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MultiMonoMania Unstayed squareup[was Re: Wish2 SketchUp (was SketchUp Chebacco)]

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  • c.ruzer
    nothin holdin me back n0W WHO0 H0O! PPPPrrroouwwwwpphhhtppppblath ... Hold on. Yes and Yes. You can. Better, you can even go bi- or tri- plane ! And quick
    Message 1 of 26 , May 1 2:30 AM
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      nothin' holdin' me back n0W WHO0 H0O! PPPPrrroouwwwwpphhhtppppblath

      > Can you build a multihull without staying the rig?

      Hold on.

      Yes and Yes.

      You can. Better, you can even go bi- or tri-"plane"! And quick and easy tabernacle pivoted mast lowering for that larger boat too.

      Take a look at Bern Kohler K-design developments here's the FAQs http://www.ikarus342000.com/FAQ.htm - at page bottom. If the site is unstable for your browser then you may view it as converted to pdf http://www.web2pdfconvert.com/

      Gary Lepak built Dragon Wings http://web.archive.org/web/20030706102648/http://multihullboatbuilder.com/workshop/ThreeBoats/ThreeBoats91.html

      http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/vintage/multihulls/index.cfm

      http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/MFthT6DzgStGWoZAc-HGGQGyc5Crp-X1Kyg9XlFU9rjwgrzgg2Q\
      fQu0OA6M8QP2aJ4Dxa7E3QVTEn_BpsP-2/Dragon%20Wings%20article


      Pete Hill (Annie's ex http://www.annie-hill.blogspot.com.au/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_Hill http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T9yrQR8nl8 ) and Annie (for most of the build) built a Junk Rigged catamaran designed by Pete
      http://www.multihull.de/news/2003/juni.htm#chinamoon
      he sold that recently, went through some other boats http://www.towndock.net/shipping/2007_05_01_shiparchive.html
      and is now nearing completeion of a stretched KD860 (smaller than C M was and very nice) with modifications including tabenacled pivoting biplane Poppy junk rig.

      Yves Parlier also winged it http://www.thedailysail.com/offshore/04/47936/we-take-a-close-look-at-yves-parliers-radical-new-60ft-catamaran

      http://www.thedailysail.com/offshore/06/48896/yves-parlier-talks-to-thedailysail-about-his-plans-for-m%C3%A9diatis-r%C3%A9gion-aquitaine-a

      Pete Goss http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Goss did it fast too with Team Phillips http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Philips http://www.petegoss.com/journey-to-date-team-philips.php


      Tony Bigras designed built and extensively cruised his 16ft cat with unstayed biplane rig, Miss Cindy, and liked it
      http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/09/outings/cindy/index.htm
      http://turtleislands.net/tmc/default.html
      http://turtleislands.net/tmc/

      Thomas Firth Jones did it initially to one of his personally owned boats, the plywood version of the Tanenui he designed for Wharram, and didn't like it. Others have done it, and continue to do it to Wharram boats (a big one soon) and others, and like it. The list is long and mostly positive.


      > > I don't understand why we don't make the logical leap from these
      > > criteria - go above and beyond the conclusion of a narrow hull -
      > > wider square boat - trailered - own lifeboat- fun daysailer -
      > > unsinkable... and you end up with a multihull.

      PCB went wide, BOA that is, but narrow hulls in some sharpie catamaran designs and sketches. Trailered too, and some beaut Vee bottomed working powered catamarans. Then. ... Then there is:

      "31' Cruising Catamaran
      31'0"x16'0"x1'6"
      I made this concept study as an illustration for a British book about cruising multihull design. The wide hulls with all accommodation in the hulls, and the asymmetrical layout with most of the propulsion and control in one hull and most of the accommodation in the other, are notions I've often pushed, without arousing much interest so far. The 'back staysail' is to balance the exaggerated lee helm of a reefed staysail cat"

      This is what grabs me: Quote "_often_" unquote. I know of only two, and they both share at least another really attention grabbing thing mentioned in that Derek Harvey "Cruising Multihulls" book: less "jagged" catamaran stability curve. Oh, and mono sized docking fees...

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/messages/52816
      http://hallman.org/bolger/CruisingCat31/CruisingCat31.png
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/messages/52747?threaded=1&m=e&var=1&tidx=1
      ( square hull cat thread: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/40850 )

      "... The 'back staysail' is to balance the exaggerated lee helm of a reefed staysail cat. This rig is docile to handle though, unless sailed by a super expert, it isn't as fast as a conventional cat or sloop. For a mulithull the worthwhile virtue is that it has minimal tendency to push the bow down."

      Docile? Fine. Not as fast? Who cares, we're cruising. An unstayed pivoting tabernacled rig would be great on this boat. I feel there's a lot that could be done based on this sketched cruising cat, test what Phil was exploring and explore some further. ... Biplane rig presents itself.


      > I don't know about the 'logical leap.' A huge part of the promise
      > of Wish II is simplicity and ease. Ease of build. Ease of rig. Ease
      > of launch and sail. It's hard to set that stuff aside. And let's
      > not forget ease of pocketbook! It was conceived as an instant boat.


      There maybe advantages to 31' Cruising Catamaran over a skinnier hulled, biplaned, bi-hulled ESC... or unstayed rig on stretched ESC proa, way to go!


