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Re: Seaworthyness and stability Long Micro?

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  • William
    In my experience, one of the biggest impediments to readily reefing my LM is the wave action, and not so much the wind. When I sail on a smallish, madmade
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 8, 2013
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      In my experience, one of the biggest impediments to readily reefing my LM is the wave action, and not so much the wind. When I sail on a smallish, madmade lake in Texas, I can reef without much drama. The fetch on this lake is 4 miles at most and the waves never get very large. But when I'm on the Great Lakes the waves can be considerable (considerable for an LM). I've seen Pat's movies and I see that he's been in some big waves too. Big waves push bow off the wind, let the boom swing to-and-fro, and can even wrap a loosened halyard around the mast (I have a steaming light on my mast, and that danged thing snags the halyard when I'm not careful). Perhaps one of the differences between Micro owners' experiences reefing, and LM owners' experiences is due to the sailing grounds and hence the waves? Add in a longer boom, bigger mainsail, and longer cabintop (thus farther from cockpit to mast) and you have just a smidge more excitement when tying a reef in an LM?

      My reefing system uses sail ties (6 for the 1st reef, 5 for the 2nd). I MUST go to the mast, to hook the new clew point, and to tie in the first few reef points. Not a big deal. Just a time to be mindful and cautious. A little dry mouthed anxiety helps focus the mind. And none of this should be interpreted by anyone as a critique of the beloved LM, nor as a suggestion that the LM is unsafe, flawed, or less than perfect.

      Bill, in Texas (where the waves at NOT bigger)

      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Pat wrote:
      >
      > Hi Myles
      >
      > Thanks for sharing your procedure for reefing but could you elaborate on
      > the reefing hook arrangement. When you say "My sail was on a track with a
      > reefing hook attached...". Do you mean you have a line to the reefing hook
      > from the cock pit?
      >
      > I was just doing a bit of research on the advantages of a wishbone boom
      > similar to the Canadian Nonesuch design. A bit more complicated in
      > construction and rigging but the lazy jack seems to solve the reefing
      > problems.
      >
      > Cheers
      > Pat
      >
      > vid of Nonesuch reefing sytem
      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgoJWgDnDe8
      >
    • Mike Graf
      Well said Bill and that s always the case on any small boat. the wind comes up waves build(opposing wind and current!) Boat starts rocking, boom violently
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 8, 2013
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        Well said Bill and that's always the case on any small boat. the wind comes up waves build(opposing wind and current!)  Boat starts rocking, boom violently banging back and forth the funs just startin'  one hand for you and one for the boat  Only experience on your particular boat will show you the way to tame her. Reef points a must, old sailing sayings like "A Prudent sailor reefs early" start to make sense  A reef hook is precious, but 5-10 pieces of 1/4 inch line, 3 ft long and you can "reef" her down.   Tighten that halyard and get back to the tiller haul in the main and get her going..... If your a lucky sea dog you can let that mizzen out......sleep good tonight


        On 02/08/2013 01:50 PM, William wrote:
         

        In my experience, one of the biggest impediments to readily reefing my LM is the wave action, and not so much the wind. When I sail on a smallish, madmade lake in Texas, I can reef without much drama. The fetch on this lake is 4 miles at most and the waves never get very large. But when I'm on the Great Lakes the waves can be considerable (considerable for an LM). I've seen Pat's movies and I see that he's been in some big waves too. Big waves push bow off the wind, let the boom swing to-and-fro, and can even wrap a loosened halyard around the mast (I have a steaming light on my mast, and that danged thing snags the halyard when I'm not careful). Perhaps one of the differences between Micro owners' experiences reefing, and LM owners' experiences is due to the sailing grounds and hence the waves? Add in a longer boom, bigger mainsail, and longer cabintop (thus farther from cockpit to mast) and you have just a smidge more excitement when tying a reef in an LM?

        My reefing system uses sail ties (6 for the 1st reef, 5 for the 2nd). I MUST go to the mast, to hook the new clew point, and to tie in the first few reef points. Not a big deal. Just a time to be mindful and cautious. A little dry mouthed anxiety helps focus the mind. And none of this should be interpreted by anyone as a critique of the beloved LM, nor as a suggestion that the LM is unsafe, flawed, or less than perfect.

