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Re: [bolger] Re: Seaworthyness and stability Long Micro?

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  • phil.bolger
    Gruetzi ! ... From: stoffersg To: bolger@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:59 AM Subject: [bolger] Re: Seaworthyness and stability Long
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 6, 2013
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      Gruetzi !
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: stoffersg
      Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:59 AM
      Subject: [bolger] Re: Seaworthyness and stability Long Micro?

       

      Hi

      I thank you for all the answers up to now. I will think about that and look around for what and how my future boat shall be...;-)

      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
      >
      > On the issue of reefing MICRO or LONG MICRO, we explicitly offered as one option the fully-battened gaff-main version for easy pull-down per panel convenience. Different strokes for different folks. But not an issue that would de facto 'condemn' either MICRO in terms of safety in rising winds.
      >
      > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: dnjost
      > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 9:58 AM
      > Subject: [bolger] Re: Seaworthyness and stability Long Micro?
      >
      >
      >
      > Interesting thread.
      >
      > My old Micro would heave to quite nicely for reefing. I just lashed sheeted the mizzen in full, and then eased the main, the boat would head up just a little off the wind with the boom within easy reach for doing the reefing. My sail was on a track with a reefing hook attached, so it could be done quickly from the cockpit without the need to go forward. Perhaps the extra length of the Long Micro causes things to act differently.
      >
      > David Jost
      >
      > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
      > >
      > > Pat,
      > > Laying a hull would entail dropping the main and mizzen and sitting on your hands. The boat should settle 90 degrees off the wind. I would lash the tiller, since it tends to bang around. But I do not lay a hull. The limited research on boat in severe storms indicates that laying a hull is less ideal than heaving too (boat is more likely to broach/roll/sink). I also think the LM's hull (flat bottom) would roll and pitch quite a bit and might not be comfortable sitting beam ends to the waves.
      > > Heaving to can be accomplished by sheeting the mizzen tight. The bow will drop off the wind and settle to about 45 degrees off the wind. I've hove to in winds around 15 knots and seen my LM drift backwards at around .5 knots. Again, lashing the tiller would be prudent. I've never been in conditions so serious that I had to heave to, but if I do, my plan is to heave to. I've also contemplated using a bucket on a line, cleated to the bow, as a sea anchor if required to slow the drift. All of this is really just idle contemplation since I'll never have my LM is some off-shore gale. But it is fun to think about in the privacy of the privy. And for clarification's sake (in case someone is wondering), forereaching is different from heaving to and laying a hull.
      > >
      > > Pat. What have you tried? What works? What doesn't?
      > > Bill
      > >
      > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Pat wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hi Bill
      > > >
      > > > Could you outline your procedure for laying a hull?
      > > > Thanks
      > > > Pat
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Sent from my iPad
      > > >
      > >
      >

    • MylesJ. Swift
      David says: My old Micro would heave to quite nicely for reefing. I just lashed sheeted the mizzen in full, and then eased the main, the boat would head up
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 7, 2013
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        David says: “My old Micro would heave to quite nicely for reefing. I just lashed sheeted the mizzen in full, and then eased the main, the boat would head up just a little off the wind with the boom within easy reach for doing the reefing. My sail was on a track with a reefing hook attached, so it could be done quickly from the cockpit without the need to go forward. Perhaps the extra length of the Long Micro causes things to act differently”

         

        That is exactly right. I have a slab reef line on my Micro that I pull from the helm position. If you spend a little time getting the main just right after heaving to you can maintain position for a long time, hands off.

         

        MylesJ

      • Pat
        Hi Myles Thanks for sharing your procedure for reefing but could you elaborate on the reefing hook arrangement. When you say My sail was on a track with a
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 7, 2013
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          Hi Myles

          Thanks for sharing your procedure for reefing but could you elaborate on the reefing hook arrangement. When you say "My sail was on a track with a reefing hook attached...". Do you mean you have a line to the reefing hook from the cock pit?

          I was just doing a bit of research on the advantages of a wishbone boom similar to the Canadian Nonesuch design. A bit more complicated in construction and rigging but the lazy jack  seems to solve the reefing problems.  

