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Re: [bolger] Re: wider as 29

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  • Douglas Pollard
    I am well aware of Manatee as she and Sam Crockers 30 1/2ft Gull class ketch as well as Commodore Monro s thinking were at part of Wolftraps design. I have
    Message 1 of 123 , Jun 3, 2012
      I am well aware of Manatee as she and Sam Crockers 30 1/2ft Gull class ketch as well as Commodore Monro's thinking were at part of Wolftraps design.  I have not seen anything on Ataraxia. I will look around on line and see if I can find her there.  You said the magic words "go together easy" as that is also a big factor as my building crew are not boat builders and I expect they will take all I can muster to keep them from adding attic dormers someplace.  They are surly enthusiastic if nothing else. I get a call from one or the other of them every night.   I am the one holding up the whole show.                          Thanks, Doug  

      On 06/03/2012 01:28 PM, Eric wrote:
       

      Oh, I think this is the perfect list for you to discuss your desires in a boat. Your desires are very much the sort that are being thought of precisely because Phil Bolger inspired the world to think way outside the box.

      I'll be bold enough to say you do not need a boat that is slow to meet your stated desires, though you do need a boat that you will sail leisurely or motor.

      When drying out upright is more important than sailing performance, there are lots of options.

      ROGUE's hull is Romp scaled down, a Bolger barge hull. I wanted a boat that would dry out upright, so I built ROGUE without a keel. ROGUE has a perfectly flat bottom. I reinforced the bottom with extra layers of epoxy fiberglass and epoxy polyester(?) fabric that has exceptional abrasion characteristics. Had I not been interested in keeping weights down, and been interested in drying out on rocks I could have shod the flat part of the bottom with a chunk or chunks of well bedded steel bolted on. Even when raised to be even with the bottom the leeboards allow ROGUE to sail as well as you require. Leeboards free up the cabin and serve when a centerboard will be housed and useless.

      Another option can be seen in the drawings of the Bird of Dawning (Different Boats) that did not get built: Two short keels side by side amidships and a third shallow keel skeg to protect the rudder.

      Another option would be to build one of Bolger's barges to plans and add two short keels outboard of the keel to ensure the boat would dry out upright. I would arrange them so that they would bolt on and off so a future owner could easily remove them if better performance was wanted at the expense of drying out perfectly upright (to the bottom contour). This solution could be applied to a stretched/heightened Wolf Trap which I think might be able to be built somewhat less expensively in plywood than a barge hull could be built (but I might very well be wrong about this).

      Manatee (Different Boats) is about the size you want, and Jim Melcher did add a short cabin trunk to create standing head room without spoiling performance, but even that modification would not give you standing headroom throughout.

      Ataraxia (BWAOM) is a motor sailer and though larger at 36', about perfectly fits your needs, if you ignore the fact that it was designed with a level of seaworthiness far in excess of your needs. You would not want the dipping lug sail, but a junk rig could be directly substituted with no other changes to the design. The ability to lower the counterweighted mast at whim would make creek frontage upstream of a bridge an option in your real estate search. The simplicity of the interior, and the slab sided barge hull form, mean that this interior would go together more cheaply than the same accommodations in a smaller more complex shaped hull.

