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Re: [bolger] Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?

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  • Douglas Pollard
    I guess I would consider how much work will I have to put into the boat to complete it. I have an Elver I built. She is strip planked and a really nice
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 20, 2012
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      I guess I would consider how much work will I have to put into the boat to complete it.   I have an Elver I built.   She is strip planked and a really nice little boat. Considering what she is, she should have been built with the best of materials.  If I want to sell her I have to tell the buyer I built her out of cheap big box plywood.  To build her i spent about $800 on a bow shed. I boughts some sanders battery drills , screws, epoxy, Glass, paint, Led lights  anchors, sails line and so on.   For a couple hundred dollars I could have bought, if not marine grade at least top quality ply.  If your gonna build a throw away boat it does not matter.  If you want to keep her in a garage she will last indefinitely if built out of cheap plywood but if you want to sell her at some point, the buyer will figure that if you didn't think enough of her to use good material.   Then will hold her in the same amount of esteem as you did.     Doug

       On 12/20/2012 12:25 PM, Michael Seitz wrote:
       

      While I could go crazy on my next build and run to the coast (8 hours)
      and get Okume or Meranti at $90 a sheet, I'd just as soon not do that.

      The local independent lumberyard has Roseburg (based in Oregon "Marine
      Ply". This a a three ply sheet and runs about $50 a sheet (though they
      might discount since it doesn't seem to be a fast mover for them). The
      yard could probably also special order the nicer stuff, but it's still
      going to run that $90 a sheet price by the time they get it in (and no
      discount either).

      So.... has anybody worked with the Roseburg sheet. It's not as pretty
      as the HD Sandeply, but I want a voidless sheet that won't delaminate or
      rot out if stored outside upside down over the winter.

      Thanks again.

      Michael Seitz
      Missoula MT
      __________________________________________________________
      Woman is 57 But Looks 27
      Mom publishes simple facelift trick that angered doctors...
      http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50d34a0df33ff4a0c38c8st04duc



      -- 
                       Doug Pollard, 
            Sailor, Machinst, writer,artist 
                      Visit me at:
           
           http://sailboatsfairandfine.blogspot.com/
           http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DObsRslyJJo
           http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F5DiZASKPs
    • Chris Crandall
      I m not much of a fan of the arguments about price of plywood. It *is* important to keep in mind that the total cost of a boat is pretty high, and the marginal
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 21, 2012
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        I'm not much of a fan of the arguments about price of plywood. It *is*
        important to keep in mind that the total cost of a boat is pretty high,
        and the marginal cost of plywood isn't as large as it seems. Granted.

        Now, ask me to pay three times the list price of nice plywood, when
        shipping is included. So a reasonable plywood sheet might cost me $35,
        and okoume might cost me $60, and so the difference seems small. But one
        of the cheaper shipping options is clcboats.com, they want $123 for
        shipping under 100 lbs. Since that's only 4 sheets of 6mm (1/4"), **each
        sheet** costs me $25 more for the wood, and $32.75 more for the
        shipping. So I'm paying close to $100 a sheet.

        Arguments about resale value hold less water than interior-grade plywood
        boats--first time boatbuilders can rarely get cost-of-materials out of
        selling their used boats.

        In short, asking people to buy the super-fancy plywood is asking a lot.
        It's rarely a good economic choice. It *can* be a good choice, but
        usually not for someone new to the game building their own boats.

        Personally, I've used all kinds of different plywood building boats, and
        for my 22 foot cabin skiff that I'm building now, I'm using half inch
        MDO. It is excellent stuff, and I love using it. Douglas fir from the
        PNW (like me).

        -Chris
      • christiancrandall
        Oops, I was looking at half-sheet prices. The okoume would be about $90 a sheet, so instead of $35/sheet total cost, it s $122.75/sheet total cost. It s a lot
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 21, 2012
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          Oops, I was looking at half-sheet prices. The okoume would be about $90 a sheet, so instead of $35/sheet total cost, it's $122.75/sheet total cost.

          It's a lot of money--enough to make the difference between building it at all. The difference for, say, a Bolger Micro at 12 sheets would be $1,053.00 (in excess of the cheaper plywood), and for a Michalak Frolic 2 (13 sheets), it would be an added $1,140.00.

          Does anyone think that using a better quality plywood for these boats will increase the resale value by over $1,000?

          There are reasons for choosing the best plywood for building these boats. The reasons are non-economic.

          -Chris



          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:
          >
          > Now, ask me to pay three times the list price of nice plywood, when
          > shipping is included. So a reasonable plywood sheet might cost me $35,
          > and okoume might cost me $60, and so the difference seems small. But one
          > of the cheaper shipping options is clcboats.com, they want $123 for
          > shipping under 100 lbs. Since that's only 4 sheets of 6mm (1/4"), **each
          > sheet** costs me $25 more for the wood, and $32.75 more for the
          > shipping. So I'm paying close to $100 a sheet.
          >
        • Bill Howard
          AMEN! Boat building cost $$$$$$$ Marine Plywood Cost $$$$$$ Projected resale value: $zero Having built a first-class boat: PRICELESS
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 21, 2012
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            AMEN!

            Boat building cost $$$$$$$
            Marine Plywood Cost $$$$$$
            Projected resale value:  $zero
            Having built a first-class boat:  PRICELESS


            On Dec 21, 2012, at 4:11 PM, christiancrandall wrote:

            The reasons are non-economic.

          • Douglas Pollard
            I agree when you are building very small square sharpies. Still at some point many will get up into the bigger 20 ft and bigger boats with fairly fine lines.
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 21, 2012
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                I agree when you are building very small square sharpies.  Still at some point many will get up into the bigger 20 ft and bigger boats with fairly fine lines. I gave my Elver as an example. Those boats are selling for several thousand dollars used.  Mine has cheap plywood in her and I will have to tell a buy that, if I sell her.  No I likely would not get the price of the wood out of her but I would likely get a better price.  She has really fine dacron sails  a really good galvanized trailer.  So the truth is the sails and trailor are the only things worth selling and I have had the pleasure of building a boat that has very little value.  I could have bought some plywood and slapped a boat together. Somebody would buy it at some point and user her a little and let her rot because she is not worth anything.  If thats the case why did I build her?  I could have bought an old Megregor 21 for probably less money and sailed the heck out of her. A good boat built out of good wood might well with a little care might well last me 40 or 50 years.           Doug  
               



              On 12/21/2012 05:01 PM, Bill Howard wrote:
               

              AMEN!