          Cheers
          Pat

          vid of Nonesuch reefing sytem
        • William
          In my experience, one of the biggest impediments to readily reefing my LM is the wave action, and not so much the wind. When I sail on a smallish, madmade
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 8, 2013
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            In my experience, one of the biggest impediments to readily reefing my LM is the wave action, and not so much the wind. When I sail on a smallish, madmade lake in Texas, I can reef without much drama. The fetch on this lake is 4 miles at most and the waves never get very large. But when I'm on the Great Lakes the waves can be considerable (considerable for an LM). I've seen Pat's movies and I see that he's been in some big waves too. Big waves push bow off the wind, let the boom swing to-and-fro, and can even wrap a loosened halyard around the mast (I have a steaming light on my mast, and that danged thing snags the halyard when I'm not careful). Perhaps one of the differences between Micro owners' experiences reefing, and LM owners' experiences is due to the sailing grounds and hence the waves? Add in a longer boom, bigger mainsail, and longer cabintop (thus farther from cockpit to mast) and you have just a smidge more excitement when tying a reef in an LM?

            My reefing system uses sail ties (6 for the 1st reef, 5 for the 2nd). I MUST go to the mast, to hook the new clew point, and to tie in the first few reef points. Not a big deal. Just a time to be mindful and cautious. A little dry mouthed anxiety helps focus the mind. And none of this should be interpreted by anyone as a critique of the beloved LM, nor as a suggestion that the LM is unsafe, flawed, or less than perfect.

            Bill, in Texas (where the waves at NOT bigger)

            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Pat wrote:
            >
            > Hi Myles
            >
            > Thanks for sharing your procedure for reefing but could you elaborate on
            > the reefing hook arrangement. When you say "My sail was on a track with a
            > reefing hook attached...". Do you mean you have a line to the reefing hook
            > from the cock pit?
            >
            > I was just doing a bit of research on the advantages of a wishbone boom
            > similar to the Canadian Nonesuch design. A bit more complicated in
            > construction and rigging but the lazy jack seems to solve the reefing
            > problems.
            >
            > Cheers
            > Pat
            >
            > vid of Nonesuch reefing sytem
            > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgoJWgDnDe8
            >
          • Mike Graf
            Well said Bill and that s always the case on any small boat. the wind comes up waves build(opposing wind and current!) Boat starts rocking, boom violently
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 8, 2013
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              Well said Bill and that's always the case on any small boat. the wind comes up waves build(opposing wind and current!)  Boat starts rocking, boom violently banging back and forth the funs just startin'  one hand for you and one for the boat  Only experience on your particular boat will show you the way to tame her. Reef points a must, old sailing sayings like "A Prudent sailor reefs early" start to make sense  A reef hook is precious, but 5-10 pieces of 1/4 inch line, 3 ft long and you can "reef" her down.   Tighten that halyard and get back to the tiller haul in the main and get her going..... If your a lucky sea dog you can let that mizzen out......sleep good tonight


              On 02/08/2013 01:50 PM, William wrote:
               

              In my experience, one of the biggest impediments to readily reefing my LM is the wave action, and not so much the wind. When I sail on a smallish, madmade lake in Texas, I can reef without much drama. The fetch on this lake is 4 miles at most and the waves never get very large. But when I'm on the Great Lakes the waves can be considerable (considerable for an LM). I've seen Pat's movies and I see that he's been in some big waves too. Big waves push bow off the wind, let the boom swing to-and-fro, and can even wrap a loosened halyard around the mast (I have a steaming light on my mast, and that danged thing snags the halyard when I'm not careful). Perhaps one of the differences between Micro owners' experiences reefing, and LM owners' experiences is due to the sailing grounds and hence the waves? Add in a longer boom, bigger mainsail, and longer cabintop (thus farther from cockpit to mast) and you have just a smidge more excitement when tying a reef in an LM?

              My reefing system uses sail ties (6 for the 1st reef, 5 for the 2nd). I MUST go to the mast, to hook the new clew point, and to tie in the first few reef points. Not a big deal. Just a time to be mindful and cautious. A little dry mouthed anxiety helps focus the mind. And none of this should be interpreted by anyone as a critique of the beloved LM, nor as a suggestion that the LM is unsafe, flawed, or less than perfect.

              Bill, in Texas (where the waves at NOT bigger)

              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Pat wrote:
              >
              > Hi Myles
              >
              > Thanks for sharing your procedure for reefing but could you elaborate on
              > the reefing hook arrangement. When you say "My sail was on a track with a
              > reefing hook attached...". Do you mean you have a line to the reefing hook
              > from the cock pit?
              >
              > I was just doing a bit of research on the advantages of a wishbone boom
              > similar to the Canadian Nonesuch design. A bit more complicated in
              > construction and rigging but the lazy jack seems to solve the reefing
              > problems.
              >
              > Cheers
              > Pat
              >
              > vid of Nonesuch reefing sytem
              > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgoJWgDnDe8
              >


            • MylesJ. Swift
              Pat, I wasn t the one with the reefing hook. I only have one set of reef points in my Micro sail. I run a simple recirculating line through each reef hole and
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 8, 2013
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                Pat,

                 

                I wasn’t the one with the reefing hook. I only have one set of reef points in my Micro sail. I run a simple recirculating line through each reef hole and loosely under the foot of the sail. Friction is low enough that way that I can drop the main a bit, pull the line taut, and tie it off where the last reef point meets the boom.

