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Re: [bolger] paul fisher's loose moose 11 and phil bolger's loose moose 11

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  • Douglas Pollard
    AS far as I know Loose Moose is an extended Jessie Cooper which originally was a bolger design. They changed her some with Schooner rig lee-boards and likely
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 12, 2013
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      AS far as I know Loose Moose is an extended Jessie Cooper which originally was a bolger design.  They changed her some with Schooner rig lee-boards and likely some other changes.  I would guess that neither would have been Mr. Bolgers preferd set up.  Maybe someone else designed those features????               Doug



      On 02/12/2013 06:33 PM, Dan Burrill wrote:
       

      I don't know for definite, but my guess would be that both designers were asked to design a boat to the same specification, and the Wise's built the one they preferred.

      On 12/02/2013 23:24, Jim wrote:
       

      Does anyone know why two designers both claim to have designed the boat? I seems, from published pictures, that the design the Wise's built was the Bolger design.




      -- 
                       Doug Pollard, 
            Sailor, Machinst, writer,artist 
                      Visit me at:
           
           http://sailboatsfairandfine.blogspot.com/
           
    • Jim
      ... Thanks to all, and especially mr. and mrs. Wise.
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 12, 2013
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        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "loosemoosefilmworks" wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Pretty much...
        >
        > We asked Phil to design Loose Moose 2 but he told us that he had a huge backlog and could not get to it for a few years. As a result we commissioned Selway Fisher to design a boat for us...
        >
        > We were all set to build the Selway Fisher design except the boat occupying our building site was not quite ready to launch and the Selway Fisher design, under second thought, was looking less and less like the boat we actually wanted...
        >
        > So we wrote Phil as something of a hail Mary and, as it happened, he had just had someone cancel and had a hole in his schedule.
        >
        > A couple of months later we had the plans Phil drew for the real Loose Moose 2 and less than a year later we were sailing it.
        >
        > Best thing we ever did!
        >
        > Bob & Sheila
        >
        Thanks to all, and especially mr. and mrs. Wise.
      • Matthew Long
        I don t think that s right, there may be a spiritual connection with Jessie Cooper but Loose Moose is definitely its own unique design.
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 13, 2013
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          I don't think that's right, there may be a spiritual connection with Jessie Cooper but Loose Moose is definitely its own unique design.

          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Pollard wrote:
          >
          > AS far as I know Loose Moose is an extended Jessie Cooper which
          > originally was a bolger design. They changed her some with Schooner rig
          > lee-boards and likely some other changes. I would guess that neither
          > would have been Mr. Bolgers preferd set up. Maybe someone else designed
          > those features???? Doug
        • Douglas Pollard
          Yeah Mathew in a sense you are right they are different designs, but are they really. I grew up sailing sharpies and I would have never in my wildest dream
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 13, 2013
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            Yeah Mathew in a sense you are right they are different designs, but are they really.  I grew up sailing sharpies and I would have never in my wildest dream thought anyone would would build a square sided box add a flat bottom with rocker and a chine that created so little drag and then add a barge type bow. You could say well it's just a box and that is the genius of Mr Bolger.  Nobody in their right mind befor him would have ever suggested that you could go to sea in such a boat.   Both boats have these same features in common and they are the things that make the boats sharpies. I think a huge part of Mr. Bolgers designs is that you can say , well hell that's nothing but a square box and the next thing you say is man look at her sail and anyone that knows which end of a screwdriver to look through can build her.             Doug

            On 02/13/2013 05:56 AM, Matthew Long wrote:
             

            I don't think that's right, there may be a spiritual connection with Jessie Cooper but Loose Moose is definitely its own unique design.