      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John" <oneillparker@...> wrote:
      >
      > Stefan,
      >
      > I don't know about the 'logical leap.' A huge part of the promise of Wish II is simplicity and ease. Ease of build. Ease of rig. Ease of launch and sail. It's hard to set that stuff aside. And let's not forget ease of pocketbook! It was conceived as an instant boat.
      >
      > Certainly arcing the bottom complicates the build significantly, but three hulls? Or even two? We're getting into an order of magnitude range of increased building complexity. Can you build a multihull without staying the rig? More complexity. More cost. And trailering? Now you need to fold things. Even more complexity! More cost! Where does it end!
      >
      > Keep smiling!
      >
      > John
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Topolski <public@> wrote:
      > >
      > > I don't understand why we don't make the logical leap from these criteria - go above and beyond the conclusion of a narrow hull - wider square boat - trailered - own lifeboat- fun daysailer - unsinkable... and you end up with a multihull.
      > >
      > > The first and farthest ocean going vessels - shoal draft - safer - faster - much more stable - own-life-boats... setting aside hull construction time and cost [which are not mentioned strongly in the prior post] this becomes the logical conclusion of the logic Bolger has shared with us.
      > >
      > > http://www.seaworthysolutions.net/f/Seaclipper_24_Trimaran_Study_Plans.pdf
      > >
      > > Now if you are talking looks (in the eye of the beholder) or tradition (each to his own again) that's another story. But those arguments lack logic, and the poster did not wax long about aesthetics in their post.
      > >
      > > .... i'd still rig it Bolger Chebacco style - wide and low and sticking off both ends ...
      > >
      > > All the Best,
      > > Stefan
      > >
      > > "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -anonymous
      > >
      > > Stefan Topolski MD
      > > Assist. Professor, U. of Massachusetts Medical School
      > > Clinical Instructor, U. of New England
      > > Founder and Director of
      > > Caring in Community, Inc. 501(c)3
      > > 1105 Mohawk Trail
      > > Shelburne Falls, Ma.
      > >
      > > http://www.cottagemed.org
    • Stefan Topolski
      Thank you for outlining the reasons much more clearly. Speed, ease, space, cost ... yes, yes, yes, yes. For these flatter and wider serve well. However, the
      Message 2 of 26 , May 1 11:33 AM
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        Thank you for outlining the reasons much more clearly.

        Speed, ease, space, cost ... yes, yes, yes, yes.  For these flatter and wider serve well.

        However, the earlier post and Bolger's logic also emphasized flatter, shallower, wider, higher and chined harder for sailing, seakeeping, 'unsinkablility' and ultimate safety sailing happily.

        In these regards multihulls are the logical conclusion because they achieve all of these in spades.  Rigs can be tabernacled and unstayed, amas can swing out in minutes, launching can be from a flat bed trailer, and the time-to-launch can resemble any of our craft.

        Experienced sailors who can get beyond tradition, and there are many among us here, would love to carry less maybe but go three times faster in the same wind and end up on the same beach campgrounds with extra time for another beer before sundown.

        Not that there's any rush when one sets to sea, but dancing around larger boats and outracing storms makes for more fun any day.

        Proudly and happily sailing our Chebaco again this year,
        Stefan

        "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand."    -anonymous






        Il giorno abr 29, 2012, alle ore 2:51 pm, John ha scritto:

         

        Stefan,

        I don't know about the 'logical leap.' A huge part of the promise of Wish II is simplicity and ease. Ease of build. Ease of rig. Ease of launch and sail. It's hard to set that stuff aside. And let's not forget ease of pocketbook! It was conceived as an instant boat.

        Certainly arcing the bottom complicates the build significantly, but three hulls? Or even two? We're getting into an order of magnitude range of increased building complexity. Can you build a multihull without staying the rig? More complexity. More cost. And trailering? Now you need to fold things. Even more complexity! More cost! Where does it end!

        Keep smiling!

        John

        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Topolski <public@...> wrote:
        >
        > I don't understand why we don't make the logical leap from these criteria - go above and beyond the conclusion of a narrow hull - wider square boat - trailered - own lifeboat- fun daysailer - unsinkable... and you end up with a multihull.
        >
        > The first and farthest ocean going vessels - shoal draft - safer - faster - much more stable - own-life-boats... setting aside hull construction time and cost [which are not mentioned strongly in the prior post] this becomes the logical conclusion of the logic Bolger has shared with us.
        >
        > http://www.seaworthysolutions.net/f/Seaclipper_24_Trimaran_Study_Plans.pdf
        >
        > Now if you are talking looks (in the eye of the beholder) or tradition (each to his own again) that's another story. But those arguments lack logic, and the poster did not wax long about aesthetics in their post.
        >
        > .... i'd still rig it Bolger Chebacco style - wide and low and sticking off both ends ...
        >
        > All the Best,
        > Stefan
        >
        > "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -anonymous
        >
        > Stefan Topolski MD
        > Assist. Professor, U. of Massachusetts Medical School
        > Clinical Instructor, U. of New England
        > Founder and Director of
        > Caring in Community, Inc. 501(c)3
        > 1105 Mohawk Trail
        > Shelburne Falls, Ma.
        >
        > http://www.cottagemed.org
        >
        >
        >


      • philbolger@comcast.net
        So you have your eyes on # 649 B-31 ? ... From: Stefan Topolski To: bolger@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 2:33 PM Subject: Re: [bolger] Re:
        Message 3 of 26 , May 1 11:43 AM
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          So you have your eyes on # 649 "B-31" ?
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 2:33 PM
          Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Wish2 SketchUp (was SketchUp Chebacco)

           

          Thank you for outlining the reasons much more clearly.


          Speed, ease, space, cost ... yes, yes, yes, yes.  For these flatter and wider serve well.

          However, the earlier post and Bolger's logic also emphasized flatter, shallower, wider, higher and chined harder for sailing, seakeeping, 'unsinkablility' and ultimate safety sailing happily.