                 

                Early on I tried the “proper” method of relocating the boom end to the last reef point. That was a pain, time consuming, and resulting in the boom banging hard on the mast. My way is fast, easy, and the boom doesn’t change position.

                 

                MylesJ

              • John Kohnen
                Do you mean topping lift? Lazy jacks are usually referred to in the plural... You can use a topping lift with a regular sprit-boom. I Had one on my Michalak
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 8, 2013
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                  Do you mean topping lift? Lazy jacks are usually referred to in the
                  plural... You can use a topping lift with a regular sprit-boom. I Had one
                  on my Michalak Jewelbox, Jr. and it made hoisting sail, furling and
                  reefing it easier. I was gonna try experiment with lazy jacks hung from
                  the topping lift, but never got around to it...

                  You've pretty much gotta use a sail track on the mast to make reefing a
                  sprit-boomed leg o' mutton reasonably safe and easy. I hate sail track,
                  but it's necessary. <shrug>

                  I don't know what a "reefing hook" is.

                  On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 19:15:39 -0800, Pat wrote:

                  > ...
                  > I was just doing a bit of research on the advantages of a wishbone boom
                  > similar to the Canadian Nonesuch design. A bit more complicated in
                  > construction and rigging but the lazy jack seems to solve the reefing
                  > problems.

                  --
                  John (jkohnen@...)
                  The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of
                  morality by religion. (Arthur C. Clarke)
                • prairiedog2332
                  Just to clarify, there was never that option offered for the LONG MICRO sail rig. I enquired to Mr. Bolger a long time ago about a LONG MICRO NAVIGATOR but he
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 9, 2013
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                    Just to clarify, there was never that option offered for the LONG MICRO sail rig. I enquired to Mr. Bolger a long time ago about a LONG MICRO NAVIGATOR but he was too busy at the time and there seemed to be a lack of interest in  his view. He suggested the MICRO NAV. option might be adaptable. The updated sheets (MICRO II?) cost $50 at the time. I posted a "teaser" view of them to Bolger 4.

                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger4/files/MICRO%20NAVIGATOR/

                    Two major points in my view were the much larger and fully battened mizzen which would aid in holding the bow to windward for reefing. The second was the forward hatch that allowed access to the bow well and main mast without having to go on deck. I think these two items might really be considered as necessary additions if building a LONG MICRO.

                    Nels

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
                    >
                    > On the issue of reefing MICRO or LONG MICRO, we explicitly offered as one option the fully-battened gaff-main version for easy pull-down per panel convenience. Different strokes for different folks. But not an issue that would de facto 'condemn' either MICRO in terms of safety in rising winds.
                    >
                    > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
                    >

                  • phil.bolger
                    LM should have the same options; already has the main-mast location. We thought that the determined will just do much of that work on their existing hull.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 9, 2013
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                      LM should have the same options; already has the main-mast location. 
                      We thought that the determined will just do much of that work on their existing hull.
                      Based on her current performance, these ergonomic upgrades would make LM perhaps one of the most potent small-cruisers.  I'd love to get to it right now... But no can do !  Yet.

                      Susanne Altenburger, PB&F 
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2013 8:35 AM
                      Subject: [bolger] Re: Seaworthyness and stability Long Micro?

                       

                      Just to clarify, there was never that option offered for the LONG MICRO sail rig. I enquired to Mr. Bolger a long time ago about a LONG MICRO NAVIGATOR but he was too busy at the time and there seemed to be a lack of interest in  his view. He suggested the MICRO NAV. option might be adaptable. The updated sheets (MICRO II?) cost $50 at the time. I posted a "teaser" view of them to Bolger 4.


                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger4/files/MICRO%20NAVIGATOR/

                      Two major points in my view were the much larger and fully battened mizzen which would aid in holding the bow to windward for reefing. The second was the forward hatch that allowed access to the bow well and main mast without having to go on deck. I think these two items might really be considered as necessary additions if building a LONG MICRO.

