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RE: [bolger] Bolger 20' - Chebacco or Long Micro?

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  • Wayne Gilham
    I owned a Black Skimmer for a number of years, and indeed trailered her without difficulty - behind only a mini-van!. Some details that helped trailering: 1)
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 24, 2012
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    I owned a Black Skimmer for a number of years, and indeed trailered her without difficulty - behind
    only a mini-van!.



    Some details that helped trailering:

    1) I put that long mast into a hinged tabernacle built-up of easily-available galvanized steel
    parts -- concept was designed by Phil Bolger -- heel of mast DOES swing easily thru the forward
    anchoring cockpit. Details, photos and Phil's drawing available, only if you DO pursue this boat.

    2) Mast, Boom, mizzen-mast and all the other "sticks" were easily supported by a "gallows" put into
    the mizzen-mast partners, for traveling. Needs a "red flag" on the end of the mast, as it's a good
    ten feet longer than the boat!

    3) I built a platform on the forward part of the trailer to bolt-down the leeboards - they were
    removed each trailering-episode from the boat so as to not strain the wings that support them. Took
    only a few minutes.

    4) trailer needs side-poles to ensure boat comes up "centered" on the trailer, as there's no
    Vee-shape to drop boat to center when you drive her out up the ramp...



    The boat, of course, is highly recommended; she sails very quick! Safe, too, even with her very
    large cockpit, as she is self-righting (from that steel internal ballast; 3 pieces of simple
    rectangular sheet-steel for easy installation), self-bailing, and essentially unsinkable if built
    to plan.



    Regards,

    Wayne Gilham

    who trailered my Black Skimmer 3 hours from Philadelphia area to Northern Chesapeake for my
    weekend sailing.







    From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
    Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:32 AM
    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [bolger] Bolger 20' - Chebacco or Long Micro?





    I know this may spark some controversy, but I hope it is of the constructive kind.

    Having built Oldshoe, Reubens Nymph and Zephyr, I am now looking at building something larger (but
    not as large as Loose Moose II, for which I already have plans) fit for trailering, sleeping on
    board for short cruises, possible coastal capabilities (bearing in mind that I am talking about the
    Chilean coast) and generally fun and safe...

    I have, as many of us, studied all the Bolger books I possess:

    - Boats with an Open Mind
    - Bolger Boats (Small Boats and The Floating Schooner)
    - 30 Odd boats
    - 103 Rigs

    as well as all the Payson books, and LF Herreshoff and H Chapelle and Pete Culler, Michalak,
    Atkin,... (as my wife would not hesitate to add).
    and have looked at the designs by various people offered by different people on the internet.

    With study plans to a few hundred boats and many hours of dreaming, you may ask why I limit the
    choice to these two boats:

    1) I want a 20' boat (give or take) because it is still trailerable but well out of dinghy size
    (less sensitive to trim).
    2) Speed is good enough to actually get somewhere
    3) Good sleeping space for 2 and possible sleeping space for 1 or 2 more if push comes to shove (and
    they are smallish).
    4) Daysailing capacity for 6 or so in protected waters (reasonable conditions)
    5) Possible to singlehand decently
    6) I like Bolger's boats, including the thought process and know for a fact that his construction
    guidelines work. These are two of his most tested models in the size range. [Runners up would be the
    Black Skimmer (too heavy and large to trailer easily), Micro (slightly too short on WL), Bolgers
    simplified Rozinante (too heavy and no motor), Herreshoffs Rozinante (too complicated for me at this
    stage and no motor and too heavy), Martha Jane (there's a lot of talk about stability issues and not
    too sure about leeboards, otherwise a very good candidate)]

    Appreciate comments specially from Chebacco/Long Micro owners.



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  • c.ruzer
    ... http://iron-bark.blogspot.com.au/2011/10/chile-pilotage-notes.html http://anniehill.blogspot.com.au/search/label/Chile
    Message 2 of 19 , Feb 25, 2012
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      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
      > Even in bays, it is generally a steep coast so the risk of grounding is less than the risk of being smashed against rocks on the coast...


      http://iron-bark.blogspot.com.au/2011/10/chile-pilotage-notes.html

      http://anniehill.blogspot.com.au/search/label/Chile
    • Jamie
      David, A Chebacco meets your requirements 1, 2 and 5, and can, with a little extra effort, meet 3, 4 and 6. For #3, it will sleep two large adults in the cabin
      Message 3 of 19 , Feb 25, 2012
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        David,

        A Chebacco meets your requirements 1, 2 and 5, and can, with a little extra effort, meet 3, 4 and 6.

        For #3, it will sleep two large adults in the cabin but carrying cruising gear you'll have to put some of it in the cockpit to make space. To sleep 3 or 4 you'll want a boom tent, this is a big plus even when cruising single-handed. I've slept up to four aboard quite comfortably with this. To see how we leveled the cockpit for sleeping go to www.chebacco.com and click on issue 1; to see WL's boom tent go to http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/articles/broken/index.htm

        For # 4, six is a lot of bodies when sailing with any kind of wind. However, there is enough seating and you could motor home if necessary. If winds of more than, say, 12 knots are expected I don't want more than three in the cockpit - four in a pinch.

