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85% complete Navigator, w/trlr, $300 Arkansas

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  • bruce_mccaskey
    http://littlerock.craigslist.org/boa/3130613158.html not mine, I just saw it on the intertubes.
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 18, 2012
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      http://littlerock.craigslist.org/boa/3130613158.html

      not mine, I just saw it on the intertubes.
    • Robb
      wow.....I don t really trust micro s but if I were closer I d buy one for that money.......doesn t look too bad........Robb
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 18, 2012
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        wow.....I don't really trust micro's but if I were closer I'd buy one
        for that money.......doesn't look too bad........Robb



        On 7/18/2012 3:33 PM, bruce_mccaskey wrote:
        > http://littlerock.craigslist.org/boa/3130613158.html
        >
        > not mine, I just saw it on the intertubes.
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Bolger rules!!!
        > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
        > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
        > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
        > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
        > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
        > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Adirondack Goodboat
        Don t trust Micros? I d say, if built well and to plans, they are the most trustable boat I know. Guaranteed not to get hysterical. I have one as nearly
        Message 3 of 17 , Jul 18, 2012
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          Don’t “trust” Micros? I’d say, if built well and to plans, they are the most trustable boat I know. Guaranteed not to get hysterical. I have one as nearly complete that might be a better deal. Micro, not Navigator. And a completed one, both for sale. Trust them!---Mason

           

          From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robb
          Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 3:45 PM
          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [bolger] 85% complete Navigator, w/trlr, $300 Arkansas

           

           

          wow.....I don't really trust micro's but if I were closer I'd buy one
          for that money.......doesn't look too bad........Robb

          On 7/18/2012 3:33 PM, bruce_mccaskey wrote:
          > http://littlerock.craigslist.org/boa/3130613158.html
          >
          > not mine, I just saw it on the intertubes.
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Bolger rules!!!
          > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
          > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
          > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
          > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
          > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
          > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >

        • Robb
          Well I ve never had one.....and I don t know if true or not....but a few years ago there was a story of a couple of them that went down in water that at the
          Message 4 of 17 , Jul 18, 2012
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            Well I've never had one.....and I don't know if true or not....but a few years ago there was a story of a couple of them that went down in water that at the time didn't sound all that bad.  Supposedly, the ballast weight causes them to swamp in certain conditions.  Like I said , don't know if true or not.  Martha Janes also had a problem and that wasn't just a story.......Robb


            On 7/18/2012 7:50 PM, Adirondack Goodboat wrote:

            Don’t “trust” Micros? I’d say, if built well and to plans, they are the most trustable boat I know. Guaranteed not to get hysterical. I have one as nearly complete that might be a better deal. Micro, not Navigator. And a completed one, both for sale. Trust them!---Mason

             

            From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robb
            Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 3:45 PM
            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [bolger] 85% complete Navigator, w/trlr, $300 Arkansas

             

             

            wow.....I don't really trust micro's but if I were closer I'd buy one
            for that money.......doesn't look too bad........Robb

            On 7/18/2012 3:33 PM, bruce_mccaskey wrote:
            > http://littlerock.craigslist.org/boa/3130613158.html
            >
            > not mine, I just saw it on the intertubes.
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Bolger rules!!!
            > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
            > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
            > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
            > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
            > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
            > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >



          • Scot McPherson
            Well a perfect storm can swamp anything. There was a YouTube video of someone trying to test sink their micro, and they couldn t. They heeled it over clinging
            Message 5 of 17 , Jul 18, 2012
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              Well a perfect storm can swamp anything. There was a YouTube video of someone trying to test sink their micro, and they couldn't. They heeled it over clinging to the mast and the dude couldn't hold on the the mast to keep the boat on it's side long enough to do anything.

              Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
              Old Lyme, CT
              Le Claire, IA
              Sent from my iPhone

              On Jul 18, 2012, at 9:35 PM, Robb <robb@...> wrote:

               

              Well I've never had one.....and I don't know if true or not....but a few years ago there was a story of a couple of them that went down in water that at the time didn't sound all that bad.  Supposedly, the ballast weight causes them to swamp in certain conditions.  Like I said , don't know if true or not.  Martha Janes also had a problem and that wasn't just a story.......Robb


              On 7/18/2012 7:50 PM, Adirondack Goodboat wrote:

              Don’t “trust” Micros? I’d say, if built well and to plans, they are the most trustable boat I know. Guaranteed not to get hysterical. I have one as nearly complete that might be a better deal. Micro, not Navigator. And a completed one, both for sale. Trust them!---Mason

               

              From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robb
              Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 3:45 PM
              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [bolger] 85% complete Navigator, w/trlr, $300 Arkansas

               

               

              wow.....I don't really trust micro's but if I were closer I'd buy one
              for that money.......doesn't look too bad........Robb

              On 7/18/2012 3:33 PM, bruce_mccaskey wrote:
              > http://littlerock.craigslist.org/boa/3130613158.html
              >
              > not mine, I just saw it on the intertubes.
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Bolger rules!!!
              > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
              > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
              > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
              > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
              > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
              > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >



            • Mark Albanese
              I m always amused by Phil s story The Lovers, where the couple take a Mediterranean bath afloat by half filling their Micro. Hardly fazed the pounds per inch
              Message 6 of 17 , Jul 18, 2012
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                I'm always amused by Phil's story The Lovers, where the couple take a Mediterranean bath afloat by half filling their Micro. Hardly fazed the pounds per inch immersion.




              • c.ruzer
                ... NOT TRUE ... WAS MOSTLY STORY - SUPER EXAGGERATED by blathering merchants of doubt on the interwebby. Actually was mostly skipper at fault not the design.
                Message 7 of 17 , Jul 18, 2012
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                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Robb <robb@...> wrote:

                  > Well I've never had one.....and I don't know if true or not....but
                  > a few years ago there was a story of a couple of them that went
                  > down in water that at the time didn't sound all that bad. Supposedly, the ballast weight causes them to swamp in certain
                  > conditions.

                  > Like I said , don't know if true or not.


                  NOT TRUE


                  > Martha Janes also had a problem and that wasn't
                  > just a story.......Robb


                  WAS MOSTLY STORY - SUPER EXAGGERATED by blathering merchants of doubt on the interwebby. Actually was mostly skipper at fault not the design. You can read a lot of that, and a lot about that in these archives. Upgraded afterward to make idiot proof - well, mostly...


                  "If you can't convince them, confuse them." Harry S. Truman
                • Adirondack Goodboat
                  I would not be surprised if Micros have been built and sailed without their proper flotation. It is so hard to imagine them put on their sides, in conditions
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jul 19, 2012
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                    I would not be surprised if Micros have been built and sailed without their proper flotation. It is so hard to imagine them put on their sides, in conditions anyone would expect to sail them in, and at that point they would have great righting moment. If companionway or hatch were open, though, they would fill, and it’s sure true that the lead and engine weight are enough to take them down. Phil told me that he would like to see more flotation than he first specified, some of it higher up, as well as thicker bottoms. I made sure to install the two cubes of foam in the aft corners of the under-cockpit space, and fill the forward well under the flooring, and if I were going out on the ocean I would do more.

                     

                    From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robb
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 10:35 PM
                    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [bolger] 85% complete Navigator, w/trlr, $300 Arkansas

                     

                     

                    Well I've never had one.....and I don't know if true or not....but a few years ago there was a story of a couple of them that went down in water that at the time didn't sound all that bad.  Supposedly, the ballast weight causes them to swamp in certain conditions.  Like I said , don't know if true or not.  Martha Janes also had a problem and that wasn't just a story.......Robb

                    On 7/18/2012 7:50 PM, Adirondack Goodboat wrote:

                    Don’t “trust” Micros? I’d say, if built well and to plans, they are the most trustable boat I know. Guaranteed not to get hysterical. I have one as nearly complete that might be a better deal. Micro, not Navigator. And a completed one, both for sale. Trust them!---Mason

                     

                    From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robb
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 3:45 PM
                    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [bolger] 85% complete Navigator, w/trlr, $300 Arkansas

                     

                     

                    wow.....I don't really trust micro's but if I were closer I'd buy one
                    for that money.......doesn't look too bad........Robb

                    On 7/18/2012 3:33 PM, bruce_mccaskey wrote:
                    > http://littlerock.craigslist.org/boa/3130613158.html
                    >
                    > not mine, I just saw it on the intertubes.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Bolger rules!!!
                    > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                    > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                    > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                    > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                    > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                    > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >

                     

                  • Adirondack Goodboat
                    I love that story too. Phil had a twinkle in his eye. Read Schorpioen. From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Albanese
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jul 19, 2012
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                      I love that story too. Phil had a twinkle in his eye. Read Schorpioen.