              Boat building cost $$$$$$$
              Marine Plywood Cost $$$$$$
              Projected resale value:  $zero
              Having built a first-class boat:  PRICELESS


              On Dec 21, 2012, at 4:11 PM, christiancrandall wrote:

              The reasons are non-economic.



              -- 
                               Doug Pollard, 
                    Sailor, Machinst, writer,artist 
                              Visit me at:
                   
                   http://sailboatsfairandfine.blogspot.com/
                   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DObsRslyJJo
                   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F5DiZASKPs
            • welshman@ptialaska.net
              Resale value would never occur to me in plywood choice. The difference in quality of wood and ease of use sure would. Modern AC plywood is just too crappy to
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 21, 2012
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                Resale value would never occur to me in plywood choice. The difference in quality
                of wood and ease of use sure would. Modern AC plywood is just too crappy to use on
                a boat that I am going to put in over 40 50 hrs of building. I have two gulls in
                the back yard, one built out of AC and one with marine oukume. That was the project
                that convinced me that cheap plywood cost too much. If I am going to invest all
                that time then I want a plywood I can trust not to come apart in 1-5 years.

                HJ
                >
                >
                > Oops, I was looking at half-sheet prices. The okoume would be about $90 a sheet, so
                > instead of $35/sheet total cost, it's $122.75/sheet total cost.
                >
                > It's a lot of money--enough to make the difference between building it at all. The
                > difference for, say, a Bolger Micro at 12 sheets would be $1,053.00 (in excess of
                > the cheaper plywood), and for a Michalak Frolic 2 (13 sheets), it would be an added
                > $1,140.00.
                >
                > Does anyone think that using a better quality plywood for these boats will increase
                > the resale value by over $1,000?
                >
                > There are reasons for choosing the best plywood for building these boats. The
                > reasons are non-economic.
                >
                > -Chris
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> Now, ask me to pay three times the list price of nice plywood, when
                >> shipping is included. So a reasonable plywood sheet might cost me $35,
                >> and okoume might cost me $60, and so the difference seems small. But one
                >> of the cheaper shipping options is clcboats.com, they want $123 for
                >> shipping under 100 lbs. Since that's only 4 sheets of 6mm (1/4"), **each
                >> sheet** costs me $25 more for the wood, and $32.75 more for the
                >> shipping. So I'm paying close to $100 a sheet.
                >>
                >
                >
                >
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              • Michael Seitz
                I suspect I wasn t clear in my original post.... The question is if the Roseburg Marine Plywood is any good (no voids, rot resistance etc). Yes, I don t want
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 22, 2012
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                  I suspect I wasn't clear in my original post....

                  The question is if the Roseburg "Marine Plywood" is any good (no voids,
                  rot resistance etc).

                  Yes, I don't want to gold plate a build if I don't have to. Are BS1088
                  (or whatever) sheets the nicest? Sure, but they certainly can't be the
                  only game in town. Much as we'd like to think that buying the most
                  expensive sheet is the "best", I've heard horror stories of inferior
                  sheets getting that vaunted production stamp. So, the question
                  begs--what sheets (aside from the stamped ones) work? I know a lot of
                  boats are built with other plywood sheets--I'm just asking about one
                  brand (Roseburg).

                  Thanks again.

                  Michael Seitz
                  Missoula MT
                  ____________________________________________________________
                  Woman is 53 But Looks 25
                  Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
                  http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50d5dd93edbce5d927913st03duc
                • Roger Padvorac
                  Michael, There was a delayed reaction to my mind waking up. You might try asking the: The Oregon Coots Chapter of the Traditional Small Craft Association at
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 22, 2012
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                    Michael,
                    There was a delayed reaction to my mind waking up. You might try asking the:
                    The Oregon Coots Chapter of the Traditional Small Craft Association
                    Probably the best way to ask them is to join their discussion group. Its kind of funny that their discussion group (being centered in a valley with a mountain range between them and the sea) is far more active than the discussion group for the Puget Sound Chapter of TSCA.
                     
                    I make this suggestion because the Coots are located about 60 miles north of Roseburg and their local stores are more likely to be stocking plywood made near them. They are also likely to be aware of the challenges facing people who build small boats at home.
                     
                    Sincerely,
                    Roger
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Michael Seitz" <mikefrommontana@...>
                    Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:19 AM
                    Subject: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?

                    >I suspect I wasn't clear in my original post....
                    >
                    >
                    The question is if the Roseburg "Marine Plywood" is any good (no voids,
                    >
                    rot resistance etc).
                    > ...  I know a lot of
                    > boats are
                    built with other plywood sheets--I'm just asking about one
                    > brand
                    (Roseburg).
                    >
                    > Thanks again.
                    >
                    > Michael
                    Seitz
                    > Missoula MT
                    >
                    ____________________________________________________________
                    > Woman is 53
                    But Looks 25
                    > Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered
                    doctors...
                    >
                    href="http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50d5dd93edbce5d927913st03duc">http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50d5dd93edbce5d927913st03duc
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    ------------------------------------
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                  • tom s
                    My 1967 Grand Banks Woodie trawler is still going strong. built out of mahogany, oak and teak without any fiberglass except where I ve puttied the house and
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 22, 2012
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                      My 1967 Grand Banks Woodie trawler is still going strong.  built out of mahogany, oak and teak without any fiberglass except where I've puttied the house and bulwarks.

                      Well built wood boats will long outlast poorly built glass boats.

                      Tom 

                      Sent from my iPad

                      On Dec 21, 2012, at 3:03 PM, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> wrote:

                       

                        I agree when you are building very small square sharpies.  Still at some point many will get up into the bigger 20 ft and bigger boats with fairly fine lines. I gave my Elver as an example. Those boats are selling for several thousand dollars used.  Mine has cheap plywood in her and I will have to tell a buy that, if I sell her.  No I likely would not get the price of the wood out of her but I would likely get a better price.  She has really fine dacron sails  a really good galvanized trailer.  So the truth is the sails and trailor are the only things worth selling and I have had the pleasure of building a boat that has very little value.  I could have bought some plywood and slapped a boat together. Somebody would buy it at some point and user her a little and let her rot because she is not worth anything.  If thats the case why did I build her?  I could have bought an old Megregor 21 for probably less money and sailed the heck out of her. A good boat built out of good wood might well with a little care might well last me 40 or 50 years.           Doug  
                       



                      On 12/21/2012 05:01 PM, Bill Howard wrote:
                       

                      AMEN!


                      Boat building cost $$$$$$$
                      Marine Plywood Cost $$$$$$
                      Projected resale value:  $zero
                      Having built a first-class boat:  PRICELESS


                      On Dec 21, 2012, at 4:11 PM, christiancrandall wrote:

                      The reasons are non-economic.