          In these regards multihulls are the logical conclusion because they achieve all of these in spades.  Rigs can be tabernacled and unstayed, amas can swing out in minutes, launching can be from a flat bed trailer, and the time-to-launch can resemble any of our craft.

          Experienced sailors who can get beyond tradition, and there are many among us here, would love to carry less maybe but go three times faster in the same wind and end up on the same beach campgrounds with extra time for another beer before sundown.

          Not that there's any rush when one sets to sea, but dancing around larger boats and outracing storms makes for more fun any day.

          Proudly and happily sailing our Chebaco again this year,
          Stefan

          "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand."    -anonymous






          Il giorno abr 29, 2012, alle ore 2:51 pm, John ha scritto:

           

          Stefan,

          I don't know about the 'logical leap.' A huge part of the promise of Wish II is simplicity and ease. Ease of build. Ease of rig. Ease of launch and sail. It's hard to set that stuff aside. And let's not forget ease of pocketbook! It was conceived as an instant boat.

          Certainly arcing the bottom complicates the build significantly, but three hulls? Or even two? We're getting into an order of magnitude range of increased building complexity. Can you build a multihull without staying the rig? More complexity. More cost. And trailering? Now you need to fold things. Even more complexity! More cost! Where does it end!

          Keep smiling!

          John

          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Topolski <public@...> wrote:
          >
          > I don't understand why we don't make the logical leap from these criteria - go above and beyond the conclusion of a narrow hull - wider square boat - trailered - own lifeboat- fun daysailer - unsinkable... and you end up with a multihull.
          >
          > The first and farthest ocean going vessels - shoal draft - safer - faster - much more stable - own-life-boats... setting aside hull construction time and cost [which are not mentioned strongly in the prior post] this becomes the logical conclusion of the logic Bolger has shared with us.
          >
          > http://www.seaworthysolutions.net/f/Seaclipper_24_Trimaran_Study_Plans.pdf
          >
          > Now if you are talking looks (in the eye of the beholder) or tradition (each to his own again) that's another story. But those arguments lack logic, and the poster did not wax long about aesthetics in their post.
          >
          > .... i'd still rig it Bolger Chebacco style - wide and low and sticking off both ends ...
          >
          > All the Best,
          > Stefan
          >
          > "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -anonymous
          >
          > Stefan Topolski MD
          > Assist. Professor, U. of Massachusetts Medical School
          > Clinical Instructor, U. of New England
          > Founder and Director of
          > Caring in Community, Inc. 501(c)3
          > 1105 Mohawk Trail
          > Shelburne Falls, Ma.
          >
          > http://www.cottagemed.org
          >
          >
          >


        • daschultz8275@sbcglobal.net
          ... And if you wish to go Bolger, it is Schorpioen. Bolger s trailerable, single-hander trimaran. This design was featured in MAIB a few years ago. The hull
          Message 4 of 26 , May 2 8:50 AM
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            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Topolski <public@...> wrote:
            >
            > I don't understand why we don't make the logical leap from these
            > criteria - go above and beyond the conclusion of a narrow hull -
            >wider square boat - trailered - own lifeboat- fun daysailer -
            >unsinkable... and you end up with a multihull.


            And if you wish to go Bolger, it is Schorpioen. Bolger's trailerable, single-hander trimaran. This design was featured in MAIB a few years ago. The hull design is one of PB&F's latest. It will build fast and prove very safe, IMO.

            The outer hulls retract cleanly. It has all inside control and virtually no cockpit. Arguably the peak of 'Birdwatcher' design family. About ~30-33 feet in length, all wood/glass plus some aluminum for the sail rig, and outrigged hulls. Bolger considered it a coastal cruiser.

            I'd follow Michalak's advice and build the sail rig including the mast, and spars first, then the outrigger hardware, outrigger hulls, then the main hull. With all that stuff ready to bolt on and go sailing, the incentive to complete the project will grow.

            Don
          • philbolger@comcast.net
            Hence the reference to design #649 B-31 Schorpioen ... With the T-50 she ought to move well under power. ... From: daschultz8275@sbcglobal.net To:
            Message 5 of 26 , May 2 8:54 AM
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              Hence the reference to design #649 "B-31 Schorpioen"...  With the T-50 she ought to move well under power.
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:50 AM
              Subject: [bolger] Re: Wish2 SketchUp (was SketchUp Chebacco)

               



              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Topolski <public@...> wrote:
              >
              > I don't understand why we don't make the logical leap from these
              > criteria - go above and beyond the conclusion of a narrow hull -
              >wider square boat - trailered - own lifeboat- fun daysailer -
              >unsinkable... and you end up with a multihull.

              And if you wish to go Bolger, it is Schorpioen. Bolger's trailerable, single-hander trimaran. This design was featured in MAIB a few years ago. The hull design is one of PB&F's latest. It will build fast and prove very safe, IMO.

              The outer hulls retract cleanly. It has all inside control and virtually no cockpit. Arguably the peak of 'Birdwatcher' design family. About ~30-33 feet in length, all wood/glass plus some aluminum for the sail rig, and outrigged hulls. Bolger considered it a coastal cruiser.

              I'd follow Michalak's advice and build the sail rig including the mast, and spars first, then the outrigger hardware, outrigger hulls, then the main hull. With all that stuff ready to bolt on and go sailing, the incentive to complete the project will grow.

              Don

            • Tom Sorensen
              I ve never seen this design.  where would there be a photo or sketch? Tom ________________________________ From: philbolger@comcast.net
              Message 6 of 26 , May 2 10:39 AM
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                I've never seen this design.  where would there be a photo or sketch?

