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Windsprint Mast/Sail Questions- Minor Noob Pickle

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  • MPCOSG
    Hi! Lurker/noob builder here who is in a minor pickle due to loosing his set of plans. I ve looked everywhere, and can almost remember packing them in the last
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 20, 2012
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      Hi!
      Lurker/noob builder here who is in a minor pickle due to loosing his set of plans. I've looked everywhere, and can almost remember packing them in the last move, but damn if I can find them. Living in Maine, I was lucky enough to buy the plans off of Mr. Payson himself at his shop in Thomaston. Even got my BTHIB book signed and got invited in for a piece of pie. Super nice guy, wicked Mainer with the funky honest Abe/Yankee beard, really cool old shop -tons of models on the ceiling...
      Butanyway...
      A bit of history, I'm the lucky 3rd or 4th owner of this...
      http://www.sailingtexas.com/sbolgerwindsprint16100.html
      Absolutely wonderful to row on a large lake I live on and repainted yellow on the outside. Luckily, only the mast and sail are gone, so I'm attempting my first mast and polytarp sail. I've just ripped and laminated 2 - 3"x1.5"x16' pieces of local K-D spruce today (Holy Clamp!). I can kind of piece things together through the drawings in BTNIB.
      Rounding the mast seems very doable for me, geometry-wise. What would be the taper of a solid 3" mast or does it need to be tapered at all?

      Are there any other companies I should be aware of when looking to order a polytarp sail kit? I'm planning on ordering a kit from polysail.com.

      Lastly, for the moment, if I had access to a regular sewing machine, is it possible/advantageous/worth it to tape AND sew the the sail?
      Thanks, Matt
    • Joe T
      The mast taper can be determined by scaling from the drawing on page 81 in BTNIB. I suggest you do it with a metric ruler and a magnifying glass. I would keep
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 21, 2012
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        The mast taper can be determined by scaling from the drawing on page 81 in BTNIB. I suggest you do it with a metric ruler and a magnifying glass. I would keep it 3" up to 2'6" except for the taper at the bottom. For a solid mast you could leave the lower portion square then scale off the drawing every foot or two to determine the taper of the upper 14 feet. Lay out and cut the taper on four sides. Then use a jig to mark for 8 siding. You can leave it there or keep trimming with your plane and sand it round. Many options. You choose.
        Note that the drawing states "Mast 16'6" overall - fir or harder." Your use of local spruce will be an interesting experiment. -

        Joe T
      • Bill Howard
        Hello Matt: For only 40 bucks you can have the plans. I would make that investment in a heartbeat if the boat were mine. See
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 21, 2012
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        Hello Matt:

        For only 40 bucks you can have the plans.  I would make that investment in a heartbeat if the boat were mine.


        Bill Howard
        June Bug Builder 2007
        Nellysford VA
      • Peter
        ... Based on a sailmaking career comprising three polytarp sails, I would say yes. Tape is easy to use when assembling the sail and spreads the load. It also
        Message 4 of 14 , Jun 21, 2012
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          > Lastly, for the moment, if I had access to a regular sewing machine,
          > is it possible/advantageous/worth it to tape AND sew the the sail?

          Based on a sailmaking career comprising three polytarp sails, I would say yes. Tape is easy to use when assembling the sail and spreads the load. It also tends to creep, and stitching will stop that. I used an ordinary dressmaking-type machine. You need to plan ahead in order to get all the material through the limited space, but I don't imagine it's worse than a ball gown. The polytarp doesn't strain the machinery.

          Get advice about the thread. Any sewing ship or awning maker can save you from a mistake. I suppose the on-line sites can too. The only realy problem I had, aside from not knowing what I was doing, was that the needle got very sticky when stitching through the tape.
        • David
          I agree completely. After 4 polytarp sails (Oldshoe, Nymph and Zephyr) I would definitely sew every time. I have some sails which I only part sewed and it
          Message 5 of 14 , Jun 21, 2012
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            I agree completely.