                      -- 
                                       Doug Pollard, 
                            Sailor, Machinst, writer,artist 
                                      Visit me at:
                           
                           http://sailboatsfairandfine.blogspot.com/
                           http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DObsRslyJJo
                           http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F5DiZASKPs

                    • John Kohnen
                      Roseburg Forest Products is a pretty good manufacturer of plywood. The Toledo Boathouse just built a Michalak skiff using their AC exterior plywood and it
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 22, 2012
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                        Roseburg Forest Products is a pretty good manufacturer of plywood. The
                        Toledo Boathouse just built a Michalak skiff using their AC exterior
                        plywood and it looked good, even seemed to have Doug fir for the core (I
                        remember when the workers from the plywood mill (now defunct) down the
                        road from a biker bar I hung out in got all scandalized when they started
                        putting cottonwood core plies in their fir plywood! <g>). I don't recall
                        seeing any Roseburg marine plywood, but it's probably as good as any fir
                        marine plywood these days. Doug fir is more rot resistant than okoume and
                        the glue used in marine and exterior fir plywood is phenol formaldehyde,
                        about as waterproof as you can get, but the standards for American
                        "marine" plywood have been watered way down. :o( There will probably be a
                        few interior voids in each sheet, and several "football" patches in the
                        face plies. But the biggest problem with fir plywood is that it checks if
                        you don't sheathe it with fiberglass. The checking seems worse nowadays
                        than it used to be, probably because of stresses in the veneers from being
                        peeled from smaller trees. <shrug> Checking doesn't seem to affect the
                        life of a boat, but is unsightly, and _looks_ like it oughta be bad. But
                        there are plenty of old plywood boats around that were never sheathed with
                        fiberglass. <shrug> A boat built with Roseburg marine plywood will
                        probably be plenty durable enough.

                        http://www.roseburg.com/

                        The Coots group:

                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/

                        My nephew is chef d'cuisine at The Pearl in Missoula. :o)

                        --
                        John (jkohnen@...)
                        Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit
                        tenant for the mind of an honest man. (Robert G. Ingersoll)
                      • Dennis Mcfadden
                        I m with John on this in that I used marine grade fir ply ( maunufacturer unknown, purchased in Vancouver, Canada) . I coated it with epoxy but no fabric,
                        Message 11 of 21 , Dec 22, 2012
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                          I'm with John on this in that I used marine grade fir ply ( maunufacturer unknown, purchased in Vancouver, Canada) . I coated it with epoxy but no fabric, followed with a polyurethane (I think). The checking set in shortly thereafter. I have sanded down to the point where the black glue between layers is discoloring the deck. A new coat of epoxy plus f/g fabric will hopefully prevent further checking. Varnish to follow when the weather warms up. The checking is a pain...
                           
                          Dennis
                           
                          > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                          > From: jhkohnen@...
                          > Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 21:13:22 -0800
                          > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?
                          >
                          > Roseburg Forest Products is a pretty good manufacturer of plywood. The
                          > Toledo Boathouse just built a Michalak skiff using their AC exterior
                          > plywood and it looked good, even seemed to have Doug fir for the core (I
                          > remember when the workers from the plywood mill (now defunct) down the
                          > road from a biker bar I hung out in got all scandalized when they started
                          > putting cottonwood core plies in their fir plywood! <g>). I don't recall
                          > seeing any Roseburg marine plywood, but it's probably as good as any fir
                          > marine plywood these days. Doug fir is more rot resistant than okoume and
                          > the glue used in marine and exterior fir plywood is phenol formaldehyde,
                          > about as waterproof as you can get, but the standards for American
                          > "marine" plywood have been watered way down. :o( There will probably be a
                          > few interior voids in each sheet, and several "football" patches in the
                          > face plies. But the biggest problem with fir plywood is that it checks if
                          > you don't sheathe it with fiberglass. The checking seems worse nowadays
                          > than it used to be, probably because of stresses in the veneers from being
                          > peeled from smaller trees. <shrug> Checking doesn't seem to affect the
                          > life of a boat, but is unsightly, and _looks_ like it oughta be bad. But
                          > there are plenty of old plywood boats around that were never sheathed with
                          > fiberglass. <shrug> A boat built with Roseburg marine plywood will
                          > probably be plenty durable enough.
                          >
                          > http://www.roseburg.com/
                          >
                          > The Coots group:
                          >
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/
                          >
                          > My nephew is chef d'cuisine at The Pearl in Missoula. :o)
                          >
                          > --
                          > John (jkohnen@...)
                          > Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit
                          > tenant for the mind of an honest man. (Robert G. Ingersoll)
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
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                        • Tim Jennings
                          This topic has been discussed many times on other forums, with no clear answer, as it seems to depend on one s situation. I ve asked Roseburg via e-mail what
                          Message 12 of 21 , Dec 23, 2012
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                            This topic has been discussed many times on other forums, with no clear answer, as it seems to depend on one's situation.  I've asked Roseburg via e-mail what is the difference bewteen thier sanded exterior grade panels and their marine plys, but have never gotten an answer.  The web site specs for both are indentical, though the price for the marine is double the cost of the sanded exterior.  Maybe the only difference is that one is stamped "marine?" 
                             
                            If a plywood is made with waterprool glue and has no voids or repairs, and one is going to thoroughly coat the ply with several coats of resin and glass, why not use it? 
                             
                            Tim Jennings
                            Enfield, NH 
                             
                            On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 12:21 AM, Dennis Mcfadden <dennis-mcfadden@...> wrote:
                             

                            I'm with John on this in that I used marine grade fir ply ( maunufacturer unknown, purchased in Vancouver, Canada) . I coated it with epoxy but no fabric, followed with a polyurethane (I think). The checking set in shortly thereafter. I have sanded down to the point where the black glue between layers is discoloring the deck. A new coat of epoxy plus f/g fabric will hopefully prevent further checking. Varnish to follow when the weather warms up. The checking is a pain...
                             
