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Re: Seabird 86

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  • prairiedog2332
    One built in Germany. Not sure if the e-mail is still current: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/31397
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 1, 2011
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      One built in Germany. Not sure if the e-mail is still current:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/31397

      The website is still up and has the same address:

      http://www.oocities.org/nohnpages/original.html

      He mentioned once that he found it rather cramped for space below decks.

      Nels


      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <sepottschr@...> wrote:
      >
      > Has anyone heard how bolgers seabird 86 performs? I belive at least one has been built, but have never heard how they liked the design?
      >

    • Peter
      PCB wrote somewhere that he had gotten a sail on a Seabird 86. (This was before the very nice German boat, so at least two were built.) He said it was
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 1, 2011
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        PCB wrote somewhere that he had gotten a sail on a Seabird '86. (This was before the very nice German boat, so at least two were built.) He said it was initially tender as might be expected from the narrow waterline, but sailed in a satisfactory manner.

        You have to put his remarks in context. He had drawn it thinking in terms of motorsailer, so he wouldn't have expected J-24 performance, and he'd hardly have written that the boat was a dog and to be avoided in any case. On the other hand, he and Suzanne put a lot of work into the sloop and Navigator versions later, so he must have thought it was pretty decent. And he certainly would not have gone for the Navigator if he thought it couldn't carry the weight.

        Seabird '86 strikes me as a cruising version of Chebacco. The hull forms are similar, and they both have the very practical OB well. The ballast keel of Seabird makes her more forgiving of a helmsman's inattention in a breeze. PCB tried to be clever about storage for gear and duffle. Any 22-footer is cramped inside, especially after a couple days of rain.

        Seabird makes an interesting contrast to Long Micro. The interior of LM takes advantage of the boxy shape where SB loses volume where the LM has the chine. LM might be faster is a lot of conditions (I gather the rig is generous), but much more jarring than SB.
      • prairiedog2332
        Yes, Mr. Bolger mentioned it was tiddly at anchor :-) Looking at the drawings on page 254 of BWAM one can visualize why it might seem cramped. When the berths
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 1, 2011
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          Yes, Mr. Bolger mentioned it was "tiddly at anchor":-)

          Looking at the drawings on page 254 of BWAM one can visualize why it might seem cramped. When the berths are rigged there is no space to access the table and even get to the WC. And they have to be stowed to get access to the table and the cooking arrangement with is rather awkward as it all slides under the cockpit. This boat does fall under the "bed and brakfast" section of the book though.

          The large bilge panels rob a lot of potential storage and living space, but of course add to it's seaworthiness. A compromise between it and LM might be the Michalak Picara with narrower bilge panels?

          http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm

          But Jim makes himself clear that he does not design off-shore boats. Picara might be close.

          Nels


          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
          >
          > PCB wrote somewhere that he had gotten a sail on a Seabird '86. (This was before the very nice German boat, so at least two were built.) He said it was initially tender as might be expected from the narrow waterline, but sailed in a satisfactory manner.
          >
          > You have to put his remarks in context. He had drawn it thinking in terms of motorsailer, so he wouldn't have expected J-24 performance, and he'd hardly have written that the boat was a dog and to be avoided in any case. On the other hand, he and Suzanne put a lot of work into the sloop and Navigator versions later, so he must have thought it was pretty decent. And he certainly would not have gone for the Navigator if he thought it couldn't carry the weight.
          >
          > Seabird '86 strikes me as a cruising version of Chebacco. The hull forms are similar, and they both have the very practical OB well. The ballast keel of Seabird makes her more forgiving of a helmsman's inattention in a breeze. PCB tried to be clever about storage for gear and duffle. Any 22-footer is cramped inside, especially after a couple days of rain.
          >
          > Seabird makes an interesting contrast to Long Micro. The interior of LM takes advantage of the boxy shape where SB loses volume where the LM has the chine. LM might be faster is a lot of conditions (I gather the rig is generous), but much more jarring than SB.
          >

        • mike graf
          bolger also mentioned the original photos of Seabird yawl showed her overloaded. Often the case in small passage makers. Overload the 86 and she d put her
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 1, 2011
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            bolger also mentioned the original photos of Seabird yawl showed her
            overloaded. Often the case in small passage makers. Overload the 86 and
            she'd put her chines in the water stiffen up and handle any sea. She
            would not exceed her hull-speed. I could see the long micro well
            exceeding her hull-speed. comfort vs speed