                Tom


                From: "philbolger@..." <philbolger@...>
                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2012 8:54 AM
                Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Wish2 SketchUp (was SketchUp Chebacco)

                 
                Hence the reference to design #649 "B-31 Schorpioen"...  With the T-50 she ought to move well under power.
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:50 AM
                Subject: [bolger] Re: Wish2 SketchUp (was SketchUp Chebacco)

                 


                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Topolski <public@...> wrote:
                >
                > I don't understand why we don't make the logical leap from these
                > criteria - go above and beyond the conclusion of a narrow hull -
                >wider square boat - trailered - own lifeboat- fun daysailer -
                >unsinkable... and you end up with a multihull.

                And if you wish to go Bolger, it is Schorpioen. Bolger's trailerable, single-hander trimaran. This design was featured in MAIB a few years ago. The hull design is one of PB&F's latest. It will build fast and prove very safe, IMO.

                The outer hulls retract cleanly. It has all inside control and virtually no cockpit. Arguably the peak of 'Birdwatcher' design family. About ~30-33 feet in length, all wood/glass plus some aluminum for the sail rig, and outrigged hulls. Bolger considered it a coastal cruiser.

                I'd follow Michalak's advice and build the sail rig including the mast, and spars first, then the outrigger hardware, outrigger hulls, then the main hull. With all that stuff ready to bolt on and go sailing, the incentive to complete the project will grow.

                Don



              • philbolger@comcast.net
                Across over 430 design-columns, MAIB has been the forum-of-record in which we ve shared in broad scope and much detail many of the designs, though not all.
                Message 7 of 26 , May 2 10:49 AM
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                  Across over 430 design-columns, MAIB has been the forum-of-record in which we've shared in broad scope and much detail many of the designs, though not all.
                  Until the new books and (monster-) catalogue, that is the source.
                  Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 1:39 PM
                  Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Wish2 SketchUp (was SketchUp Chebacco)

                   

                  I've never seen this design.  where would there be a photo or sketch?

                  Tom


                  From: "philbolger@..." <philbolger@...>
                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2012 8:54 AM
                  Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Wish2 SketchUp (was SketchUp Chebacco)

                   
                  Hence the reference to design #649 "B-31 Schorpioen"...  With the T-50 she ought to move well under power.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:50 AM
                  Subject: [bolger] Re: Wish2 SketchUp (was SketchUp Chebacco)

                   


                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Topolski <public@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I don't understand why we don't make the logical leap from these
                  > criteria - go above and beyond the conclusion of a narrow hull -
                  >wider square boat - trailered - own lifeboat- fun daysailer -
                  >unsinkable... and you end up with a multihull.

                  And if you wish to go Bolger, it is Schorpioen. Bolger's trailerable, single-hander trimaran. This design was featured in MAIB a few years ago. The hull design is one of PB&F's latest. It will build fast and prove very safe, IMO.

                  The outer hulls retract cleanly. It has all inside control and virtually no cockpit. Arguably the peak of 'Birdwatcher' design family. About ~30-33 feet in length, all wood/glass plus some aluminum for the sail rig, and outrigged hulls. Bolger considered it a coastal cruiser.

                  I'd follow Michalak's advice and build the sail rig including the mast, and spars first, then the outrigger hardware, outrigger hulls, then the main hull. With all that stuff ready to bolt on and go sailing, the incentive to complete the project will grow.

                  Don



                • c.ruzer
                  Shoal, and roomy below, great workshop space, low windage height, but 6:1 slenderness? on 9ft centres? at 15deg heel? ,,, but then why not indeed? The
                  Message 8 of 26 , May 2 7:46 PM
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                    Shoal, and roomy below, great workshop space, low windage height, but 6:1 slenderness? on 9ft centres? at 15deg heel? ,,, but then why not indeed? The illustration:

                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/Cruising%20Cat%20Sailboat/

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "c.ruzer" <c.ruzer@...> wrote:

                    > Then. ... Then there is:
                    >
                    > "31' Cruising Catamaran
                    > 31'0"x16'0"x1'6"
                    > I made this concept study as an illustration for a British book about cruising multihull design. The wide hulls with all accommodation in the hulls, and the asymmetrical layout with most of the propulsion and control in one hull and most of the accommodation in the other, are notions I've often pushed, without arousing much interest so far. The 'back staysail' is to balance the exaggerated lee helm of a reefed staysail cat"
                    >
                    > This is what grabs me: Quote "_often_" unquote. I know of only two, and they both share at least another really attention grabbing thing mentioned in that Derek Harvey "Cruising Multihulls" book: less "jagged" catamaran stability curve. Oh, and mono sized docking fees...
                    >
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/messages/52816
                    > http://hallman.org/bolger/CruisingCat31/CruisingCat31.png
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/messages/52747?threaded=1&m=e&var=1&tidx=1
                    > ( square hull cat thread: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/40850 )
                    >
                    > "... The 'back staysail' is to balance the exaggerated lee helm of a reefed staysail cat. This rig is docile to handle though, unless sailed by a super expert, it isn't as fast as a conventional cat or sloop. For a mulithull the worthwhile virtue is that it has minimal tendency to push the bow down."
                    >
                    > Docile? Fine. Not as fast? Who cares, we're cruising. An unstayed pivoting tabernacled rig would be great on this boat. I feel there's a lot that could be done based on this sketched cruising cat, test what Phil was exploring and explore some further. ... Biplane rig presents itself.
                  • c.ruzer
                    Here ya go, Schorpioen unstayed 31ft coastal cruising trimaran http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/4471065503/
                    Message 9 of 26 , May 4 12:11 AM
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                    • c.ruzer
                      New Newick http://talanoa.org/TDP_Development_Projects.html
                      Message 10 of 26 , May 4 2:10 AM
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                        New Newick

                        http://talanoa.org/TDP_Development_Projects.html

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "c.ruzer" <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > nothin' holdin' me back n0W WHO0 H0O! PPPPrrroouwwwwpphhhtppppblath
                        >
                        > > Can you build a multihull without staying the rig?
                        >
                        > Hold on.
                      • c.ruzer
                        http://smalltridesign.com/masts/Two-Masts-on-Multihull.html
                        Message 11 of 26 , May 11 4:50 PM
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                          http://smalltridesign.com/masts/Two-Masts-on-Multihull.html


                          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "c.ruzer" <c.ruzer@> wrote:

                          > > nothin' holdin' me back n0W WHO0 H0O! PPPPrrroouwwwwpphhhtppppblath

                          > > > Can you build a multihull without staying the rig?