                       

                      From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Albanese
                      Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 1:13 AM
                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [bolger] Re: 85% complete Navigator, w/trlr, $300 Arkansas

                       

                       

                      I'm always amused by Phil's story The Lovers, where the couple take a Mediterranean bath afloat by half filling their Micro. Hardly fazed the pounds per inch immersion.

                       

                       

                       

                       

                    • Robb
                      Then perhaps it was true.......the story was very detailed.....Robb
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jul 19, 2012
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                        Then perhaps it was true.......the story was very detailed.....Robb




                        On 7/19/2012 8:08 AM, Adirondack Goodboat wrote:

                        I would not be surprised if Micros have been built and sailed without their proper flotation. It is so hard to imagine them put on their sides, in conditions anyone would expect to sail them in, and at that point they would have great righting moment. If companionway or hatch were open, though, they would fill, and it’s sure true that the lead and engine weight are enough to take them down. Phil told me that he would like to see more flotation than he first specified, some of it higher up, as well as thicker bottoms. I made sure to install the two cubes of foam in the aft corners of the under-cockpit space, and fill the forward well under the flooring, and if I were going out on the ocean I would do more.

                         

                        From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robb
                        Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 10:35 PM
                        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [bolger] 85% complete Navigator, w/trlr, $300 Arkansas

                         

                         

                        Well I've never had one.....and I don't know if true or not....but a few years ago there was a story of a couple of them that went down in water that at the time didn't sound all that bad.  Supposedly, the ballast weight causes them to swamp in certain conditions.  Like I said , don't know if true or not.  Martha Janes also had a problem and that wasn't just a story.......Robb

                        On 7/18/2012 7:50 PM, Adirondack Goodboat wrote:

                        Don’t “trust” Micros? I’d say, if built well and to plans, they are the most trustable boat I know. Guaranteed not to get hysterical. I have one as nearly complete that might be a better deal. Micro, not Navigator. And a completed one, both for sale. Trust them!---Mason

                         

                        From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robb
                        Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 3:45 PM
                        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [bolger] 85% complete Navigator, w/trlr, $300 Arkansas

                         

                         

                        wow.....I don't really trust micro's but if I were closer I'd buy one
                        for that money.......doesn't look too bad........Robb

                        On 7/18/2012 3:33 PM, bruce_mccaskey wrote:
                        > http://littlerock.craigslist.org/boa/3130613158.html
                        >
                        > not mine, I just saw it on the intertubes.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Bolger rules!!!
                        > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                        > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                        > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                        > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                        > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                        > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >

                         


                      • BruceHallman
                        On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 5:08 AM, Adirondack Goodboat ... Owning a Micro Navigator, I am not sure I agree with the above. It is possible to have too much sail
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jul 19, 2012
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                          On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 5:08 AM, Adirondack Goodboat
                          <goodboat@...> wrote:
                          > It is so hard to imagine them put on their sides, in
                          > conditions anyone would expect to sail them in, and at that point they would
                          > have great righting moment. If companionway or hatch were open, though, they
                          > would fill,

                          Owning a Micro Navigator, I am not sure I agree with the above.

                          It is possible to have too much sail up and get hit by a strong gust.
                          (I have done that!) What happens is that the geometry of the Cat Yawl
                          rig puts a tremendous force that spins the hull head up into the wind.
                          There is also some force that makes the boat heel over, and this
                          serves to release the hold of the rudder on the water, which simply
                          accelerates the heading up process.

                          I cannot imagine the hatches (located on centerline) ever reaching
                          water to flood.

                          The case where I think the positive flotation would come into play
                          would be if you hit something submerged and poke a hole in the hull.