        For #6, Bolger did not provide building guidelines for the Chebacco. As he pointed out when I bought my plans, he originally drew the design for a professional who knew what to do. Bolger recommended following Payson's "Build the New Instant Boats" - that with some thought will see you through. Also, Bill Samson posted his guidelines in Chebacco News, and these along with all of the old Chebacco News are on the www.chebacco.com website. I believe they are also provided in Harold Payson's last book.

        As far as cruising in Chile, all I know is from my reading which highlighted some very strong winds in some areas. I'm sure there are adequately sheltered waters too, but you might want to research your proposed cruising grounds. The big cockpit (6'x7') and lack of ballast could be liabilities in really bad conditions. (I doubt if Long Micro would fare very well in those conditions either - my opinion only.)

        So overall, Chebacco would be a great choice as long as you pick your cruising grounds and/or your weather with care. I cruise in sheltered waters on the BC coast, mostly inside Vancouver Island , and love the boat.

        Jamie


        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
        >
        > I know this may spark some controversy, but I hope it is of the constructive kind.
        >
        > Having built Oldshoe, Reubens Nymph and Zephyr, I am now looking at building something larger (but not as large as Loose Moose II, for which I already have plans) fit for trailering, sleeping on board for short cruises, possible coastal capabilities (bearing in mind that I am talking about the Chilean coast) and generally fun and safe...
        >
        > I have, as many of us, studied all the Bolger books I possess:
        >
        > - Boats with an Open Mind
        > - Bolger Boats (Small Boats and The Floating Schooner)
        > - 30 Odd boats
        > - 103 Rigs
        >
        > as well as all the Payson books, and LF Herreshoff and H Chapelle and Pete Culler, Michalak, Atkin,... (as my wife would not hesitate to add).
        > and have looked at the designs by various people offered by different people on the internet.
        >
        > With study plans to a few hundred boats and many hours of dreaming, you may ask why I limit the choice to these two boats:
        >
        > 1) I want a 20' boat (give or take) because it is still trailerable but well out of dinghy size (less sensitive to trim).
        > 2) Speed is good enough to actually get somewhere
        > 3) Good sleeping space for 2 and possible sleeping space for 1 or 2 more3 if push comes to shove (and they are smallish).
        > 4) Daysailing capacity for 6 or so in protected waters (reasonable conditions)
        > 5) Possible to singlehand decently
        > 6) I like Bolger's boats, including the thought process and know for a fact that his construction guidelines work. These are two of his most tested models in the size range. [Runners up would be the Black Skimmer (too heavy and large to trailer easily), Micro (slightly too short on WL), Bolgers simplified Rozinante (too heavy and no motor), Herreshoffs Rozinante (too complicated for me at this stage and no motor and too heavy), Martha Jane (there's a lot of talk about stability issues and not too sure about leeboards, otherwise a very good candidate)]
        >
        > Appreciate comments specially from Chebacco/Long Micro owners.
        >
      • daschultz2000
        ... ...Martha Jane (there s a lot of talk about stability issues and not too sure about leeboards, otherwise a very good candidate).... The mods to MJ
        Message 4 of 19 , Feb 26, 2012
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          "> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@> wrote:
          > >
          ...Martha Jane (there's a lot of talk about stability issues and not too sure about leeboards, otherwise a very good candidate)...."

          The mods to MJ including the sponsons and the house resolve knock down recovery problems for the design without hurting other attributes. One could build with flat steel shoe on the bottom plus some internal steel or lead ballast replacing the water ballast, and gaining internal storage space. This does impact trailering since it then must be towed w' the boat, not drained and left behind.

          If I built an MJ, I would hang the rudder or rudders off the stern to simplify construction. I'd do Michalak style kick up rudders.
        • Andrew
          Wayne, you have got me (and maybe others) interested with your mention of a galv steel tabernacle. I am building a Chebacco 25 which, like the black skimmer,
          Message 5 of 19 , Feb 26, 2012
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            Wayne,

            you have got me (and maybe others) interested with your mention of a galv steel tabernacle.

            I am building a Chebacco 25 which, like the black skimmer, is designed for a mast tabernacle where the foot rotates through the forward anchor well area. (not sure which came first, but the designs in this area are very similar). I have looked at the design as per the plans as well as a few others (notably the Norwalk Island Sharpie which has an unstayed mast with galvanised fabricated tabernacle) to get some ideas for improvements.

            I would be interested in seeing any photos of the tabernacle you describe.