                          > > Hold on.
                        • John
                          Sorry, Stefan, still can t buy your `logical leap to multihulls. First, maybe it s just me, but I don t see how logic and recreational boating go together.
                          Message 12 of 26 , May 12 12:55 PM
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                            Sorry, Stefan, still can't buy your `logical leap' to multihulls.

                            First, maybe it's just me, but I don't see how logic and recreational boating go together. Not that there's no logic in it. But it's kind of like the logic of love. At which point I could `logically' rest my case, but...

                            There's the definition thing. Logic utterly depends on strictly defined definitions. You placed some emphasis on speed in your posts, so how, for example, are we to define it? Speed downwind, or upwind? Speed in a chop, or perhaps upwind in a narrow channel? Speed around the buoys or from point to point, including shoals and low bridges? Speed from side yard on the trailer to nosed up on the beach, beer in hand? Speed in relation to LWL? Or to cost? Maybe speed means fast at impressing girls! My favorite definition of speed for a sailboat: `faster than she looks.'

                            Same with `easy.' Same with `safe.' A mother's idea of `safe' is a far cry from her teenager's idea of the same thing. And my own idea of `easy to sail,' now, is a far cry from what my idea of `easy to sail' was 30 years ago.

                            For some, yea, it seems logical to make the leap to multihulls. For me, I've sailed them. I've enjoyed them. My 'logic' is to leave them for others to love.

                            Have fun!

                            John

                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Topolski <public@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Thank you for outlining the reasons much more clearly.
                            >
                            > Speed, ease, space, cost ... yes, yes, yes, yes. For these flatter and wider serve well.
                            >
                            > However, the earlier post and Bolger's logic also emphasized flatter, shallower, wider, higher and chined harder for sailing, seakeeping, 'unsinkablility' and ultimate safety sailing happily.
                            >
                            > In these regards multihulls are the logical conclusion because they achieve all of these in spades. Rigs can be tabernacled and unstayed, amas can swing out in minutes, launching can be from a flat bed trailer, and the time-to-launch can resemble any of our craft.
                            >
                            > Experienced sailors who can get beyond tradition, and there are many among us here, would love to carry less maybe but go three times faster in the same wind and end up on the same beach campgrounds with extra time for another beer before sundown.
                            >
                            > Not that there's any rush when one sets to sea, but dancing around larger boats and outracing storms makes for more fun any day.
                            >
                            > Proudly and happily sailing our Chebaco again this year,
                            > Stefan
                            >
                            > "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -anonymous
                            >
                            >
                            > http://www.cottagemed.org
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Il giorno abr 29, 2012, alle ore 2:51 pm, John ha scritto:
                            >
                            > Stefan,
                            >
                            > I don't know about the 'logical leap.' A huge part of the promise of Wish II is simplicity and ease. Ease of build. Ease of rig. Ease of launch and sail. It's hard to set that stuff aside. And let's not forget ease of pocketbook! It was conceived as an instant boat.
                            >
                            > Certainly arcing the bottom complicates the build significantly, but three hulls? Or even two? We're getting into an order of magnitude range of increased building complexity. Can you build a multihull without staying the rig? More complexity. More cost. And trailering? Now you need to fold things. Even more complexity! More cost! Where does it end!
                            >
                            > Keep smiling!
                            >
                            > John
                            >
                            > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Topolski <public@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I don't understand why we don't make the logical leap from these criteria - go above and beyond the conclusion of a narrow hull - wider square boat - trailered - own lifeboat- fun daysailer - unsinkable... and you end up with a multihull.
                            > >
                            > > The first and farthest ocean going vessels - shoal draft - safer - faster - much more stable - own-life-boats... setting aside hull construction time and cost [which are not mentioned strongly in the prior post] this becomes the logical conclusion of the logic Bolger has shared with us.
                            > >
                            > > http://www.seaworthysolutions.net/f/Seaclipper_24_Trimaran_Study_Plans.pdf
                            > >
                            > > Now if you are talking looks (in the eye of the beholder) or tradition (each to his own again) that's another story. But those arguments lack logic, and the poster did not wax long about aesthetics in their post.
                            > >
                            > > .... i'd still rig it Bolger Chebacco style - wide and low and sticking off both ends ...
                            > >
                            > > All the Best,
                            > > Stefan
                            > >
                            > > "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -anonymous
                            > >
                            > > Stefan Topolski MD
                            > > Assist. Professor, U. of Massachusetts Medical School
                            > > Clinical Instructor, U. of New England
                            > > Founder and Director of
                            > > Caring in Community, Inc. 501(c)3
                            > > 1105 Mohawk Trail
                            > > Shelburne Falls, Ma.
                            > >
                            > > http://www.cottagemed.org
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Scot McPherson
                            My opinion is that multihulls can be loads of fun on flat water. I ll stick to monohull designs in swells though, thanks. Scot Sent from my iPhone
                            Message 13 of 26 , May 12 3:37 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              My opinion is that multihulls can be loads of fun on flat water. I'll stick to monohull designs in swells though, thanks.


