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RE: [bolger] Steel Tabernacle (Black Skimmer)

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  • Wayne Gilham
    Black Skimmer design already came with a pair of 2 x2 mast-partners extending forward from the front edge of the cabin, which surround the mast when in-place.
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 26 11:15 PM
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    Black Skimmer design already came with a pair of 2"x2" mast-partners extending forward from the
    front edge of the cabin, which surround the mast when in-place. Same goes for some sort of
    structure at the base of the mast where it rests on the bottom of the boat in that forward
    cockpit-well. (tho mine was modified before I got the boat, so not quite "to plans")



    Now Phil Bolger's sketch showed a beautifully-fabricated tubular mast-collar (he assumed my mast was
    the originally-spec'd round shape), especially with a bit of a flare at the top and a tinier flare
    at the bottom, to avoid "hard-spots" that could pinch and crush the wood-fibers where the mast exits
    the collar, especially as this mast DOES bend a bit... way too complex for me to build -- but the
    sketch was the first proof to me that the mast-heel would "clear" the confines of the forward
    cockpit -- as I remember, it DID require the pivot-point to be raised a few inches off-deck for all
    this geometry to "work"



    Since our local galvanizer had a $100 minimum-charge, I hoped to find some pre-galvanized parts that
    I could adapt -- and indeed I found some L-shaped angles from trailer-parts sources, which just
    exactly provided both the wrap-around for the mast (mine was square at partners), which was held to
    mast by long hose-clamps, and also to bolt to the cabin-top. LArge but short bolts either side
    provided the pivot-pin. I have no idea whether these parts still exist. As I remember, I had to
    cut some portion of the part off, with a hack-saw, and was willing to live with any rusting that
    might occur under the paint I applied -- but the adjacent galvanizing seemed to protect the surface
    from any significant corrosion...



    Crude but effective -- worked fine for many years!





    Very hard to describe, and I'm not sure if attachments will transmit across the group-site... so I
    put some shots up in a new "album" named
    <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/2100768550/pic/list?mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1
    &dir=asc> Fabricated mast tabernacle Black Skimmer, in photos section of Yahoogroup "bolger"



    This mast was pretty darned heavy to lift-up into place even WITH such a hard-pivot-point, as the
    mast was some 35' long! (this was in fact the mast from Dr Richard Zapf's "Red Zinger", as that
    gorgeously-built tapered box-section mast and mainsail was nearly identical to the Black-Skimmer
    spec'd rig -- and I was able to buy it from Dr Zapf when he converted his boat to a tubular aluminum
    mast so he could fly spinnakers... my original mast, laminated solid from 2x6 lumber, had rotted
    completely by storing it on-ground only one off-season!)



    So I hoisted this mast into place while the boat was still on-trailer, using the trailer-winch! ..
    by extending the pull-point of that winch bow-strap way high on a 10' removable "gin-pole" that had
    a roller at its upper end... This steel pole fit into the hollow-tube that supported the
    trailer-winch, and was transported strapped to the trailer under the boat. Then the trailer-strap
    could be connected about as high as I could reach up-mast (once mast was up), and the geometry
    worked great to be able to slowly winch the mast up and into locked position. (I had a big block of
    epoxied wood that fit at mast's base, to lock the heel --which bolted in-place with big wing-nuts).
    Took two to raise the mast (one winching, the other "walking it up", but it was all controlled, with
    no panic-moments up or down...



    My apologies to the condition (as you can see in the photos) that I allowed that boat to decline to
    -- but she DID go to a good home somewhere near Spokane WA, with promises that the new owner would
    do the complete re-finish that she deserved..



    Regards,

    Wayne Gilham

    ...who also rigged very helpful "gallows" each side, to easily raise/lower the leeboards using
    multi-part block&tackle from anywhere in the cockpit --- finally allowed single-handing the boat, as
    it was no longer necessary to "stand over" the edge of the board needing to be raised (which you
    sure as heck can't do and still hold the tiller!) -- another story, another post



    From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew
    Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 2:52 PM
    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [bolger] Steel Tabernacle was: Bolger 20' - Chebacco or Long Micro?





