which might be thought to be
        > applying the sail's force to the mast, they're pulling in the wrong
        > direction. So I have come to simplify all that stuff, sheets, shrouds,
        > hoops, and so on by considering the hull with its spars and sails, moment by
        > moment, as a rigid unit, so that all I care about is the vector mentioned
        > above, and how much of it can be induced to serve the interests of forward
        > movement.
        >
        >
        >
        > The rules of thumb for location of a centerboard always make nonsense of CE,
        > do they not? If CE meant what it says, it would obvious how to get a slight
        > weather helm, or a balanced one.
        >
        >
        >
        > Cruzer's many links re lugs were a terrific gift to us all! What fun to
        > follow them. Great to learn why the dipping lug, tacked by wearing, with the
        > whole shooting match going around forward of the mast and so never getting
        > in the way of the work aboard, made such good sense! What a scholar we have
        > among us.
        >
        >
        >
        > Was it Marcaj who did test several kinds of simple single sail, of the same
        > area, on the same hull, on all points of sail, and who came up showing that
        > the best overall was the crab-claw, second best standing lug, third
        > spritsail, and so on? One value of that study for me was the testing all
        > around the compass. That's the way we actually sail, or I do.
        >
        >
        >
        > ---Mason
        >
        > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        > John Trussell
        > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 12:56 PM
        > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [bolger] Center of Effort - Balanced Lug
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > A basic rule of scientific inquiry is to limit the number of variables in
        > the experiment. Alas, sail boats don't work like that. If a sail boat is
        > upright, it is reasonable to assume that it will go straight and it is easy
        > to calculate the area/centers of underwater foils. But as the boat heels,
        > the hull shape becomes asymmetrical (tending to turn it) and the foils lose
        > area and efficiency. Sails are even worse. So long as they are sheeted close
        > to the center line (where they don't work), the center of effort is probably
        > pretty close to the geometric center of sail area. As the sail goes out, the
        > location of center of effort probably moves quite some distance from the
        > geometric center of area. To further complicate the issue, add multiple
        > sails and/or multiple masts. For an extreme example of possible variables,
        > see what happens when you sail a Cape Cod Catboat off the wind in a rising
        > wind (hint, it helps to have a gorilla on the tiller-a spare tiller might
        > also be useful).
        >
        >
        >
        > Possibly a computer could factor in the effect of many variables. I'm not
        > that smart and my approach is to copy what demonstrably works. I figure that
        > generation of sailors before me have learned what does and doesn't work and
        > I have no urge to reinvent the wheel (or, to keep metaphors straight,
        > reinvent the sail).
        >
        >
        >
        > JohnT
        >
        >
        >
        > _____
        >
        > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        > sweetthug
        > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 10:37 AM
        > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [bolger] Center of Effort - Balanced Lug
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > There has been some discussion about lugsails, so I thought would float a
        > question out there that I have had for a while. I'm wondering how relevant
        > the center of the sail area is in determining the center of effort (CE).
        > I've always seen these diagrams where the center of areas of the various
        > sails (usually a sloop rig) and a little line drawn between them, with the
        > CE being placed magically somewhere in between. To my mind it is not the
        > center of the sails that matter, but the location of the mast, and how the
        > force placed on the mast is distributed. So a standard sloop rig, with both
        > fore and back stays will distribute the force provided by the sails fore and
        > aft. Here the tension of the stay could change the CE, since more of the
        > force would be placed on the stay by the sail (via the mast). There is
        > another point where the force is distributed, and that's at the sheet, and
        > this force will be much more important on a boomless sail, like a jib (or a
        > dipping lug). Here the location of sheet (meaning where it is first
        > connected to the boat) matters a good deal in terms of CE.
        > But now what of the case of an unstayed, boomed rig like a balanced lug
        > (which is the sail I will be using on my boat build). Tension on the sheet
        > is low, so I assume that the sheet location is not very significant. So the
        > rest of the force is focused on the mast, specifically where the yard and
        > the boom are attached. So in this case, it appears the location and shape of
        > the sail isn't really relevant for determining CE (imagine a kite sail
        > attached to the boom and yard; where is the CE if the sail is a 50 ft in the
        > air?). Without standing rigging, the mast is what makes the boat move by
        > applying the sail force to the mast/boat connection (step and partners in my
        > case). Is this correct? This would place the CE at or just aft of the mast
        > on all points of sail. The reason I ask is I'm wondering how to determine
        > where centerboard should be located.
        > I have some theories as to why it appears that the CE would change as you
        > change your point of sail. As you approach windward, it may feel like the CE
        > is moving back and increasing weather helm. But I think the weather helm is
        > being caused by the heeling angle of the boat increasing as you go upwind,
        > not the changing location of the sail (which is what seems to be implied by
        > the practise of placing the centerboard directly underneath the center of
        > the sail area). In fact, heeling angle can be used to steer a small boat by
        > itself, or in conjuction with sheet (maybe true on a large boat too, I have
        > less experience there). So am I right in thinking the location of the CE
        > fore-and-aft is essentially at the mast, and doesn't change much?
        > Suhitha
        >
      • phil.bolger
        I could have phrased this better... The point was/is that what goes on under water is very relevant to what we believe we get to observe (perhaps even to
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 1, 2013
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          I could have phrased this better... 
          The point was/is that what goes on under water is very relevant to what we believe we get to observe (perhaps even to presumably final conclusions) above water across the whole spectrum of wind-conditions, hull-direction, angles of heel etc.