            Regards,

            Andrew


            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne Gilham" <wgilham@...> wrote:
            >
            > I owned a Black Skimmer for a number of years, and indeed trailered her without difficulty - behind
            > only a mini-van!.
            >
            >
            >
            > Some details that helped trailering:
            >
            > 1) I put that long mast into a hinged tabernacle built-up of easily-available galvanized steel
            > parts -- concept was designed by Phil Bolger -- heel of mast DOES swing easily thru the forward
            > anchoring cockpit. Details, photos and Phil's drawing available, only if you DO pursue this boat.
            >
            > 2) Mast, Boom, mizzen-mast and all the other "sticks" were easily supported by a "gallows" put into
            > the mizzen-mast partners, for traveling. Needs a "red flag" on the end of the mast, as it's a good
            > ten feet longer than the boat!
            >
            > 3) I built a platform on the forward part of the trailer to bolt-down the leeboards - they were
            > removed each trailering-episode from the boat so as to not strain the wings that support them. Took
            > only a few minutes.
            >
            > 4) trailer needs side-poles to ensure boat comes up "centered" on the trailer, as there's no
            > Vee-shape to drop boat to center when you drive her out up the ramp...
            >
            >
            >
            > The boat, of course, is highly recommended; she sails very quick! Safe, too, even with her very
            > large cockpit, as she is self-righting (from that steel internal ballast; 3 pieces of simple
            > rectangular sheet-steel for easy installation), self-bailing, and essentially unsinkable if built
            > to plan.
            >
            >
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            > Wayne Gilham
            >
            > who trailered my Black Skimmer 3 hours from Philadelphia area to Northern Chesapeake for my
            > weekend sailing.
            >
          • Andrew
            David, the chebacco #540RD offers higher freeboard and hence safety, more internal storage spaces and options and a comprehensive building key which is well
            Message 6 of 19 , Feb 26, 2012
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              David,

              the chebacco #540RD offers higher freeboard and hence safety, more internal storage spaces and options and a comprehensive building key which is well thought out. You can find more details if you search the Chebacco.com site. The RD plans are only available from Susanne.

              Andrew

              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie" <jas_orr@...> wrote:
              >
              > David,
              >
              > A Chebacco meets your requirements 1, 2 and 5, and can, with a little extra effort, meet 3, 4 and 6.
              >
              > For #3, it will sleep two large adults in the cabin but carrying cruising gear you'll have to put some of it in the cockpit to make space. To sleep 3 or 4 you'll want a boom tent, this is a big plus even when cruising single-handed. I've slept up to four aboard quite comfortably with this. To see how we leveled the cockpit for sleeping go to www.chebacco.com and click on issue 1; to see WL's boom tent go to http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/articles/broken/index.htm
              >
              > For # 4, six is a lot of bodies when sailing with any kind of wind. However, there is enough seating and you could motor home if necessary. If winds of more than, say, 12 knots are expected I don't want more than three in the cockpit - four in a pinch.
              >
              > For #6, Bolger did not provide building guidelines for the Chebacco. As he pointed out when I bought my plans, he originally drew the design for a professional who knew what to do. Bolger recommended following Payson's "Build the New Instant Boats" - that with some thought will see you through. Also, Bill Samson posted his guidelines in Chebacco News, and these along with all of the old Chebacco News are on the www.chebacco.com website. I believe they are also provided in Harold Payson's last book.
              >
              > As far as cruising in Chile, all I know is from my reading which highlighted some very strong winds in some areas. I'm sure there are adequately sheltered waters too, but you might want to research your proposed cruising grounds. The big cockpit (6'x7') and lack of ballast could be liabilities in really bad conditions. (I doubt if Long Micro would fare very well in those conditions either - my opinion only.)
              >
              > So overall, Chebacco would be a great choice as long as you pick your cruising grounds and/or your weather with care. I cruise in sheltered waters on the BC coast, mostly inside Vancouver Island , and love the boat.
              >
              > Jamie
              >
            • Wayne Gilham
              Black Skimmer design already came with a pair of 2 x2 mast-partners extending forward from the front edge of the cabin, which surround the mast when in-place.
              Message 7 of 19 , Feb 26, 2012
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              Black Skimmer design already came with a pair of 2"x2" mast-partners extending forward from the
              front edge of the cabin, which surround the mast when in-place. Same goes for some sort of
              structure at the base of the mast where it rests on the bottom of the boat in that forward
              cockpit-well. (tho mine was modified before I got the boat, so not quite "to plans")



              Now Phil Bolger's sketch showed a beautifully-fabricated tubular mast-collar (he assumed my mast was
              the originally-spec'd round shape), especially with a bit of a flare at the top and a tinier flare
              at the bottom, to avoid "hard-spots" that could pinch and crush the wood-fibers where the mast exits
              the collar, especially as this mast DOES bend a bit... way too complex for me to build -- but the
              sketch was the first proof to me that the mast-heel would "clear" the confines of the forward
              cockpit -- as I remember, it DID require the pivot-point to be raised a few inches off-deck for all
              this geometry to "work"



              Since our local galvanizer had a $100 minimum-charge, I hoped to find some pre-galvanized parts that
              I could adapt -- and indeed I found some L-shaped angles from trailer-parts sources, which just
              exactly provided both the wrap-around for the mast (mine was square at partners), which was held to
              mast by long hose-clamps, and also to bolt to the cabin-top. LArge but short bolts either side
              provided the pivot-pin. I have no idea whether these parts still exist. As I remember, I had to
              cut some portion of the part off, with a hack-saw, and was willing to live with any rusting that
              might occur under the paint I applied -- but the adjacent galvanizing seemed to protect the surface
              from any significant corrosion...



              Crude but effective -- worked fine for many years!





