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Good thing that pretty horse broke my leg, saved me from the Czar's army.

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  • Mark Albanese
    In the half dozen times or so out getting acquainted with my boat, there ve been no troublesome sounds from the mast. John Kohnen warned it was fatally flawed
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 4, 2012
    In the half dozen times or so out getting acquainted with my boat,
    there've been no troublesome sounds from the mast. John Kohnen warned
    it was fatally flawed though, having tried a first repair wrapping it
    in fiberglass. I dumped must have been 4 ounces of T-88 into the
    pretty good crack that persisted.

    While moving the boat around with the 20' mast up we tapped with its
    tip the very end of no more than a 2" branch. That sent a shock right
    to the base, slicing it off more or less cleanly as shown. The long
    part hopped to the side, then fell right over.

    You can see how it's made. A birdsmouth with a lower taper wrapped
    separately around a timber that's both plug for the upper part and
    its heel. I can tell you it's a very neat job.

    I don't know what fixing this right would actually be, short of
    reduplicating it all. The best I can do in wood is clean it out, then
    use one double tapered timber to fit the sockets. Or burn this foot
    and make a new four inch one with an extension lathed off to recore
    the mast itself. But the joint of either is going to be weak still.
    I'm thinking all sorts of vague, crazy ideas like abs or steel cores
    and jackets, just to save the season.


    Guess if your going to have a boating accident, land is the place to
    have it.
    Mark
  • John Boy
    Looks like a single point failure like the way a fishing pole breaks. :(  You might be able to slap together a laminated one to finish the season, but I m
    Message 2 of 12 , Sep 4, 2012
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      Looks like a single point failure like the way a fishing pole breaks. :(  You might be able to slap together a laminated one to finish the season, but I'm thinking you're going to have to make a new one.  Looks like a butt splice isn't the way to go one a BM mast.  
      John Boy
       



      “Seaward ho! Hang the treasure! It's the glory of the sea that has turned my head.” 
      Robert Louis Stevenson, Treasure Island


      From: Mark Albanese <marka97203@...>
      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2012 4:49 AM
      Subject: [bolger] Good thing that pretty horse broke my leg, saved me from the Czar's army. [1 Attachment]

       


      In the half dozen times or so out getting acquainted with my boat,
      there've been no troublesome sounds from the mast. John Kohnen warned
      it was fatally flawed though, having tried a first repair wrapping it
      in fiberglass. I dumped must have been 4 ounces of T-88 into the
      pretty good crack that persisted.

      While moving the boat around with the 20' mast up we tapped with its
      tip the very end of no more than a 2" branch. That sent a shock right
      to the base, slicing it off more or less cleanly as shown. The long
      part hopped to the side, then fell right over.

      You can see how it's made. A birdsmouth with a lower taper wrapped
      separately around a timber that's both plug for the upper part and
      its heel. I can tell you it's a very neat job.

      I don't know what fixing this right would actually be, short of
      reduplicating it all. The best I can do in wood is clean it out, then
      use one double tapered timber to fit the sockets. Or burn this foot
      and make a new four inch one with an extension lathed off to recore
      the mast itself. But the joint of either is going to be weak still.
      I'm thinking all sorts of vague, crazy ideas like abs or steel cores
      and jackets, just to save the season.

      Guess if your going to have a boating accident, land is the place to
      have it.
      Mark


    • steve statkus
      Mark What kind of boat? What kind of mast support rigging do you have? Here s my put: cut off the broken ends square. Attempt a splice joint of something
      Message 3 of 12 , Sep 4, 2012
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        Mark

        What kind of boat?  What kind of mast support rigging do you have?  Here's my put: cut off the broken ends square.  Attempt a splice joint of something like ten to one and position that splice so that it would be under load in the fore/aft direction and supported by the forestay as opposed to across the boat centerline.  I'd suggest trying a couple of small splices to learn the technique.  Since your mast is round, go to Home Depot and pick up a few 1/2 inch dowels to practice on.  Set up a fixture in your vice and break a couple of the non-spliced dowels to get an idea of the load it takes to break.  Then make a couple of splices and break them.  Be sure to orient the splice in different positions to convenience yourself the splice is as strong as the original then go for the mast.  You might find that you'll need to add a plug on the bottom of your mast to make up the difference for the material you took out for the splice but this will not experience a large bending load and probably could be a simple butt joint.
        Critical issues: no hollow areas in the splice, wood to wood contact throughout.  Use good epoxy, T-88 is good but thin and will be a challenge to use with a splice like you're gonna attempt.
        Good luck.