            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Pollard wrote:
            >
            > AS far as I know Loose Moose is an extended Jessie Cooper which
            > originally was a bolger design. They changed her some with Schooner rig
            > lee-boards and likely some other changes. I would guess that neither
            > would have been Mr. Bolgers preferd set up. Maybe someone else designed
            > those features???? Doug



            -- 
                             Doug Pollard, 
                  Sailor, Machinst, writer,artist 
                            Visit me at:
                 
                 http://sailboatsfairandfine.blogspot.com/
                 
          • David
            My understanding is that Loose Moose is Bob & Sheila Wise s name for their boat (and business among other things). Loose Moose was a Jessie Cooper, Loose Moose
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 14, 2013
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              My understanding is that Loose Moose is Bob & Sheila Wise's name for their boat (and business among other things). Loose Moose was a Jessie Cooper, Loose Moose II was the Bolger AS39, I assume Loose Moose III or IV is their current boat and that Loose Moose IV or V will be the next one. Fisher's Loose Moose was a design for the Wise's but no relation to Bolger's. The size of boat was defined by the client requirements and I presume that the general style from the construction constraints/experience with Jessie Cooper. However, I see no more connection between them than between Bolger's Apogee and Chuck Paine's Apogee. They are two completely different designs with the same name.

              Having the full plans of LMII (studied in detail with the view to building) I am ever more convinced that Phil Bolger's legacy needs to be passed on and built on.

              Bolger writes in BWAOM that AS29 is derived from Jessie Cooper and LMII is clearly a member of the same family. Being in proud posession of almost all Bolger books and a significant number of plans, I do not cease to be amazed by Phil Bolger's creativity, flexibility and practical common sense combined with a detailed knowledge of most things nautical.

              Even leaving aside the "conventional professional boatyard" designs, one can see a connection between many of PCB's designs, yet unlike other designers, few are a simple "stretched version" of something else.

              Even cases like Chebacco (where he expressly states that he "stretched"...) there are subtle differences which for the most part have practical explanations. e.g. He goes from plywood panel to lapstrake, does different cuddys/trunks, keel/centreboard options. To boot, PB&F then go on to offer all the options as a package and call them the same boat and let you choose which version to build...

              In the end, all boats are holes in the water that we play or work in. Bolger just varied on the theme during his life, all the way from Tortoise to Rose, in so many ways and so many shapes and sizes and styles that I cannot cease to wonder how so much came out of one brain and off one drawing board.

              I often long to see the many designs that are not documented in the books or elsewhere, as I am convinced that every sketch, drawing and plan reveals a brilliant thought process not available anywhere else.


              David
              Santiago, Chile


              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Pollard wrote:
              >
              > Yeah Mathew in a sense you are right they are different designs, but are
              > they really. I grew up sailing sharpies and I would have never in my
              > wildest dream thought anyone would would build a square sided box add a
              > flat bottom with rocker and a chine that created so little drag and then
              > add a barge type bow. You could say well it's just a box and that is the
              > genius of Mr Bolger. Nobody in their right mind befor him would have
              > ever suggested that you could go to sea in such a boat. Both boats
              > have these same features in common and they are the things that make the
              > boats sharpies. I think a huge part of Mr. Bolgers designs is that you
              > can say , well hell that's nothing but a square box and the next thing
              > you say is man look at her sail and anyone that knows which end of a
              > screwdriver to look through can build her. Doug
              >
              > On 02/13/2013 05:56 AM, Matthew Long wrote:
              > >
              > > I don't think that's right, there may be a spiritual connection with
              > > Jessie Cooper but Loose Moose is definitely its own unique design.
              > >
              > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com ,
              > > Douglas Pollard wrote:
              > > >
              > > > AS far as I know Loose Moose is an extended Jessie Cooper which
              > > > originally was a bolger design. They changed her some with Schooner rig
              > > > lee-boards and likely some other changes. I would guess that neither
              > > > would have been Mr. Bolgers preferd set up. Maybe someone else designed
              > > > those features???? Doug
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > --
              > Doug Pollard,
              > Sailor, Machinst, writer,artist
              > Visit me at:
              >
              > http://sailboatsfairandfine.blogspot.com/
              >
            • Douglas Pollard
              Mr. Bolger designed Wolftrap for me or rather my Parteners and my Machine shop. The idea being that we were particularly capable of building a nice aluminum
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 14, 2013
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                Mr. Bolger designed Wolftrap for me or rather my Parteners and my Machine shop. The idea being that we were particularly capable of building a nice aluminum boat and hoped to sell one or two boats a year and no more, Plus the prototypes would be our own personal boats.   The first design was 28ft long and we mocked her up out of cheap door paneling to get a feel for her.  WE desided  to increase her to 30ft for just a little more comfort and we also felt 30ft might  be better suited for the short wave length of the Chesapeake bay.  You are right he did not design the same boat 2ft longer she was a much better boat  in more ways than just a couple feet difference.  The boat quickly took on a local reputation as that funny looking fast boat. We built her over 30 years ago and I still hear the term occasinally.  She was not a funny looking boat and was quite handsome but her cat yawl rig with sprit booms  certainly were strange from the local point of view.         Doug             


