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RE: [bolger] Inboard idea... (thrust bearing?)

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  • Wayne Gilham
    There already exists a well-engineered system (installed in some manufactured boats - a 1995 Morgan 45 sailboat we have listed includes this) that uses a
    Message 1 of 12 , May 9, 2012
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    There already exists a well-engineered system (installed in some manufactured boats - a 1995 Morgan
    45 sailboat we have listed includes this) that uses a typical "self-aligning" pillow-block
    thrust-bearing firmly attached to the hull at forward end of prop-shaft, followed by a
    constant-velocity "cardan-shaft" to allow the engine to be mounted very softly (extremely "loose"
    rubber mounts") specifically to avoid transfer of engine-vibrations into the hull -- DOES reduce
    noise significantly.



    But if you thought marine transmissions were expensive.....



    see: http://www.aquadrive.com/system.html



    These are usually installed to a marine engine with marine transmission (of course then the marine
    transmission's thrust bearing is redundant) -- but note that thereby, there IS still in the
    driveline, the typical "drive-plate" (with springs) between engine and marine transmission, which is
    there to absorb the high-speed torque-vibration of each cylinder's firing, to protect (yes) the
    transmission (but also) the shafting and prop -- rumor has it that without such torsion flexibility,
    the mechanicals beyond the engine can self-destruct.



    I challenge you to reverse-engineer the concept using industrial-supplyhouse pillow-block thrust
    bearing, and perhaps junkyard constant-velocity shafting from a front-wheel-drive car... as far as
    THAT goes, I wonder if the wheel's bearing that such front-wheel drive shafting "ends" at, would be
    sufficient as the thrust-bearing? just mount the entire brake-carrier casting right to a bulkhead
    firmly installed where the shaft comes thru the bottom of the boat..... oops, THAT car-system is
    operating at considerably lower rpm, I suspect...



    BUT if your initial reverse-engineered design has "teething problems" like any invention... it
    becomes a question of "what's your time worth"? it's worth noting that Sir James Dyson built 5,127
    fully functioning prototypes of his bagless vacuum-cleaner, before he finally came up with the first
    model suitable for marketing to the masses.



    Might be far more re-assuring to just bite the financial bullet and find a proven marine
    transmission with integral thrust bearing, used and/or rebuilt. There has been nearly a hundred
    years by now of expensive engineering and manufacturing experience.... Out here on the Salish-Sea
    end of Left Coast (Pacific NW) the true expert in marine transmissions is Mike Vogt of Harbor Marine
    in Everett, WA.... no I don't think he would take kindly to long discussions on "re-inventing" the
    marine transmission, but he's the go-to guy for supply of new/"take-out"/used marine transmissions,
    as well as parts for every known type -- and, of course, in-house repair.



    Regards,

    Wayne Gilham



    From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of farna@...
    Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 6:50 AM
    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [bolger] Inboard idea...





    I'm eventually going to build an inboard with the motor up near the front. Haven't settled on a hull
    yet, but have been thinking on the motor. It will be an automotive conversion. I've seen a couple
    with Honda car engines, and want something small similar to that, but I may have access to a 120 hp
    Mercruiser (Cold Chevy 140 cubic inch four). Don't want the in/out arrangement, straight shaft
    inboard.

    I've seen two older conversions that used an automotive transmission. One used twin sixes with
    automatic transmissions. In that one one trans was run in reverse all the time, the other always in
    first, so props were turned opposite each other. Gear reductions were close in those gears -- the
    props were custom made to make up the difference. Owner said that cruising at about 25 knots the
    throttles were perfectly aligned, slightly out at lower speeds to balance. The other used a manual
    three speed trans with a single engine. The engine was just behind the driver's seat and had a hand
    clutch arrangement with two cables. The cable were connected one to the first/reverse and one to the
    2nd/3rd shift levers. They were adjusted so that they would only shift neutral/revers and
    neutral/3rd (a manual stop to prevent 1st and 2nd operation might have been in place... he may have
    used 2nd instead of 3rd, as 3rd is 1:1).