        Bill, in Texas (where the waves at NOT bigger)

        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Pat wrote:
        >
        > Hi Myles
        >
        > Thanks for sharing your procedure for reefing but could you elaborate on
        > the reefing hook arrangement. When you say "My sail was on a track with a
        > reefing hook attached...". Do you mean you have a line to the reefing hook
        > from the cock pit?
        >
        > I was just doing a bit of research on the advantages of a wishbone boom
        > similar to the Canadian Nonesuch design. A bit more complicated in
        > construction and rigging but the lazy jack seems to solve the reefing
        > problems.
        >
        > Cheers
        > Pat
        >
        > vid of Nonesuch reefing sytem
        > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgoJWgDnDe8
        >


      • MylesJ. Swift
        Pat, I wasn t the one with the reefing hook. I only have one set of reef points in my Micro sail. I run a simple recirculating line through each reef hole and
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 8, 2013
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          Pat,

           

          I wasn’t the one with the reefing hook. I only have one set of reef points in my Micro sail. I run a simple recirculating line through each reef hole and loosely under the foot of the sail. Friction is low enough that way that I can drop the main a bit, pull the line taut, and tie it off where the last reef point meets the boom.

           

          Early on I tried the “proper” method of relocating the boom end to the last reef point. That was a pain, time consuming, and resulting in the boom banging hard on the mast. My way is fast, easy, and the boom doesn’t change position.

           

          MylesJ

        • John Kohnen
          Do you mean topping lift? Lazy jacks are usually referred to in the plural... You can use a topping lift with a regular sprit-boom. I Had one on my Michalak
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 8, 2013
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            Do you mean topping lift? Lazy jacks are usually referred to in the
            plural... You can use a topping lift with a regular sprit-boom. I Had one
            on my Michalak Jewelbox, Jr. and it made hoisting sail, furling and
            reefing it easier. I was gonna try experiment with lazy jacks hung from
            the topping lift, but never got around to it...

            You've pretty much gotta use a sail track on the mast to make reefing a
            sprit-boomed leg o' mutton reasonably safe and easy. I hate sail track,
            but it's necessary. <shrug>

            I don't know what a "reefing hook" is.

            On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 19:15:39 -0800, Pat wrote:

            > ...
            > I was just doing a bit of research on the advantages of a wishbone boom
            > similar to the Canadian Nonesuch design. A bit more complicated in
            > construction and rigging but the lazy jack seems to solve the reefing
            > problems.

            --
            John (jkohnen@...)
            The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of
            morality by religion. (Arthur C. Clarke)
          • prairiedog2332
            Just to clarify, there was never that option offered for the LONG MICRO sail rig. I enquired to Mr. Bolger a long time ago about a LONG MICRO NAVIGATOR but he
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 9, 2013
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              Just to clarify, there was never that option offered for the LONG MICRO sail rig. I enquired to Mr. Bolger a long time ago about a LONG MICRO NAVIGATOR but he was too busy at the time and there seemed to be a lack of interest in  his view. He suggested the MICRO NAV. option might be adaptable. The updated sheets (MICRO II?) cost $50 at the time. I posted a "teaser" view of them to Bolger 4.

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger4/files/MICRO%20NAVIGATOR/

              Two major points in my view were the much larger and fully battened mizzen which would aid in holding the bow to windward for reefing. The second was the forward hatch that allowed access to the bow well and main mast without having to go on deck. I think these two items might really be considered as necessary additions if building a LONG MICRO.

              Nels

              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
              >
              > On the issue of reefing MICRO or LONG MICRO, we explicitly offered as one option the fully-battened gaff-main version for easy pull-down per panel convenience. Different strokes for different folks. But not an issue that would de facto 'condemn' either MICRO in terms of safety in rising winds.
              >
              > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
              >

            • phil.bolger
              LM should have the same options; already has the main-mast location. We thought that the determined will just do much of that work on their existing hull.
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 9, 2013
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                LM should have the same options; already has the main-mast location. 
                We thought that the determined will just do much of that work on their existing hull.
                Based on her current performance, these ergonomic upgrades would make LM perhaps one of the most potent small-cruisers.  I'd love to get to it right now... But no can do !  Yet.

                Susanne Altenburger, PB&F 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2013 8:35 AM
                Subject: [bolger] Re: Seaworthyness and stability Long Micro?

                 

                Just to clarify, there was never that option offered for the LONG MICRO sail rig. I enquired to Mr. Bolger a long time ago about a LONG MICRO NAVIGATOR but he was too busy at the time and there seemed to be a lack of interest in  his view. He suggested the MICRO NAV. option might be adaptable. The updated sheets (MICRO II?) cost $50 at the time. I posted a "teaser" view of them to Bolger 4.


                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger4/files/MICRO%20NAVIGATOR/

                Two major points in my view were the much larger and fully battened mizzen which would aid in holding the bow to windward for reefing. The second was the forward hatch that allowed access to the bow well and main mast without having to go on deck. I think these two items might really be considered as necessary additions if building a LONG MICRO.