                On 02/14/2013 03:57 PM, David wrote:
                 

                My understanding is that Loose Moose is Bob & Sheila Wise's name for their boat (and business among other things). Loose Moose was a Jessie Cooper, Loose Moose II was the Bolger AS39, I assume Loose Moose III or IV is their current boat and that Loose Moose IV or V will be the next one. Fisher's Loose Moose was a design for the Wise's but no relation to Bolger's. The size of boat was defined by the client requirements and I presume that the general style from the construction constraints/experience with Jessie Cooper. However, I see no more connection between them than between Bolger's Apogee and Chuck Paine's Apogee. They are two completely different designs with the same name.

                Having the full plans of LMII (studied in detail with the view to building) I am ever more convinced that Phil Bolger's legacy needs to be passed on and built on.

                Bolger writes in BWAOM that AS29 is derived from Jessie Cooper and LMII is clearly a member of the same family. Being in proud posession of almost all Bolger books and a significant number of plans, I do not cease to be amazed by Phil Bolger's creativity, flexibility and practical common sense combined with a detailed knowledge of most things nautical.

                Even leaving aside the "conventional professional boatyard" designs, one can see a connection between many of PCB's designs, yet unlike other designers, few are a simple "stretched version" of something else.

                Even cases like Chebacco (where he expressly states that he "stretched"...) there are subtle differences which for the most part have practical explanations. e.g. He goes from plywood panel to lapstrake, does different cuddys/trunks, keel/centreboard options. To boot, PB&F then go on to offer all the options as a package and call them the same boat and let you choose which version to build...

                In the end, all boats are holes in the water that we play or work in. Bolger just varied on the theme during his life, all the way from Tortoise to Rose, in so many ways and so many shapes and sizes and styles that I cannot cease to wonder how so much came out of one brain and off one drawing board.

                I often long to see the many designs that are not documented in the books or elsewhere, as I am convinced that every sketch, drawing and plan reveals a brilliant thought process not available anywhere else.

                David
                Santiago, Chile


                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Pollard wrote:
                >
                > Yeah Mathew in a sense you are right they are different designs, but are
                > they really. I grew up sailing sharpies and I would have never in my
                > wildest dream thought anyone would would build a square sided box add a
                > flat bottom with rocker and a chine that created so little drag and then
                > add a barge type bow. You could say well it's just a box and that is the
                > genius of Mr Bolger. Nobody in their right mind befor him would have
                > ever suggested that you could go to sea in such a boat. Both boats
                > have these same features in common and they are the things that make the
                > boats sharpies. I think a huge part of Mr. Bolgers designs is that you
                > can say , well hell that's nothing but a square box and the next thing
                > you say is man look at her sail and anyone that knows which end of a
                > screwdriver to look through can build her. Doug
                >
                > On 02/13/2013 05:56 AM, Matthew Long wrote:
                > >
                > > I don't think that's right, there may be a spiritual connection with
                > > Jessie Cooper but Loose Moose is definitely its own unique design.
                > >
                > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com ,
                > > Douglas Pollard wrote:
                > > >
                > > > AS far as I know Loose Moose is an extended Jessie Cooper which
                > > > originally was a bolger design. They changed her some with Schooner rig
                > > > lee-boards and likely some other changes. I would guess that neither
                > > > would have been Mr. Bolgers preferd set up. Maybe someone else designed
                > > > those features???? Doug
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > --
                > Doug Pollard,
                > Sailor, Machinst, writer,artist
                > Visit me at:
                >
                > http://sailboatsfairandfine.blogspot.com/
                >



                -- 
                                 Doug Pollard, 
                      Sailor, Machinst, writer,artist 
                                Visit me at:
                     
                     http://sailboatsfairandfine.blogspot.com/
                     
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