        Steve Statkus

        On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 5:49 AM, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
         
        [Attachment(s) from Mark Albanese included below]



        In the half dozen times or so out getting acquainted with my boat,
        there've been no troublesome sounds from the mast. John Kohnen warned
        it was fatally flawed though, having tried a first repair wrapping it
        in fiberglass. I dumped must have been 4 ounces of T-88 into the
        pretty good crack that persisted.

        While moving the boat around with the 20' mast up we tapped with its
        tip the very end of no more than a 2" branch. That sent a shock right
        to the base, slicing it off more or less cleanly as shown. The long
        part hopped to the side, then fell right over.

        You can see how it's made. A birdsmouth with a lower taper wrapped
        separately around a timber that's both plug for the upper part and
        its heel. I can tell you it's a very neat job.

        I don't know what fixing this right would actually be, short of
        reduplicating it all. The best I can do in wood is clean it out, then
        use one double tapered timber to fit the sockets. Or burn this foot
        and make a new four inch one with an extension lathed off to recore
        the mast itself. But the joint of either is going to be weak still.
        I'm thinking all sorts of vague, crazy ideas like abs or steel cores
        and jackets, just to save the season.

        Guess if your going to have a boating accident, land is the place to
        have it.
        Mark


      • Rick
        It s been 11 or 12 years since I built that mast and at the moment I don t recall exactly how I put it together. I do know I built it as light as I dared. No
        Message 4 of 12 , Sep 4, 2012
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          It's been 11 or 12 years since I built that mast and at the moment I don't recall exactly how I put it together. I do know I built it as light as I dared. No trees around here, so I didn't put them into the design equation, lol :)

          Tell you what, bring the pieces to my place and I'll do a good repair for the cost of materials...

          Rick Bedard,
          Original owner/builder of Sage.

          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > In the half dozen times or so out getting acquainted with my boat,
          > there've been no troublesome sounds from the mast. John Kohnen warned
          > it was fatally flawed though, having tried a first repair wrapping it
          > in fiberglass. I dumped must have been 4 ounces of T-88 into the
          > pretty good crack that persisted.
          >
          > While moving the boat around with the 20' mast up we tapped with its
          > tip the very end of no more than a 2" branch. That sent a shock right
          > to the base, slicing it off more or less cleanly as shown. The long
          > part hopped to the side, then fell right over.
          >
          > You can see how it's made. A birdsmouth with a lower taper wrapped
          > separately around a timber that's both plug for the upper part and
          > its heel. I can tell you it's a very neat job.
          >
          > I don't know what fixing this right would actually be, short of
          > reduplicating it all. The best I can do in wood is clean it out, then
          > use one double tapered timber to fit the sockets. Or burn this foot
          > and make a new four inch one with an extension lathed off to recore
          > the mast itself. But the joint of either is going to be weak still.
          > I'm thinking all sorts of vague, crazy ideas like abs or steel cores
          > and jackets, just to save the season.
          >
          >
          > Guess if your going to have a boating accident, land is the place to
          > have it.
          > Mark
          >
        • Mark Albanese
          Rick, thanks for the sweet deal. I d take you up on it if only to thank you in person for the pleasure I ve had from Sage already. But a trip to California is
          Message 5 of 12 , Sep 5, 2012
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            Rick,  thanks for the sweet deal. I'd take you up on it if only to thank you in person for the pleasure I've had from Sage already. But a trip to California is out for me now. But just to be clear, if you had thought of everything, I wouldn't be in this jam.



            Inserting a new mast plug seems a tricky job, lots of chewing out the old wood and with a well fitting timber might even be splitting the tube and prying it apart some to avoid the new glue oozing to a spendy puddle.

            This mast is wonderfully light, among it's other virtues. I'm not all that husky but can put it up quite easily. Now, both pieces are still good. The remaining fiberglass wrapping is sound. The T-88 fill stuck. I'm proposing cleaning off the ends, then boring no farther in each piece than it takes for a glued in, heavy, metal collar; glue all over the rest of the joint upon assembly; more fg around that.

            I doubt this also needs either screws through the strakes into the metal or some crossing bolts through all, but am not worried about adding too much stiffness to this part of the mast.