              Very hard to describe, and I'm not sure if attachments will transmit across the group-site... so I
              put some shots up in a new "album" named
              <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/2100768550/pic/list?mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1
              &dir=asc> Fabricated mast tabernacle Black Skimmer, in photos section of Yahoogroup "bolger"



              This mast was pretty darned heavy to lift-up into place even WITH such a hard-pivot-point, as the
              mast was some 35' long! (this was in fact the mast from Dr Richard Zapf's "Red Zinger", as that
              gorgeously-built tapered box-section mast and mainsail was nearly identical to the Black-Skimmer
              spec'd rig -- and I was able to buy it from Dr Zapf when he converted his boat to a tubular aluminum
              mast so he could fly spinnakers... my original mast, laminated solid from 2x6 lumber, had rotted
              completely by storing it on-ground only one off-season!)



              So I hoisted this mast into place while the boat was still on-trailer, using the trailer-winch! ..
              by extending the pull-point of that winch bow-strap way high on a 10' removable "gin-pole" that had
              a roller at its upper end... This steel pole fit into the hollow-tube that supported the
              trailer-winch, and was transported strapped to the trailer under the boat. Then the trailer-strap
              could be connected about as high as I could reach up-mast (once mast was up), and the geometry
              worked great to be able to slowly winch the mast up and into locked position. (I had a big block of
              epoxied wood that fit at mast's base, to lock the heel --which bolted in-place with big wing-nuts).
              Took two to raise the mast (one winching, the other "walking it up", but it was all controlled, with
              no panic-moments up or down...



              My apologies to the condition (as you can see in the photos) that I allowed that boat to decline to
              -- but she DID go to a good home somewhere near Spokane WA, with promises that the new owner would
              do the complete re-finish that she deserved..



              Regards,

              Wayne Gilham

              ...who also rigged very helpful "gallows" each side, to easily raise/lower the leeboards using
              multi-part block&tackle from anywhere in the cockpit --- finally allowed single-handing the boat, as
              it was no longer necessary to "stand over" the edge of the board needing to be raised (which you
              sure as heck can't do and still hold the tiller!) -- another story, another post



              From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew
              Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 2:52 PM
              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [bolger] Steel Tabernacle was: Bolger 20' - Chebacco or Long Micro?





              Wayne,

              you have got me (and maybe others) interested with your mention of a galv steel tabernacle.

              I am building a Chebacco 25 which, like the black skimmer, is designed for a mast tabernacle where
              the foot rotates through the forward anchor well area. (not sure which came first, but the designs
              in this area are very similar). I have looked at the design as per the plans as well as a few others
              (notably the Norwalk Island Sharpie which has an unstayed mast with galvanised fabricated
              tabernacle) to get some ideas for improvements.

              I would be interested in seeing any photos of the tabernacle you describe.

              Regards,

              Andrew

              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> , "Wayne Gilham" <wgilham@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > I owned a Black Skimmer for a number of years, and indeed trailered her without difficulty -
              behind
              > only a mini-van!.
              >
              >
              >
              > Some details that helped trailering:
              >
              > 1) I put that long mast into a hinged tabernacle built-up of easily-available galvanized steel
              > parts -- concept was designed by Phil Bolger -- heel of mast DOES swing easily thru the forward
              > anchoring cockpit. Details, photos and Phil's drawing available, only if you DO pursue this boat.
              >
              > 2) Mast, Boom, mizzen-mast and all the other "sticks" were easily supported by a "gallows" put
              into
              > the mizzen-mast partners, for traveling. Needs a "red flag" on the end of the mast, as it's a good
              > ten feet longer than the boat!
              >
              > 3) I built a platform on the forward part of the trailer to bolt-down the leeboards - they were
              > removed each trailering-episode from the boat so as to not strain the wings that support them.
              Took
              > only a few minutes.
              >
              > 4) trailer needs side-poles to ensure boat comes up "centered" on the trailer, as there's no
              > Vee-shape to drop boat to center when you drive her out up the ramp...
              >
              >
              >
              > The boat, of course, is highly recommended; she sails very quick! Safe, too, even with her very
              > large cockpit, as she is self-righting (from that steel internal ballast; 3 pieces of simple
              > rectangular sheet-steel for easy installation), self-bailing, and essentially unsinkable if built
              > to plan.
              >
              >
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Wayne Gilham
              >
              > who trailered my Black Skimmer 3 hours from Philadelphia area to Northern Chesapeake for my
              > weekend sailing.
              >



              No virus found in this message.
              Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4833 - Release Date: 02/26/12
            • David
              Those links refer to the far South of Chile (known as the canal zone) from Chiloe to Cape Horn
              Message 8 of 19 , Feb 27, 2012
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                Those links refer to the far South of Chile (known as the canal zone) from Chiloe to Cape Horn

                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "c.ruzer" <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@> wrote:
                > > Even in bays, it is generally a steep coast so the risk of grounding is less than the risk of being smashed against rocks on the coast...
                >
                >
                > http://iron-bark.blogspot.com.au/2011/10/chile-pilotage-notes.html
                >
                > http://anniehill.blogspot.com.au/search/label/Chile
                >
              • Peter
                I ve never sailed either an LM or a Chebacco so I should probably keep right out of it, but I will note that long cruises have been made boats of both designs.
                Message 9 of 19 , Feb 27, 2012
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                  I've never sailed either an LM or a Chebacco so I should probably keep right out of it, but I will note that long cruises have been made boats of both designs.

                  In the matter of suitability to the local conditions, I suspect that anything one can take, the other can too, but the experience may not be the same.