                            Dennis
                             
                            > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                            > From: jhkohnen@...
                            > Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 21:13:22 -0800
                            > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?
                            >
                            > Roseburg Forest Products is a pretty good manufacturer of plywood. The
                            > Toledo Boathouse just built a Michalak skiff using their AC exterior
                            > plywood and it looked good, even seemed to have Doug fir for the core (I
                            > remember when the workers from the plywood mill (now defunct) down the
                            > road from a biker bar I hung out in got all scandalized when they started
                            > putting cottonwood core plies in their fir plywood! <g>). I don't recall
                            > seeing any Roseburg marine plywood, but it's probably as good as any fir
                            > marine plywood these days. Doug fir is more rot resistant than okoume and
                            > the glue used in marine and exterior fir plywood is phenol formaldehyde,
                            > about as waterproof as you can get, but the standards for American
                            > "marine" plywood have been watered way down. :o( There will probably be a
                            > few interior voids in each sheet, and several "football" patches in the
                            > face plies. But the biggest problem with fir plywood is that it checks if
                            > you don't sheathe it with fiberglass. The checking seems worse nowadays
                            > than it used to be, probably because of stresses in the veneers from being
                            > peeled from smaller trees. <shrug> Checking doesn't seem to affect the
                            > life of a boat, but is unsightly, and _looks_ like it oughta be bad. But
                            > there are plenty of old plywood boats around that were never sheathed with
                            > fiberglass. <shrug> A boat built with Roseburg marine plywood will
                            > probably be plenty durable enough.
                            >
                            > http://www.roseburg.com/
                            >
                            > The Coots group:
                            >
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/
                            >
                            > My nephew is chef d'cuisine at The Pearl in Missoula. :o)
                            >
                            > --
                            > John (jkohnen@...)
                            > Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit
                            > tenant for the mind of an honest man. (Robert G. Ingersoll)
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Bolger rules!!!
                            > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                            > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                            > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                            > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                            > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                            > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
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                            >




                            --
                            Tim Jennings
                            Director of Facilities
                            Cardigan Mountain School
                            62 Alumni Drive
                            Canaan, NH 03741
                            Phone: (603)523-3536
                            Cell:     (603)443-0279
                            Fax:     (603)523-3550
                            Home:  (603)632-
                            Email:   tjennings@...
                            WWW: http://www.cardigan.org
                          • Mike Graf
                            Great info from John(as usual) Douglas fir is the original marine ply before we started shipping in from all over the world. Roseburg would be foolish tell
                            Message 13 of 21 , Dec 24, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Great info from John(as usual)   Douglas fir is the original marine ply before we started shipping in from all over the world. Roseburg would be foolish  tell you to buy a product with lower profit margin. Marine today means "charge me more" doesn't it? DG not only rot resistant but pretty light. The yellow pine ply on the east coast is rot resistant(and real tough) but heavy
                              All company's do what they call multi marketing....sell the same product(under different labels) to different markets
                              High quality marine ply's provide a perfect finish...........and then most people cover it w/epoxy and glass???

                              On 12/23/2012 03:01 PM, Tim Jennings wrote:
                               
                              This topic has been discussed many times on other forums, with no clear answer, as it seems to depend on one's situation.  I've asked Roseburg via e-mail what is the difference bewteen thier sanded exterior grade panels and their marine plys, but have never gotten an answer.  The web site specs for both are indentical, though the price for the marine is double the cost of the sanded exterior.  Maybe the only difference is that one is stamped "marine?" 
                               
                              If a plywood is made with waterprool glue and has no voids or repairs, and one is going to thoroughly coat the ply with several coats of resin and glass, why not use it? 
                               
                              Tim Jennings
                              Enfield, NH 
                               
                              On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 12:21 AM, Dennis Mcfadden <dennis-mcfadden@...> wrote:
                               

                              I'm with John on this in that I used marine grade fir ply ( maunufacturer unknown, purchased in Vancouver, Canada) . I coated it with epoxy but no fabric, followed with a polyurethane (I think). The checking set in shortly thereafter. I have sanded down to the point where the black glue between layers is discoloring the deck. A new coat of epoxy plus f/g fabric will hopefully prevent further checking. Varnish to follow when the weather warms up. The checking is a pain...
                               
                              Dennis
                               
                              > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                              > From: jhkohnen@...
                              > Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 21:13:22 -0800
                              > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?
                              >
                              > Roseburg Forest Products is a pretty good manufacturer of plywood. The
                              > Toledo Boathouse just built a Michalak skiff using their AC exterior
                              > plywood and it looked good, even seemed to have Doug fir for the core (I
                              > remember when the workers from the plywood mill (now defunct) down the
                              > road from a biker bar I hung out in got all scandalized when they started
                              > putting cottonwood core plies in their fir plywood! <g>). I don't recall
                              > seeing any Roseburg marine plywood, but it's probably as good as any fir
                              > marine plywood these days. Doug fir is more rot resistant than okoume and
                              > the glue used in marine and exterior fir plywood is phenol formaldehyde,
                              > about as waterproof as you can get, but the standards for American
                              > "marine" plywood have been watered way down. :o( There will probably be a
                              > few interior voids in each sheet, and several "football" patches in the
                              > face plies. But the biggest problem with fir plywood is that it checks if
                              > you don't sheathe it with fiberglass. The checking seems worse nowadays
                              > than it used to be, probably because of stresses in the veneers from being
                              > peeled from smaller trees. <shrug> Checking doesn't seem to affect the
                              > life of a boat, but is unsightly, and _looks_ like it oughta be bad. But
                              > there are plenty of old plywood boats around that were never sheathed with
                              > fiberglass. <shrug> A boat built with Roseburg marine plywood will
                              > probably be plenty durable enough.
                              >
                              > http://www.roseburg.com/
                              >
                              > The Coots group:
                              >
                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/
                              >
                              > My nephew is chef d'cuisine at The Pearl in Missoula. :o)
                              >
                              > --
                              > John (jkohnen@...)
                              > Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit
                              > tenant for the mind of an honest man. (Robert G. Ingersoll)
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Bolger rules!!!
                              > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                              > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                              > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                              > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                              > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                              > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
                              >
                              > <*> Your email settings:
                              > Individual Email | Traditional
                              >
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                              >
                              > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >



                              --
                              Tim Jennings
                              Director of Facilities
                              Cardigan Mountain School
                              62 Alumni Drive
                              Canaan, NH 03741
                              Phone: (603)523-3536
                              Cell:     (603)443-0279
                              Fax:     (603)523-3550
                              Home:  (603)632-
                              Email:   tjennings@...
                              WWW: http://www.cardigan.org

                            • Wayne Gilham
                              Checking of plywood is not necessarily a recent phenom... my Black Skimmer, built in Maine way back in the 70 s as far as I can determine, had some panels
                              Message 14 of 21 , Dec 24, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment

                                Checking of plywood is not necessarily a "recent" phenom...  my Black Skimmer, built in Maine way back in the '70's as far as I can determine, had some panels that were checking vigorously, some not so much by this century.  (subsequently have sold the BS, hope the next owner really DOES put cloth and resin over the checking panels...)  Sorry, do not know if this was built of FIR or east-coast plywood.