    What I don't know is how the thrust arrangement was made. I believe the manual trans used a single
    universal joint at the trans, not sure about the autos, though they had to have some type of slip
    coupling. Shouldn't there be something on the shaft itself to handle thrust of the prop, or is it
    just right up the shaft into the transmission? Cars don't have anything, but the thrust is taken
    through the suspension, not the drive shaft/transmission/engine. I suppose I could use a pillow
    block bearing near the trans that has a thrust bearing in it...
  • Wayne Gilham
    AHA! yep, the AquaDrive system has its own design of torsional-vibration dampener (a.k.a. driveplate ) -- so even in this system, they have found it
    Message 2 of 12 , May 9, 2012
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    AHA! yep, the AquaDrive system has its own design of torsional-vibration dampener (a.k.a.
    "driveplate") -- so even in this system, they have found it necessary to isolate down-stream
    components from the engine's firing impulses....



    see bottom component on this sheet: http://www.aquadrive.com/models.html



    Wayne Gilham

    (please ignore the attachment - there's nothing in it -- can't figure out how to stop my Outlook
    from attaching that null-file)



    From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Gilham
    Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 9:09 AM
    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: RE: [bolger] Inboard idea... (thrust bearing?) [1 Attachment]





    [Attachment(s) from Wayne Gilham included below]

    There already exists a well-engineered system (installed in some manufactured boats - a 1995 Morgan
    45 sailboat we have listed includes this) that uses a typical "self-aligning" pillow-block
    thrust-bearing firmly attached to the hull at forward end of prop-shaft, followed by a
    constant-velocity "cardan-shaft" to allow the engine to be mounted very softly (extremely "loose"
    rubber mounts") specifically to avoid transfer of engine-vibrations into the hull -- DOES reduce
    noise significantly.

    But if you thought marine transmissions were expensive.....

    see: http://www.aquadrive.com/system.html

    These are usually installed to a marine engine with marine transmission (of course then the marine
    transmission's thrust bearing is redundant) -- but note that thereby, there IS still in the
    driveline, the typical "drive-plate" (with springs) between engine and marine transmission, which is
    there to absorb the high-speed torque-vibration of each cylinder's firing, to protect (yes) the
    transmission (but also) the shafting and prop -- rumor has it that without such torsion flexibility,
    the mechanicals beyond the engine can self-destruct.

    I challenge you to reverse-engineer the concept using industrial-supplyhouse pillow-block thrust
    bearing, and perhaps junkyard constant-velocity shafting from a front-wheel-drive car... as far as
    THAT goes, I wonder if the wheel's bearing that such front-wheel drive shafting "ends" at, would be
    sufficient as the thrust-bearing? just mount the entire brake-carrier casting right to a bulkhead
    firmly installed where the shaft comes thru the bottom of the boat..... oops, THAT car-system is
    operating at considerably lower rpm, I suspect...

    BUT if your initial reverse-engineered design has "teething problems" like any invention... it
    becomes a question of "what's your time worth"? it's worth noting that Sir James Dyson built 5,127
    fully functioning prototypes of his bagless vacuum-cleaner, before he finally came up with the first
    model suitable for marketing to the masses.

    Might be far more re-assuring to just bite the financial bullet and find a proven marine
    transmission with integral thrust bearing, used and/or rebuilt. There has been nearly a hundred
    years by now of expensive engineering and manufacturing experience.... Out here on the Salish-Sea
    end of Left Coast (Pacific NW) the true expert in marine transmissions is Mike Vogt of Harbor Marine
    in Everett, WA.... no I don't think he would take kindly to long discussions on "re-inventing" the
    marine transmission, but he's the go-to guy for supply of new/"take-out"/used marine transmissions,
    as well as parts for every known type -- and, of course, in-house repair.

    Regards,

    Wayne Gilham

    From: bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com
    <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of farna@... <mailto:farna%40att.net>
    Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 6:50 AM
    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
    Subject: [bolger] Inboard idea...