          One example:  Modern wide-sterned hulls which 'fall over their lee-bow' when heeling and thus misaligning their hull-centerline and fin-keels with the (seeming) direction of their rig, with these forces apparently fighting each other - an inherently undesirable state of affairs. 

          Then there are certain empirical-evidence-based ideas on where the Centers-of-Lateral Plane versus Center-of-Effort across a range of rigs and hulls are/ought to be.

          And beyond those there may be more questions: 
          Phil and I discussed this a fair bit as to whether a rudder should be loaded up with some lateral-plane-duty but with the tiller right along centerline for least drag, to then 'give' if let go i.e. with the hull turning into the wind when the tiller is relieved.  The assumption here was/is to find the best combination of underwater lateral-plane area effectiveness in combination with the rudder-function versus overall drag. 

          Some schools of thought suggest that the rudder should be loaded more to require the tiller pulled to windward well across centerline. 

          Others might argue that it should have little to no load until it just 'rides along' doing not lateral-plane-duty at all. 

          And then there are the odd hulls (medieval Kogges, it seems) whose rudder was apparently well-enveloped in eddies to not give you much 'reading' at all as they found after one perfect replica was put to sea...

          A lot going on, with new designs often requiring some 'tweaking' when used in 3-D unless they are near-exact copies of some predecessor such as in the 'standard-issue' production sloop context...  We came to leave more and more room for adjustments above and below water if at all possible, since on different courses and wind- and sea-conditions the static 'balance' is usually gone off the nice paper-centers. 

          Ergo Phil's frequent use of two-masted rigs starting with the often very simple Yawl-rig, often combined with shallow hulls with variable depth lateral plane solutions through lee-boards, center-boards, tandem-boards, bilge-boards etc.  In some recent liveaboard cruisers we left room in the centerboard to relocate the board fore or aft a few.  On some very shallow types we used the complication of double rudders to allow more control for the given draft etc, etc.       

          Susanne Altenburger, PB&F 
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: sweetthug
          Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 10:12 AM
          Subject: [bolger] Re: Center of Effort - Balanced Lug

           

          I agree with you Mason, that rule of thumb for the centerboard location must just be a useful approximation. In a sense, the boat is pulled along somewhat by the sheet, but I still think for the example I gave of an unstayed balanced lug, the only points where the sail is attached to the boat is the mast and the sheet. With sheet tension on the balanced lug being relatively low (due to the boom being somewhat forward of the mast), Newton would say that the tension on the sheet (before running through any blocks or anything) would be equal to the proportion of the force which is pulling the boat from the sheet/boat connection. So the rest of the torque applied by the sail will be applied to the mast. That's why I was asking if the CE location (on the lateral plane) could be approximated just behind the mast.
          Suzanne, I'm not sure why you said i'm making assumptions about the underwater profile? I was basically trying to focus on what's above the water. I suppose windage on the hull would move the CE slightly as heeling angles change, but i'm still a little confused with your response. Sorry