                          The Micro Navigator seaworthiness gets weak in really strong winds
                          simply because her natural tendency is to heave-to. So, if you were
                          beating off of lee shore you might not make the headway you need.
                          (That said, she draws only 14" of water, so you would run aground and
                          walk away upon that hard chance.)

                          For best comparison look to the Bolger steel design Col. HG Hassler.
                          Paraphrasing from the PB&F writeup, she can withstand anything, up to
                          and including being run over and dragged full length under a super
                          tanker. The MicroNav, being wood, might break up, but has the same
                          buoyancy curves as the HG Hassler.
                        • Adirondack Goodboat
                          That s a valuable contribution from Bruce, as always. In suggesting that the Micro could be put on her side, I was thinking that this can happen to her more by
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jul 19, 2012
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                            That’s a valuable contribution from Bruce, as always. In suggesting that the Micro could be put on her side, I was thinking that this can happen to her more by very severe ocean wave action tossing her sideways, her keel and chine digging in and tripping her, than by wind force as such.

                             

                            According to some wonderfully enlightening stuff in The Sailmaker’s Apprentice (whose author gives Phil Bolger a run for the money in explaining the qualities of different rigs), the main reason boats round up in gusts (and not just yawls) is that when they heel, the sails’ center of effort is so far outboard of the lateral resistance. Standard Micros take a lot to make them heel very much. Bruce has the Navigator, with the Chinese gaff, I believe, and can have way more sail up than I can with the plain Micro.

                             

                            He’s probably right too about holing being a greater danger than swamping. I am of the tentative opinion that fiberglass would be of more use on the inside of the bottom than the outside. Its strength in tension would do far more to prevent puncture there, I think.

                             

                            But not both inside and outside, as was done to George Anger’s Whalewatcher and ruined it utterly.

                             

                             

                            From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of BruceHallman
                            Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 10:34 AM
                            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [bolger] 85% complete Navigator, w/trlr, $300 Arkansas

                             

                             

                            On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 5:08 AM, Adirondack Goodboat
                            <goodboat@...> wrote:

                            > It is so hard to imagine them put on their sides, in
                            > conditions anyone would expect to sail them in, and at that point they would
                            > have great righting moment. If companionway or hatch were open, though, they
                            > would fill,

                            Owning a Micro Navigator, I am not sure I agree with the above.

                            It is possible to have too much sail up and get hit by a strong gust.
                            (I have done that!) What happens is that the geometry of the Cat Yawl
                            rig puts a tremendous force that spins the hull head up into the wind.
                            There is also some force that makes the boat heel over, and this
                            serves to release the hold of the rudder on the water, which simply
                            accelerates the heading up process.

                            I cannot imagine the hatches (located on centerline) ever reaching
                            water to flood.

                            The case where I think the positive flotation would come into play
                            would be if you hit something submerged and poke a hole in the hull.

                            The Micro Navigator seaworthiness gets weak in really strong winds
                            simply because her natural tendency is to heave-to. So, if you were
                            beating off of lee shore you might not make the headway you need.
                            (That said, she draws only 14" of water, so you would run aground and
                            walk away upon that hard chance.)

                            For best comparison look to the Bolger steel design Col. HG Hassler.
                            Paraphrasing from the PB&F writeup, she can withstand anything, up to
                            and including being run over and dragged full length under a super
                            tanker. The MicroNav, being wood, might break up, but has the same
                            buoyancy curves as the HG Hassler.

                          • Robb
                            As I understood the story.....the boats weren t being put on their side.....waves were splashing water in and the boat just went under. Robb
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jul 19, 2012
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                              As I understood the story.....the boats weren't being put on their side.....waves were splashing water in and the boat just went under.  Robb



                              On 7/19/2012 11:01 AM, Adirondack Goodboat wrote:

                              That’s a valuable contribution from Bruce, as always. In suggesting that the Micro could be put on her side, I was thinking that this can happen to her more by very severe ocean wave action tossing her sideways, her keel and chine digging in and tripping her, than by wind force as such.