                  LM is going to be subject to the occasional withering crash that PCB predicted for Jesse Cooper. OTOH, someone once wrote that his Chebacco loved waves.

                  Chebacco has a centerboard that's deeper than LM's keel which might be helpful clawing upwind. And there are some reports of Chebacco being remarkably fast downwind. OTOH, two people cruising are going to be more comfortable in the cabin of LM.

                  I've read reports that the LM rig is generous, so learn to reef. That would also suggest she's good in light air.

                  As far as other PB&F designs, there is the 20' sharpie (revised version) that a man and his daughter took down the Mississippi, the very pretty triple keel sloop, etc.
                • William
                  David, I built and have sailed my LM for 4+ years now. I sailed her on Lake Erie, a small lake in Texas, and on two-week long adventures on Lake Huron (in 2010
                  Message 10 of 19 , Feb 27, 2012
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                    David,
                    I built and have sailed my LM for 4+ years now. I sailed her on Lake Erie, a small lake in Texas, and on two-week long adventures on Lake Huron (in 2010 and 2011). Like you, I seriously considered a Chebacco but in the end opted for the "ugly and disposable" (*cough*) LM. I like the stability of the flat bottom, plumb sides, and the big chunk of lead in the keel. Chebacco seemed more tender with less interior space but I have never sailed on one. Chebaccos are beautiful and I'd bet on one to windward and in light airs over the LM. I mean no disrespect to my Chebacco brothers and sisters.
                    1. no comment
                    2. LM's don't point great but I find mine sufficient. Off the wind they fly along. Speeds of 6+ knots are regular and I have hit 8.2 knots downwind (once. But once is enough to mention it).
                    3. If you build to the plans with the large, open under-cockpit space, you will have ample space to sleep two. You might fit another person under the cockpit, but it would be cramped. The cockpit seat will fit two 6'6" long people sleeping side-by-side.
                    4. Six people on an LM? That's pushing things. I have had four people sailing on my LM, and we could all sit side-by-side on one side of the cockpit. Six would be crowded; doable but not optimal.
                    5. I singlehand all the time. No issues. Reef, furl, anchor, motor, dock, maneuver. The mizzen is a very helpful.

                    Bill, in Texas

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I know this may spark some controversy, but I hope it is of the constructive kind.
                    >
                    > Having built Oldshoe, Reubens Nymph and Zephyr, I am now looking at building something larger (but not as large as Loose Moose II, for which I already have plans) fit for trailering, sleeping on board for short cruises, possible coastal capabilities (bearing in mind that I am talking about the Chilean coast) and generally fun and safe...
                    >
                    > I have, as many of us, studied all the Bolger books I possess:
                    >
                    > - Boats with an Open Mind
                    > - Bolger Boats (Small Boats and The Floating Schooner)
                    > - 30 Odd boats
                    > - 103 Rigs
                    >
                    > as well as all the Payson books, and LF Herreshoff and H Chapelle and Pete Culler, Michalak, Atkin,... (as my wife would not hesitate to add).
                    > and have looked at the designs by various people offered by different people on the internet.
                    >
                    > With study plans to a few hundred boats and many hours of dreaming, you may ask why I limit the choice to these two boats:
                    >
                    > 1) I want a 20' boat (give or take) because it is still trailerable but well out of dinghy size (less sensitive to trim).
                    > 2) Speed is good enough to actually get somewhere
                    > 3) Good sleeping space for 2 and possible sleeping space for 1 or 2 more if push comes to shove (and they are smallish).
                    > 4) Daysailing capacity for 6 or so in protected waters (reasonable conditions)
                    > 5) Possible to singlehand decently
                    > 6) I like Bolger's boats, including the thought process and know for a fact that his construction guidelines work. These are two of his most tested models in the size range. [Runners up would be the Black Skimmer (too heavy and large to trailer easily), Micro (slightly too short on WL), Bolgers simplified Rozinante (too heavy and no motor), Herreshoffs Rozinante (too complicated for me at this stage and no motor and too heavy), Martha Jane (there's a lot of talk about stability issues and not too sure about leeboards, otherwise a very good candidate)]
                    >
                    > Appreciate comments specially from Chebacco/Long Micro owners.
                    >
                  • Bill Howard
                    With emphasis on the 20 boat (give or take) I have just ordered plans for the Fast Motorsailer (22 7 x8 0 x9 ) (BWAOM page 324) because Phil wrote, Its my
                    Message 11 of 19 , Feb 27, 2012
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                      With emphasis on the "20' boat (give or take)" I have just ordered plans for the Fast Motorsailer (22'7"x8'0"x9") (BWAOM page 324) because Phil wrote, "Its my belief that there has never before existed such a combination of sailing performance, power performance, usable space, lightness and compactness, and low cost."

                      Have any of these boats been built to plans?

                      Bill Howard
                      Nellysford VA


                      On Feb 27, 2012, at 4:49 PM, William wrote:


                      > 1) I want a 20' boat (give or take) because it is still trailerable but well out of dinghy size (less sensitive to trim).

