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Re: Oldshoe / Japanese beach cruiser

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  • gravelyrider
    when spring gets to upstate ny i ll let you know how my Oldshoe with lug rig works. the mast is a lot easier to transport than the 19 footer originally
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 25, 2013
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      when spring gets to upstate ny i'll let you know how my Oldshoe with lug rig works. the mast is a lot easier to transport than the 19 footer originally planned for.

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/1239860332/pic/624499304/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc


      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
      >
      > 4 years ago I built Oldshoe which has been much enjoyed and well sailed. I am coming round to a major maintenance and wondering whether to order a suit of sails to replace the polytarp ones I have used until now. In all fairness I love the boat and the way it works for what it is.
      >
      > Sitting in my dreaming chair the other day I was struck yet again when reading BWAOM by the similarity in size and layout between these two designs and started thinking (always dangerous). I first was tempted to take the JBC rig which would be so much easier to transport and rig than Oldshoes. I then went on to notice that JBC does not have the well in the bow and stern, thereby effectively sailing in her full length rather than a 8.5' watertight envelope within a 12' boat. Then, of course the leeboards are great fun and so on and so forth.
      >
      > Any ideas on how the JBC rig would go with Oldshoe keeping the keel and inboard. Rudder? I don't fancy taking the lead keel off to experiment with leeboards... (At least yet).
      >
      > David
      > Santiago, Chile
      > (Studying my AS39 plans)
      >
    • David
      What size is the balanced lug? Its Coe is a lot further aft than the original. It will be interesting to see how she sails. Do you intend to keep the mizzen?
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 26, 2013
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        What size is the balanced lug? Its Coe is a lot further aft than the original. It will be interesting to see how she sails.

        Do you intend to keep the mizzen?

        David

        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "gravelyrider" <denandel01@...> wrote:
        >
        > when spring gets to upstate ny i'll let you know how my Oldshoe with lug rig works. the mast is a lot easier to transport than the 19 footer originally planned for.
        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/1239860332/pic/624499304/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
        >
        >
        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@> wrote:
        > >
        > > 4 years ago I built Oldshoe which has been much enjoyed and well sailed. I am coming round to a major maintenance and wondering whether to order a suit of sails to replace the polytarp ones I have used until now. In all fairness I love the boat and the way it works for what it is.
        > >
        > > Sitting in my dreaming chair the other day I was struck yet again when reading BWAOM by the similarity in size and layout between these two designs and started thinking (always dangerous). I first was tempted to take the JBC rig which would be so much easier to transport and rig than Oldshoes. I then went on to notice that JBC does not have the well in the bow and stern, thereby effectively sailing in her full length rather than a 8.5' watertight envelope within a 12' boat. Then, of course the leeboards are great fun and so on and so forth.
        > >
        > > Any ideas on how the JBC rig would go with Oldshoe keeping the keel and inboard. Rudder? I don't fancy taking the lead keel off to experiment with leeboards... (At least yet).
        > >
        > > David
        > > Santiago, Chile
        > > (Studying my AS39 plans)
        > >
        >
      • gravelyrider
        The lug sail is a 74 sq ft, just about the same size as the original LOM. The COE is in the same place as the original so I hope there will not be any major
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 26, 2013
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          The lug sail is a 74 sq ft, just about the same size as the original LOM.

          The COE is in the same place as the original so I hope there will not be any major issues sailing her. Since the pic was taken, I have adjusted the mast a little more upright. The mizzen is staying.

          See this photo to show the new sail COE lined up over the old COE.


          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/1239860332/pic/764333064/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc


          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
          >
          > What size is the balanced lug? Its Coe is a lot further aft than the original. It will be interesting to see how she sails.
          >
          > Do you intend to keep the mizzen?
          >
          > David
          >
          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "gravelyrider" <denandel01@> wrote:
          > >
          > > when spring gets to upstate ny i'll let you know how my Oldshoe with lug rig works. the mast is a lot easier to transport than the 19 footer originally planned for.
          > >
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/1239860332/pic/624499304/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > 4 years ago I built Oldshoe which has been much enjoyed and well sailed. I am coming round to a major maintenance and wondering whether to order a suit of sails to replace the polytarp ones I have used until now. In all fairness I love the boat and the way it works for what it is.
          > > >
          > > > Sitting in my dreaming chair the other day I was struck yet again when reading BWAOM by the similarity in size and layout between these two designs and started thinking (always dangerous). I first was tempted to take the JBC rig which would be so much easier to transport and rig than Oldshoes. I then went on to notice that JBC does not have the well in the bow and stern, thereby effectively sailing in her full length rather than a 8.5' watertight envelope within a 12' boat. Then, of course the leeboards are great fun and so on and so forth.
          > > >
          > > > Any ideas on how the JBC rig would go with Oldshoe keeping the keel and inboard. Rudder? I don't fancy taking the lead keel off to experiment with leeboards... (At least yet).
          > > >
          > > > David
          > > > Santiago, Chile
          > > > (Studying my AS39 plans)
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Dave Gentry
          ... Just wanted to say that the balanced lug rig looks good on the Old Shoe - and is likely just what that boat needs to make it more user friendly. Looking
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 26, 2013
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            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "gravelyrider" <denandel01@...> wrote:
            >
            > when spring gets to upstate ny i'll let you know how my Oldshoe with lug rig works. the mast is a lot easier to transport than the 19 footer originally planned for.
            >
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/1239860332/pic/624499304/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