                               

                              According to some wonderfully enlightening stuff in The Sailmaker’s Apprentice (whose author gives Phil Bolger a run for the money in explaining the qualities of different rigs), the main reason boats round up in gusts (and not just yawls) is that when they heel, the sails’ center of effort is so far outboard of the lateral resistance. Standard Micros take a lot to make them heel very much. Bruce has the Navigator, with the Chinese gaff, I believe, and can have way more sail up than I can with the plain Micro.

                               

                              He’s probably right too about holing being a greater danger than swamping. I am of the tentative opinion that fiberglass would be of more use on the inside of the bottom than the outside. Its strength in tension would do far more to prevent puncture there, I think.

                               

                              But not both inside and outside, as was done to George Anger’s Whalewatcher and ruined it utterly.

                               

                               

                              From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of BruceHallman
                              Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 10:34 AM
                              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [bolger] 85% complete Navigator, w/trlr, $300 Arkansas

                               

                               

                              On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 5:08 AM, Adirondack Goodboat
                              <goodboat@...> wrote:
                              > It is so hard to imagine them put on their sides, in
                              > conditions anyone would expect to sail them in, and at that point they would
                              > have great righting moment. If companionway or hatch were open, though, they
                              > would fill,

                              Owning a Micro Navigator, I am not sure I agree with the above.

                              It is possible to have too much sail up and get hit by a strong gust.
                              (I have done that!) What happens is that the geometry of the Cat Yawl
                              rig puts a tremendous force that spins the hull head up into the wind.
                              There is also some force that makes the boat heel over, and this
                              serves to release the hold of the rudder on the water, which simply
                              accelerates the heading up process.

                              I cannot imagine the hatches (located on centerline) ever reaching
                              water to flood.

                              The case where I think the positive flotation would come into play
                              would be if you hit something submerged and poke a hole in the hull.

                              The Micro Navigator seaworthiness gets weak in really strong winds
                              simply because her natural tendency is to heave-to. So, if you were
                              beating off of lee shore you might not make the headway you need.
                              (That said, she draws only 14" of water, so you would run aground and
                              walk away upon that hard chance.)

                              For best comparison look to the Bolger steel design Col. HG Hassler.
                              Paraphrasing from the PB&F writeup, she can withstand anything, up to
                              and including being run over and dragged full length under a super
                              tanker. The MicroNav, being wood, might break up, but has the same
                              buoyancy curves as the HG Hassler.


                            • MylesJ. Swift
                              I got knocked down once in Micro and popped right back up. The water did not get anywhere near the centerline. In fact it didn t ship enough water to be
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jul 19, 2012
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                                I got knocked down once in Micro and popped right back up. The water did not get anywhere near the centerline. In fact it didn’t ship enough water to be noticeable.  When you are over that far you have the ballast a couple feet out of the water. You would have to be out in conditions that could roll the boat to have a problem. With specified floatation Micro will still float when swamped.

                                 

                                MylesJ

                              • Harry James
                                Keel mono hulls that don t have floatation sink when water comes in. The idea is to keep the water from coming in. Micro is just as vulnerable to this as any
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jul 19, 2012
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                                  Keel mono hulls that don't have floatation sink when water comes in. The idea is to keep the water from coming in. Micro is just as vulnerable to this as any other boat. The J 24 is a large one design small racing keel mono hull. Google "J 24 sinking", lots of them have sunk.

                                  HJ

                                  On 7/19/2012 7:10 AM, Robb wrote:
                                  As I understood the story.....the boats weren't being put on their side.....waves were splashing water in and the boat just went under.  Robb



                                  On 7/19/2012 11:01 AM, Adirondack Goodboat wrote:

                                  That’sa valuable contribution from Bruce, as always. In suggesting that the Micro could be put on her side, I was thinking that this can happen to her more by very severe ocean wave action tossing her sideways, her keel and chine digging in and tripping her, than by wind force as such.

                                   

                                  Accordingto some wonderfully enlightening stuff in The Sailmaker’s Apprentice (whose author gives Phil Bolger a run for the money in explaining the qualities of different rigs), the main reason boats round up in gusts (and not just yawls) is that when they heel, the sails’ center of effort is so far outboard of the lateral resistance. Standard Micros take a lot to make them heel very much. Bruce has the Navigator, with the Chinese gaff, I believe, and can have way more sail up than I can with the plain Micro.