                    • prairiedog2332
                      My thinking would lead me more towards the Long Micro if dealing with a rocky coastline. First it has the ability to handle a 9.9 Yamaha high-thrust OB - Mr
                      Message 12 of 19 , Feb 27, 2012
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                        My thinking would lead me more towards the Long Micro if dealing with a
                        rocky coastline. First it has the ability to handle a 9.9 Yamaha
                        high-thrust OB - Mr Bolger's favorite OB - for clawing off in a pinch.
                        Not sure Chebacco could take one. Secondly it has more chance of
                        self-rigthing with the lead keel under it.

                        Lastly would consider the Micro Navigator mods for even more security
                        for the crew.

                        Nels


                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "William" <kingw@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > David,
                        > I built and have sailed my LM for 4+ years now. I sailed her on Lake
                        Erie, a small lake in Texas, and on two-week long adventures on Lake
                        Huron (in 2010 and 2011). Like you, I seriously considered a Chebacco
                        but in the end opted for the "ugly and disposable" (*cough*) LM. I like
                        the stability of the flat bottom, plumb sides, and the big chunk of lead
                        in the keel. Chebacco seemed more tender with less interior space but I
                        have never sailed on one. Chebaccos are beautiful and I'd bet on one to
                        windward and in light airs over the LM. I mean no disrespect to my
                        Chebacco brothers and sisters.
                        > 1. no comment
                        > 2. LM's don't point great but I find mine sufficient. Off the wind
                        they fly along. Speeds of 6+ knots are regular and I have hit 8.2 knots
                        downwind (once. But once is enough to mention it).
                        > 3. If you build to the plans with the large, open under-cockpit space,
                        you will have ample space to sleep two. You might fit another person
                        under the cockpit, but it would be cramped. The cockpit seat will fit
                        two 6'6" long people sleeping side-by-side.
                        > 4. Six people on an LM? That's pushing things. I have had four
                        people sailing on my LM, and we could all sit side-by-side on one side
                        of the cockpit. Six would be crowded; doable but not optimal.
                        > 5. I singlehand all the time. No issues. Reef, furl, anchor, motor,
                        dock, maneuver. The mizzen is a very helpful.
                        >
                        > Bill, in Texas
                        >
                        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" dir_cobb@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I know this may spark some controversy, but I hope it is of the
                        constructive kind.
                        > >
                        > > Having built Oldshoe, Reubens Nymph and Zephyr, I am now looking at
                        building something larger (but not as large as Loose Moose II, for which
                        I already have plans) fit for trailering, sleeping on board for short
                        cruises, possible coastal capabilities (bearing in mind that I am
                        talking about the Chilean coast) and generally fun and safe...
                        > >
                        > > I have, as many of us, studied all the Bolger books I possess:
                        > >
                        > > - Boats with an Open Mind
                        > > - Bolger Boats (Small Boats and The Floating Schooner)
                        > > - 30 Odd boats
                        > > - 103 Rigs
                        > >
                        > > as well as all the Payson books, and LF Herreshoff and H Chapelle
                        and Pete Culler, Michalak, Atkin,... (as my wife would not hesitate to
                        add).
                        > > and have looked at the designs by various people offered by
                        different people on the internet.
                        > >
                        > > With study plans to a few hundred boats and many hours of dreaming,
                        you may ask why I limit the choice to these two boats:
                        > >
                        > > 1) I want a 20' boat (give or take) because it is still trailerable
                        but well out of dinghy size (less sensitive to trim).
                        > > 2) Speed is good enough to actually get somewhere
                        > > 3) Good sleeping space for 2 and possible sleeping space for 1 or 2
                        more if push comes to shove (and they are smallish).
                        > > 4) Daysailing capacity for 6 or so in protected waters (reasonable
                        conditions)
                        > > 5) Possible to singlehand decently
                        > > 6) I like Bolger's boats, including the thought process and know for
                        a fact that his construction guidelines work. These are two of his most
                        tested models in the size range. [Runners up would be the Black Skimmer
                        (too heavy and large to trailer easily), Micro (slightly too short on
                        WL), Bolgers simplified Rozinante (too heavy and no motor), Herreshoffs
                        Rozinante (too complicated for me at this stage and no motor and too
                        heavy), Martha Jane (there's a lot of talk about stability issues and
                        not too sure about leeboards, otherwise a very good candidate)]
                        > >
                        > > Appreciate comments specially from Chebacco/Long Micro owners.
                        > >
                        >
                      • Bill Howard
                        New Thread: I have just bought myself a birthday present: plans for the Fast Motorsailer (22 7 x8 0 x9 ) (BWAOM page 324). Phil wrote, Its my belief that
                        Message 13 of 19 , Feb 27, 2012
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                          New Thread:

                           I have just bought myself a birthday present:   plans for the Fast Motorsailer (22'7"x8'0"x9") (BWAOM page 324).  Phil wrote, "Its my belief that there has never before existed such a combination of sailing performance, power performance, usable space, lightness and compactness, and low cost."

                          Have any of these boats been built to plans?

                          Bill Howard
                          Nellysford VA
                        • David
                          Thanks Bill Very much my own thoughts... I singlehand a lot. However, I have found that on the occasions people want to tag along it s more than fit in Oldshoe
                          Message 14 of 19 , Feb 27, 2012
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                            Thanks Bill

                            Very much my own thoughts... I singlehand a lot. However, I have found that on the occasions people want to tag along it's more than fit in Oldshoe (if you know what I mean). In protected waters 3 or 4 adults plus some kids is more likely. Otherwise a whole pile of kids and myself

                            For coastal sailing I tend to veer towards Long Micro. I remember reading somewhere about fitting a drop keel to improve windward ability. Does anyone have real first hand experience?