            Mark




            On Sep 4, 2012, at 8:12 PM, Rick wrote:

             

            It's been 11 or 12 years since I built that mast and at the moment I don't recall exactly how I put it together. I do know I built it as light as I dared. No trees around here, so I didn't put them into the design equation, lol :)

            Tell you what, bring the pieces to my place and I'll do a good repair for the cost of materials...

            Rick Bedard,
            Original owner/builder of Sage.

            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
            >

          • Rick Bedard
            Hmmm, When I passed this mast on to John there was no fiberglass wrapping, just varnished doug fir. John must have had trouble? If so, I never heard about
            Message 6 of 12 , Sep 5, 2012
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              Hmmm, When I passed this mast on to John there was no fiberglass wrapping, just varnished doug fir. John must have had trouble? If so, I never heard about that.


              Just curious,

              Is it your intent to join the two pieces or attach a new bottom portion.?

              How long is the bottom section and where exactly did the mast snap in relation to the partners? Or was it at the cabin roof contact point?

              I got twin unstayed masts to build for my current build, a pilothouse catamaran motorsailer. I don't want to make the same mistake again... lol

              Rick







              --- On Wed, 9/5/12, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:

              From: Mark Albanese <marka97203@...>
              Subject: [bolger] Re: Good thing that pretty horse broke my leg, saved me from the Czar's army.
              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, September 5, 2012, 1:54 AM



              Rick,  thanks for the sweet deal. I'd take you up on it if only to thank you in person for the pleasure I've had from Sage already. But a trip to California is out for me now. But just to be clear, if you had thought of everything, I wouldn't be in this jam.



              Inserting a new mast plug seems a tricky job, lots of chewing out the old wood and with a well fitting timber might even be splitting the tube and prying it apart some to avoid the new glue oozing to a spendy puddle.

              This mast is wonderfully light, among it's other virtues. I'm not all that husky but can put it up quite easily. Now, both pieces are still good. The remaining fiberglass wrapping is sound. The T-88 fill stuck. I'm proposing cleaning off the ends, then boring no farther in each piece than it takes for a glued in, heavy, metal collar; glue all over the rest of the joint upon assembly; more fg around that.

              I doubt this also needs either screws through the strakes into the metal or some crossing bolts through all, but am not worried about adding too much stiffness to this part of the mast.

              Mark




              On Sep 4, 2012, at 8:12 PM, Rick wrote:

               

              It's been 11 or 12 years since I built that mast and at the moment I don't recall exactly how I put it together. I do know I built it as light as I dared. No trees around here, so I didn't put them into the design equation, lol :)

              Tell you what, bring the pieces to my place and I'll do a good repair for the cost of materials...

              Rick Bedard,
              Original owner/builder of Sage.

              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
              >



            • Mark Albanese
              John wrote of hearing creaking noises, then discovering a dime sized crack, which he shimmed and glassed. I found the crack between two strakes ( if you call
              Message 7 of 12 , Sep 5, 2012
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                John wrote of hearing creaking noises, then discovering a dime sized crack, which he shimmed and glassed. I found the crack between two strakes ( if you call them that in this constuction ) a quarter inch wide, expanding upwards, and filled it with T-88. The break is right where the two pieces butt, just half inch below the partners. 

                I'd prefer using the two original pieces. Doing so depends on how far the shards in the very tapered foot can be bored out to accept firmly the metal insert that will register both parts. I'm looking for a large enough hole saw today. Plan B might be four studs around the still sound perimeter, plus lots of glass around it all.

                Glad to hear you've still got the AlleyCat in the works. Stay tuned.
                Mark

                 
                On Sep 5, 2012, at 12:39 PM, Rick Bedard wrote:

                 

                Hmmm, When I passed this mast on to John there was no fiberglass wrapping, just varnished doug fir. John must have had trouble? If so, I never heard about that.


                Just curious,

                Is it your intent to join the two pieces or attach a new bottom portion.?

                How long is the bottom section and where exactly did the mast snap in relation to the partners? Or was it at the cabin roof contact point?

                I got twin unstayed masts to build for my current build, a pilothouse catamaran motorsailer. I don't want to make the same mistake again... lol

                Rick







                --- On Wed, 9/5/12, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:

                From: Mark Albanese <marka97203@...>
                Subject: [bolger] Re: Good thing that pretty horse broke my leg, saved me from the Czar's army.
                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, September 5, 2012, 1:54 AM



                Rick,  thanks for the sweet deal. I'd take you up on it if only to thank you in person for the pleasure I've had from Sage already. But a trip to California is out for me now. But just to be clear, if you had thought of everything, I wouldn't be in this jam.