                                 

                                Another little runabout I built back in the '60's (here in Pacific NW) used MDO = fir ply, virtually void-less, with a paper-coating applied by the factory, stuck-on with same (or similar) phenol glues, I believe... THAT surface, without epoxy, without glass-sheathing except at joints, "held" the marine-enamel without ANY checking for as long as I kept track of that boat, some 6-8 years...  MDO would be my choice to this day (only wish the mills would make 1/4" MDO, but no call for it from sign-makers (the product's biggest market) as 1/4" is too "floppy" for free-standing highway signs, etc -- 3/8" is the thinnest I've ever found....)

                                 

                                Wayne Gilham

                                 

                                From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dennis Mcfadden
                                Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 9:21 PM
                                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?

                                 

                                 

                                I'm with John on this in that I used marine grade fir ply ( maunufacturer unknown, purchased in Vancouver, Canada) . I coated it with epoxy but no fabric, followed with a polyurethane (I think). The checking set in shortly thereafter. I have sanded down to the point where the black glue between layers is discoloring the deck. A new coat of epoxy plus f/g fabric will hopefully prevent further checking. Varnish to follow when the weather warms up. The checking is a pain...
                                 
                                Dennis
                                 

                                > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com

                                > From: jhkohnen@...
                                > Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 21:13:22 -0800
                                > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?
                                >
                                > Roseburg Forest Products is a pretty good manufacturer of plywood. The
                                > Toledo Boathouse just built a Michalak skiff using their AC exterior
                                > plywood and it looked good, even seemed to have Doug fir for the core (I
                                > remember when the workers from the plywood mill (now defunct) down the
                                > road from a biker bar I hung out in got all scandalized when they started
                                > putting cottonwood core plies in their fir plywood! <g>). I don't recall
                                > seeing any Roseburg marine plywood, but it's probably as good as any fir
                                > marine plywood these days. Doug fir is more rot resistant than okoume and
                                > the glue used in marine and exterior fir plywood is phenol formaldehyde,
                                > about as waterproof as you can get, but the standards for American
                                > "marine" plywood have been watered way down. :o( There will probably be a
                                > few interior voids in each sheet, and several "football" patches in the
                                > face plies. But the biggest problem with fir plywood is that it checks if
                                > you don't sheathe it with fiberglass. The checking seems worse nowadays
                                > than it used to be, probably because of stresses in the veneers from being
                                > peeled from smaller trees. <shrug> Checking doesn't seem to affect the
                                > life of a boat, but is unsightly, and _looks_ like it oughta be bad. But
                                > there are plenty of old plywood boats around that were never sheathed with
                                > fiberglass. <shrug> A boat built with Roseburg marine plywood will
                                > probably be plenty durable enough.
                                >
                                > http://www.roseburg.com/
                                >
                                > The Coots group:
                                >
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/
                                >
                                > My nephew is chef d'cuisine at The Pearl in Missoula. :o)
                                >
                                > --
                                > John (jkohnen@...)
                                > Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit
                                > tenant for the mind of an honest man. (Robert G. Ingersoll)
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Bolger rules!!!
                                > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                                > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                                > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
                                >
                                > <*> Your email settings:
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                                >
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                                >

                              • philbolger@comcast.net
                                Just about all (recent) Doug.Fir seems prone to checking, and misbehaves most likely around footballs , present even on most A -surfaces I ve run across.
                                Message 15 of 21 , Dec 24, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Just about all (recent) Doug.Fir seems prone to checking, and misbehaves most likely around 'footballs', present even on most 'A'-surfaces I've run across.  Ergo always glass-cloth set in epoxy on all outside Doug Fir surfaces - which in this project meant rebuilding all pieces on a table, if at possible, all the way to first layers of paint.  On working-type SACPAS-3 we went with two layers of 10oz cloth on the hull proper and single layer on house and roof and everywhere 'outside', including the really tedious areas and corners.  Doing most of the finishing work on tables allows decent finish faster without 'hanging upside-down' heart-breaking exertions.  Seams require rigorous policy to not have things 'move' over time.

                                  Susanne Altenburger, PB&F 
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Mike Graf
                                  Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 11:42 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?

                                   

                                  Great info from John(as usual)   Douglas fir is the original marine ply before we started shipping in from all over the world. Roseburg would be foolish  tell you to buy a product with lower profit margin. Marine today means "charge me more" doesn't it? DG not only rot resistant but pretty light. The yellow pine ply on the east coast is rot resistant(and real tough) but heavy
                                  All company's do what they call multi marketing....sell the same product(under different labels) to different markets
                                  High quality marine ply's provide a perfect finish...........and then most people cover it w/epoxy and glass???

                                  On 12/23/2012 03:01 PM, Tim Jennings wrote:
                                   
                                  This topic has been discussed many times on other forums, with no clear answer, as it seems to depend on one's situation.  I've asked Roseburg via e-mail what is the difference bewteen thier sanded exterior grade panels and their marine plys, but have never gotten an answer.  The web site specs for both are indentical, though the price for the marine is double the cost of the sanded exterior.  Maybe the only difference is that one is stamped "marine?" 
                                   
                                  If a plywood is made with waterprool glue and has no voids or repairs, and one is going to thoroughly coat the ply with several coats of resin and glass, why not use it? 
                                   
                                  Tim Jennings
                                  Enfield, NH 
                                   
                                  On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 12:21 AM, Dennis Mcfadden <dennis-mcfadden@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  I'm with John on this in that I used marine grade fir ply ( maunufacturer unknown, purchased in Vancouver, Canada) . I coated it with epoxy but no fabric, followed with a polyurethane (I think). The checking set in shortly thereafter. I have sanded down to the point where the black glue between layers is discoloring the deck. A new coat of epoxy plus f/g fabric will hopefully prevent further checking. Varnish to follow when the weather warms up. The checking is a pain...
                                   