                            Very much appreciate all the feedback/thoughts.


                            David

                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "William" <kingw@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > David,
                            > I built and have sailed my LM for 4+ years now. I sailed her on Lake Erie, a small lake in Texas, and on two-week long adventures on Lake Huron (in 2010 and 2011). Like you, I seriously considered a Chebacco but in the end opted for the "ugly and disposable" (*cough*) LM. I like the stability of the flat bottom, plumb sides, and the big chunk of lead in the keel. Chebacco seemed more tender with less interior space but I have never sailed on one. Chebaccos are beautiful and I'd bet on one to windward and in light airs over the LM. I mean no disrespect to my Chebacco brothers and sisters.
                            > 1. no comment
                            > 2. LM's don't point great but I find mine sufficient. Off the wind they fly along. Speeds of 6+ knots are regular and I have hit 8.2 knots downwind (once. But once is enough to mention it).
                            > 3. If you build to the plans with the large, open under-cockpit space, you will have ample space to sleep two. You might fit another person under the cockpit, but it would be cramped. The cockpit seat will fit two 6'6" long people sleeping side-by-side.
                            > 4. Six people on an LM? That's pushing things. I have had four people sailing on my LM, and we could all sit side-by-side on one side of the cockpit. Six would be crowded; doable but not optimal.
                            > 5. I singlehand all the time. No issues. Reef, furl, anchor, motor, dock, maneuver. The mizzen is a very helpful.
                            >
                            > Bill, in Texas
                            >
                            > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I know this may spark some controversy, but I hope it is of the constructive kind.
                            > >
                            > > Having built Oldshoe, Reubens Nymph and Zephyr, I am now looking at building something larger (but not as large as Loose Moose II, for which I already have plans) fit for trailering, sleeping on board for short cruises, possible coastal capabilities (bearing in mind that I am talking about the Chilean coast) and generally fun and safe...
                            > >
                            > > I have, as many of us, studied all the Bolger books I possess:
                            > >
                            > > - Boats with an Open Mind
                            > > - Bolger Boats (Small Boats and The Floating Schooner)
                            > > - 30 Odd boats
                            > > - 103 Rigs
                            > >
                            > > as well as all the Payson books, and LF Herreshoff and H Chapelle and Pete Culler, Michalak, Atkin,... (as my wife would not hesitate to add).
                            > > and have looked at the designs by various people offered by different people on the internet.
                            > >
                            > > With study plans to a few hundred boats and many hours of dreaming, you may ask why I limit the choice to these two boats:
                            > >
                            > > 1) I want a 20' boat (give or take) because it is still trailerable but well out of dinghy size (less sensitive to trim).
                            > > 2) Speed is good enough to actually get somewhere
                            > > 3) Good sleeping space for 2 and possible sleeping space for 1 or 2 more if push comes to shove (and they are smallish).
                            > > 4) Daysailing capacity for 6 or so in protected waters (reasonable conditions)
                            > > 5) Possible to singlehand decently
                            > > 6) I like Bolger's boats, including the thought process and know for a fact that his construction guidelines work. These are two of his most tested models in the size range. [Runners up would be the Black Skimmer (too heavy and large to trailer easily), Micro (slightly too short on WL), Bolgers simplified Rozinante (too heavy and no motor), Herreshoffs Rozinante (too complicated for me at this stage and no motor and too heavy), Martha Jane (there's a lot of talk about stability issues and not too sure about leeboards, otherwise a very good candidate)]
                            > >
                            > > Appreciate comments specially from Chebacco/Long Micro owners.
                            > >
                            >
                          • Harry James
                            If you look at the last video I put up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ_qk2MNsuI you can see that the Micro holds its own off the wind with the Chebacco in
                            Message 15 of 19 , Feb 27, 2012
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                              If you look at the last video I put up

                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ_qk2MNsuI

                              you can see that the Micro holds its own off the wind with the Chebacco
                              in smooth water.

                              HJ

                              On 2/27/2012 11:59 AM, Peter wrote:
                              > I've never sailed either an LM or a Chebacco so I should probably keep right out of it, but I will note that long cruises have been made boats of both designs.
                              >
                              > In the matter of suitability to the local conditions, I suspect that anything one can take, the other can too, but the experience may not be the same.
                              >
                              > LM is going to be subject to the occasional withering crash that PCB predicted for Jesse Cooper. OTOH, someone once wrote that his Chebacco loved waves.
                              >
                              > Chebacco has a centerboard that's deeper than LM's keel which might be helpful clawing upwind. And there are some reports of Chebacco being remarkably fast downwind. OTOH, two people cruising are going to be more comfortable in the cabin of LM.
                              >
                              > I've read reports that the LM rig is generous, so learn to reef. That would also suggest she's good in light air.
                              >
                              > As far as other PB&F designs, there is the 20' sharpie (revised version) that a man and his daughter took down the Mississippi, the very pretty triple keel sloop, etc.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Bolger rules!!!
                              > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                              > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                              > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                              > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                              > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                              > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • prairiedog2332
                              To add to the choices, there is a raised shelter house version of Chebacco and an off-shore version with a pilothouse and then also the 25 foot clinker hull if
                              Message 16 of 19 , Feb 28, 2012
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                                To add to the choices, there is a raised shelter house version of
                                Chebacco and an off-shore version with a pilothouse and then also the 25
                                foot clinker hull if you want more space for passengers.