    Wayne,

    you have got me (and maybe others) interested with your mention of a galv steel tabernacle.

    I am building a Chebacco 25 which, like the black skimmer, is designed for a mast tabernacle where
    the foot rotates through the forward anchor well area. (not sure which came first, but the designs
    in this area are very similar). I have looked at the design as per the plans as well as a few others
    (notably the Norwalk Island Sharpie which has an unstayed mast with galvanised fabricated
    tabernacle) to get some ideas for improvements.

    I would be interested in seeing any photos of the tabernacle you describe.

    Regards,

    Andrew

    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> , "Wayne Gilham" <wgilham@...>
    wrote:
    >
    > I owned a Black Skimmer for a number of years, and indeed trailered her without difficulty -
    behind
    > only a mini-van!.
    >
    >
    >
    > Some details that helped trailering:
    >
    > 1) I put that long mast into a hinged tabernacle built-up of easily-available galvanized steel
    > parts -- concept was designed by Phil Bolger -- heel of mast DOES swing easily thru the forward
    > anchoring cockpit. Details, photos and Phil's drawing available, only if you DO pursue this boat.
    >
    > 2) Mast, Boom, mizzen-mast and all the other "sticks" were easily supported by a "gallows" put
    into
    > the mizzen-mast partners, for traveling. Needs a "red flag" on the end of the mast, as it's a good
    > ten feet longer than the boat!
    >
    > 3) I built a platform on the forward part of the trailer to bolt-down the leeboards - they were
    > removed each trailering-episode from the boat so as to not strain the wings that support them.
    Took
    > only a few minutes.
    >
    > 4) trailer needs side-poles to ensure boat comes up "centered" on the trailer, as there's no
    > Vee-shape to drop boat to center when you drive her out up the ramp...
    >
    >
    >
    > The boat, of course, is highly recommended; she sails very quick! Safe, too, even with her very
    > large cockpit, as she is self-righting (from that steel internal ballast; 3 pieces of simple
    > rectangular sheet-steel for easy installation), self-bailing, and essentially unsinkable if built
    > to plan.
    >
    >
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Wayne Gilham
    >
    > who trailered my Black Skimmer 3 hours from Philadelphia area to Northern Chesapeake for my
    > weekend sailing.
    >



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  • David
    Those links refer to the far South of Chile (known as the canal zone) from Chiloe to Cape Horn
    Message 2 of 19 , Feb 27 4:36 AM
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      Those links refer to the far South of Chile (known as the canal zone) from Chiloe to Cape Horn

      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "c.ruzer" <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@> wrote:
      > > Even in bays, it is generally a steep coast so the risk of grounding is less than the risk of being smashed against rocks on the coast...
      >
      >
      > http://iron-bark.blogspot.com.au/2011/10/chile-pilotage-notes.html
      >
      > http://anniehill.blogspot.com.au/search/label/Chile
      >
    • Peter
      I ve never sailed either an LM or a Chebacco so I should probably keep right out of it, but I will note that long cruises have been made boats of both designs.
      Message 3 of 19 , Feb 27 12:59 PM
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        I've never sailed either an LM or a Chebacco so I should probably keep right out of it, but I will note that long cruises have been made boats of both designs.

        In the matter of suitability to the local conditions, I suspect that anything one can take, the other can too, but the experience may not be the same.

        LM is going to be subject to the occasional withering crash that PCB predicted for Jesse Cooper. OTOH, someone once wrote that his Chebacco loved waves.

        Chebacco has a centerboard that's deeper than LM's keel which might be helpful clawing upwind. And there are some reports of Chebacco being remarkably fast downwind. OTOH, two people cruising are going to be more comfortable in the cabin of LM.

        I've read reports that the LM rig is generous, so learn to reef. That would also suggest she's good in light air.