                              Scot

                              Sent from my iPhone

                              On May 12, 2012, at 2:55 PM, "John" <oneillparker@...> wrote:

                               



                              Sorry, Stefan, still can't buy your `logical leap' to multihulls.

                              First, maybe it's just me, but I don't see how logic and recreational boating go together. Not that there's no logic in it. But it's kind of like the logic of love. At which point I could `logically' rest my case, but...

                              There's the definition thing. Logic utterly depends on strictly defined definitions. You placed some emphasis on speed in your posts, so how, for example, are we to define it? Speed downwind, or upwind? Speed in a chop, or perhaps upwind in a narrow channel? Speed around the buoys or from point to point, including shoals and low bridges? Speed from side yard on the trailer to nosed up on the beach, beer in hand? Speed in relation to LWL? Or to cost? Maybe speed means fast at impressing girls! My favorite definition of speed for a sailboat: `faster than she looks.'

                              Same with `easy.' Same with `safe.' A mother's idea of `safe' is a far cry from her teenager's idea of the same thing. And my own idea of `easy to sail,' now, is a far cry from what my idea of `easy to sail' was 30 years ago.

                              For some, yea, it seems logical to make the leap to multihulls. For me, I've sailed them. I've enjoyed them. My 'logic' is to leave them for others to love.

                              Have fun!

                              John

                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Topolski <public@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Thank you for outlining the reasons much more clearly.
                              >
                              > Speed, ease, space, cost ... yes, yes, yes, yes. For these flatter and wider serve well.
                              >
                              > However, the earlier post and Bolger's logic also emphasized flatter, shallower, wider, higher and chined harder for sailing, seakeeping, 'unsinkablility' and ultimate safety sailing happily.
                              >
                              > In these regards multihulls are the logical conclusion because they achieve all of these in spades. Rigs can be tabernacled and unstayed, amas can swing out in minutes, launching can be from a flat bed trailer, and the time-to-launch can resemble any of our craft.
                              >
                              > Experienced sailors who can get beyond tradition, and there are many among us here, would love to carry less maybe but go three times faster in the same wind and end up on the same beach campgrounds with extra time for another beer before sundown.
                              >
                              > Not that there's any rush when one sets to sea, but dancing around larger boats and outracing storms makes for more fun any day.
                              >
                              > Proudly and happily sailing our Chebaco again this year,
                              > Stefan
                              >
                              > "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -anonymous
                              >
                              >
                              > http://www.cottagemed.org
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Il giorno abr 29, 2012, alle ore 2:51 pm, John ha scritto:
                              >
                              > Stefan,
                              >
                              > I don't know about the 'logical leap.' A huge part of the promise of Wish II is simplicity and ease. Ease of build. Ease of rig. Ease of launch and sail. It's hard to set that stuff aside. And let's not forget ease of pocketbook! It was conceived as an instant boat.
                              >
                              > Certainly arcing the bottom complicates the build significantly, but three hulls? Or even two? We're getting into an order of magnitude range of increased building complexity. Can you build a multihull without staying the rig? More complexity. More cost. And trailering? Now you need to fold things. Even more complexity! More cost! Where does it end!
                              >
                              > Keep smiling!
                              >
                              > John
                              >
                              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Topolski <public@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I don't understand why we don't make the logical leap from these criteria - go above and beyond the conclusion of a narrow hull - wider square boat - trailered - own lifeboat- fun daysailer - unsinkable... and you end up with a multihull.
                              > >
                              > > The first and farthest ocean going vessels - shoal draft - safer - faster - much more stable - own-life-boats... setting aside hull construction time and cost [which are not mentioned strongly in the prior post] this becomes the logical conclusion of the logic Bolger has shared with us.
                              > >
                              > > http://www.seaworthysolutions.net/f/Seaclipper_24_Trimaran_Study_Plans.pdf
                              > >
                              > > Now if you are talking looks (in the eye of the beholder) or tradition (each to his own again) that's another story. But those arguments lack logic, and the poster did not wax long about aesthetics in their post.
                              > >
                              > > .... i'd still rig it Bolger Chebacco style - wide and low and sticking off both ends ...
                              > >
                              > > All the Best,
                              > > Stefan
                              > >
                              > > "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -anonymous
                              > >
                              > > Stefan Topolski MD
                              > > Assist. Professor, U. of Massachusetts Medical School
                              > > Clinical Instructor, U. of New England
                              > > Founder and Director of
                              > > Caring in Community, Inc. 501(c)3
                              > > 1105 Mohawk Trail
                              > > Shelburne Falls, Ma.
                              > >
                              > > http://www.cottagemed.org
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >

                            • Stefan Topolski
                              One of the logics our movement has pushed is toward wider beam and squarer cross sections to get shallower draft for greater speed, comfort, and ultimately
                              Message 14 of 26 , May 15 9:59 AM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                One of the logics our movement has pushed is toward wider beam and squarer cross sections to get shallower draft for greater speed, comfort, and ultimately less-sinkable safety.

                                Take Phil's sharpies and extend the beam even further to 10 or fifteen feet and what do you have?  The beam and draft of a multihull.  Cut out the hull in between the hull sides to reduce wetted surface and water pushed out of the way and what do you have?  A multihull.  A square boat of even wider beam and shallower draft minus the unneeded and speed robbing hull in between.

                                That's design logic.  Then we temper logic by personal preference for more space, faster build, simpler set up, etc.  The question becomes not one of logic but of finding joy in what we build.  We all make these compromises, but Phil really did bring monohull design as close to multihull design as possible in a way no one had before.