                Inserting a new mast plug seems a tricky job, lots of chewing out the old wood and with a well fitting timber might even be splitting the tube and prying it apart some to avoid the new glue oozing to a spendy puddle.

                This mast is wonderfully light, among it's other virtues. I'm not all that husky but can put it up quite easily. Now, both pieces are still good. The remaining fiberglass wrapping is sound. The T-88 fill stuck. I'm proposing cleaning off the ends, then boring no farther in each piece than it takes for a glued in, heavy, metal collar; glue all over the rest of the joint upon assembly; more fg around that.

                I doubt this also needs either screws through the strakes into the metal or some crossing bolts through all, but am not worried about adding too much stiffness to this part of the mast.

                Mark




                On Sep 4, 2012, at 8:12 PM, Rick wrote:

                 

                It's been 11 or 12 years since I built that mast and at the moment I don't recall exactly how I put it together. I do know I built it as light as I dared. No trees around here, so I didn't put them into the design equation, lol :)

                Tell you what, bring the pieces to my place and I'll do a good repair for the cost of materials...

                Rick Bedard,
                Original owner/builder of Sage.

                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
                >




              • Mark Albanese
                The idea of using a short piece of pipe let in to the pieces may not work. A two inch diameter fitting will only insert 2 into the foot before the tapered
                Message 8 of 12 , Sep 6, 2012
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                  The idea of using a short piece of pipe let in to the pieces may not
                  work. A two inch diameter fitting will only insert 2" into the foot
                  before the tapered wall gets too thin, perhaps not enough.

                  Now I'm considering about two feet of 3/8 or 1/2 inch all thread.
                  I've cleaned up the splinters. The foot of the mast is actually quite
                  solid. The shards are all inside the upper mast. I could pour in
                  epoxy to bind them together, then drill for the rod.

                  Question is, can the all thread just be screwed into the hole, or
                  does it have to be tapped first to avoid shattering the surrounding
                  epoxy?
                • Rick Bedard
                  Just some thoughts on a quick repair, Could you insert a long enough pipe into the mast section and toss the lower section away? Or scarf the two original
                  Message 9 of 12 , Sep 6, 2012
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                    Just some thoughts on a quick repair,

                    Could you insert a long enough pipe into the mast section and toss the lower section away?

                    Or scarf the two original pieces together as best you can, then router out a series of grooves deep as you can, overlapping the splice and inlay hardwood strips, staggering their lengths to avoid hardspots?

                    Keep us posted on what you do choose to do.
                     
                    Rick


                    --- On Thu, 9/6/12, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:

                    From: Mark Albanese <marka97203@...>
                    Subject: [bolger] Re: Good thing that pretty horse broke my leg, saved me from the Czar's army.
                    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, September 6, 2012, 1:14 PM

                    The idea of using a short piece of pipe let in to the pieces may not 
                    work. A two inch diameter fitting will only insert 2" into the foot 
                    before the tapered wall gets too thin, perhaps not enough.

                    Now I'm considering about two feet of 3/8 or 1/2 inch all thread. 
                    I've cleaned up the splinters. The foot of the mast is actually quite 
                    solid. The shards are all inside the upper mast. I could pour in 
                    epoxy to bind them together, then drill for the rod.

                    Question is, can the all thread just be screwed into the hole, or 
                    does it have to be tapped first to avoid shattering the surrounding 
                    epoxy?





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                  • Mark Albanese
                    Yes, the upper section is a constant 3 for at least a foot and would work with a new heel. But it turns out easier finding a foot long drill bit than even a
                    Message 10 of 12 , Sep 6, 2012
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                      Yes, the upper section is a constant 3" for at least a foot and would work with a new heel. But it turns out easier finding a foot long drill bit than even a four inch holesaw. And I'm thinking 12 or 18 inches is better to spread the load. Using all-thread, the old piece is suitable.

                      Today I filled the broken plug with T-88, which is thin enough to sink down to the bottom of the 3" shards, non shrinking and very strong.  A second, thickened plop was all it took to finish. The allthread can go as much as a foot on either side of the join, though I'm thinking 6 - 9" each way might be enough as long as it goes well past the top section's epoxy plug, since we're really relying on a biaxial tape wrapping for the outside.