            After 4 polytarp sails (Oldshoe, Nymph and Zephyr) I would definitely sew every time. I have some sails which I only part sewed and it shows...

            I am now using standard 3M or Tesa 1/2" double sided tape tape (as thin as possible) as I am only using it to hold tarp in place until sewn. I tried the more expensive water resistant tape but found that it was much more inclined to gum up the needle than the thin stuff.

            I use a standard Toyota sewing machine. It has a lot of fancy stitches but what I actually use is a zigzag with three stitches each way. This is slower than a standard zigzag but I find the machine is better capable of feeding the polytarp (with help) at a reasonably regular rate and I have never had a seam go.

            Re polytarp, I just bought white tarpaulin off a roll from a tarp shop. It comes on a 2m wide roll so the most I have had to join has been 2 panels lengthwise and in actual fact that join is quite short. The great advantage is that unlike a standard tarp the material had never been folded when I got it so it was easy to lay out and didn't need stretching.

            Best regards,


            David




            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
            >
            > > Lastly, for the moment, if I had access to a regular sewing machine,
            > > is it possible/advantageous/worth it to tape AND sew the the sail?
            >
            > Based on a sailmaking career comprising three polytarp sails, I would say yes. Tape is easy to use when assembling the sail and spreads the load. It also tends to creep, and stitching will stop that. I used an ordinary dressmaking-type machine. You need to plan ahead in order to get all the material through the limited space, but I don't imagine it's worse than a ball gown. The polytarp doesn't strain the machinery.
            >
            > Get advice about the thread. Any sewing ship or awning maker can save you from a mistake. I suppose the on-line sites can too. The only realy problem I had, aside from not knowing what I was doing, was that the needle got very sticky when stitching through the tape.
            >
          • MPCOSG
            Thanks David and Peter for those responses. Thanks Joe for the words on taper After, re-re-re-re-reading BTNIB (particularly in the chapter on wood) I noticed
            Message 6 of 14 , Jun 24, 2012
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              Thanks David and Peter for those responses. Thanks Joe for the words on taper

              After, re-re-re-re-reading BTNIB (particularly in the chapter on wood) I noticed Mr Payson does speak of using local Maine spruce and wrote that he used it often. Doug fir are Sitka are mentioned, but it seems only in passing comments and possibly hard to come by for most. Local fir is mentioned, but as then I have a hard time finding it in 16ft lengths. He actually states in the chapter on building the Gypsy, "Pine, Spruce, Fir - they're all OK as is most anything that is reasonably free of large knots and poor grain." So that made me feel good.

              Also I noticed the taper for the Gypsy doesn't seem to be that far off from the taper of a Windsprint. My math is pretty horrible but I'm coming up with...
              2 1/8" at the base
              1.5' above that,tapered out to 2 1/2",
              At the masthead, I think tapered to 1 1/8"

              Thinking about 2 routes to go. One would be keeping the taper constant at 2.5" above 2'6".
              The second would be, from above 2'6" keeping it at 2 1/2" all the way up to about 10'. Then past 10ft to 15.5' I plan on a gentle taper to 2.0".