        As far as other PB&F designs, there is the 20' sharpie (revised version) that a man and his daughter took down the Mississippi, the very pretty triple keel sloop, etc.
      • William
        David, I built and have sailed my LM for 4+ years now. I sailed her on Lake Erie, a small lake in Texas, and on two-week long adventures on Lake Huron (in 2010
        Message 4 of 19 , Feb 27 1:49 PM
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          David,
          I built and have sailed my LM for 4+ years now. I sailed her on Lake Erie, a small lake in Texas, and on two-week long adventures on Lake Huron (in 2010 and 2011). Like you, I seriously considered a Chebacco but in the end opted for the "ugly and disposable" (*cough*) LM. I like the stability of the flat bottom, plumb sides, and the big chunk of lead in the keel. Chebacco seemed more tender with less interior space but I have never sailed on one. Chebaccos are beautiful and I'd bet on one to windward and in light airs over the LM. I mean no disrespect to my Chebacco brothers and sisters.
          1. no comment
          2. LM's don't point great but I find mine sufficient. Off the wind they fly along. Speeds of 6+ knots are regular and I have hit 8.2 knots downwind (once. But once is enough to mention it).
          3. If you build to the plans with the large, open under-cockpit space, you will have ample space to sleep two. You might fit another person under the cockpit, but it would be cramped. The cockpit seat will fit two 6'6" long people sleeping side-by-side.
          4. Six people on an LM? That's pushing things. I have had four people sailing on my LM, and we could all sit side-by-side on one side of the cockpit. Six would be crowded; doable but not optimal.
          5. I singlehand all the time. No issues. Reef, furl, anchor, motor, dock, maneuver. The mizzen is a very helpful.

          Bill, in Texas

          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
          >
          > I know this may spark some controversy, but I hope it is of the constructive kind.
          >
          > Having built Oldshoe, Reubens Nymph and Zephyr, I am now looking at building something larger (but not as large as Loose Moose II, for which I already have plans) fit for trailering, sleeping on board for short cruises, possible coastal capabilities (bearing in mind that I am talking about the Chilean coast) and generally fun and safe...
          >
          > I have, as many of us, studied all the Bolger books I possess:
          >
          > - Boats with an Open Mind
          > - Bolger Boats (Small Boats and The Floating Schooner)
          > - 30 Odd boats
          > - 103 Rigs
          >
          > as well as all the Payson books, and LF Herreshoff and H Chapelle and Pete Culler, Michalak, Atkin,... (as my wife would not hesitate to add).
          > and have looked at the designs by various people offered by different people on the internet.
          >
          > With study plans to a few hundred boats and many hours of dreaming, you may ask why I limit the choice to these two boats:
          >
          > 1) I want a 20' boat (give or take) because it is still trailerable but well out of dinghy size (less sensitive to trim).
          > 2) Speed is good enough to actually get somewhere
          > 3) Good sleeping space for 2 and possible sleeping space for 1 or 2 more if push comes to shove (and they are smallish).
          > 4) Daysailing capacity for 6 or so in protected waters (reasonable conditions)
          > 5) Possible to singlehand decently
          > 6) I like Bolger's boats, including the thought process and know for a fact that his construction guidelines work. These are two of his most tested models in the size range. [Runners up would be the Black Skimmer (too heavy and large to trailer easily), Micro (slightly too short on WL), Bolgers simplified Rozinante (too heavy and no motor), Herreshoffs Rozinante (too complicated for me at this stage and no motor and too heavy), Martha Jane (there's a lot of talk about stability issues and not too sure about leeboards, otherwise a very good candidate)]
          >
          > Appreciate comments specially from Chebacco/Long Micro owners.
          >
        • Bill Howard
          With emphasis on the 20 boat (give or take) I have just ordered plans for the Fast Motorsailer (22 7 x8 0 x9 ) (BWAOM page 324) because Phil wrote, Its my
          Message 5 of 19 , Feb 27 2:29 PM
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            With emphasis on the "20' boat (give or take)" I have just ordered plans for the Fast Motorsailer (22'7"x8'0"x9") (BWAOM page 324) because Phil wrote, "Its my belief that there has never before existed such a combination of sailing performance, power performance, usable space, lightness and compactness, and low cost."