          Suhitha

          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mason Smith" wrote:
          >
          > I've always figures Center of Effort as center of area in sail-plan view was
          > just a natural convenient useful fiction. A more "real" center of effort of
          > a sail might be the effective center of the pressure-differential between
          > windward and leeward sides of the sail, the point from which you could draw
          > a force vector that accurately represented the lift on that sail at the
          > moment.
          >
          > But I have been truly confused about where and how that lift is transferred
          > to the hull. Phil sometimes talks about a boat being pulled along by its
          > sheet. And if you look at the mast hoops which might be thought to be
          > applying the sail's force to the mast, they're pulling in the wrong
          > direction. So I have come to simplify all that stuff, sheets, shrouds,
          > hoops, and so on by considering the hull with its spars and sails, moment by
          > moment, as a rigid unit, so that all I care about is the vector mentioned
          > above, and how much of it can be induced to serve the interests of forward
          > movement.
          >
          >
          >
          > The rules of thumb for location of a centerboard always make nonsense of CE,
          > do they not? If CE meant what it says, it would obvious how to get a slight
          > weather helm, or a balanced one.
          >
          >
          >
          > Cruzer's many links re lugs were a terrific gift to us all! What fun to
          > follow them. Great to learn why the dipping lug, tacked by wearing, with the
          > whole shooting match going around forward of the mast and so never getting
          > in the way of the work aboard, made such good sense! What a scholar we have
          > among us.
          >
          >
          >
          > Was it Marcaj who did test several kinds of simple single sail, of the same
          > area, on the same hull, on all points of sail, and who came up showing that
          > the best overall was the crab-claw, second best standing lug, third
          > spritsail, and so on? One value of that study for me was the testing all
          > around the compass. That's the way we actually sail, or I do.
          >
          >
          >
          > ---Mason
          >
          > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          > John Trussell
          > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 12:56 PM
          > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: RE: [bolger] Center of Effort - Balanced Lug
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > A basic rule of scientific inquiry is to limit the number of variables in
          > the experiment. Alas, sail boats don't work like that. If a sail boat is
          > upright, it is reasonable to assume that it will go straight and it is easy
          > to calculate the area/centers of underwater foils. But as the boat heels,
          > the hull shape becomes asymmetrical (tending to turn it) and the foils lose
          > area and efficiency. Sails are even worse. So long as they are sheeted close
          > to the center line (where they don't work), the center of effort is probably
          > pretty close to the geometric center of sail area. As the sail goes out, the
          > location of center of effort probably moves quite some distance from the
          > geometric center of area. To further complicate the issue, add multiple
          > sails and/or multiple masts. For an extreme example of possible variables,
          > see what happens when you sail a Cape Cod Catboat off the wind in a rising
          > wind (hint, it helps to have a gorilla on the tiller-a spare tiller might
          > also be useful).
          >
          >
          >
          > Possibly a computer could factor in the effect of many variables. I'm not
          > that smart and my approach is to copy what demonstrably works. I figure that
          > generation of sailors before me have learned what does and doesn't work and
          > I have no urge to reinvent the wheel (or, to keep metaphors straight,
          > reinvent the sail).
          >
          >
          >
          > JohnT
          >
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          > sweetthug
          > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 10:37 AM
          > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [bolger] Center of Effort - Balanced Lug
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > There has been some discussion about lugsails, so I thought would float a
          > question out there that I have had for a while. I'm wondering how relevant
          > the center of the sail area is in determining the center of effort (CE).
          > I've always seen these diagrams where the center of areas of the various
          > sails (usually a sloop rig) and a little line drawn between them, with the
          > CE being placed magically somewhere in between. To my mind it is not the
          > center of the sails that matter, but the location of the mast, and how the
          > force placed on the mast is distributed. So a standard sloop rig, with both
          > fore and back stays will distribute the force provided by the sails fore and
          > aft. Here the tension of the stay could change the CE, since more of the
          > force would be placed on the stay by the sail (via the mast). There is
          > another point where the force is distributed, and that's at the sheet, and
          > this force will be much more important on a boomless sail, like a jib (or a
          > dipping lug). Here the location of sheet (meaning where it is first
          > connected to the boat) matters a good deal in terms of CE.
          > But now what of the case of an unstayed, boomed rig like a balanced lug
          > (which is the sail I will be using on my boat build). Tension on the sheet
          > is low, so I assume that the sheet location is not very significant. So the
          > rest of the force is focused on the mast, specifically where the yard and
          > the boom are attached. So in this case, it appears the location and shape of
          > the sail isn't really relevant for determining CE (imagine a kite sail
          > attached to the boom and yard; where is the CE if the sail is a 50 ft in the
          > air?). Without standing rigging, the mast is what makes the boat move by
          > applying the sail force to the mast/boat connection (step and partners in my
          > case). Is this correct? This would place the CE at or just aft of the mast
          > on all points of sail. The reason I ask is I'm wondering how to determine
          > where centerboard should be located.
          > I have some theories as to why it appears that the CE would change as you
          > change your point of sail. As you approach windward, it may feel like the CE
          > is moving back and increasing weather helm. But I think the weather helm is
          > being caused by the heeling angle of the boat increasing as you go upwind,
          > not the changing location of the sail (which is what seems to be implied by
          > the practise of placing the centerboard directly underneath the center of
          > the sail area). In fact, heeling angle can be used to steer a small boat by
          > itself, or in conjuction with sheet (maybe true on a large boat too, I have
          > less experience there). So am I right in thinking the location of the CE
          > fore-and-aft is essentially at the mast, and doesn't change much?
          > Suhitha
          >