              Thanks, Matt

              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe T" <scsbmsjoe@...> wrote:
              >
              > The mast taper can be determined by scaling from the drawing on page 81 in BTNIB. I suggest you do it with a metric ruler and a magnifying glass. I would keep it 3" up to 2'6" except for the taper at the bottom. For a solid mast you could leave the lower portion square then scale off the drawing every foot or two to determine the taper of the upper 14 feet. Lay out and cut the taper on four sides. Then use a jig to mark for 8 siding. You can leave it there or keep trimming with your plane and sand it round. Many options. You choose.
              > Note that the drawing states "Mast 16'6" overall - fir or harder." Your use of local spruce will be an interesting experiment. -
              >
              > Joe T
              >
            • Scot McPherson
              If when you go to the lumber yards or home depot or lowes or whatever, take a look at the SPF 2x4s. For the most part it will be pine, but sometime you find a
              Message 7 of 14 , Jun 24, 2012
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                If when you go to the lumber yards or home depot or lowes or whatever, take a look at the SPF 2x4s. For the most part it will be pine, but sometime you find a pile that is mostly pink tinged (yes pink). The pink wood is much harder that the yellow or white. I don't know what tree it is, but I suspect it is spruce. Generally I will grab as much of it as my car can carry on it's roof. I use it for most of my marine related projects. It's good for everything except canoe paddles because it tends to be heavy, and a heavy canoe paddle fatigues you quickly. I carve 1 piece otter tail paddles out of 2x4s and beaver tail paddles out of 2x6s and 2x8s.

                You can make a mast out of laminating two of these pink 2x4s and carving it out. The pink stuff is harder though, and harder on your planes and spoke shaves. 

                Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                Old Lyme, CT
                Le Claire, IA
                Sent from my iPhone

                On Jun 24, 2012, at 9:17 AM, "MPCOSG" <mpcosg@...> wrote:

                 

                Thanks David and Peter for those responses. Thanks Joe for the words on taper

                After, re-re-re-re-reading BTNIB (particularly in the chapter on wood) I noticed Mr Payson does speak of using local Maine spruce and wrote that he used it often. Doug fir are Sitka are mentioned, but it seems only in passing comments and possibly hard to come by for most. Local fir is mentioned, but as then I have a hard time finding it in 16ft lengths. He actually states in the chapter on building the Gypsy, "Pine, Spruce, Fir - they're all OK as is most anything that is reasonably free of large knots and poor grain." So that made me feel good.

                Also I noticed the taper for the Gypsy doesn't seem to be that far off from the taper of a Windsprint. My math is pretty horrible but I'm coming up with...
                2 1/8" at the base
                1.5' above that,tapered out to 2 1/2",
                At the masthead, I think tapered to 1 1/8"

                Thinking about 2 routes to go. One would be keeping the taper constant at 2.5" above 2'6".
                The second would be, from above 2'6" keeping it at 2 1/2" all the way up to about 10'. Then past 10ft to 15.5' I plan on a gentle taper to 2.0".

                Thanks, Matt

                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe T" <scsbmsjoe@...> wrote:
                >
                > The mast taper can be determined by scaling from the drawing on page 81 in BTNIB. I suggest you do it with a metric ruler and a magnifying glass. I would keep it 3" up to 2'6" except for the taper at the bottom. For a solid mast you could leave the lower portion square then scale off the drawing every foot or two to determine the taper of the upper 14 feet. Lay out and cut the taper on four sides. Then use a jig to mark for 8 siding. You can leave it there or keep trimming with your plane and sand it round. Many options. You choose.
                > Note that the drawing states "Mast 16'6" overall - fir or harder." Your use of local spruce will be an interesting experiment. -
                >
                > Joe T
                >

              • Bill Howard
                I used lumberyard spruce for the mast on my JuneBug. Laminated two pieces, then (with help from a furniture maker friend with a wonderful wood shop), cut the
                Message 8 of 14 , Jun 24, 2012
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                  I used lumberyard spruce for the mast on my JuneBug.  Laminated two pieces, then (with help from a furniture maker friend with a wonderful wood shop), cut the taper on a band saw.

                  Bill
                  Nellysford VA
                  On Jun 24, 2012, at 10:17 AM, MPCOSG wrote:

                   

                  Thanks David and Peter for those responses. Thanks Joe for the words on taper

                  After, re-re-re-re-reading BTNIB (particularly in the chapter on wood) I noticed Mr Payson does speak of using local Maine spruce and wrote that he used it often. Doug fir are Sitka are mentioned, but it seems only in passing comments and possibly hard to come by for most. Local fir is mentioned, but as then I have a hard time finding it in 16ft lengths. He actually states in the chapter on building the Gypsy, "Pine, Spruce, Fir - they're all OK as is most anything that is reasonably free of large knots and poor grain." So that made me feel good.