            Have any of these boats been built to plans?

            Bill Howard
            Nellysford VA


            On Feb 27, 2012, at 4:49 PM, William wrote:


            > 1) I want a 20' boat (give or take) because it is still trailerable but well out of dinghy size (less sensitive to trim).

          • prairiedog2332
            My thinking would lead me more towards the Long Micro if dealing with a rocky coastline. First it has the ability to handle a 9.9 Yamaha high-thrust OB - Mr
            Message 6 of 19 , Feb 27 6:40 PM
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              My thinking would lead me more towards the Long Micro if dealing with a
              rocky coastline. First it has the ability to handle a 9.9 Yamaha
              high-thrust OB - Mr Bolger's favorite OB - for clawing off in a pinch.
              Not sure Chebacco could take one. Secondly it has more chance of
              self-rigthing with the lead keel under it.

              Lastly would consider the Micro Navigator mods for even more security
              for the crew.

              Nels


              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "William" <kingw@...> wrote:
              >
              > David,
              > I built and have sailed my LM for 4+ years now. I sailed her on Lake
              Erie, a small lake in Texas, and on two-week long adventures on Lake
              Huron (in 2010 and 2011). Like you, I seriously considered a Chebacco
              but in the end opted for the "ugly and disposable" (*cough*) LM. I like
              the stability of the flat bottom, plumb sides, and the big chunk of lead
              in the keel. Chebacco seemed more tender with less interior space but I
              have never sailed on one. Chebaccos are beautiful and I'd bet on one to
              windward and in light airs over the LM. I mean no disrespect to my
              Chebacco brothers and sisters.
              > 1. no comment
              > 2. LM's don't point great but I find mine sufficient. Off the wind
              they fly along. Speeds of 6+ knots are regular and I have hit 8.2 knots
              downwind (once. But once is enough to mention it).
              > 3. If you build to the plans with the large, open under-cockpit space,
              you will have ample space to sleep two. You might fit another person
              under the cockpit, but it would be cramped. The cockpit seat will fit
              two 6'6" long people sleeping side-by-side.
              > 4. Six people on an LM? That's pushing things. I have had four
              people sailing on my LM, and we could all sit side-by-side on one side
              of the cockpit. Six would be crowded; doable but not optimal.
              > 5. I singlehand all the time. No issues. Reef, furl, anchor, motor,
              dock, maneuver. The mizzen is a very helpful.
              >
              > Bill, in Texas
              >
              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" dir_cobb@ wrote:
              > >
              > > I know this may spark some controversy, but I hope it is of the
              constructive kind.
              > >
              > > Having built Oldshoe, Reubens Nymph and Zephyr, I am now looking at
              building something larger (but not as large as Loose Moose II, for which
              I already have plans) fit for trailering, sleeping on board for short
              cruises, possible coastal capabilities (bearing in mind that I am
              talking about the Chilean coast) and generally fun and safe...
              > >
              > > I have, as many of us, studied all the Bolger books I possess:
              > >
              > > - Boats with an Open Mind
              > > - Bolger Boats (Small Boats and The Floating Schooner)
              > > - 30 Odd boats
              > > - 103 Rigs
              > >
              > > as well as all the Payson books, and LF Herreshoff and H Chapelle
              and Pete Culler, Michalak, Atkin,... (as my wife would not hesitate to
              add).
              > > and have looked at the designs by various people offered by
              different people on the internet.
              > >
              > > With study plans to a few hundred boats and many hours of dreaming,
              you may ask why I limit the choice to these two boats:
              > >
              > > 1) I want a 20' boat (give or take) because it is still trailerable
              but well out of dinghy size (less sensitive to trim).
              > > 2) Speed is good enough to actually get somewhere
              > > 3) Good sleeping space for 2 and possible sleeping space for 1 or 2
              more if push comes to shove (and they are smallish).
              > > 4) Daysailing capacity for 6 or so in protected waters (reasonable
              conditions)
              > > 5) Possible to singlehand decently
              > > 6) I like Bolger's boats, including the thought process and know for
              a fact that his construction guidelines work. These are two of his most
              tested models in the size range. [Runners up would be the Black Skimmer
              (too heavy and large to trailer easily), Micro (slightly too short on
              WL), Bolgers simplified Rozinante (too heavy and no motor), Herreshoffs
              Rozinante (too complicated for me at this stage and no motor and too
              heavy), Martha Jane (there's a lot of talk about stability issues and
              not too sure about leeboards, otherwise a very good candidate)]
              > >
              > > Appreciate comments specially from Chebacco/Long Micro owners.
              > >
              >
            • Bill Howard
              New Thread: I have just bought myself a birthday present: plans for the Fast Motorsailer (22 7 x8 0 x9 ) (BWAOM page 324). Phil wrote, Its my belief that
              Message 7 of 19 , Feb 27 6:47 PM
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                New Thread:

                 I have just bought myself a birthday present:   plans for the Fast Motorsailer (22'7"x8'0"x9") (BWAOM page 324).  Phil wrote, "Its my belief that there has never before existed such a combination of sailing performance, power performance, usable space, lightness and compactness, and low cost."

                Have any of these boats been built to plans?

                Bill Howard
                Nellysford VA
              • David
                Thanks Bill Very much my own thoughts... I singlehand a lot. However, I have found that on the occasions people want to tag along it s more than fit in Oldshoe
                Message 8 of 19 , Feb 27 8:08 PM
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                  Thanks Bill

                  Very much my own thoughts... I singlehand a lot. However, I have found that on the occasions people want to tag along it's more than fit in Oldshoe (if you know what I mean). In protected waters 3 or 4 adults plus some kids is more likely. Otherwise a whole pile of kids and myself

                  For coastal sailing I tend to veer towards Long Micro. I remember reading somewhere about fitting a drop keel to improve windward ability. Does anyone have real first hand experience?

                  Very much appreciate all the feedback/thoughts.


                  David

                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "William" <kingw@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > David,
                  > I built and have sailed my LM for 4+ years now. I sailed her on Lake Erie, a small lake in Texas, and on two-week long adventures on Lake Huron (in 2010 and 2011). Like you, I seriously considered a Chebacco but in the end opted for the "ugly and disposable" (*cough*) LM. I like the stability of the flat bottom, plumb sides, and the big chunk of lead in the keel. Chebacco seemed more tender with less interior space but I have never sailed on one. Chebaccos are beautiful and I'd bet on one to windward and in light airs over the LM. I mean no disrespect to my Chebacco brothers and sisters.
                  > 1. no comment
                  > 2. LM's don't point great but I find mine sufficient. Off the wind they fly along. Speeds of 6+ knots are regular and I have hit 8.2 knots downwind (once. But once is enough to mention it).
                  > 3. If you build to the plans with the large, open under-cockpit space, you will have ample space to sleep two. You might fit another person under the cockpit, but it would be cramped. The cockpit seat will fit two 6'6" long people sleeping side-by-side.
                  > 4. Six people on an LM? That's pushing things. I have had four people sailing on my LM, and we could all sit side-by-side on one side of the cockpit. Six would be crowded; doable but not optimal.
                  > 5. I singlehand all the time. No issues. Reef, furl, anchor, motor, dock, maneuver. The mizzen is a very helpful.
                  >
                  > Bill, in Texas
                  >
                  > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I know this may spark some controversy, but I hope it is of the constructive kind.
                  > >
                  > > Having built Oldshoe, Reubens Nymph and Zephyr, I am now looking at building something larger (but not as large as Loose Moose II, for which I already have plans) fit for trailering, sleeping on board for short cruises, possible coastal capabilities (bearing in mind that I am talking about the Chilean coast) and generally fun and safe...
                  > >
                  > > I have, as many of us, studied all the Bolger books I possess:
                  > >
                  > > - Boats with an Open Mind
                  > > - Bolger Boats (Small Boats and The Floating Schooner)
                  > > - 30 Odd boats
                  > > - 103 Rigs
                  > >
                  > > as well as all the Payson books, and LF Herreshoff and H Chapelle and Pete Culler, Michalak, Atkin,... (as my wife would not hesitate to add).
                  > > and have looked at the designs by various people offered by different people on the internet.
                  > >
                  > > With study plans to a few hundred boats and many hours of dreaming, you may ask why I limit the choice to these two boats:
                  > >
                  > > 1) I want a 20' boat (give or take) because it is still trailerable but well out of dinghy size (less sensitive to trim).
                  > > 2) Speed is good enough to actually get somewhere
                  > > 3) Good sleeping space for 2 and possible sleeping space for 1 or 2 more if push comes to shove (and they are smallish).
                  > > 4) Daysailing capacity for 6 or so in protected waters (reasonable conditions)
                  > > 5) Possible to singlehand decently
                  > > 6) I like Bolger's boats, including the thought process and know for a fact that his construction guidelines work. These are two of his most tested models in the size range. [Runners up would be the Black Skimmer (too heavy and large to trailer easily), Micro (slightly too short on WL), Bolgers simplified Rozinante (too heavy and no motor), Herreshoffs Rozinante (too complicated for me at this stage and no motor and too heavy), Martha Jane (there's a lot of talk about stability issues and not too sure about leeboards, otherwise a very good candidate)]
                  > >
                  > > Appreciate comments specially from Chebacco/Long Micro owners.
                  > >
                  >
                • Harry James
                  If you look at the last video I put up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ_qk2MNsuI you can see that the Micro holds its own off the wind with the Chebacco in
                  Message 9 of 19 , Feb 27 8:30 PM
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                    If you look at the last video I put up