    I'm eventually going to build an inboard with the motor up near the front. Haven't settled on a hull
    yet, but have been thinking on the motor. It will be an automotive conversion. I've seen a couple
    with Honda car engines, and want something small similar to that, but I may have access to a 120 hp
    Mercruiser (Cold Chevy 140 cubic inch four). Don't want the in/out arrangement, straight shaft
    inboard.

    I've seen two older conversions that used an automotive transmission. One used twin sixes with
    automatic transmissions. In that one one trans was run in reverse all the time, the other always in
    first, so props were turned opposite each other. Gear reductions were close in those gears -- the
    props were custom made to make up the difference. Owner said that cruising at about 25 knots the
    throttles were perfectly aligned, slightly out at lower speeds to balance. The other used a manual
    three speed trans with a single engine. The engine was just behind the driver's seat and had a hand
    clutch arrangement with two cables. The cable were connected one to the first/reverse and one to the
    2nd/3rd shift levers. They were adjusted so that they would only shift neutral/revers and
    neutral/3rd (a manual stop to prevent 1st and 2nd operation might have been in place... he may have
    used 2nd instead of 3rd, as 3rd is 1:1).

    What I don't know is how the thrust arrangement was made. I believe the manual trans used a single
    universal joint at the trans, not sure about the autos, though they had to have some type of slip
    coupling. Shouldn't there be something on the shaft itself to handle thrust of the prop, or is it
    just right up the shaft into the transmission? Cars don't have anything, but the thrust is taken
    through the suspension, not the drive shaft/transmission/engine. I suppose I could use a pillow
    block bearing near the trans that has a thrust bearing in it...
  • Pierce Nichols
    It might be worth talking to the folks who do auto engine conversions for homebuilt aircraft. Other than weight, the constraints and requirements are similar.
    Message 3 of 12 , May 9, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      It might be worth talking to the folks who do auto engine conversions for homebuilt aircraft. Other than weight, the constraints and requirements are similar. However, the homebuilt folks have an excuse for doing this in the fact that certified aircraft piston engines are still late 50s designs. That excuse does not, however, hold for marine piston engines, which have largely benefited from the technological advances in car engines.

      The only way I can imagine this making any sense at all is if you either really enjoy this kind of challenge or if you have a donor car on hand and much more time than money.

      -p

      On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 9:09 AM, Wayne Gilham <wgilham@...> wrote:
      <*>[Attachment(s) from Wayne Gilham included below]

      There already exists a well-engineered system (installed in some manufactured boats - a 1995 Morgan
      45 sailboat we have listed includes this) that uses a typical "self-aligning" pillow-block
      thrust-bearing firmly attached to the hull at forward end of prop-shaft, followed by a
      constant-velocity "cardan-shaft" to allow the engine to be mounted very softly (extremely "loose"
      rubber mounts") specifically to avoid transfer of engine-vibrations into the hull -- DOES reduce
      noise significantly.



      But if you thought marine transmissions were expensive.....



      see:  http://www.aquadrive.com/system.html



      These are usually installed to a marine engine with marine transmission (of course then the marine
      transmission's thrust bearing is redundant) -- but note that thereby, there IS still in the
      driveline, the typical "drive-plate" (with springs) between engine and marine transmission, which is
      there to absorb the high-speed torque-vibration of each cylinder's firing, to protect (yes) the
      transmission (but also) the shafting and prop -- rumor has it that without such torsion flexibility,
      the mechanicals beyond the engine can self-destruct.



      I challenge you to reverse-engineer the concept using industrial-supplyhouse pillow-block thrust
      bearing, and perhaps junkyard constant-velocity shafting from a front-wheel-drive car...  as far as
      THAT goes, I wonder if the wheel's bearing that such front-wheel drive shafting "ends" at, would be
      sufficient as the thrust-bearing? just mount the entire brake-carrier casting right to a bulkhead
      firmly installed where the shaft comes thru the bottom of the boat.....  oops, THAT car-system is
      operating at considerably lower rpm, I suspect...



      BUT if your  initial reverse-engineered design has "teething problems" like any invention...  it
      becomes a question of "what's your time worth"?   it's worth noting that Sir James Dyson built 5,127
      fully functioning prototypes of his bagless vacuum-cleaner, before he finally came up with the first
      model suitable for marketing to the masses.