            Just wanted to say that the balanced lug rig looks good on the Old Shoe - and is likely just what that boat needs to make it more user friendly. Looking forward to hearing how it works out!

            Good luck - Dave Gentry
          • frank raisin
            hi folks,just a thought - but i find i have gone off lugs and balanced lugs unless they are easily controlled. when it all starts getting a bit unsettling, i
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 27, 2013
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              hi folks,
              just a thought - but i find i have gone off lugs and balanced lugs unless they are easily controlled.  when it all starts getting a bit unsettling, i don't want a loose log up there in the sky banging around wanting to brain me - and another thing with most 'hoist a spar' rigs that ups my anxiety stakes is that as one eases the sheet when hard pressed they tend , instead of relaxing progressively, they can power up even more!  the popular sprit rig seems worst in this regard - like trying to go to windward with a parachute spinnaker, it powers up as you ease the sheet - then dumps the power all at once and flogs - most disconcerting!

              i was brought up on fully battened Bermudan mains - most civilized -  not only did the stress reduce progressively and proportionally as the sheet was eased but the full battens reduced the flogging (but i have experienced a gust so heavy it caused the battened main to flog - and so heavily it pulled me over - .....)

              i think that Phil was sensible to prefer leg o' mutton because they tend to self-tend and progressively feather off at the top.  they are long enough in the foot to have enough power in a simple sail , and the mast , though long, is heavily tapered (theoretically it can taper to nothing - or just enough to tie off to).  in the usual application of minimal sophistication this rig is all round forgiving (IMVHO!) - and the sprit boom further removes the risks of being clubbed

              frank (didn't mean to rant)

              ps just to complete my thesis i would suggest that the Fully Battened Bermudan is the natural fulfillment of the (misguidedly popular IMO) Junk rig.  - just don't use a bolt rope in a track - use slides or lacing so it dowses.

              > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              > From: alias1719@...
              > Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 21:32:57 +0000
              > Subject: [bolger] Re: Oldshoe / Japanese beach cruiser
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "gravelyrider" <denandel01@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > when spring gets to upstate ny i'll let you know how my Oldshoe with lug rig works. the mast is a lot easier to transport than the 19 footer originally planned for.
              > >
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/1239860332/pic/624499304/view?picmode=&amp;mode=tn&amp;order=ordinal&amp;start=1&amp;count=20&amp;dir=asc
              >
              > Just wanted to say that the balanced lug rig looks good on the Old Shoe - and is likely just what that boat needs to make it more user friendly. Looking forward to hearing how it works out!
              >
              > Good luck - Dave Gentry
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Bolger rules!!!
              > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
              > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
              > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
              > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
              > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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            • John Trussell
              There is no free lunch. Bermuda mains require a longer mast. With a conventional boom, they generally require a boom vang. A sprit boom is a marvelous
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 28, 2013
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                There is no free lunch.

                 

                Bermuda mains require a longer mast. With a conventional boom, they generally require a boom vang. A sprit boom is a marvelous solution, but if you reef a sail with a sprit boom, the boom moves forward where it will interfere with a jib. Lowering any sail with a spar at its head can be a challenge, particularly in a breeze. In the case of lug sails, this can be made easier if the boat has lazy jacks, but the lazy jacks are a complication, requiring a little bit of hardware and quite a lot of line. I prefer a lug on small boats because it is efficient and fairly well behaved off the wind. Sprit sails use short spars which are easily stored and they are difficult to control off the wind. Pulling a sprit out of the sail on a breezy day can be a challenge, but a brailing line will take the stress out of this process. But nothing is perfect. Everything has its advantages and disadvantages. Each of us place different values on the advantages and disadvantages. The only valid reason to build your own boat (other than whatever pleasure you get from the process) is to have a boat that suits/pleases you. Build whichever rig you like.

                 

                Anyone contemplating changing rigs would do well to read Jim Michalak’s essays on figuring centers of sail area, PCB’s 100 Small Boat Rigs, and David Nichol’s The Working Guide to Traditional Small-Boat Sails.

                 

                Have fun.