                                   

                                  He’sprobably right too about holing being a greater danger than swamping. I am of the tentative opinion that fiberglass would be of more use on the inside of the bottom than the outside. Its strength in tension would do far more to prevent puncture there, I think.

                                   

                                  Butnot both inside and outside, as was done to George Anger’s Whalewatcher and ruined it utterly.

                                   

                                   

                                  From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of BruceHallman
                                  Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 10:34 AM
                                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [bolger] 85% complete Navigator, w/trlr, $300 Arkansas

                                   

                                   

                                  On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 5:08 AM, Adirondack Goodboat
                                  <goodboat@...>wrote:
                                  > It is so hard to imagine them put on their sides, in
                                  > conditions anyone would expect to sail them in, and at that point they would
                                  > have great righting moment. If companionway or hatch were open, though, they
                                  > would fill,

                                  Owning a Micro Navigator, I am not sure I agree with the above.

                                  It is possible to have too much sail up and get hit by a strong gust.
                                  (I have done that!) What happens is that the geometry of the Cat Yawl
                                  rig puts a tremendous force that spins the hull head up into the wind.
                                  There is also some force that makes the boat heel over, and this
                                  serves to release the hold of the rudder on the water, which simply
                                  accelerates the heading up process.

                                  I cannot imagine the hatches (located on centerline) ever reaching
                                  water to flood.

                                  The case where I think the positive flotation would come into play
                                  would be if you hit something submerged and poke a hole in the hull.

                                  The Micro Navigator seaworthiness gets weak in really strong winds
                                  simply because her natural tendency is to heave-to. So, if you were
                                  beating off of lee shore you might not make the headway you need.
                                  (That said, she draws only 14" of water, so you would run aground and
                                  walk away upon that hard chance.)

                                  For best comparison look to the Bolger steel design Col. HG Hassler.
                                  Paraphrasing from the PB&F writeup, she can withstand anything, up to
                                  and including being run over and dragged full length under a super
                                  tanker. The MicroNav, being wood, might break up, but has the same
                                  buoyancy curves as the HG Hassler.


                                • Brian
                                  I have a classic Micro, which will FINALLY be back in the water shortly. It has the standard flotation (I think: aft quarters of the cargo hold and fwd under
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jul 20, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I have a classic Micro, which will FINALLY be back in the water shortly. It has the standard flotation (I think: aft quarters of the cargo hold and fwd under the anchor well), and has the double thickness bottom of 1/2". I think it could use a little more when going into rough conditions, but there will usually be various plastic boxes that, when secured, will add some flotation, unless ridiculously packed.

                                    In bad conditions, I'd probably worry first about the two ventilators, which have no closures at the moment. I doubt it will be a problem for the gentle sailing I intend to do this season.

                                    A Micro may not be an ocean-crosser, but I think it's a brilliant design for reasonable coastal and such.