                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ_qk2MNsuI

                    you can see that the Micro holds its own off the wind with the Chebacco
                    in smooth water.

                    HJ

                    On 2/27/2012 11:59 AM, Peter wrote:
                    > I've never sailed either an LM or a Chebacco so I should probably keep right out of it, but I will note that long cruises have been made boats of both designs.
                    >
                    > In the matter of suitability to the local conditions, I suspect that anything one can take, the other can too, but the experience may not be the same.
                    >
                    > LM is going to be subject to the occasional withering crash that PCB predicted for Jesse Cooper. OTOH, someone once wrote that his Chebacco loved waves.
                    >
                    > Chebacco has a centerboard that's deeper than LM's keel which might be helpful clawing upwind. And there are some reports of Chebacco being remarkably fast downwind. OTOH, two people cruising are going to be more comfortable in the cabin of LM.
                    >
                    > I've read reports that the LM rig is generous, so learn to reef. That would also suggest she's good in light air.
                    >
                    > As far as other PB&F designs, there is the 20' sharpie (revised version) that a man and his daughter took down the Mississippi, the very pretty triple keel sloop, etc.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Bolger rules!!!
                    > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                    > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                    > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                    > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                    > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                    > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • prairiedog2332
                    To add to the choices, there is a raised shelter house version of Chebacco and an off-shore version with a pilothouse and then also the 25 foot clinker hull if
                    Message 10 of 19 , Feb 28 2:47 AM
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                      To add to the choices, there is a raised shelter house version of
                      Chebacco and an off-shore version with a pilothouse and then also the 25
                      foot clinker hull if you want more space for passengers.

                      Bolger wrote about the later:.. `the longer length lets her go faster in
                      a good breeze or under power. She planes cleanly with a 15-h.p. motor at
                      low cruising r.p.m. (BWAOM Page 229)`

                      I look forward to seeing sailing photos of the one that is being built,
                      and how the Solent lug main does, if indeed that is what the builder
                      goes with.