            prairiedog2332 wrote:
            >
            > Yes, Mr. Bolger mentioned it was "tiddly at anchor":-)
            >
            > Looking at the drawings on page 254 of BWAM one can visualize why it
            > might seem cramped. When the berths are rigged there is no space to
            > access the table and even get to the WC. And they have to be stowed to
            > get access to the table and the cooking arrangement with is rather
            > awkward as it all slides under the cockpit. This boat does fall under
            > the "bed and brakfast" section of the book though.
            >
            > The large bilge panels rob a lot of potential storage and living
            > space, but of course add to it's seaworthiness. A compromise between
            > it and LM might be the Michalak Picara with narrower bilge panels?
            >
            > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm
            >
            > But Jim makes himself clear that he does not design off-shore boats.
            > Picara might be close.
            >
            > Nels
            >
            >
            > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > PCB wrote somewhere that he had gotten a sail on a Seabird '86.
            > (This was before the very nice German boat, so at least two were
            > built.) He said it was initially tender as might be expected from the
            > narrow waterline, but sailed in a satisfactory manner.
            > >
            > > You have to put his remarks in context. He had drawn it thinking in
            > terms of motorsailer, so he wouldn't have expected J-24 performance,
            > and he'd hardly have written that the boat was a dog and to be avoided
            > in any case. On the other hand, he and Suzanne put a lot of work into
            > the sloop and Navigator versions later, so he must have thought it was
            > pretty decent. And he certainly would not have gone for the Navigator
            > if he thought it couldn't carry the weight.
            > >
            > > Seabird '86 strikes me as a cruising version of Chebacco. The hull
            > forms are similar, and they both have the very practical OB well. The
            > ballast keel of Seabird makes her more forgiving of a helmsman's
            > inattention in a breeze. PCB tried to be clever about storage for gear
            > and duffle. Any 22-footer is cramped inside, especially after a couple
            > days of rain.
            > >
            > > Seabird makes an interesting contrast to Long Micro. The interior of
            > LM takes advantage of the boxy shape where SB loses volume where the
            > LM has the chine. LM might be faster is a lot of conditions (I gather
            > the rig is generous), but much more jarring than SB.
            > >
            >
            >
          • Wayne Gilham
            Y know, it s interesting to me that the cockpit/deck/cabintop/forward-cockpit, etc etc etc of this SeaBird is nearly identical to Bolger s famous and oft-built
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 6, 2011
            • 1 Attachment
            • 18 KB
            Y'know, it's interesting to me that the
            cockpit/deck/cabintop/forward-cockpit, etc etc etc of this SeaBird is nearly
            identical to Bolger's famous and oft-built Black Skimmer-- same flush-deck
            right to gunwales, nearly same portlights -- but that boat's a
            leeboard-sharpie, thus totally different under-water. AND a cat-yawl, so
            totally different rig as well.

            (sorry, I haven't reviewed SeaBird's interior accommodations, so can't
            comment on similarities there)

            Heck, even the stout tall verticals on the companionway-hatch structure, to
            strengthen the foredeck as well as to provide some centerline
            not-quite-headroom, is the same on both!

            I owned a Black Skimmer, and found her to be very user-friendly from that
            layout -- I'd say Phil "copied" one-to-the-other (no idea which was first)
            because it was a layout / construction proven to WORK, both for the build,
            and for the usage.

            Wayne Gilham

            From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            prairiedog2332
            Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 8:42 AM
            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [bolger] Re: Seabird 86


            Yes, Mr. Bolger mentioned it was "tiddly at anchor":-)
            Looking at the drawings on page 254 of BWAM one can visualize why it might
            seem cramped. When the berths are rigged there is no space to access the
            table and even get to the WC. And they have to be stowed to get access to
            the table and the cooking arrangement with is rather awkward as it all
            slides under the cockpit. This boat does fall under the "bed and brakfast"
            section of the book though.
            The large bilge panels rob a lot of potential storage and living space, but
            of course add to it's seaworthiness. A compromise between it and LM might be
            the Michalak Picara with narrower bilge panels?
            http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm
            But Jim makes himself clear that he does not design off-shore boats. Picara
            might be close.
            Nels

            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
            >
            > PCB wrote somewhere that he had gotten a sail on a Seabird '86. (This was
            before the very nice German boat, so at least two were built.) He said it
            was initially tender as might be expected from the narrow waterline, but
            sailed in a satisfactory manner.
            >
            > You have to put his remarks in context. He had drawn it thinking in terms
            of motorsailer, so he wouldn't have expected J-24 performance, and he'd
            hardly have written that the boat was a dog and to be avoided in any case.
            On the other hand, he and Suzanne put a lot of work into the sloop and
            Navigator versions later, so he must have thought it was pretty decent. And
            he certainly would not have gone for the Navigator if he thought it couldn't
            carry the weight.
            >
            > Seabird '86 strikes me as a cruising version of Chebacco. The hull forms
            are similar, and they both have the very practical OB well. The ballast keel
            of Seabird makes her more forgiving of a helmsman's inattention in a breeze.
            PCB tried to be clever about storage for gear and duffle. Any 22-footer is
            cramped inside, especially after a couple days of rain.
            >
            > Seabird makes an interesting contrast to Long Micro. The interior of LM
            takes advantage of the boxy shape where SB loses volume where the LM has the
            chine. LM might be faster is a lot of conditions (I gather the rig is
            generous), but much more jarring than SB.
            >