                Nels

                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
                >
                > On the issue of reefing MICRO or LONG MICRO, we explicitly offered as one option the fully-battened gaff-main version for easy pull-down per panel convenience. Different strokes for different folks. But not an issue that would de facto 'condemn' either MICRO in terms of safety in rising winds.
                >
                > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
                >

              • prairiedog2332
                One challenge is how best to get steering capability into the deckhouse with LM. Regarding the cockpit not self-draining - well it is not supposed to have a
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 9, 2013
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                  One challenge is how best to get steering capability into the deckhouse with LM. Regarding the cockpit not self-draining - well it is not supposed to have a cockpit. So some sort of whip staff might work?

                  Nels

                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
                  >
                  > LM should have the same options; already has the main-mast location.
                  > We thought that the determined will just do much of that work on their existing hull.
                  > Based on her current performance, these ergonomic upgrades would make LM perhaps one of the most potent small-cruisers. I'd love to get to it right now... But no can do ! Yet.
                  >
                  > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: prairiedog2332
                  > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2013 8:35 AM
                  > Subject: [bolger] Re: Seaworthyness and stability Long Micro?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Just to clarify, there was never that option offered for the LONG MICRO sail rig. I enquired to Mr. Bolger a long time ago about a LONG MICRO NAVIGATOR but he was too busy at the time and there seemed to be a lack of interest in his view. He suggested the MICRO NAV. option might be adaptable. The updated sheets (MICRO II?) cost $50 at the time. I posted a "teaser" view of them to Bolger 4.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger4/files/MICRO%20NAVIGATOR/
                  >
                  >
                  > Two major points in my view were the much larger and fully battened mizzen which would aid in holding the bow to windward for reefing. The second was the forward hatch that allowed access to the bow well and main mast without having to go on deck. I think these two items might really be considered as necessary additions if building a LONG MICRO.
                  >
                  >
                  > Nels
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
                  > >
                  > > On the issue of reefing MICRO or LONG MICRO, we explicitly offered as one option the fully-battened gaff-main version for easy pull-down per panel convenience. Different strokes for different folks. But not an issue that would de facto 'condemn' either MICRO in terms of safety in rising winds.
                  > >
                  > > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
                  > >
                  >
                • dnjost
                  Sail was on sail track, not laced on. I had a ss hook tied to a piece of line and down to a block on the deck, then run aft to a small cleat on the aft edge
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 9, 2013
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                    Sail was on sail track, not laced on. I had a ss hook tied to a piece of line and down to a block on the deck, then run aft to a small cleat on the aft edge of the deck near the cabin hatch. toughest part is unattaching and reattaching the sprit to the new location.

                    It has been a long time, but I think this is what I did.
                    Step 1. trim the mizzen in all the way
                    Step 2. ease the main sheet
                    step 3. ease the snotter
                    step 4. undo the halyard.
                    Step 5. pull on the reefing line and cleat
                    step 6. move the sprit to it's new clew on the reef line (this is the hardest part)
                    step 7. raise the halyard
                    step 8. trim the snotter
                    step 9. smile incessently and go sailing.

                    It probably took longer to type this than do it. all told about 2 minutes.


                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Pat wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Myles
                    >
                    > Thanks for sharing your procedure for reefing but could you elaborate on
                    > the reefing hook arrangement. When you say "My sail was on a track with a
                    > reefing hook attached...". Do you mean you have a line to the reefing hook
                    > from the cock pit?
                    >
                    > I was just doing a bit of research on the advantages of a wishbone boom
                    > similar to the Canadian Nonesuch design. A bit more complicated in
                    > construction and rigging but the lazy jack seems to solve the reefing
                    > problems.
                    >
                    > Cheers
                    > Pat
                    >
                    > vid of Nonesuch reefing sytem
                    > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgoJWgDnDe8
                    >
                  • Mason Smith
                    For reefing the Micro s mainsail I like David s reefing downhaul idea (though going forward to tie down the reef cringle to the tack doesn t bother me much,
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 10, 2013
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                      For reefing the Micro’s mainsail I like David’s reefing downhaul idea (though going forward to tie down the reef cringle to the tack doesn’t bother me much, especially if Maggie does it). But I prefer not to move the sprit boom forward. If you have a long enough piece of line on the reef clew, you can take a round turn around the boom and lead it aft, to the end of the boom or the original clew, making it serve also as an outhaul. This way you preserve the main sheeting angle. The YouTube video “Micros in the Harbor” shows both my and David’s Micros sailing reefed at Phil’s Memorial in 2010. I just accepted a down payment on my Micro, by the way. Maggie is disgusted with me. ---Mason

                       

                      From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dnjost
                      Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2013 5:03 PM
                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [bolger] Re: Seaworthyness and stability Long Micro?