      Might be far more re-assuring to just bite the financial bullet and find a proven marine
      transmission with integral thrust bearing, used and/or rebuilt.  There has been nearly a hundred
      years by now of expensive engineering and manufacturing experience....  Out here on the Salish-Sea
      end of Left Coast (Pacific NW) the true expert in marine transmissions is Mike Vogt of Harbor Marine
      in Everett, WA.... no I don't think he would take kindly to long discussions on "re-inventing" the
      marine transmission, but he's the go-to guy for supply of new/"take-out"/used marine transmissions,
      as well as parts for every known type -- and, of course, in-house repair.



      Regards,

      Wayne Gilham



      From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of farna@...
      Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 6:50 AM
      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [bolger] Inboard idea...





      I'm eventually going to build an inboard with the motor up near the front. Haven't settled on a hull
      yet, but have been thinking on the motor. It will be an automotive conversion. I've seen a couple
      with Honda car engines, and want something small similar to that, but I may have access to a 120 hp
      Mercruiser (Cold Chevy 140 cubic inch four). Don't want the in/out arrangement, straight shaft
      inboard.

      I've seen two older conversions that used an automotive transmission. One used twin sixes with
      automatic transmissions. In that one one trans was run in reverse all the time, the other always in
      first, so props were turned opposite each other. Gear reductions were close in those gears -- the
      props were custom made to make up the difference. Owner said that cruising at about 25 knots the
      throttles were perfectly aligned, slightly out at lower speeds to balance. The other used a manual
      three speed trans with a single engine. The engine was just behind the driver's seat and had a hand
      clutch arrangement with two cables. The cable were connected one to the first/reverse and one to the
      2nd/3rd shift levers. They were adjusted so that they would only shift neutral/revers and
      neutral/3rd (a manual stop to prevent 1st and 2nd operation might have been in place... he may have
      used 2nd instead of 3rd, as 3rd is 1:1).

      What I don't know is how the thrust arrangement was made. I believe the manual trans used a single
      universal joint at the trans, not sure about the autos, though they had to have some type of slip
      coupling. Shouldn't there be something on the shaft itself to handle thrust of the prop, or is it
      just right up the shaft into the transmission? Cars don't have anything, but the thrust is taken
      through the suspension, not the drive shaft/transmission/engine. I suppose I could use a pillow
      block bearing near the trans that has a thrust bearing in it...





      <*>Attachment(s) from Wayne Gilham:


      <*> 1 of 1 File(s) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/attachments/folder/1930008884/item/list
       <*> winmail.dat

      ------------------------------------

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    • Wayne Gilham
      In the very-long-ago days of direct-drive marine engines of pleasureboat size -- like the old one-lungers that typically turned 500 to max 800 rpm -- and
      Message 4 of 12 , May 9, 2012
      • 1 Attachment
      • 10 KB
      In the very-long-ago days of direct-drive marine engines of pleasureboat size -- like the old
      "one-lungers" that typically turned 500 to max 800 rpm -- and were often "direct-reversing",
      especially if a two-stroke -- the engine itself had a thrust bearing on the forward end of the
      crankshaft (transmitting thrust from crankshaft to engine-block) ... I've taken a few of these old
      engines apart, and it's often a roller thrust bearing even way back in the early 1900's -- or at
      least some mighty large-diameter thrust-washers.







      From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of farna@...
      Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 6:50 AM
      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [bolger] Inboard idea...





      I'm eventually going to build an inboard with the motor up near the front. Haven't settled on a hull
      yet, but have been thinking on the motor. It will be an automotive conversion. I've seen a couple
      with Honda car engines, and want something small similar to that, but I may have access to a 120 hp
      Mercruiser (Cold Chevy 140 cubic inch four). Don't want the in/out arrangement, straight shaft
      inboard.