                                All the Best,
                                Stefan

                                "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand."    -anonymous

                                Stefan Topolski  MD
                                Assist. Professor, U. of Massachusetts Medical School
                                Clinical Instructor, U. of New England
                                Founder and Director of
                                Caring in Community, Inc.  501(c)3
                                1105 Mohawk Trail
                                Shelburne Falls, Ma.





                                Il giorno may 12, 2012, alle ore 3:55 pm, John ha scritto:

                                 



                                Sorry, Stefan, still can't buy your `logical leap' to multihulls.

                                First, maybe it's just me, but I don't see how logic and recreational boating go together. Not that there's no logic in it. But it's kind of like the logic of love. At which point I could `logically' rest my case, but...

                                There's the definition thing. Logic utterly depends on strictly defined definitions. You placed some emphasis on speed in your posts, so how, for example, are we to define it? Speed downwind, or upwind? Speed in a chop, or perhaps upwind in a narrow channel? Speed around the buoys or from point to point, including shoals and low bridges? Speed from side yard on the trailer to nosed up on the beach, beer in hand? Speed in relation to LWL? Or to cost? Maybe speed means fast at impressing girls! My favorite definition of speed for a sailboat: `faster than she looks.'

                                Same with `easy.' Same with `safe.' A mother's idea of `safe' is a far cry from her teenager's idea of the same thing. And my own idea of `easy to sail,' now, is a far cry from what my idea of `easy to sail' was 30 years ago.

                                For some, yea, it seems logical to make the leap to multihulls. For me, I've sailed them. I've enjoyed them. My 'logic' is to leave them for others to love.

                                Have fun!

                                John

                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Topolski <public@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Thank you for outlining the reasons much more clearly.
                                >
                                > Speed, ease, space, cost ... yes, yes, yes, yes. For these flatter and wider serve well.
                                >
                                > However, the earlier post and Bolger's logic also emphasized flatter, shallower, wider, higher and chined harder for sailing, seakeeping, 'unsinkablility' and ultimate safety sailing happily.
                                >
                                > In these regards multihulls are the logical conclusion because they achieve all of these in spades. Rigs can be tabernacled and unstayed, amas can swing out in minutes, launching can be from a flat bed trailer, and the time-to-launch can resemble any of our craft.
                                >
                                > Experienced sailors who can get beyond tradition, and there are many among us here, would love to carry less maybe but go three times faster in the same wind and end up on the same beach campgrounds with extra time for another beer before sundown.
                                >
                                > Not that there's any rush when one sets to sea, but dancing around larger boats and outracing storms makes for more fun any day.
                                >
                                > Proudly and happily sailing our Chebaco again this year,
                                > Stefan
                                >
                                > "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -anonymous
                                >
                                >
                                > http://www.cottagemed.org
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Il giorno abr 29, 2012, alle ore 2:51 pm, John ha scritto:
                                >
                                > Stefan,
                                >
                                > I don't know about the 'logical leap.' A huge part of the promise of Wish II is simplicity and ease. Ease of build. Ease of rig. Ease of launch and sail. It's hard to set that stuff aside. And let's not forget ease of pocketbook! It was conceived as an instant boat.
                                >
                                > Certainly arcing the bottom complicates the build significantly, but three hulls? Or even two? We're getting into an order of magnitude range of increased building complexity. Can you build a multihull without staying the rig? More complexity. More cost. And trailering? Now you need to fold things. Even more complexity! More cost! Where does it end!
                                >
                                > Keep smiling!
                                >
                                > John
                                >
                                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Topolski <public@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I don't understand why we don't make the logical leap from these criteria - go above and beyond the conclusion of a narrow hull - wider square boat - trailered - own lifeboat- fun daysailer - unsinkable... and you end up with a multihull.
                                > >
                                > > The first and farthest ocean going vessels - shoal draft - safer - faster - much more stable - own-life-boats... setting aside hull construction time and cost [which are not mentioned strongly in the prior post] this becomes the logical conclusion of the logic Bolger has shared with us.
                                > >
                                > > http://www.seaworthysolutions.net/f/Seaclipper_24_Trimaran_Study_Plans.pdf
                                > >
                                > > Now if you are talking looks (in the eye of the beholder) or tradition (each to his own again) that's another story. But those arguments lack logic, and the poster did not wax long about aesthetics in their post.
                                > >
                                > > .... i'd still rig it Bolger Chebacco style - wide and low and sticking off both ends ...
                                > >
                                > > All the Best,
                                > > Stefan
                                > >
                                > > "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand." -anonymous
                                > >
                                > > Stefan Topolski MD
                                > > Assist. Professor, U. of Massachusetts Medical School
                                > > Clinical Instructor, U. of New England
                                > > Founder and Director of
                                > > Caring in Community, Inc. 501(c)3
                                > > 1105 Mohawk Trail
                                > > Shelburne Falls, Ma.
                                > >
                                > > http://www.cottagemed.org
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >


                              • John Kohnen
                                Bolger s sharpies are actually pretty narrow, and depend on high freeboard and buoyancy up high for secondary stability. A narrow boat, even if flat-bottomed,
                                Message 15 of 26 , May 15 8:58 PM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Bolger's sharpies are actually pretty narrow, and depend on high freeboard
                                  and buoyancy up high for secondary stability. A narrow boat, even if
                                  flat-bottomed, will "give" a bit in waves -- the waterline won't quickly
                                  conform to the face of a wave, giving a more comfortable and safer ride in
                                  rough weather. This is completely opposite of the behavior of a fat
                                  flat-bottom boat, which will roll quickly to the angle of a wave, and will
                                  be more likely to be rolled over by a large wave. Multihulls are in effect
                                  very, very fat and have huge initial stability. They don't tip over
                                  easily, though the ride probably gets pretty rough, until they do...
                                  Multihulls have proven themselves seaworthy enough for most passages, so
                                  the choice between them and monohulls is largely personal preference, but
                                  Bolger's sharpies are really pretty far from multihulls and it's by no
                                  means a logical progression to get to multihulls from them.