                                  Dennis
                                   
                                  > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                  > From: jhkohnen@...
                                  > Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 21:13:22 -0800
                                  > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?
                                  >
                                  > Roseburg Forest Products is a pretty good manufacturer of plywood. The
                                  > Toledo Boathouse just built a Michalak skiff using their AC exterior
                                  > plywood and it looked good, even seemed to have Doug fir for the core (I
                                  > remember when the workers from the plywood mill (now defunct) down the
                                  > road from a biker bar I hung out in got all scandalized when they started
                                  > putting cottonwood core plies in their fir plywood! <g>). I don't recall
                                  > seeing any Roseburg marine plywood, but it's probably as good as any fir
                                  > marine plywood these days. Doug fir is more rot resistant than okoume and
                                  > the glue used in marine and exterior fir plywood is phenol formaldehyde,
                                  > about as waterproof as you can get, but the standards for American
                                  > "marine" plywood have been watered way down. :o( There will probably be a
                                  > few interior voids in each sheet, and several "football" patches in the
                                  > face plies. But the biggest problem with fir plywood is that it checks if
                                  > you don't sheathe it with fiberglass. The checking seems worse nowadays
                                  > than it used to be, probably because of stresses in the veneers from being
                                  > peeled from smaller trees. <shrug> Checking doesn't seem to affect the
                                  > life of a boat, but is unsightly, and _looks_ like it oughta be bad. But
                                  > there are plenty of old plywood boats around that were never sheathed with
                                  > fiberglass. <shrug> A boat built with Roseburg marine plywood will
                                  > probably be plenty durable enough.
                                  >
                                  > http://www.roseburg.com/
                                  >
                                  > The Coots group:
                                  >
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/
                                  >
                                  > My nephew is chef d'cuisine at The Pearl in Missoula. :o)
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > John (jkohnen@...)
                                  > Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit
                                  > tenant for the mind of an honest man. (Robert G. Ingersoll)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Bolger rules!!!
                                  > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                                  > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                                  > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                  > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                  > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                  > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
                                  >
                                  > <*> Your email settings:
                                  > Individual Email | Traditional
                                  >
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                                  >
                                  > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >



                                  --
                                  Tim Jennings
                                  Director of Facilities
                                  Cardigan Mountain School
                                  62 Alumni Drive
                                  Canaan, NH 03741
                                  Phone: (603)523-3536
                                  Cell:     (603)443-0279
                                  Fax:     (603)523-3550
                                  Home:  (603)632-
                                  Email:   tjennings@...
                                  WWW: http://www.cardigan.org

                              • philbolger@comcast.net
                                That question re-crossed my mind just now. My concern is on all joints having paper between the wood - or will just machining it off in those limited areas do
                                Message 16 of 21 , Dec 24, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  That question re-crossed my mind just now.  My concern is on all joints having paper between the wood - or will just machining it off in those limited areas do the job ? 

                                  How does epoxy and glass-cloth over MDO-paper work long-term on a hull-surface (vs. house and interior) ?

                                  Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 12:49 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"? (fir-ply checking - MDO as solution?)

                                   

                                  Checking of plywood is not necessarily a "recent" phenom...  my Black Skimmer, built in Maine way back in the '70's as far as I can determine, had some panels that were checking vigorously, some not so much by this century.  (subsequently have sold the BS, hope the next owner really DOES put cloth and resin over the checking panels...)  Sorry, do not know if this was built of FIR or east-coast plywood.

                                  Another little runabout I built back in the '60's (here in Pacific NW) used MDO = fir ply, virtually void-less, with a paper-coating applied by the factory, stuck-on with same (or similar) phenol glues, I believe... THAT surface, without epoxy, without glass-sheathing except at joints, "held" the marine-enamel without ANY checking for as long as I kept track of that boat, some 6-8 years...  MDO would be my choice to this day (only wish the mills would make 1/4" MDO, but no call for it from sign-makers (the product's biggest market) as 1/4" is too "floppy" for free-standing highway signs, etc -- 3/8" is the thinnest I've ever found....)

                                  Wayne Gilham

                                  From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dennis Mcfadden
                                  Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 9:21 PM
                                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?

                                   

                                  I'm with John on this in that I used marine grade fir ply ( maunufacturer unknown, purchased in Vancouver, Canada) . I coated it with epoxy but no fabric, followed with a polyurethane (I think). The checking set in shortly thereafter. I have sanded down to the point where the black glue between layers is discoloring the deck. A new coat of epoxy plus f/g fabric will hopefully prevent further checking. Varnish to follow when the weather warms up. The checking is a pain...
                                   
                                  Dennis
                                   

                                  > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                  > From: jhkohnen@...
                                  > Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 21:13:22 -0800
                                  > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?
                                  >
                                  > Roseburg Forest Products is a pretty good manufacturer of plywood. The
                                  > Toledo Boathouse just built a Michalak skiff using their AC exterior
                                  > plywood and it looked good, even seemed to have Doug fir for the core (I
                                  > remember when the workers from the plywood mill (now defunct) down the
                                  > road from a biker bar I hung out in got all scandalized when they started
                                  > putting cottonwood core plies in their fir plywood! <g>). I don't recall
                                  > seeing any Roseburg marine plywood, but it's probably as good as any fir
                                  > marine plywood these days. Doug fir is more rot resistant than okoume and
                                  > the glue used in marine and exterior fir plywood is phenol formaldehyde,
                                  > about as waterproof as you can get, but the standards for American
                                  > "marine" plywood have been watered way down. :o( There will probably be a
                                  > few interior voids in each sheet, and several "football" patches in the
                                  > face plies. But the biggest problem with fir plywood is that it checks if
                                  > you don't sheathe it with fiberglass. The checking seems worse nowadays
                                  > than it used to be, probably because of stresses in the veneers from being
                                  > peeled from smaller trees. <shrug> Checking doesn't seem to affect the
                                  > life of a boat, but is unsightly, and _looks_ like it oughta be bad. But
                                  > there are plenty of old plywood boats around that were never sheathed with
                                  > fiberglass. <shrug> A boat built with Roseburg marine plywood will
                                  > probably be plenty durable enough.
                                  >
                                  > http://www.roseburg.com/
                                  >
                                  > The Coots group:
                                  >
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/
                                  >
                                  > My nephew is chef d'cuisine at The Pearl in Missoula. :o)
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > John (jkohnen@...)
                                  > Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit
                                  > tenant for the mind of an honest man. (Robert G. Ingersoll)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Bolger rules!!!
                                  > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                                  > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                                  > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                  > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                  > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                  > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                                • philbolger@comcast.net
                                  Prebuilding that it - with a p - all to avoid Rebuilding anytime soon... Susanne Altenburger, PB&F ... From: philbolger@comcast.net To:
                                  Message 17 of 21 , Dec 24, 2012
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                                    'Prebuilding' that it - with a p - all to avoid 'Rebuilding' anytime soon...

                                    Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 12:55 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"? (fir-ply checking - MDO as solution?)

                                    That question re-crossed my mind just now.  My concern is on all joints having paper between the wood - or will just machining it off in those limited areas do the job ? 