      Eric

      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> wrote:
      >
      > Eric,
      > There is no doubt in my mind that Wolftrap was one of those perfect
      > boats that show up now and the. That may be true but seems to imply
      > that she was a boat that just happened which was not true.
      > I had very specific reasons for building her and she met a great
      > many of them. We sailed the Chesapeake bay and wanted to wonder the
      > outer banks, the inland water way, Florida keys and wonder the Bahamas.
      > I wanted a boat with no engine but I also wanted to build and sell one
      > or two boats a year. Mr. Bolger convinced me that I would find very few
      > buyers for an engine less sail boat so she had the smallest engine I
      > could by that was diesel. Without an engine she needed to be able to
      > sail enough to windward with the board up to sail into a shallow creek
      > to anchor for the night.
      > Because we were a metal working shop we could work well with
      > aluminum. I was a schooner ketch enthusiast. I bought into the idea
      > that I should try Bolgers rig. It was a rig I really did not understand
      > or appreciate until I converted the boat to a schooner rig. I still
      > like a schooner or ketch but would be inclined to go with one using
      > Bolgers sprite rigs with the addition of a top sprite like my little
      > Elver has so as to be able to quickly scandalize the sails for a quick
      > reef of sorts.
      > I am a firm believer that I personally can never go home. Wolf
      > trap was a wonderful boat but I have been there, and done that, and she
      > does not apply to my future needs.
      > I am looking to a time when we will just want to be at home. A
      > boat then needs to be one that we can moore close to shore in the
      > shallows close to a small piece of water front land that I will buy.
      > (Am now looking). I will be wanting to sail some but don't care if I
      > have to motor sail to windward. I am getting slow so I don't care if the
      > boat is slow. I want room onboard and since I will be wanting to anchor
      > or moor close to land in shallow water she needs to be flat bottomed to
      > rest comfortably on the bottom during the winter months when north west
      > winds blows the water out of the creeks. I guess what I am really
      > considering is a house boat that can sail some.
      > Even Bolgers AS 29 with so much rocker may not serve this drying
      > out consideration all that well.
      > I am thinking I want a barge that can sail some.
      > This is not really the list for this kind of boat to be
      > discussed on. But when I started I was considering a modified AS 29. I
      > was hoping some one had build a wider one for a similar purpose. Doug
      >
      > ``
      > On 06/02/2012 09:18 PM, Eric wrote:
      > >
      > > Wolf Trap's cat yawl rig is handsome, but the schooner rig is so
      > > beautifully married to the hull form that you would just have to go
      > > slower in order to give people more time to admire Wolf Trap. (Picture
      > > and line drawings here
      > > http://sailboatsfairandfine.blogspot.com/search/label/Wolftrap ) I
      > > took notice of the bagged flat spinnaker and other large sail bag that
      > > I assume carried a staysail to fly off the main mast. Your demonic
      > > desire for ever more canvas brought a smile of appreciation to my face.
      > >
      > > Wolf Trap is a hard act to follow. Perhaps there is a possibility for
      > > your last boat to be one you could love as much as you loved Wolf
      > > Trap. I have a possibility to suggest which might interest others on
      > > this list.
      > >
      > > In most cases making a good design wider on the same length spoils the
      > > good of a design, but lengthening a good design on the same width
      > > often produces an even better boat. It is a safer bet, in any case.