                  Also I noticed the taper for the Gypsy doesn't seem to be that far off from the taper of a Windsprint. My math is pretty horrible but I'm coming up with...
                  2 1/8" at the base
                  1.5' above that,tapered out to 2 1/2",
                  At the masthead, I think tapered to 1 1/8"

                  Thinking about 2 routes to go. One would be keeping the taper constant at 2.5" above 2'6".
                  The second would be, from above 2'6" keeping it at 2 1/2" all the way up to about 10'. Then past 10ft to 15.5' I plan on a gentle taper to 2.0".

                  Thanks, Matt

                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe T" <scsbmsjoe@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The mast taper can be determined by scaling from the drawing on page 81 in BTNIB. I suggest you do it with a metric ruler and a magnifying glass. I would keep it 3" up to 2'6" except for the taper at the bottom. For a solid mast you could leave the lower portion square then scale off the drawing every foot or two to determine the taper of the upper 14 feet. Lay out and cut the taper on four sides. Then use a jig to mark for 8 siding. You can leave it there or keep trimming with your plane and sand it round. Many options. You choose.
                  > Note that the drawing states "Mast 16'6" overall - fir or harder." Your use of local spruce will be an interesting experiment. -
                  >
                  > Joe T
                  >


                • Crandall, Chris S.
                  I bought a small band saw with the idea that I would use it to cut the taper on my Teal mast. And I did. But what I found is that it s more accurate, more
                  Message 9 of 14 , Jun 25, 2012
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                    I bought a small band saw with the idea that I would use it to cut the taper on my Teal mast. And I did.

                    But what I found is that it's more accurate, more controllable, less expensive, and more rewarding to do the work with a plane. Quieter, cheaper, easier to clean up, and a more elemental experience.  I'll never bandsaw a small mast again. (There's nothing wrong with it, it's just not as pleasant.)

                    -Chris
                  • Scot Mc Pherson
                    Honestly I use a jig saw to do the grossest hog-out on my paddles, but only on the one plane where you cut out the hourglasss shape into it. You are right,
                    Message 10 of 14 , Jun 25, 2012
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                      Honestly I use a jig saw to do the grossest hog-out on my paddles, but only on the one plane where you cut out the hourglasss shape into it. You are right, it's a totally different experience, but using a plane to do hogging work is really a waste of time. Use the bandsaw to get it close, don't cut right to the line, then use your planes and spoke shaves to smooth it down and round it out.
                       
                      Alternatively if you want that "elemental" experience, learn to use a draw knife. It'll let you hog out with your hands, but do it quite a bit faster than a plane.

                      Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                      Old Lyme, CT, USA
                      Le Claire, IA, USA
                      Scot McPherson | Linkedin



                      On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Crandall, Chris S. <crandall@...> wrote:
                       

                      I bought a small band saw with the idea that I would use it to cut the taper on my Teal mast. And I did.

                      But what I found is that it's more accurate, more controllable, less expensive, and more rewarding to do the work with a plane. Quieter, cheaper, easier to clean up, and a more elemental experience.  I'll never bandsaw a small mast again. (There's nothing wrong with it, it's just not as pleasant.)

                      -Chris


                    • Joe T
                      I m pretty sure that pink lumber is Douglas Fir: harder, heavier and stronger than spruce. Use what works for you. Joe T
                      Message 11 of 14 , Jun 25, 2012
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                        I'm pretty sure that pink lumber is Douglas Fir: harder, heavier and stronger than spruce. Use what works for you.