                      Guess I'll thread it all the way through. Won't be able to glue the rod, have to rely on the threads for some grip.
                      Mark

                       
                      On Sep 6, 2012, at 5:30 PM, Rick Bedard wrote:

                       

                      Just some thoughts on a quick repair,

                      Could you insert a long enough pipe into the mast section and toss the lower section away?

                      Or scarf the two original pieces together as best you can, then router out a series of grooves deep as you can, overlapping the splice and inlay hardwood strips, staggering their lengths to avoid hardspots?

                      Keep us posted on what you do choose to do.
                       
                      Rick


                      --- On Thu, 9/6/12, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:

                      From: Mark Albanese <marka97203@...>
                      Subject: [bolger] Re: Good thing that pretty horse broke my leg, saved me from the Czar's army.
                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Thursday, September 6, 2012, 1:14 PM

                      The idea of using a short piece of pipe let in to the pieces may not 
                      work. A two inch diameter fitting will only insert 2" into the foot 
                      before the tapered wall gets too thin, perhaps not enough.

                      Now I'm considering about two feet of 3/8 or 1/2 inch all thread. 
                      I've cleaned up the splinters. The foot of the mast is actually quite 
                      solid. The shards are all inside the upper mast. I could pour in 
                      epoxy to bind them together, then drill for the rod.

                      Question is, can the all thread just be screwed into the hole, or 
                      does it have to be tapped first to avoid shattering the surrounding 
                      epoxy?





                      ------------------------------------

                      Bolger rules!!!
                      - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!!  Please!
                      - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                      - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                      - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                      - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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                    • John
                      Sorry I m late with this. Mark s catastrophe happened while I was up at the Port Townsend festival and had most of the groups I subscribe to turned off. When
                      Message 11 of 12 , Sep 28, 2012
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                        Sorry I'm late with this. Mark's catastrophe happened while I was up at the Port Townsend festival and had most of the groups I subscribe to turned off.

                        When you built the mast, Rick, the birdsmouth portion ended abruptly just below the partners. You stuck a solid hexagonal piece up the a** of the birdsmouth portion to make up the length needed to reach the mast step. The joint between the two was abrupt, creating a bad stress concentration. When I picked Sage up from you, you said the mast creaked, but wouldn't fail.

                        One day I was out on the local Mudhole on a windy day with a friend. He commented about the noise the mast was making, but I said that the builder told me it would creak, but was strong enough. he felt around the mast near the joint between the two parts and said, "there's a crack here you could stick a nickel into!" <g> I went home and made eight wedge-shaped bits that I glued to the solid stick below the main part of the mast, then wrapped everything with fiberglass cloth to try to spread the load beyond the original, abrupt joint.

                        When Make brought Sage to the Mudhole a few months ago I noticed that the fiberglass was pulling away from my repair. I thought that was probably because I hadn't sufficiently sanded away the varnish. <shrug> It sounds like Mark tried to repair that.

                        I had many happy times in Sage, and I'm not criticizing your building of her, Rick. We all try things out that turn out not to work, and your method of stretching Sage's mast was such a case.

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Rick B wrote:
                        >
                        > Hmmm, When I passed this mast on to John there was no fiberglass wrapping, just varnished doug fir. John must have had trouble? If so, I never heard about that.
                        > ...
                      • John Kohnen
                        Dime? Nickel? I guess the tale is growing with the telling. ;o) Most of the stress on a mast is handled by the material near the _outside_ of the mast.
                        Message 12 of 12 , Sep 28, 2012
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                          "Dime?" "Nickel?" I guess the tale is growing with the telling. ;o)

                          Most of the stress on a mast is handled by the material near the _outside_
                          of the mast. Your all-thread solution is a good one for holding the two
                          parts of Sage's mast together and in line, Mark, but put plenty of 'glass
                          on the outside of the mast to carry the load. And make sure you've sanded
                          all the varnish away before you do it. <g>

                          On Fri, 28 Sep 2012 22:47:35 -0700, I wrote:

                          > ...
                          > One day I was out on the local Mudhole on a windy day with a friend. He
                          > commented about the noise the mast was making, but I said that the
                          > builder told me it would creak, but was strong enough. he felt around
                          > the mast near the joint between the two parts and said, "there's a crack
                          > here you could stick a nickel into!" <g>...

                          --
                          John (jkohnen@...)
                          Why should we take advice on sex from the Pope? If he knows
                          anything about it, he shouldn't. (G. B. Shaw)
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