      I've seen two older conversions that used an automotive transmission. One used twin sixes with
      automatic transmissions. In that one one trans was run in reverse all the time, the other always in
      first, so props were turned opposite each other. Gear reductions were close in those gears -- the
      props were custom made to make up the difference. Owner said that cruising at about 25 knots the
      throttles were perfectly aligned, slightly out at lower speeds to balance. The other used a manual
      three speed trans with a single engine. The engine was just behind the driver's seat and had a hand
      clutch arrangement with two cables. The cable were connected one to the first/reverse and one to the
      2nd/3rd shift levers. They were adjusted so that they would only shift neutral/revers and
      neutral/3rd (a manual stop to prevent 1st and 2nd operation might have been in place... he may have
      used 2nd instead of 3rd, as 3rd is 1:1).

      What I don't know is how the thrust arrangement was made. I believe the manual trans used a single
      universal joint at the trans, not sure about the autos, though they had to have some type of slip
      coupling. Shouldn't there be something on the shaft itself to handle thrust of the prop, or is it
      just right up the shaft into the transmission? Cars don't have anything, but the thrust is taken
      through the suspension, not the drive shaft/transmission/engine. I suppose I could use a pillow
      block bearing near the trans that has a thrust bearing in it...
    • Wayne Gilham
      Glen-L may have resources how to adapt an automobile engine -- seems that make-do approach is right up their alley. Check their website Regards, Wayne Gilham
      Message 5 of 12 , May 9, 2012
      • 1 Attachment
      • 4 KB
      Glen-L may have resources how to adapt an automobile engine -- seems that "make-do" approach is
      right up their alley. Check their website



      Regards,

      Wayne Gilham
    • Christopher C. Wetherill
      Barr Marine was the big player in my youth. They still exist. It appears they are concentrated on V-8, however. V/R Chris
      Message 6 of 12 , May 9, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Barr Marine was the big player in my youth.  They still exist.  It appears they are concentrated on V-8, however.

        V/R
        Chris

        On 5/9/2012 4:27 PM, Wayne Gilham wrote:
        <*>[Attachment(s) from Wayne Gilham included below]
        
        Glen-L may have resources how to adapt an automobile engine -- seems that "make-do" approach is
        right up their alley. Check their website
        
         
        
        Regards,
        
        Wayne Gilham
        
        
        
        <*>Attachment(s) from Wayne Gilham:
        
        
        <*> 1 of 1 File(s) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/attachments/folder/283075546/item/list 
          <*> winmail.dat
        
        ------------------------------------
        
        Bolger rules!!!
        - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!!  Please!
        - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
        - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts 
        - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
        - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
        - Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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      • Wayne Gilham
        There used to be an old long-skinny round-bilge boat on-the-beach here in Pacific NW (Longbranch, WA as I remember) with a heavy old striaght-six waaaaaay
        Message 7 of 12 , May 9, 2012
        • 1 Attachment
        • 9 KB
        There used to be an old long-skinny round-bilge boat on-the-beach here in Pacific NW (Longbranch, WA
        as I remember) with a heavy old striaght-six waaaaaay forward under the foredeck, perhaps to get a
        shallower shaft-exit angle... never saw it running, but I bet it really threw an arc of spray off
        that rather immersed bow....







        Wayne Gilham



        From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Gilham
        Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 1:27 PM
        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [bolger] Inboard idea... [1 Attachment]





        [Attachment(s) from Wayne Gilham included below]

        Glen-L may have resources how to adapt an automobile engine -- seems that "make-do" approach is
        right up their alley. Check their website

        Regards,

        Wayne Gilham
      • Mike Allison
        ... Glen-L has a plan for a homemade FNR setup that uses a pillowblock to support the shaft. It may give you an idea to start from. Mike Allison... (North of
        Message 8 of 12 , May 9, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          On 05/09/2012 03:27 PM, Wayne Gilham wrote:
           

          Glen-L may have resources how to adapt an automobile engine -- seems that "make-do" approach is
          right up their alley. Check their website

          Regards,

          Wayne Gilham

          Glen-L has a plan for a homemade FNR setup that uses a pillowblock to support the shaft.
          It may give you an idea to start from.


          Mike Allison... (North of Kansas City Mo. USA)

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