                      Nels

                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
                      >
                      > On the issue of reefing MICRO or LONG MICRO, we explicitly offered as one option the fully-battened gaff-main version for easy pull-down per panel convenience. Different strokes for different folks. But not an issue that would de facto 'condemn' either MICRO in terms of safety in rising winds.
                      >
                      > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
                      >

                    • prairiedog2332
                      One challenge is how best to get steering capability into the deckhouse with LM. Regarding the cockpit not self-draining - well it is not supposed to have a
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 9, 2013
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                        One challenge is how best to get steering capability into the deckhouse with LM. Regarding the cockpit not self-draining - well it is not supposed to have a cockpit. So some sort of whip staff might work?

                        Nels

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
                        >
                        > LM should have the same options; already has the main-mast location.
                        > We thought that the determined will just do much of that work on their existing hull.
                        > Based on her current performance, these ergonomic upgrades would make LM perhaps one of the most potent small-cruisers. I'd love to get to it right now... But no can do ! Yet.
                        >
                        > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: prairiedog2332
                        > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2013 8:35 AM
                        > Subject: [bolger] Re: Seaworthyness and stability Long Micro?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Just to clarify, there was never that option offered for the LONG MICRO sail rig. I enquired to Mr. Bolger a long time ago about a LONG MICRO NAVIGATOR but he was too busy at the time and there seemed to be a lack of interest in his view. He suggested the MICRO NAV. option might be adaptable. The updated sheets (MICRO II?) cost $50 at the time. I posted a "teaser" view of them to Bolger 4.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger4/files/MICRO%20NAVIGATOR/
                        >
                        >
                        > Two major points in my view were the much larger and fully battened mizzen which would aid in holding the bow to windward for reefing. The second was the forward hatch that allowed access to the bow well and main mast without having to go on deck. I think these two items might really be considered as necessary additions if building a LONG MICRO.
                        >
                        >
                        > Nels
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
                        > >
                        > > On the issue of reefing MICRO or LONG MICRO, we explicitly offered as one option the fully-battened gaff-main version for easy pull-down per panel convenience. Different strokes for different folks. But not an issue that would de facto 'condemn' either MICRO in terms of safety in rising winds.
                        > >
                        > > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
                        > >
                        >
                      • dnjost
                        Sail was on sail track, not laced on. I had a ss hook tied to a piece of line and down to a block on the deck, then run aft to a small cleat on the aft edge
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 9, 2013
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                          Sail was on sail track, not laced on. I had a ss hook tied to a piece of line and down to a block on the deck, then run aft to a small cleat on the aft edge of the deck near the cabin hatch. toughest part is unattaching and reattaching the sprit to the new location.

                          It has been a long time, but I think this is what I did.
                          Step 1. trim the mizzen in all the way
                          Step 2. ease the main sheet
                          step 3. ease the snotter
                          step 4. undo the halyard.
                          Step 5. pull on the reefing line and cleat
                          step 6. move the sprit to it's new clew on the reef line (this is the hardest part)
                          step 7. raise the halyard
                          step 8. trim the snotter
                          step 9. smile incessently and go sailing.

                          It probably took longer to type this than do it. all told about 2 minutes.


                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Pat wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Myles
                          >
                          > Thanks for sharing your procedure for reefing but could you elaborate on
                          > the reefing hook arrangement. When you say "My sail was on a track with a
                          > reefing hook attached...". Do you mean you have a line to the reefing hook
                          > from the cock pit?
                          >
                          > I was just doing a bit of research on the advantages of a wishbone boom
                          > similar to the Canadian Nonesuch design. A bit more complicated in
                          > construction and rigging but the lazy jack seems to solve the reefing
                          > problems.
                          >
                          > Cheers
                          > Pat
                          >
                          > vid of Nonesuch reefing sytem
                          > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgoJWgDnDe8
                          >
                        • Mason Smith
                          For reefing the Micro s mainsail I like David s reefing downhaul idea (though going forward to tie down the reef cringle to the tack doesn t bother me much,
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 10, 2013
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                            For reefing the Micro’s mainsail I like David’s reefing downhaul idea (though going forward to tie down the reef cringle to the tack doesn’t bother me much, especially if Maggie does it). But I prefer not to move the sprit boom forward. If you have a long enough piece of line on the reef clew, you can take a round turn around the boom and lead it aft, to the end of the boom or the original clew, making it serve also as an outhaul. This way you preserve the main sheeting angle. The YouTube video “Micros in the Harbor” shows both my and David’s Micros sailing reefed at Phil’s Memorial in 2010. I just accepted a down payment on my Micro, by the way. Maggie is disgusted with me. ---Mason

                             

                            From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dnjost
                            Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2013 5:03 PM
                            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [bolger] Re: Seaworthyness and stability Long Micro?