      > >
      > > Doug, from what you have said, I gather Wolf Trap had standing
      > > headroom in the head under the hatch. The hatch being only a few
      > > inches higher than the deck would mean that the flush deck would not
      > > have to be raised very much to get standing headroom throughout the
      > > cabin. Doing so would spoil Wolf Trap, but not if Wolf Trap was scaled
      > > up. Stability increases with length as well as width, so it might be
      > > possible to get a very nice boat by stretching the length and hight
      > > dimensions, and perhaps not even needing to expand the width
      > > dimension. Obviously aluminum would be ideal, but the same expansions
      > > that are good for building in aluminum are directly transferable to
      > > plywood. Phil Bolger was a master at drawing designs which wasted
      > > little material. An enlarged Wolf Trap might be much more wasteful of
      > > material, but some wasted MDO plywood might be easily tolerated. Mono
      > > coupe construction could be had by epoxy fiberglass coating interior
      > > and exterior and joining interior components one with the hull, as
      > > with the original Wolf Trap. A different design, but a design perhaps
      > > worth paying for. With schooner rig you would have an easy rig to
      > > handle that would not require that you set enough sail to beat forty
      > > footers.
      > >
      > > A significant advantage of a slightly enlarged plywood Wolf Trap over
      > > a Trillo would be resale value. This would be an advantage over an AS
      > > design as well. It would be a somewhat more difficult boat for an
      > > amateur to build, but not for a skilled boat builder. So the cost
      > > difference between a Trillo or AS design would simply be whatever
      > > differences there were of displacement, and differences in
      > > complication of interior, rig and auxilliary propulsion. It might not
      > > amount to much, or at least be an economical trade off.
      > >
      > > Eric
      > >
      > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>,
      > > Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Eric, Sorry I did not get back before now. Yes you are right about the
      > > > weight of Wolftrap. Had not really thought that much about it but she
      > > > weighed 5000 lbs as she was when we first sailed her with500 lbs of
      > > > ballast. Later we added more and finally as a schooner she must have
      > > > weighed maybe 6500 lbs. She was build very light with tubing for
      > > > stringers and almost no frames and using aluminum furniture that was
      > > > built into the hull. She was mono coupe construction. She was
      > > > intended for Chesapeake bay sailing and we added the ballast to get her
      > > > a little heavier. When we first began sailing her she didn't even have
      > > > a chine in the water. She was intended to carry a lot of sail for the
      > > > light air of the Bay here and so was reefed early. We sailed her off
      > > > the wind with main, mizzen, flat spinnaker and a Mizzen stay-sail. On
      > > > my Blog "Sailboats Fair and Fine' there are lots of pictures, story and
      > > > description. Click this link or copy and paste. I think I mentioned she
      > > > was slower with the schooner rig and additional Ballast. This will keep
      > > > you busy for a while.:-)
      > > >
      > > > Doug
      > > >
      > > >
      > > http://sailboatsfairandfine.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2006-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&updated-max=2007-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&max-results=9
      > > <http://sailboatsfairandfine.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2006-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&updated-max=2007-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&max-results=9>
      > >
      > >
      >