                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Keel mono hulls that don't have floatation sink when water comes in. The
                                    > idea is to keep the water from coming in. Micro is just as vulnerable to
                                    > this as any other boat. The J 24 is a large one design small racing keel
                                    > mono hull. Google "J 24 sinking", lots of them have sunk.
                                    >
                                    > HJ
                                    >
                                    > On 7/19/2012 7:10 AM, Robb wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > As I understood the story.....the boats weren't being put on their
                                    > > side.....waves were splashing water in and the boat just went under. Robb
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > On 7/19/2012 11:01 AM, Adirondack Goodboat wrote:
                                    > >>
                                    > >> That's a valuable contribution from Bruce, as always. In suggesting
                                    > >> that the Micro could be put on her side, I was thinking that this can
                                    > >> happen to her more by very severe ocean wave action tossing her
                                    > >> sideways, her keel and chine digging in and tripping her, than by
                                    > >> wind force as such.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> According to some wonderfully enlightening stuff in The Sailmaker's
                                    > >> Apprentice (whose author gives Phil Bolger a run for the money in
                                    > >> explaining the qualities of different rigs), the main reason boats
                                    > >> round up in gusts (and not just yawls) is that when they heel, the
                                    > >> sails' center of effort is so far outboard of the lateral resistance.
                                    > >> Standard Micros take a lot to make them heel very much. Bruce has the
                                    > >> Navigator, with the Chinese gaff, I believe, and can have way more
                                    > >> sail up than I can with the plain Micro.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> He's probably right too about holing being a greater danger than
                                    > >> swamping. I am of the tentative opinion that fiberglass would be of
                                    > >> more use on the inside of the bottom than the outside. Its strength
                                    > >> in tension would do far more to prevent puncture there, I think.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> But not both inside and outside, as was done to George Anger's
                                    > >> Whalewatcher and ruined it utterly.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> *From:*bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] *On
                                    > >> Behalf Of *BruceHallman
                                    > >> *Sent:* Thursday, July 19, 2012 10:34 AM
                                    > >> *To:* bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                    > >> *Subject:* Re: [bolger] 85% complete Navigator, w/trlr, $300 Arkansas
                                    > >>
                                    > >> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 5:08 AM, Adirondack Goodboat
                                    > >> <goodboat@... <mailto:goodboat%40frontiernet.net>> wrote:
                                    > >> > It is so hard to imagine them put on their sides, in
                                    > >> > conditions anyone would expect to sail them in, and at that point
                                    > >> they would
                                    > >> > have great righting moment. If companionway or hatch were open,
                                    > >> though, they
                                    > >> > would fill,
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Owning a Micro Navigator, I am not sure I agree with the above.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> It is possible to have too much sail up and get hit by a strong gust.
                                    > >> (I have done that!) What happens is that the geometry of the Cat Yawl
                                    > >> rig puts a tremendous force that spins the hull head up into the wind.
                                    > >> There is also some force that makes the boat heel over, and this
                                    > >> serves to release the hold of the rudder on the water, which simply
                                    > >> accelerates the heading up process.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> I cannot imagine the hatches (located on centerline) ever reaching
                                    > >> water to flood.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> The case where I think the positive flotation would come into play
                                    > >> would be if you hit something submerged and poke a hole in the hull.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> The Micro Navigator seaworthiness gets weak in really strong winds
                                    > >> simply because her natural tendency is to heave-to. So, if you were
                                    > >> beating off of lee shore you might not make the headway you need.
                                    > >> (That said, she draws only 14" of water, so you would run aground and
                                    > >> walk away upon that hard chance.)
                                    > >>
                                    > >> For best comparison look to the Bolger steel design Col. HG Hassler.
                                    > >> Paraphrasing from the PB&F writeup, she can withstand anything, up to
                                    > >> and including being run over and dragged full length under a super
                                    > >> tanker. The MicroNav, being wood, might break up, but has the same
                                    > >> buoyancy curves as the HG Hassler.
                                    > >>
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Adirondack Goodboat
                                    When I first had my Micro, it did not have the baffles at fore and aft ventilation openings. I took a group of family for a ride on the lake under outboard
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jul 20, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment

                                      When I first had my Micro, it did not have the baffles at fore and aft ventilation openings. I took a group of family for a ride on the lake under outboard power, and when we cruised into some wakes, I happened to see solid water coming through the forward vent, a brief waterfall. The little boat with so much rocker is liable to trim down by the bow if you have some people forward. That was a warning to me, and I quickly built the baffles, to plan. ---Mason

                                       

                                      From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian
                                      Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 5:39 AM
                                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [bolger] Re: 85% complete Navigator, w/trlr, $300 Arkansas

                                       

                                       

                                      I have a classic Micro, which will FINALLY be back in the water shortly. It has the standard flotation (I think: aft quarters of the cargo hold and fwd under the anchor well), and has the double thickness bottom of 1/2". I think it could use a little more when going into rough conditions, but there will usually be various plastic boxes that, when secured, will add some flotation, unless ridiculously packed.

                                      In bad conditions, I'd probably worry first about the two ventilators, which have no closures at the moment. I doubt it will be a problem for the gentle sailing I intend to do this season.

                                      A Micro may not be an ocean-crosser, but I think it's a brilliant design for reasonable coastal and such.