                 

                JohnT

                 


                From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto: bolger@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of frank raisin
                Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 7:44 PM
                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Oldshoe / Japanese beach cruiser

                 

                 

                hi folks,

                just a thought - but i find i have gone off lugs and balanced lugs unless they are easily controlled.  when it all starts getting a bit unsettling, i don't want a loose log up there in the sky banging around wanting to brain me - and another thing with most 'hoist a spar' rigs that ups my anxiety stakes is that as one eases the sheet when hard pressed they tend , instead of relaxing progressively, they can power up even more!  the popular sprit rig seems worst in this regard - like trying to go to windward with a parachute spinnaker, it powers up as you ease the sheet - then dumps the power all at once and flogs - most disconcerting!

                 

                i was brought up on fully battened Bermudan mains - most civilized -  not only did the stress reduce progressively and proportionally as the sheet was eased but the full battens reduced the flogging (but i have experienced a gust so heavy it caused the battened main to flog - and so heavily it pulled me over - .....)

                 

                i think that Phil was sensible to prefer leg o' mutton because they tend to self-tend and progressively feather off at the top.  they are long enough in the foot to have enough power in a simple sail , and the mast , though long, is heavily tapered (theoretically it can taper to nothing - or just enough to tie off to).  in the usual application of minimal sophistication this rig is all round forgiving (IMVHO!) - and the sprit boom further removes the risks of being clubbed

                 

                frank (didn't mean to rant)

                 

                ps just to complete my thesis i would suggest that the Fully Battened Bermudan is the natural fulfillment of the (misguidedly popular IMO) Junk rig.  - just don't use a bolt rope in a track - use slides or lacing so it dowses.

                > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com

                > From: alias1719@...
                > Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 21:32:57 +0000
                > Subject: [bolger] Re: Oldshoe / Japanese beach cruiser
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com ,
                "gravelyrider" <denandel01@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > when spring gets to upstate ny i'll let you know how my Oldshoe with
                lug rig works. the mast is a lot easier to transport than the 19 footer originally planned for.
                > >
                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/1239860332/pic/624499304/view?picmode=&amp;mode=tn&amp;order=ordinal&amp;start=1&amp;count=20&amp;dir=asc
                >
                > Just wanted to say that the balanced lug rig looks good on the Old Shoe -
                and is likely just what that boat needs to make it more user friendly. Looking forward to hearing how it works out!
                >
                > Good luck - Dave Gentry
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Bolger rules!!!
                > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
                horses
                > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O.
                Box 1209 , Gloucester , MA , 01930 , Fax: (978) 282-1349
                > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo!
                Groups Links
                >
                > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
                >
                > <*> Your email settings:
                > Individual Email | Traditional
                >
                > <*> To change settings online go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/join
                > (Yahoo! ID required)
                >
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                > bolger-digest@yahoogroups.com
                > bolger-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
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                >
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                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >

              • MylesJ. Swift
                Frank, I ve never wanted a regular lug rig with that heavy flail looking for someone to hit. The late model balanced lugs are different. With both booms
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 28, 2013
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                  Frank,

                   

                  I’ve never wanted a regular lug rig with that heavy flail looking for someone to hit. The late model balanced lugs are different. With both booms captured to the mast and light high strength booms they aren’t so dangerous.  Some of those run 6:1 purchases even on sails under 100 square feet.

                   

                  MylesJ

                • Mike Graf
                  Good points all! I d have to agree on the lug choice. Just talked to a fellow sailor. She ran a Chebaco up and down the New England coast with an _undersized_
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 2, 2013
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                    Good points all!  I'd have to agree on the lug choice. Just talked to a fellow sailor. She ran a Chebaco up and down the New England coast with an undersized lug and had great luck with it She rigged it w/Mat Laden?? Home made Boom roller....said it worked great. She had a very undersized electric outboard so she really did SAIL THE COAST
                     Her insightful comment was "It seems like it's more common to have to much wind than not enough" Smaller sails are always easier to handle
                        Conditions /needs are alway local  New England Coast...good wind?...slippery Bolger hull(cause it wasn't his rig) Bolger believed in a generous rig..that's one of the reasons his boats are so fast!
                        And then maybe the most valuable component was her ability/gumption to take the summer to mess around in a not so small boat    Great Fun

                    On 02/28/2013 07:51 AM, John Trussell wrote:
                     

                    There is no free lunch.

                     

                    Bermuda mains require a longer mast. With a conventional boom, they generally require a boom vang. A sprit boom is a marvelous solution, but if you reef a sail with a sprit boom, the boom moves forward where it will interfere with a jib. Lowering any sail with a spar at its head can be a challenge, particularly in a breeze. In the case of lug sails, this can be made easier if the boat has lazy jacks, but the lazy jacks are a complication, requiring a little bit of hardware and quite a lot of line. I prefer a lug on small boats because it is efficient and fairly well behaved off the wind. Sprit sails use short spars which are easily stored and they are difficult to control off the wind. Pulling a sprit out of the sail on a breezy day can be a challenge, but a brailing line will take the stress out of this process. But nothing is perfect. Everything has its advantages and disadvantages. Each of us place different values on the advantages and disadvantages. The only valid reason to build your own boat (other than whatever pleasure you get from the process) is to have a boat that suits/pleases you. Build whichever rig you like.