                                Bolger wrote about the later:.. `the longer length lets her go faster in
                                a good breeze or under power. She planes cleanly with a 15-h.p. motor at
                                low cruising r.p.m. (BWAOM Page 229)`

                                I look forward to seeing sailing photos of the one that is being built,
                                and how the Solent lug main does, if indeed that is what the builder
                                goes with.

                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Thanks Bill
                                >
                                > Very much my own thoughts... I singlehand a lot. However, I have found
                                that on the occasions people want to tag along it's more than fit in
                                Oldshoe (if you know what I mean). In protected waters 3 or 4 adults
                                plus some kids is more likely. Otherwise a whole pile of kids and myself
                                >
                                > For coastal sailing I tend to veer towards Long Micro. I remember
                                reading somewhere about fitting a drop keel to improve windward ability.
                                Does anyone have real first hand experience?
                                >
                                > Very much appreciate all the feedback/thoughts.
                                >
                                >
                                > David
                                >
                                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "William" kingw@ wrote:
                                > >
                                > > David,
                                > > I built and have sailed my LM for 4+ years now. I sailed her on Lake
                                Erie, a small lake in Texas, and on two-week long adventures on Lake
                                Huron (in 2010 and 2011). Like you, I seriously considered a Chebacco
                                but in the end opted for the "ugly and disposable" (*cough*) LM. I like
                                the stability of the flat bottom, plumb sides, and the big chunk of lead
                                in the keel. Chebacco seemed more tender with less interior space but I
                                have never sailed on one. Chebaccos are beautiful and I'd bet on one to
                                windward and in light airs over the LM. I mean no disrespect to my
                                Chebacco brothers and sisters.
                                > > 1. no comment
                                > > 2. LM's don't point great but I find mine sufficient. Off the wind
                                they fly along. Speeds of 6+ knots are regular and I have hit 8.2 knots
                                downwind (once. But once is enough to mention it).
                                > > 3. If you build to the plans with the large, open under-cockpit
                                space, you will have ample space to sleep two. You might fit another
                                person under the cockpit, but it would be cramped. The cockpit seat will
                                fit two 6'6" long people sleeping side-by-side.
                                > > 4. Six people on an LM? That's pushing things. I have had four
                                people sailing on my LM, and we could all sit side-by-side on one side
                                of the cockpit. Six would be crowded; doable but not optimal.
                                > > 5. I singlehand all the time. No issues. Reef, furl, anchor, motor,
                                dock, maneuver. The mizzen is a very helpful.
                                > >
                                > > Bill, in Texas
                                > >
                                > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > I know this may spark some controversy, but I hope it is of the
                                constructive kind.
                                > > >
                                > > > Having built Oldshoe, Reubens Nymph and Zephyr, I am now looking
                                at building something larger (but not as large as Loose Moose II, for
                                which I already have plans) fit for trailering, sleeping on board for
                                short cruises, possible coastal capabilities (bearing in mind that I am
                                talking about the Chilean coast) and generally fun and safe...
                                > > >
                                > > > I have, as many of us, studied all the Bolger books I possess:
                                > > >
                                > > > - Boats with an Open Mind
                                > > > - Bolger Boats (Small Boats and The Floating Schooner)
                                > > > - 30 Odd boats
                                > > > - 103 Rigs
                                > > >
                                > > > as well as all the Payson books, and LF Herreshoff and H Chapelle
                                and Pete Culler, Michalak, Atkin,... (as my wife would not hesitate to
                                add).
                                > > > and have looked at the designs by various people offered by
                                different people on the internet.
                                > > >
                                > > > With study plans to a few hundred boats and many hours of
                                dreaming, you may ask why I limit the choice to these two boats:
                                > > >
                                > > > 1) I want a 20' boat (give or take) because it is still
                                trailerable but well out of dinghy size (less sensitive to trim).
                                > > > 2) Speed is good enough to actually get somewhere
                                > > > 3) Good sleeping space for 2 and possible sleeping space for 1 or
                                2 more if push comes to shove (and they are smallish).
                                > > > 4) Daysailing capacity for 6 or so in protected waters (reasonable
                                conditions)
                                > > > 5) Possible to singlehand decently
                                > > > 6) I like Bolger's boats, including the thought process and know
                                for a fact that his construction guidelines work. These are two of his
                                most tested models in the size range. [Runners up would be the Black
                                Skimmer (too heavy and large to trailer easily), Micro (slightly too
                                short on WL), Bolgers simplified Rozinante (too heavy and no motor),
                                Herreshoffs Rozinante (too complicated for me at this stage and no motor
                                and too heavy), Martha Jane (there's a lot of talk about stability
                                issues and not too sure about leeboards, otherwise a very good
                                candidate)]
                                > > >
                                > > > Appreciate comments specially from Chebacco/Long Micro owners.
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
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