                                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Keel mono hulls that don't have floatation sink when water comes in. The
                                      > idea is to keep the water from coming in. Micro is just as vulnerable to
                                      > this as any other boat. The J 24 is a large one design small racing keel
                                      > mono hull. Google "J 24 sinking", lots of them have sunk.
                                      >
                                      > HJ
                                      >
                                      > On 7/19/2012 7:10 AM, Robb wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > As I understood the story.....the boats weren't being put on their
                                      > > side.....waves were splashing water in and the boat just went under. Robb
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > On 7/19/2012 11:01 AM, Adirondack Goodboat wrote:
                                      > >>
                                      > >> That's a valuable contribution from Bruce, as always. In suggesting
                                      > >> that the Micro could be put on her side, I was thinking that this can
                                      > >> happen to her more by very severe ocean wave action tossing her
                                      > >> sideways, her keel and chine digging in and tripping her, than by
                                      > >> wind force as such.
                                      > >>
                                      > >> According to some wonderfully enlightening stuff in The Sailmaker's
                                      > >> Apprentice (whose author gives Phil Bolger a run for the money in
                                      > >> explaining the qualities of different rigs), the main reason boats
                                      > >> round up in gusts (and not just yawls) is that when they heel, the
                                      > >> sails' center of effort is so far outboard of the lateral resistance.
                                      > >> Standard Micros take a lot to make them heel very much. Bruce has the
                                      > >> Navigator, with the Chinese gaff, I believe, and can have way more
                                      > >> sail up than I can with the plain Micro.
                                      > >>
                                      > >> He's probably right too about holing being a greater danger than
                                      > >> swamping. I am of the tentative opinion that fiberglass would be of
                                      > >> more use on the inside of the bottom than the outside. Its strength
                                      > >> in tension would do far more to prevent puncture there, I think.
                                      > >>
                                      > >> But not both inside and outside, as was done to George Anger's
                                      > >> Whalewatcher and ruined it utterly.
                                      > >>
                                      > >> *From:*bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] *On
                                      > >> Behalf Of *BruceHallman
                                      > >> *Sent:* Thursday, July 19, 2012 10:34 AM
                                      > >> *To:* bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                      > >> *Subject:* Re: [bolger] 85% complete Navigator, w/trlr, $300 Arkansas
                                      > >>
                                      > >> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 5:08 AM, Adirondack Goodboat
                                      > >> <goodboat@... <mailto:goodboat%40frontiernet.net>> wrote:
                                      > >> > It is so hard to imagine them put on their sides, in
                                      > >> > conditions anyone would expect to sail them in, and at that point
                                      > >> they would
                                      > >> > have great righting moment. If companionway or hatch were open,
                                      > >> though, they
                                      > >> > would fill,
                                      > >>
                                      > >> Owning a Micro Navigator, I am not sure I agree with the above.
                                      > >>
                                      > >> It is possible to have too much sail up and get hit by a strong gust.
                                      > >> (I have done that!) What happens is that the geometry of the Cat Yawl
                                      > >> rig puts a tremendous force that spins the hull head up into the wind.
                                      > >> There is also some force that makes the boat heel over, and this
                                      > >> serves to release the hold of the rudder on the water, which simply
                                      > >> accelerates the heading up process.
                                      > >>
                                      > >> I cannot imagine the hatches (located on centerline) ever reaching
                                      > >> water to flood.
                                      > >>
                                      > >> The case where I think the positive flotation would come into play
                                      > >> would be if you hit something submerged and poke a hole in the hull.
                                      > >>
                                      > >> The Micro Navigator seaworthiness gets weak in really strong winds
                                      > >> simply because her natural tendency is to heave-to. So, if you were
                                      > >> beating off of lee shore you might not make the headway you need.
                                      > >> (That said, she draws only 14" of water, so you would run aground and
                                      > >> walk away upon that hard chance.)
                                      > >>
                                      > >> For best comparison look to the Bolger steel design Col. HG Hassler.
                                      > >> Paraphrasing from the PB&F writeup, she can withstand anything, up to
                                      > >> and including being run over and dragged full length under a super
                                      > >> tanker. The MicroNav, being wood, might break up, but has the same
                                      > >> buoyancy curves as the HG Hassler.
                                      > >>
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >

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