                        Joe T

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Scot McPherson <scot.mcpherson@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > If when you go to the lumber yards or home depot or lowes or whatever, take a look at the SPF 2x4s. For the most part it will be pine, but sometime you find a pile that is mostly pink tinged (yes pink). The pink wood is much harder that the yellow or white. I don't know what tree it is, but I suspect it is spruce. ...
                      • David
                        In my case I have built masts from whatever I have found available. For Oldshoe I used what I believe is some kind of Canadian pine. It is imported from Canada
                        Message 12 of 14 , Jun 26, 2012
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                          In my case I have built masts from whatever I have found available. For Oldshoe I used what I believe is some kind of Canadian pine. It is imported from Canada (to Chile) as deck material. It is relatively clean, comes in 2x6 and 2x8 in different lengths and is reasonably priced despite being shipped by containerload, so assume it must be available in the US.

                          The dealer lets me sort through a pack, so in general I can find 6-10 really decent ones (with straight grain and only few small firm knots). I scarfed the lengths together to get the 19' mast for Oldshoe and laminated two with plenty of epoxy.

                          I rough out the shape of the laminates with my jigsaw, choosing the best available orientation for the wood I have and then laminate with Epoxy. To date they have all held out fine. My warning is to cut well clear of the mark as the jigsaw tends to not cut vertically in the thicker woods.

                          I agree that the planing is the real joy (old fashioned Jack plane, not power).

                          For the booms I use the same wood but find the cleanest bit I can and scarf out the knots. If there are too many, I laminate from two layers (even if it means cutting a piece in two and sticking it back together again, as this allows the knots to be distributed.

                          For a small boat, my advice is follow Dynamite Payson's "Just Do It" theory. In practice, common sense should show if there is anything badly wrong and it is actually quite fun to make spars...

                          David
                          Santiago, Chile

                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Crandall, Chris S." <crandall@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I bought a small band saw with the idea that I would use it to cut the taper on my Teal mast. And I did.
                          >
                          > But what I found is that it's more accurate, more controllable, less expensive, and more rewarding to do the work with a plane. Quieter, cheaper, easier to clean up, and a more elemental experience. I'll never bandsaw a small mast again. (There's nothing wrong with it, it's just not as pleasant.)
                          >
                          > -Chris
                          >
                        • MPCOSG
                          Thanks David, funny you said the Just Do It thing, Mr. Payson actually wrote that when he signed one of my books. So far, with my incredibly small quiver of
                          Message 13 of 14 , Jun 30, 2012
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                            Thanks David, funny you said the Just Do It thing, Mr. Payson actually wrote that when he signed one of my books.
                            So far, with my incredibly small quiver of tools, a circular saw has gotten me down to a rough 4 sided taper. I then have switched to a jig saw for some finer work and then 8 siding the taper. After that I found my strategy of snading with very rough grit wasn't really working. I then discover a hand plane by accident and that 70 year old plane has saved my ass. Wow. It turned from "What the hell am I doing?" to "This is actually fun" in about 2 minutes.
                            I totally agree on the circular, or jig saw, inabilty to cut deep and vertical.
                            Thanks, Matt