            No virus found in this message.
            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4650 - Release Date: 12/01/11
          • John and Kathy Trussell
            PCB has often pointed out that raised decks are a) stronger, b) provide more headroom for people sitting inside the cabin against the side, and c) increase
            Message 6 of 8 , Dec 7, 2011
            • 1 Attachment
            • 16 KB
            PCB has often pointed out that raised decks are a) stronger, b) provide more
            headroom for people sitting inside the cabin against the side, and c)
            increase buoyancy and seaworthiness. Raised decks are also found on Edey and
            Duff's Stonehorse, some versions of the San Juan 21 and even a Cal 20.
            Unfortunately, a lot of people just don't like the way they look.



            JohnT



            _____

            From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            Wayne Gilham
            Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 10:32 PM
            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Seabird 86 [1 Attachment]





            [Attachment(s) from Wayne Gilham included below]

            Y'know, it's interesting to me that the
            cockpit/deck/cabintop/forward-cockpit, etc etc etc of this SeaBird is nearly
            identical to Bolger's famous and oft-built Black Skimmer-- same flush-deck
            right to gunwales, nearly same portlights -- but that boat's a
            leeboard-sharpie, thus totally different under-water. AND a cat-yawl, so
            totally different rig as well.

            (sorry, I haven't reviewed SeaBird's interior accommodations, so can't
            comment on similarities there)

            Heck, even the stout tall verticals on the companionway-hatch structure, to
            strengthen the foredeck as well as to provide some centerline
            not-quite-headroom, is the same on both!

            I owned a Black Skimmer, and found her to be very user-friendly from that
            layout -- I'd say Phil "copied" one-to-the-other (no idea which was first)
            because it was a layout / construction proven to WORK, both for the build,
            and for the usage.

            Wayne Gilham

            From: bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
            [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
            Of
            prairiedog2332
            Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 8:42 AM
            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: [bolger] Re: Seabird 86


            Yes, Mr. Bolger mentioned it was "tiddly at anchor":-)
            Looking at the drawings on page 254 of BWAM one can visualize why it might
            seem cramped. When the berths are rigged there is no space to access the
            table and even get to the WC. And they have to be stowed to get access to
            the table and the cooking arrangement with is rather awkward as it all
            slides under the cockpit. This boat does fall under the "bed and brakfast"
            section of the book though.
            The large bilge panels rob a lot of potential storage and living space, but
            of course add to it's seaworthiness. A compromise between it and LM might be
            the Michalak Picara with narrower bilge panels?
            http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm
            But Jim makes himself clear that he does not design off-shore boats. Picara
            might be close.
            Nels

            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> , "Peter"
            <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
            >
            > PCB wrote somewhere that he had gotten a sail on a Seabird '86. (This was
            before the very nice German boat, so at least two were built.) He said it
            was initially tender as might be expected from the narrow waterline, but
            sailed in a satisfactory manner.
            >
            > You have to put his remarks in context. He had drawn it thinking in terms
            of motorsailer, so he wouldn't have expected J-24 performance, and he'd
            hardly have written that the boat was a dog and to be avoided in any case.
            On the other hand, he and Suzanne put a lot of work into the sloop and
            Navigator versions later, so he must have thought it was pretty decent. And
            he certainly would not have gone for the Navigator if he thought it couldn't
            carry the weight.
            >
            > Seabird '86 strikes me as a cruising version of Chebacco. The hull forms
            are similar, and they both have the very practical OB well. The ballast keel
            of Seabird makes her more forgiving of a helmsman's inattention in a breeze.
            PCB tried to be clever about storage for gear and duffle. Any 22-footer is
            cramped inside, especially after a couple days of rain.
            >
            > Seabird makes an interesting contrast to Long Micro. The interior of LM
            takes advantage of the boxy shape where SB loses volume where the LM has the
            chine. LM might be faster is a lot of conditions (I gather the rig is
            generous), but much more jarring than SB.
            >

            No virus found in this message.
            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4650 - Release Date: 12/01/11
          • prairiedog2332
            Personally I love the look of the raised deck as well as the comfort of leaning back against the sides with no deckhouse beam impinging. Newfoundlander is
            Message 7 of 8 , Dec 7, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Personally I love the look of the raised deck as well as the comfort of
              leaning back against the sides with no deckhouse beam impinging.
              Newfoundlander is another Bolger example.