                             

                             

                            Sail was on sail track, not laced on. I had a ss hook tied to a piece of line and down to a block on the deck, then run aft to a small cleat on the aft edge of the deck near the cabin hatch. toughest part is unattaching and reattaching the sprit to the new location.

                            It has been a long time, but I think this is what I did.
                            Step 1. trim the mizzen in all the way
                            Step 2. ease the main sheet
                            step 3. ease the snotter
                            step 4. undo the halyard.
                            Step 5. pull on the reefing line and cleat
                            step 6. move the sprit to it's new clew on the reef line (this is the hardest part)
                            step 7. raise the halyard
                            step 8. trim the snotter
                            step 9. smile incessently and go sailing.

                            It probably took longer to type this than do it. all told about 2 minutes.

                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Pat wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Myles
                            >
                            > Thanks for sharing your procedure for reefing but could you elaborate on
                            > the reefing hook arrangement. When you say "My sail was on a track with a
                            > reefing hook attached...". Do you mean you have a line to the reefing hook
                            > from the cock pit?
                            >
                            > I was just doing a bit of research on the advantages of a wishbone boom
                            > similar to the Canadian Nonesuch design. A bit more complicated in
                            > construction and rigging but the lazy jack seems to solve the reefing
                            > problems.
                            >
                            > Cheers
                            > Pat
                            >
                            > vid of Nonesuch reefing sytem
                            > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgoJWgDnDe8
                            >

                          • dnjost
                            wow...I had not thought of that. lash the new clew to the sprit boom and then lead it aft through an outhaul type arrangement. I am currently working on
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 10, 2013
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                              wow...I had not thought of that. lash the new clew to the sprit boom and then lead it aft through an outhaul type arrangement. I am currently working on building a Core Sound 17, that uses such and arrangement with it's sprit. (hence my lack of posts on the Bolger forum). Although the sketch of the AS 29 still hangs in the office. Someday...

                              Happy building,
                              David



                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mason Smith" wrote:
                              >
                              > For reefing the Micro's mainsail I like David's reefing downhaul idea
                              > (though going forward to tie down the reef cringle to the tack doesn't
                              > bother me much, especially if Maggie does it). But I prefer not to move the
                              > sprit boom forward. If you have a long enough piece of line on the reef
                              > clew, you can take a round turn around the boom and lead it aft, to the end
                              > of the boom or the original clew, making it serve also as an outhaul. This
                              > way you preserve the main sheeting angle. The YouTube video "Micros in the
                              > Harbor" shows both my and David's Micros sailing reefed at Phil's Memorial
                              > in 2010. I just accepted a down payment on my Micro, by the way. Maggie is
                              > disgusted with me. ---Mason
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                              > dnjost
                              > Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2013 5:03 PM
                              > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [bolger] Re: Seaworthyness and stability Long Micro?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Sail was on sail track, not laced on. I had a ss hook tied to a piece of
                              > line and down to a block on the deck, then run aft to a small cleat on the
                              > aft edge of the deck near the cabin hatch. toughest part is unattaching and
                              > reattaching the sprit to the new location.
                              >
                              > It has been a long time, but I think this is what I did.
                              > Step 1. trim the mizzen in all the way
                              > Step 2. ease the main sheet
                              > step 3. ease the snotter
                              > step 4. undo the halyard.
                              > Step 5. pull on the reefing line and cleat
                              > step 6. move the sprit to it's new clew on the reef line (this is the
                              > hardest part)
                              > step 7. raise the halyard
                              > step 8. trim the snotter
                              > step 9. smile incessently and go sailing.
                              >
                              > It probably took longer to type this than do it. all told about 2 minutes.
                              >
                              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com , Pat wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hi Myles
                              > >
                              > > Thanks for sharing your procedure for reefing but could you elaborate on
                              > > the reefing hook arrangement. When you say "My sail was on a track with a
                              > > reefing hook attached...". Do you mean you have a line to the reefing hook
                              > > from the cock pit?
                              > >
                              > > I was just doing a bit of research on the advantages of a wishbone boom
                              > > similar to the Canadian Nonesuch design. A bit more complicated in
                              > > construction and rigging but the lazy jack seems to solve the reefing
                              > > problems.
                              > >
                              > > Cheers
                              > > Pat
                              > >
                              > > vid of Nonesuch reefing sytem
                              > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgoJWgDnDe8
                              > >
                              >
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