                     

                    Anyone contemplating changing rigs would do well to read Jim Michalak’s essays on figuring centers of sail area, PCB’s 100 Small Boat Rigs, and David Nichol’s The Working Guide to Traditional Small-Boat Sails.

                     

                    Have fun.

                     

                    JohnT

                     


                    From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of frank raisin
                    Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 7:44 PM
                    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Oldshoe / Japanese beach cruiser

                     

                     

                    hi folks,

                    just a thought - but i find i have gone off lugs and balanced lugs unless they are easily controlled.  when it all starts getting a bit unsettling, i don't want a loose log up there in the sky banging around wanting to brain me - and another thing with most 'hoist a spar' rigs that ups my anxiety stakes is that as one eases the sheet when hard pressed they tend , instead of relaxing progressively, they can power up even more!  the popular sprit rig seems worst in this regard - like trying to go to windward with a parachute spinnaker, it powers up as you ease the sheet - then dumps the power all at once and flogs - most disconcerting!

                     

                    i was brought up on fully battened Bermudan mains - most civilized -  not only did the stress reduce progressively and proportionally as the sheet was eased but the full battens reduced the flogging (but i have experienced a gust so heavy it caused the battened main to flog - and so heavily it pulled me over - .....)

                     

                    i think that Phil was sensible to prefer leg o' mutton because they tend to self-tend and progressively feather off at the top.  they are long enough in the foot to have enough power in a simple sail , and the mast , though long, is heavily tapered (theoretically it can taper to nothing - or just enough to tie off to).  in the usual application of minimal sophistication this rig is all round forgiving (IMVHO!) - and the sprit boom further removes the risks of being clubbed

                     

                    frank (didn't mean to rant)

                     

                    ps just to complete my thesis i would suggest that the Fully Battened Bermudan is the natural fulfillment of the (misguidedly popular IMO) Junk rig.  - just don't use a bolt rope in a track - use slides or lacing so it dowses.

                    > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                    > From: alias1719@...
                    > Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 21:32:57 +0000
                    > Subject: [bolger] Re: Oldshoe / Japanese beach cruiser
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com , "gravelyrider" <denandel01@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > when spring gets to upstate ny i'll let you know how my Oldshoe with lug rig works. the mast is a lot easier to transport than the 19 footer originally planned for.
                    > >
                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/1239860332/pic/624499304/view?picmode=&amp;mode=tn&amp;order=ordinal&amp;start=1&amp;count=20&amp;dir=asc
                    >
                    > Just wanted to say that the balanced lug rig looks good on the Old Shoe - and is likely just what that boat needs to make it more user friendly. Looking forward to hearing how it works out!
                    >
                    > Good luck - Dave Gentry
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Bolger rules!!!
                    > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                    > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                    > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                    > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                    > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O.Box 1209 , Gloucester , MA , 01930 , Fax: (978) 282-1349
                    > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
                    >
                    > <*> Your email settings:
                    > Individual Email | Traditional
                    >
                    > <*> To change settings online go to:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/join
                    > (Yahoo! ID required)
                    >
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                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >


                  • Rob Kellock
                    I ve used a battened shaped polytarp balanced lug on my Michalak Philsboat for many seasons now. I use a peak halyard to control the yard when lowering the
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 2, 2013
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                      I've used a battened shaped polytarp balanced lug on my Michalak Philsboat for many seasons now. I use a peak halyard to control the yard when lowering the sail and lazyjacks to hold the sail bundle. The light battens (there's just two of them) do double duty as reefing points and are attached to the mast with fixed parrels.

                      I've found the rig to be very well behaved on all points of sail and with that large wall of sail let out 90 degrees downwind the boat flys. The battens and fixed parrels ensure that the sail doesn't billow
                      when it's being lowered and also keep the strain on the polytarp fabric down so that it doesn't stretch.

                      A lot of polytarp sails are simply rags put up on a stick, but with a bit of thought your homebuilt sail can be effective. Over the years, I've taken a number of experienced sailors out. They come away scratching their heads at the utility, all round performance and power of a rig that they invariably pre-judge as being a toy.

                      Here's a YouTube video of her in action. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db2Jo9QAI3Y

                      Cheers,


                      Rob.

                      > frank (didn't mean to rant)
                      > ps just to complete my thesis i would suggest that the Fully Battened Bermudan is the natural fulfillment of the (misguidedly popular IMO) Junk rig. - just don't use a bolt rope in a track - use slides or lacing so it dowses.
                      >
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