                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Thanks Bill
                      >
                      > Very much my own thoughts... I singlehand a lot. However, I have found
                      that on the occasions people want to tag along it's more than fit in
                      Oldshoe (if you know what I mean). In protected waters 3 or 4 adults
                      plus some kids is more likely. Otherwise a whole pile of kids and myself
                      >
                      > For coastal sailing I tend to veer towards Long Micro. I remember
                      reading somewhere about fitting a drop keel to improve windward ability.
                      Does anyone have real first hand experience?
                      >
                      > Very much appreciate all the feedback/thoughts.
                      >
                      >
                      > David
                      >
                      > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "William" kingw@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > David,
                      > > I built and have sailed my LM for 4+ years now. I sailed her on Lake
                      Erie, a small lake in Texas, and on two-week long adventures on Lake
                      Huron (in 2010 and 2011). Like you, I seriously considered a Chebacco
                      but in the end opted for the "ugly and disposable" (*cough*) LM. I like
                      the stability of the flat bottom, plumb sides, and the big chunk of lead
                      in the keel. Chebacco seemed more tender with less interior space but I
                      have never sailed on one. Chebaccos are beautiful and I'd bet on one to
                      windward and in light airs over the LM. I mean no disrespect to my
                      Chebacco brothers and sisters.
                      > > 1. no comment
                      > > 2. LM's don't point great but I find mine sufficient. Off the wind
                      they fly along. Speeds of 6+ knots are regular and I have hit 8.2 knots
                      downwind (once. But once is enough to mention it).
                      > > 3. If you build to the plans with the large, open under-cockpit
                      space, you will have ample space to sleep two. You might fit another
                      person under the cockpit, but it would be cramped. The cockpit seat will
                      fit two 6'6" long people sleeping side-by-side.
                      > > 4. Six people on an LM? That's pushing things. I have had four
                      people sailing on my LM, and we could all sit side-by-side on one side
                      of the cockpit. Six would be crowded; doable but not optimal.
                      > > 5. I singlehand all the time. No issues. Reef, furl, anchor, motor,
                      dock, maneuver. The mizzen is a very helpful.
                      > >
                      > > Bill, in Texas
                      > >
                      > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I know this may spark some controversy, but I hope it is of the
                      constructive kind.
                      > > >
                      > > > Having built Oldshoe, Reubens Nymph and Zephyr, I am now looking
                      at building something larger (but not as large as Loose Moose II, for
                      which I already have plans) fit for trailering, sleeping on board for
                      short cruises, possible coastal capabilities (bearing in mind that I am
                      talking about the Chilean coast) and generally fun and safe...
                      > > >
                      > > > I have, as many of us, studied all the Bolger books I possess:
                      > > >
                      > > > - Boats with an Open Mind
                      > > > - Bolger Boats (Small Boats and The Floating Schooner)
                      > > > - 30 Odd boats
                      > > > - 103 Rigs
                      > > >
                      > > > as well as all the Payson books, and LF Herreshoff and H Chapelle
                      and Pete Culler, Michalak, Atkin,... (as my wife would not hesitate to
                      add).
                      > > > and have looked at the designs by various people offered by
                      different people on the internet.
                      > > >
                      > > > With study plans to a few hundred boats and many hours of
                      dreaming, you may ask why I limit the choice to these two boats:
                      > > >
                      > > > 1) I want a 20' boat (give or take) because it is still
                      trailerable but well out of dinghy size (less sensitive to trim).
                      > > > 2) Speed is good enough to actually get somewhere
                      > > > 3) Good sleeping space for 2 and possible sleeping space for 1 or
                      2 more if push comes to shove (and they are smallish).
                      > > > 4) Daysailing capacity for 6 or so in protected waters (reasonable
                      conditions)
                      > > > 5) Possible to singlehand decently
                      > > > 6) I like Bolger's boats, including the thought process and know
                      for a fact that his construction guidelines work. These are two of his
                      most tested models in the size range. [Runners up would be the Black
                      Skimmer (too heavy and large to trailer easily), Micro (slightly too
                      short on WL), Bolgers simplified Rozinante (too heavy and no motor),
                      Herreshoffs Rozinante (too complicated for me at this stage and no motor
                      and too heavy), Martha Jane (there's a lot of talk about stability
                      issues and not too sure about leeboards, otherwise a very good
                      candidate)]
                      > > >
                      > > > Appreciate comments specially from Chebacco/Long Micro owners.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
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