              Disadvantage is no side decks to go forward along. So an access
              companionway forward is a plus - like on the latest Micro mods - as
              well as having control lines back to the helm are a help.

              Also looks great with a hard dodger/pilothouse addtion.

              Nels


              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
              <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
              >
              > PCB has often pointed out that raised decks are a) stronger, b)
              provide more
              > headroom for people sitting inside the cabin against the side, and c)
              > increase buoyancy and seaworthiness. Raised decks are also found on
              Edey and
              > Duff's Stonehorse, some versions of the San Juan 21 and even a Cal 20.
              > Unfortunately, a lot of people just don't like the way they look.
              >
              >
              >
              > JohnT
              >
              >
              >
              > _____
              >
              > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of
              > Wayne Gilham
              > Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 10:32 PM
              > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Seabird 86 [1 Attachment]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Attachment(s) from Wayne Gilham included below]
              >
              > Y'know, it's interesting to me that the
              > cockpit/deck/cabintop/forward-cockpit, etc etc etc of this SeaBird is
              nearly
              > identical to Bolger's famous and oft-built Black Skimmer-- same
              flush-deck
              > right to gunwales, nearly same portlights -- but that boat's a
              > leeboard-sharpie, thus totally different under-water. AND a cat-yawl,
              so
              > totally different rig as well.
              >
              > (sorry, I haven't reviewed SeaBird's interior accommodations, so can't
              > comment on similarities there)
              >
              > Heck, even the stout tall verticals on the companionway-hatch
              structure, to
              > strengthen the foredeck as well as to provide some centerline
              > not-quite-headroom, is the same on both!
              >
              > I owned a Black Skimmer, and found her to be very user-friendly from
              that
              > layout -- I'd say Phil "copied" one-to-the-other (no idea which was
              first)
              > because it was a layout / construction proven to WORK, both for the
              build,
              > and for the usage.
              >
              > Wayne Gilham
              >
              > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
              > [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
              Behalf
              > Of
              > prairiedog2332
              > Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 8:42 AM
              > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
              > Subject: [bolger] Re: Seabird 86
              >
              >
              > Yes, Mr. Bolger mentioned it was "tiddly at anchor":-)
              > Looking at the drawings on page 254 of BWAM one can visualize why it
              might
              > seem cramped. When the berths are rigged there is no space to access
              the
              > table and even get to the WC. And they have to be stowed to get access
              to
              > the table and the cooking arrangement with is rather awkward as it all
              > slides under the cockpit. This boat does fall under the "bed and
              brakfast"
              > section of the book though.
              > The large bilge panels rob a lot of potential storage and living
              space, but
              > of course add to it's seaworthiness. A compromise between it and LM
              might be
              > the Michalak Picara with narrower bilge panels?
              > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm
              > But Jim makes himself clear that he does not design off-shore boats.
              Picara
              > might be close.
              > Nels
              >
              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> ,
              "Peter"
              > pvanderwaart@ wrote:
              > >
              > > PCB wrote somewhere that he had gotten a sail on a Seabird '86.
              (This was
              > before the very nice German boat, so at least two were built.) He said
              it
              > was initially tender as might be expected from the narrow waterline,
              but
              > sailed in a satisfactory manner.
              > >
              > > You have to put his remarks in context. He had drawn it thinking in
              terms
              > of motorsailer, so he wouldn't have expected J-24 performance, and
              he'd
              > hardly have written that the boat was a dog and to be avoided in any
              case.
              > On the other hand, he and Suzanne put a lot of work into the sloop and
              > Navigator versions later, so he must have thought it was pretty
              decent. And
              > he certainly would not have gone for the Navigator if he thought it
              couldn't
              > carry the weight.
              > >
              > > Seabird '86 strikes me as a cruising version of Chebacco. The hull
              forms
              > are similar, and they both have the very practical OB well. The
              ballast keel
              > of Seabird makes her more forgiving of a helmsman's inattention in a
              breeze.
              > PCB tried to be clever about storage for gear and duffle. Any
              22-footer is
              > cramped inside, especially after a couple days of rain.
              > >
              > > Seabird makes an interesting contrast to Long Micro. The interior of
              LM
              > takes advantage of the boxy shape where SB loses volume where the LM
              has the
              > chine. LM might be faster is a lot of conditions (I gather the rig is
              > generous), but much more jarring than SB.
              > >
              >
              > No virus found in this message.
              > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              > Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4650 - Release Date:
              12/01/11
              >
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