                                    How does epoxy and glass-cloth over MDO-paper work long-term on a hull-surface (vs. house and interior) ?

                                    Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 12:49 PM
                                    Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"? (fir-ply checking - MDO as solution?)

                                     

                                    Checking of plywood is not necessarily a "recent" phenom...  my Black Skimmer, built in Maine way back in the '70's as far as I can determine, had some panels that were checking vigorously, some not so much by this century.  (subsequently have sold the BS, hope the next owner really DOES put cloth and resin over the checking panels...)  Sorry, do not know if this was built of FIR or east-coast plywood.

                                    Another little runabout I built back in the '60's (here in Pacific NW) used MDO = fir ply, virtually void-less, with a paper-coating applied by the factory, stuck-on with same (or similar) phenol glues, I believe... THAT surface, without epoxy, without glass-sheathing except at joints, "held" the marine-enamel without ANY checking for as long as I kept track of that boat, some 6-8 years...  MDO would be my choice to this day (only wish the mills would make 1/4" MDO, but no call for it from sign-makers (the product's biggest market) as 1/4" is too "floppy" for free-standing highway signs, etc -- 3/8" is the thinnest I've ever found....)

                                    Wayne Gilham

                                    From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dennis Mcfadden
                                    Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 9:21 PM
                                    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?

                                     

                                    I'm with John on this in that I used marine grade fir ply ( maunufacturer unknown, purchased in Vancouver, Canada) . I coated it with epoxy but no fabric, followed with a polyurethane (I think). The checking set in shortly thereafter. I have sanded down to the point where the black glue between layers is discoloring the deck. A new coat of epoxy plus f/g fabric will hopefully prevent further checking. Varnish to follow when the weather warms up. The checking is a pain...
                                     
                                    Dennis
                                     

                                    > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                    > From: jhkohnen@...
                                    > Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 21:13:22 -0800
                                    > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?
                                    >
                                    > Roseburg Forest Products is a pretty good manufacturer of plywood. The
                                    > Toledo Boathouse just built a Michalak skiff using their AC exterior
                                    > plywood and it looked good, even seemed to have Doug fir for the core (I
                                    > remember when the workers from the plywood mill (now defunct) down the
                                    > road from a biker bar I hung out in got all scandalized when they started
                                    > putting cottonwood core plies in their fir plywood! <g>). I don't recall
                                    > seeing any Roseburg marine plywood, but it's probably as good as any fir
                                    > marine plywood these days. Doug fir is more rot resistant than okoume and
                                    > the glue used in marine and exterior fir plywood is phenol formaldehyde,
                                    > about as waterproof as you can get, but the standards for American
                                    > "marine" plywood have been watered way down. :o( There will probably be a
                                    > few interior voids in each sheet, and several "football" patches in the
                                    > face plies. But the biggest problem with fir plywood is that it checks if
                                    > you don't sheathe it with fiberglass. The checking seems worse nowadays
                                    > than it used to be, probably because of stresses in the veneers from being
                                    > peeled from smaller trees. <shrug> Checking doesn't seem to affect the
                                    > life of a boat, but is unsightly, and _looks_ like it oughta be bad. But
                                    > there are plenty of old plywood boats around that were never sheathed with
                                    > fiberglass. <shrug> A boat built with Roseburg marine plywood will
                                    > probably be plenty durable enough.
                                    >
                                    > http://www.roseburg.com/
                                    >
                                    > The Coots group:
                                    >
                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/
                                    >
                                    > My nephew is chef d'cuisine at The Pearl in Missoula. :o)
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > John (jkohnen@...)
                                    > Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit
                                    > tenant for the mind of an honest man. (Robert G. Ingersoll)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Bolger rules!!!
                                    > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                                    > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                                    > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                    > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                    > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                    > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                                    >
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                                    >
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                                  • welshman@ptialaska.net
                                    Where are you getting MDO these days? And what brand ? HJ Checking of plywood is not necessarily a recent phenom... my Black Skimmer,
                                    Message 18 of 21 , Dec 24, 2012
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                                      Where are you getting MDO these days? And what "brand"?

                                      HJ

                                      Checking of plywood is not necessarily a "recent" phenom... my Black Skimmer,
                                      > built in Maine way
                                      > back in the '70's as far as I can determine, had some panels that were checking
                                      > vigorously, some not
                                      > so much by this century. (subsequently have sold the BS, hope the next owner
                                      > really DOES put cloth
                                      > and resin over the checking panels...) Sorry, do not know if this was built of FIR
                                      > or east-coast
                                      > plywood.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Another little runabout I built back in the '60's (here in Pacific NW) used MDO =
                                      > fir ply, virtually
                                      > void-less, with a paper-coating applied by the factory, stuck-on with same (or
                                      > similar) phenol
                                      > glues, I believe... THAT surface, without epoxy, without glass-sheathing except at
                                      > joints, "held"
                                      > the marine-enamel without ANY checking for as long as I kept track of that boat,
                                      > some 6-8 years...
                                      > MDO would be my choice to this day (only wish the mills would make 1/4" MDO, but no
                                      > call for it from
                                      > sign-makers (the product's biggest market) as 1/4" is too "floppy" for
                                      > free-standing highway signs,
                                      > etc -- 3/8" is the thinnest I've ever found....)
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Wayne Gilham
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dennis
                                      > Mcfadden
                                      > Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 9:21 PM
                                      > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I'm with John on this in that I used marine grade fir ply ( maunufacturer unknown,
                                      > purchased in
                                      > Vancouver, Canada) . I coated it with epoxy but no fabric, followed with a
                                      > polyurethane (I think).
                                      > The checking set in shortly thereafter. I have sanded down to the point where the
                                      > black glue between
                                      > layers is discoloring the deck. A new coat of epoxy plus f/g fabric will hopefully
                                      > prevent further
                                      > checking. Varnish to follow when the weather warms up. The checking is a pain...
                                      >
                                      > Dennis
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >> To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                      >> From: jhkohnen@...
                                      >> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 21:13:22 -0800
                                      >> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?
                                      >>
                                      >> Roseburg Forest Products is a pretty good manufacturer of plywood. The
                                      >> Toledo Boathouse just built a Michalak skiff using their AC exterior
                                      >> plywood and it looked good, even seemed to have Doug fir for the core (I
                                      >> remember when the workers from the plywood mill (now defunct) down the
                                      >> road from a biker bar I hung out in got all scandalized when they started
                                      >> putting cottonwood core plies in their fir plywood! <g>). I don't recall
                                      >> seeing any Roseburg marine plywood, but it's probably as good as any fir
                                      >> marine plywood these days. Doug fir is more rot resistant than okoume and
                                      >> the glue used in marine and exterior fir plywood is phenol formaldehyde,
                                      >> about as waterproof as you can get, but the standards for American
                                      >> "marine" plywood have been watered way down. :o( There will probably be a
                                      >> few interior voids in each sheet, and several "football" patches in the
                                      >> face plies. But the biggest problem with fir plywood is that it checks if
                                      >> you don't sheathe it with fiberglass. The checking seems worse nowadays
                                      >> than it used to be, probably because of stresses in the veneers from being
                                      >> peeled from smaller trees. <shrug> Checking doesn't seem to affect the
                                      >> life of a boat, but is unsightly, and _looks_ like it oughta be bad. But
                                      >> there are plenty of old plywood boats around that were never sheathed with
                                      >> fiberglass. <shrug> A boat built with Roseburg marine plywood will
                                      >> probably be plenty durable enough.
                                      >>
                                      >> http://www.roseburg.com/
                                      >>
                                      >> The Coots group:
                                      >>
                                      >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/
                                      >>
                                      >> My nephew is chef d'cuisine at The Pearl in Missoula. :o)
                                      >>
                                      >> --
                                      >> John (jkohnen@...)
                                      >> Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit
                                      >> tenant for the mind of an honest man. (Robert G. Ingersoll)
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> ------------------------------------
                                      >>
                                      >> Bolger rules!!!
                                      >> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                                      >> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                                      >> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                      >> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                      >> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978)
                                      >> 282-1349
                                      >> - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      >> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups
                                      >> Links
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • John Kohnen
                                      If you worry about the paper overlay of MDO you should worry about the veneers coming apart too. ;o) The overlay is impregnated with the same goo that holds
                                      Message 19 of 21 , Dec 24, 2012
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                                        If you worry about the "paper" overlay of MDO you should worry about the
                                        veneers coming apart too. ;o) The overlay is impregnated with the same goo
                                        that holds the plywood together. It soaks up epoxy, and joints to it are
                                        as strong as joints to bare plywood.