    • Eric
      Doug, It was fun to give some thought to your situation. I think you have reached a good conclusion. Someone posted a link on the Junk Rig group to a Craigs
      Message 123 of 123 , Jun 21, 2012
        Doug,

        It was fun to give some thought to your situation. I think you have reached a good conclusion. Someone posted a link on the Junk Rig group to a Craigs List add for a wooden Colvin designed 36' junk. The boat, now just a hull and diesel in pretty good shape, was selling for half the cost of the cushions I'm having built for my boat. It took me a decade and a lot of money to build as much a boat (and smaller by far) as someone can buy for less than $2000. Buying used or keeping the boat one has is a much better idea than building unless building is the point, or building gets special qualities that are just too important to compromise on.

        Happy sailing. Its been fun talking boats with you. And I'm really glad our conversation lead me to the wisdom contained in some of your earlier posts.

        Eric



        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> wrote:
        >
        > Eric I lost a couple of your posts so replied to this older one. I
        > spent a week on My Albin Vega sailing and doing a little work while at
        > Anchor. Had a great time. The marina I am in has lost about half of the
        > boats that have been kept there and many of them are up for sale and are
        > selling for nothing. To build a new boat I would have to sell mine and
        > If I needed to sell the new boat it would have to go really cheap. I
        > came to the conclusion that this is just not the time to be building and
        > selling boats.
        > There is just to much that is up in the air to make such a change.
        > We have decided to keep our house maybe rent it out some but let our
        > kids worry about what the heck to do with it later.
        > The boat we have has enough space to live aboard in the winters
        > down in Florida and the Bahamas and stay here in the house in Virginia
        > during the summer. The Vega is a bit cramped and draws more water than
        > I would like but is easy to sail and won't take a year to build another
        > year to get ready to go cruising. At my age those two years are
        > valuable ones for cruising and sailing.
        > So we had a long talk, an that is the decision we have made. and
        > believe it or not we are feeling much relieved that we don't have to
        > tackle the big job of building a boat.
        > I am sorry I worried you with my problem but in truth I guess old
        > age conservatism has won out over youthful adventure. Thanks much, Doug
        >
        >
        > On 06/02/2012 09:18 PM, Eric wrote:
        > >
        > > Wolf Trap's cat yawl rig is handsome, but the schooner rig is so
        > > beautifully married to the hull form that you would just have to go
        > > slower in order to give people more time to admire Wolf Trap. (Picture
        > > and line drawings here
        > > http://sailboatsfairandfine.blogspot.com/search/label/Wolftrap ) I
        > > took notice of the bagged flat spinnaker and other large sail bag that
        > > I assume carried a staysail to fly off the main mast. Your demonic
        > > desire for ever more canvas brought a smile of appreciation to my face.
        > >
        > > Wolf Trap is a hard act to follow. Perhaps there is a possibility for
        > > your last boat to be one you could love as much as you loved Wolf
        > > Trap. I have a possibility to suggest which might interest others on
        > > this list.
        > >
        > > In most cases making a good design wider on the same length spoils the
        > > good of a design, but lengthening a good design on the same width
        > > often produces an even better boat. It is a safer bet, in any case.
        > >
        > > Doug, from what you have said, I gather Wolf Trap had standing
        > > headroom in the head under the hatch. The hatch being only a few
        > > inches higher than the deck would mean that the flush deck would not
        > > have to be raised very much to get standing headroom throughout the
        > > cabin. Doing so would spoil Wolf Trap, but not if Wolf Trap was scaled
        > > up. Stability increases with length as well as width, so it might be
        > > possible to get a very nice boat by stretching the length and hight
        > > dimensions, and perhaps not even needing to expand the width
        > > dimension. Obviously aluminum would be ideal, but the same expansions
        > > that are good for building in aluminum are directly transferable to
        > > plywood. Phil Bolger was a master at drawing designs which wasted
        > > little material. An enlarged Wolf Trap might be much more wasteful of
        > > material, but some wasted MDO plywood might be easily tolerated. Mono
        > > coupe construction could be had by epoxy fiberglass coating interior
        > > and exterior and joining interior components one with the hull, as
        > > with the original Wolf Trap. A different design, but a design perhaps
        > > worth paying for. With schooner rig you would have an easy rig to
        > > handle that would not require that you set enough sail to beat forty
        > > footers.
        > >
        > > A significant advantage of a slightly enlarged plywood Wolf Trap over
        > > a Trillo would be resale value. This would be an advantage over an AS
        > > design as well. It would be a somewhat more difficult boat for an
        > > amateur to build, but not for a skilled boat builder. So the cost
        > > difference between a Trillo or AS design would simply be whatever
        > > differences there were of displacement, and differences in
        > > complication of interior, rig and auxilliary propulsion. It might not
        > > amount to much, or at least be an economical trade off.
        > >
        > > Eric
        > >
        > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>,
        > > Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Eric, Sorry I did not get back before now. Yes you are right about the
        > > > weight of Wolftrap. Had not really thought that much about it but she
        > > > weighed 5000 lbs as she was when we first sailed her with500 lbs of
        > > > ballast. Later we added more and finally as a schooner she must have
        > > > weighed maybe 6500 lbs. She was build very light with tubing for
        > > > stringers and almost no frames and using aluminum furniture that was
        > > > built into the hull. She was mono coupe construction. She was
        > > > intended for Chesapeake bay sailing and we added the ballast to get her
        > > > a little heavier. When we first began sailing her she didn't even have
        > > > a chine in the water. She was intended to carry a lot of sail for the
        > > > light air of the Bay here and so was reefed early. We sailed her off
        > > > the wind with main, mizzen, flat spinnaker and a Mizzen stay-sail. On
        > > > my Blog "Sailboats Fair and Fine' there are lots of pictures, story and
        > > > description. Click this link or copy and paste. I think I mentioned she
        > > > was slower with the schooner rig and additional Ballast. This will keep
        > > > you busy for a while.:-)
        > > >
        > > > Doug
        > > >
        > > >
        > > http://sailboatsfairandfine.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2006-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&updated-max=2007-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&max-results=9
        > > <http://sailboatsfairandfine.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2006-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&updated-max=2007-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&max-results=9>
        > >
        > >
        >
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