                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > In my case I have built masts from whatever I have found available. For Oldshoe I used what I believe is some kind of Canadian pine. It is imported from Canada (to Chile) as deck material. It is relatively clean, comes in 2x6 and 2x8 in different lengths and is reasonably priced despite being shipped by containerload, so assume it must be available in the US.
                            >
                            > The dealer lets me sort through a pack, so in general I can find 6-10 really decent ones (with straight grain and only few small firm knots). I scarfed the lengths together to get the 19' mast for Oldshoe and laminated two with plenty of epoxy.
                            >
                            > I rough out the shape of the laminates with my jigsaw, choosing the best available orientation for the wood I have and then laminate with Epoxy. To date they have all held out fine. My warning is to cut well clear of the mark as the jigsaw tends to not cut vertically in the thicker woods.
                            >
                            > I agree that the planing is the real joy (old fashioned Jack plane, not power).
                            >
                            > For the booms I use the same wood but find the cleanest bit I can and scarf out the knots. If there are too many, I laminate from two layers (even if it means cutting a piece in two and sticking it back together again, as this allows the knots to be distributed.
                            >
                            > For a small boat, my advice is follow Dynamite Payson's "Just Do It" theory. In practice, common sense should show if there is anything badly wrong and it is actually quite fun to make spars...
                            >
                            > David
                            > Santiago, Chile
                            >
                            > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Crandall, Chris S." <crandall@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I bought a small band saw with the idea that I would use it to cut the taper on my Teal mast. And I did.
                            > >
                            > > But what I found is that it's more accurate, more controllable, less expensive, and more rewarding to do the work with a plane. Quieter, cheaper, easier to clean up, and a more elemental experience. I'll never bandsaw a small mast again. (There's nothing wrong with it, it's just not as pleasant.)
                            > >
                            > > -Chris
                            > >
                            >
                          • David
                            Matt. Same here. I use my grandfathers plane (a Record #6)... the same one my mother remembers him using to repair the rocking horse when she was a child over
                            Message 14 of 14 , Jul 3, 2012
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                              Matt.

                              Same here. I use my grandfathers plane (a Record #6)... the same one my mother remembers him using to repair the rocking horse when she was a child over 60 years ago. My son (then 10) used it to plane the mast for his Nymph a couple of years ago.

                              David

                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "MPCOSG" <mpcosg@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Thanks David, funny you said the Just Do It thing, Mr. Payson actually wrote that when he signed one of my books.
                              > So far, with my incredibly small quiver of tools, a circular saw has gotten me down to a rough 4 sided taper. I then have switched to a jig saw for some finer work and then 8 siding the taper. After that I found my strategy of snading with very rough grit wasn't really working. I then discover a hand plane by accident and that 70 year old plane has saved my ass. Wow. It turned from "What the hell am I doing?" to "This is actually fun" in about 2 minutes.
                              > I totally agree on the circular, or jig saw, inabilty to cut deep and vertical.
                              > Thanks, Matt
                              >
                              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > In my case I have built masts from whatever I have found available. For Oldshoe I used what I believe is some kind of Canadian pine. It is imported from Canada (to Chile) as deck material. It is relatively clean, comes in 2x6 and 2x8 in different lengths and is reasonably priced despite being shipped by containerload, so assume it must be available in the US.
                              > >
                              > > The dealer lets me sort through a pack, so in general I can find 6-10 really decent ones (with straight grain and only few small firm knots). I scarfed the lengths together to get the 19' mast for Oldshoe and laminated two with plenty of epoxy.
                              > >
                              > > I rough out the shape of the laminates with my jigsaw, choosing the best available orientation for the wood I have and then laminate with Epoxy. To date they have all held out fine. My warning is to cut well clear of the mark as the jigsaw tends to not cut vertically in the thicker woods.
                              > >
                              > > I agree that the planing is the real joy (old fashioned Jack plane, not power).
                              > >
                              > > For the booms I use the same wood but find the cleanest bit I can and scarf out the knots. If there are too many, I laminate from two layers (even if it means cutting a piece in two and sticking it back together again, as this allows the knots to be distributed.
                              > >
                              > > For a small boat, my advice is follow Dynamite Payson's "Just Do It" theory. In practice, common sense should show if there is anything badly wrong and it is actually quite fun to make spars...
                              > >
                              > > David
                              > > Santiago, Chile
                              > >
                              > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Crandall, Chris S." <crandall@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > I bought a small band saw with the idea that I would use it to cut the taper on my Teal mast. And I did.
                              > > >
                              > > > But what I found is that it's more accurate, more controllable, less expensive, and more rewarding to do the work with a plane. Quieter, cheaper, easier to clean up, and a more elemental experience. I'll never bandsaw a small mast again. (There's nothing wrong with it, it's just not as pleasant.)
                              > > >
                              > > > -Chris
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
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