                                        Sheathing MDO with fiberglass is a waste, though it'll work fine. You can
                                        get MDO that's only got the overlay on one side, and then put the bare
                                        side out where you need sheathing. MDO is usually just painted.

                                        MDO is just the name of a type of plywood, there are different grades of
                                        it, and the quality can differ between manufacturers. Oly Panel (formerly
                                        Simpson) in Shelton, Wash. makes a couple of good MDOs, their Signal and
                                        Crezon. A friend of mine built a Kayleigh out of Crezon MDO and it's
                                        holding up well:

                                        http://www.olypanel.com/

                                        Some of the last makers of lapstrake runabouts use(d?) MDO for the planks.

                                        On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:55:25 -0800, Susanne wrote:

                                        > That question re-crossed my mind just now. My concern is on all joints
                                        > having paper between the wood - or will just machining it off in those
                                        > limited areas do the job ?
                                        >
                                        > How does epoxy and glass-cloth over MDO-paper work long-term on a
                                        > hull-surface (vs. house and interior) ?
                                        > ...

                                        --
                                        John (jkohnen@...)
                                        Nothing is really work unless you would rather be doing
                                        something else. (Sir James Barrie)
                                      • RSS
                                        On my first plywood boat I fell for the myth that simply coating it with epoxy would keep it from checking. Huh! After that I glass everything. Hull,
                                        Message 20 of 21 , Dec 25, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          On my first plywood boat I fell for the myth that simply coating it with epoxy would keep it from checking. Huh! After that I glass everything. Hull, superstructure, everything. No more problems. It may cost more to start with, but the reduced maintenance is worth it to me as I am not one of those people who love working on the boat more than being out using it! I love building, but the maintenance after,not! At this point in life I am wishing I had an all aluminum boat so I could totally ignore everything.
                                          Bob


                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I'm with John on this in that I used marine grade fir ply ( maunufacturer unknown, purchased in
                                          > Vancouver, Canada) . I coated it with epoxy but no fabric, followed with a polyurethane (I think).
                                          > The checking set in shortly thereafter. I have sanded down to the point where the black glue between
                                          > layers is discoloring the deck. A new coat of epoxy plus f/g fabric will hopefully prevent further
                                          > checking. Varnish to follow when the weather warms up. The checking is a pain...
                                          >
                                          > Dennis
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > From: jhkohnen@...
                                          > > Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 21:13:22 -0800
                                          > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?
                                          > >
                                          > > Roseburg Forest Products is a pretty good manufacturer of plywood. The
                                          > > Toledo Boathouse just built a Michalak skiff using their AC exterior
                                          > > plywood and it looked good, even seemed to have Doug fir for the core (I
                                          > > remember when the workers from the plywood mill (now defunct) down the
                                          > > road from a biker bar I hung out in got all scandalized when they started
                                          > > putting cottonwood core plies in their fir plywood! <g>). I don't recall
                                          > > seeing any Roseburg marine plywood, but it's probably as good as any fir
                                          > > marine plywood these days. Doug fir is more rot resistant than okoume and
                                          > > the glue used in marine and exterior fir plywood is phenol formaldehyde,
                                          > > about as waterproof as you can get, but the standards for American
                                          > > "marine" plywood have been watered way down. :o( There will probably be a
                                          > > few interior voids in each sheet, and several "football" patches in the
                                          > > face plies. But the biggest problem with fir plywood is that it checks if
                                          > > you don't sheathe it with fiberglass. The checking seems worse nowadays
                                          > > than it used to be, probably because of stresses in the veneers from being
                                          > > peeled from smaller trees. <shrug> Checking doesn't seem to affect the
                                          > > life of a boat, but is unsightly, and _looks_ like it oughta be bad. But
                                          > > there are plenty of old plywood boats around that were never sheathed with
                                          > > fiberglass. <shrug> A boat built with Roseburg marine plywood will
                                          > > probably be plenty durable enough.
                                          > >
                                          > > http://www.roseburg.com/
                                          > >
                                          > > The Coots group:
                                          > >
                                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/
                                          > >
                                          > > My nephew is chef d'cuisine at The Pearl in Missoula. :o)
                                          > >
                                          > > --
                                          > > John (jkohnen@...)
                                          > > Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit
                                          > > tenant for the mind of an honest man. (Robert G. Ingersoll)
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > ------------------------------------
                                          > >
                                          > > Bolger rules!!!
                                          > > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                                          > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                                          > > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                          > > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                          > > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                          > > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
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