        • c.ruzer
          ... Due to the lever arm, effective load, and fulcrum... and, is it boom forward or mast aft? A boom of similar length might be in the very same position with
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 1, 2013
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            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "sweetthug" <sedirisinghe@...> wrote:

            >With sheet tension on the balanced lug being relatively low (due to
            > the boom being somewhat forward of the mast),


            Due to the lever arm, effective load, and fulcrum... and, is it boom forward or mast aft? A boom of similar length might be in the very same position with the sail rigged differently.


            > Newton would say that the tension on the sheet (before running
            > through any blocks or anything)


            Newton (or is it Euler?, etc?) might remind that it still must run through angles! At the attachment point of the rigid boat the tension or instantaneous (static) resultant force vector aligned with the sheet (can't much push or slide a flexible line) can be broken down into various sized force components, or vectors, pulling in varying directions in three dimensions.


            > would be equal to the proportion of the force which is pulling the
            > boat from the sheet/boat connection.

            Sheet load at the "sheet/boat connection" is transferred to various load pathways through the hull, but "the force which is pulling the boat from the sheet/boat connection" actually is fully "the tension on the sheet (before running through any blocks or anything)" and thus is not proportional.


            > So the rest of the torque applied by the sail will be applied to
            > the mast.


            The wind fills the sail. The sail cloth is in tension. At some point on the sail all the instantaneous aerodynamic forces across both sides of the sail that cause tension in the fabric are in cumulative balance - the centre of effort. The cumulative force at the coe acts in a direction normal to the tangent of sail curvature there. The cumulative or net sail force vector can be broken down into component vectors of sideways and drive, etc. The tensile force transferred from the coe to the anchorage points of the sail (ie. discounting any imposed strains, eg. outhaul) is proportional to their distance from the sail coe. The tensile or otherwise (spar compression, etc) force transferred from the sail rig to its attachment points on the boat is likewise proportional. The relative loads and load pathways from those attachment points to the cumulative point of balance between the coe and clr determines "torque" or rig dependent yawing force contributing to weather helm. The alteration in load pathways when a boom (or anything serving more or less similarly) is fitted to loose-footed sails like a D'lug or Sprits'l accounts for decreased weather helm and improved off wind performance more so than any change in sail force transferred at the clew.


            > That's why I was asking if the CE location (on the lateral plane)
            > could be approximated just behind the mast.


            It's comparatively closer to the mast on B'lug rigs than on some other low aspect quadrilateral rigs as the mast is further aft relative to the sail.


            > Suzanne, I'm not sure why you said i'm making assumptions about the
            > underwater profile?


            You mentioned "torque". What resists it?


            > I was basically trying to focus on what's above the water.


            What's above and below the water plane is not only connected physically it all interacts dynamically. That's why the B'lug sail and board on a small una rigged skiff are where they are.


            > I suppose windage on the hull would move the CE slightly as heeling
            > angles change, but i'm still a little confused with your response.


            Heeling might adversly affect drive and leeway, so vmg, and "torque" etc.
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