                       

                       

                      Sail was on sail track, not laced on. I had a ss hook tied to a piece of line and down to a block on the deck, then run aft to a small cleat on the aft edge of the deck near the cabin hatch. toughest part is unattaching and reattaching the sprit to the new location.

                      It has been a long time, but I think this is what I did.
                      Step 1. trim the mizzen in all the way
                      Step 2. ease the main sheet
                      step 3. ease the snotter
                      step 4. undo the halyard.
                      Step 5. pull on the reefing line and cleat
                      step 6. move the sprit to it's new clew on the reef line (this is the hardest part)
                      step 7. raise the halyard
                      step 8. trim the snotter
                      step 9. smile incessently and go sailing.

                      It probably took longer to type this than do it. all told about 2 minutes.

                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Pat wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Myles
                      >
                      > Thanks for sharing your procedure for reefing but could you elaborate on
                      > the reefing hook arrangement. When you say "My sail was on a track with a
                      > reefing hook attached...". Do you mean you have a line to the reefing hook
                      > from the cock pit?
                      >
                      > I was just doing a bit of research on the advantages of a wishbone boom
                      > similar to the Canadian Nonesuch design. A bit more complicated in
                      > construction and rigging but the lazy jack seems to solve the reefing
                      > problems.
                      >
                      > Cheers
                      > Pat
                      >
                      > vid of Nonesuch reefing sytem
                      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgoJWgDnDe8
                      >

                    • dnjost
                      wow...I had not thought of that. lash the new clew to the sprit boom and then lead it aft through an outhaul type arrangement. I am currently working on
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 10, 2013
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                        wow...I had not thought of that. lash the new clew to the sprit boom and then lead it aft through an outhaul type arrangement. I am currently working on building a Core Sound 17, that uses such and arrangement with it's sprit. (hence my lack of posts on the Bolger forum). Although the sketch of the AS 29 still hangs in the office. Someday...

                        Happy building,
                        David



                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mason Smith" wrote:
                        >
                        > For reefing the Micro's mainsail I like David's reefing downhaul idea
                        > (though going forward to tie down the reef cringle to the tack doesn't
                        > bother me much, especially if Maggie does it). But I prefer not to move the
                        > sprit boom forward. If you have a long enough piece of line on the reef
                        > clew, you can take a round turn around the boom and lead it aft, to the end
                        > of the boom or the original clew, making it serve also as an outhaul. This
                        > way you preserve the main sheeting angle. The YouTube video "Micros in the
                        > Harbor" shows both my and David's Micros sailing reefed at Phil's Memorial
                        > in 2010. I just accepted a down payment on my Micro, by the way. Maggie is
                        > disgusted with me. ---Mason
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                        > dnjost
                        > Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2013 5:03 PM
                        > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [bolger] Re: Seaworthyness and stability Long Micro?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Sail was on sail track, not laced on. I had a ss hook tied to a piece of
                        > line and down to a block on the deck, then run aft to a small cleat on the
                        > aft edge of the deck near the cabin hatch. toughest part is unattaching and
                        > reattaching the sprit to the new location.
                        >
                        > It has been a long time, but I think this is what I did.
                        > Step 1. trim the mizzen in all the way
                        > Step 2. ease the main sheet
                        > step 3. ease the snotter
                        > step 4. undo the halyard.
                        > Step 5. pull on the reefing line and cleat
                        > step 6. move the sprit to it's new clew on the reef line (this is the
                        > hardest part)
                        > step 7. raise the halyard
                        > step 8. trim the snotter
                        > step 9. smile incessently and go sailing.
                        >
                        > It probably took longer to type this than do it. all told about 2 minutes.
                        >
                        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com , Pat wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hi Myles
                        > >
                        > > Thanks for sharing your procedure for reefing but could you elaborate on
                        > > the reefing hook arrangement. When you say "My sail was on a track with a
                        > > reefing hook attached...". Do you mean you have a line to the reefing hook
                        > > from the cock pit?
                        > >
                        > > I was just doing a bit of research on the advantages of a wishbone boom
                        > > similar to the Canadian Nonesuch design. A bit more complicated in
                        > > construction and rigging but the lazy jack seems to solve the reefing
                        > > problems.
                        > >
                        > > Cheers
                        > > Pat
                        > >
                        > > vid of Nonesuch reefing sytem
                        > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgoJWgDnDe8
                        > >
                        >
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