                                  Modern ocean racers have gotten wider, shallower and squarer in section to
                                  carry lots of sail and plane along at phenomenal speeds, but this isn't a
                                  suitable trend to follow for pleasure boats, where comfort and
                                  seaworthiness should be most important. Increasing the beam of one of
                                  Bolger's sharpies would actually make it _less_ seaworthy. If one needs
                                  more room in a Bolger sharpie they should build a longer one.

                                  On Tue, 15 May 2012 09:59:43 -0700, Stefan T wrote:

                                  > One of the logics our movement has pushed is toward wider beam and
                                  > squarer cross sections to get shallower draft for greater speed,
                                  > comfort, and ultimately less-sinkable safety.

                                  > Take Phil's sharpies and extend the beam even further to 10 or fifteen
                                  > feet and what do you have? The beam and draft of a multihull....

                                  --
                                  John (jkohnen@...)
                                  A fool and his money are soon elected. (Will Rogers)
                                • Harry James
                                  Well said John HJ
                                  Message 16 of 26 , May 15 9:13 PM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Well said John

                                    HJ

                                    On 5/15/2012 7:58 PM, John Kohnen wrote:
                                    > Bolger's sharpies are actually pretty narrow, and depend on high freeboard
                                    > and buoyancy up high for secondary stability. A narrow boat, even if
                                    > flat-bottomed, will "give" a bit in waves -- the waterline won't quickly
                                    > conform to the face of a wave, giving a more comfortable and safer ride in
                                    > rough weather. This is completely opposite of the behavior of a fat
                                    > flat-bottom boat, which will roll quickly to the angle of a wave, and will
                                    > be more likely to be rolled over by a large wave. Multihulls are in effect
                                    > very, very fat and have huge initial stability. They don't tip over
                                    > easily, though the ride probably gets pretty rough, until they do...
                                    > Multihulls have proven themselves seaworthy enough for most passages, so
                                    > the choice between them and monohulls is largely personal preference, but
                                    > Bolger's sharpies are really pretty far from multihulls and it's by no
                                    > means a logical progression to get to multihulls from them.
                                    >
                                    > Modern ocean racers have gotten wider, shallower and squarer in section to
                                    > carry lots of sail and plane along at phenomenal speeds, but this isn't a
                                    > suitable trend to follow for pleasure boats, where comfort and
                                    > seaworthiness should be most important. Increasing the beam of one of
                                    > Bolger's sharpies would actually make it _less_ seaworthy. If one needs
                                    > more room in a Bolger sharpie they should build a longer one.
                                    >
                                    > On Tue, 15 May 2012 09:59:43 -0700, Stefan T wrote:
                                    >
                                    >> One of the logics our movement has pushed is toward wider beam and
                                    >> squarer cross sections to get shallower draft for greater speed,
                                    >> comfort, and ultimately less-sinkable safety.
                                    >> Take Phil's sharpies and extend the beam even further to 10 or fifteen
                                    >> feet and what do you have? The beam and draft of a multihull....
                                  • Tom Pee
                                    Good post, just want to reinforce the idea... MAKE IT LONGER if you need more room. ________________________________ From: Harry James
                                    Message 17 of 26 , May 17 8:32 AM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Good post, just want to reinforce the idea... MAKE IT LONGER if you need more room.

                                      From: Harry James <welshman@...>
                                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 12:13 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Logical leap to multihulls? (was SketchUp Chebacco)

                                       
                                      Well said John

                                      HJ

                                      On 5/15/2012 7:58 PM, John Kohnen wrote:
                                      > Bolger's sharpies are actually pretty narrow, and depend on high freeboard
                                      > and buoyancy up high for secondary stability. A narrow boat, even if
                                      > flat-bottomed, will "give" a bit in waves -- the waterline won't quickly
                                      > conform to the face of a wave, giving a more comfortable and safer ride in
                                      > rough weather. This is completely opposite of the behavior of a fat
                                      > flat-bottom boat, which will roll quickly to the angle of a wave, and will
                                      > be more likely to be rolled over by a large wave. Multihulls are in effect
                                      > very, very fat and have huge initial stability. They don't tip over
                                      > easily, though the ride probably gets pretty rough, until they do...
                                      > Multihulls have proven themselves seaworthy enough for most passages, so
                                      > the choice between them and monohulls is largely personal preference, but
                                      > Bolger's sharpies are really pretty far from multihulls and it's by no
                                      > means a logical progression to get to multihulls from them.
                                      >
                                      > Modern ocean racers have gotten wider, shallower and squarer in section to
                                      > carry lots of sail and plane along at phenomenal speeds, but this isn't a
                                      > suitable trend to follow for pleasure boats, where comfort and
                                      > seaworthiness should be most important. Increasing the beam of one of
                                      > Bolger's sharpies would actually make it _less_ seaworthy. If one needs
                                      > more room in a Bolger sharpie they should build a longer one.
                                      >
                                      > On Tue, 15 May 2012 09:59:43 -0700, Stefan T wrote:
                                      >
                                      >> One of the logics our movement has pushed is toward wider beam and
                                      >> squarer cross sections to get shallower draft for greater speed,
                                      >> comfort, and ultimately less-sinkable safety.
                                      >> Take Phil's sharpies and extend the beam even further to 10 or fifteen
                                      >> feet and what do you have? The beam and draft of a multihull....


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