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Seabird 8

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  • Chris
    Has anyone heard how bolgers seabird 86 performs? I belive at least one has been built, but have never heard how they liked the design?
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 30, 2011
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      Has anyone heard how bolgers seabird 86 performs? I belive at least one has been built, but have never heard how they liked the design?
    • prairiedog2332
      One built in Germany. Not sure if the e-mail is still current: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/31397
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 1, 2011
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        One built in Germany. Not sure if the e-mail is still current:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/31397

        The website is still up and has the same address:

        http://www.oocities.org/nohnpages/original.html

        He mentioned once that he found it rather cramped for space below decks.

        Nels


        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <sepottschr@...> wrote:
        >
        > Has anyone heard how bolgers seabird 86 performs? I belive at least one has been built, but have never heard how they liked the design?
        >

      • Peter
        PCB wrote somewhere that he had gotten a sail on a Seabird 86. (This was before the very nice German boat, so at least two were built.) He said it was
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 1, 2011
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          PCB wrote somewhere that he had gotten a sail on a Seabird '86. (This was before the very nice German boat, so at least two were built.) He said it was initially tender as might be expected from the narrow waterline, but sailed in a satisfactory manner.

          You have to put his remarks in context. He had drawn it thinking in terms of motorsailer, so he wouldn't have expected J-24 performance, and he'd hardly have written that the boat was a dog and to be avoided in any case. On the other hand, he and Suzanne put a lot of work into the sloop and Navigator versions later, so he must have thought it was pretty decent. And he certainly would not have gone for the Navigator if he thought it couldn't carry the weight.

          Seabird '86 strikes me as a cruising version of Chebacco. The hull forms are similar, and they both have the very practical OB well. The ballast keel of Seabird makes her more forgiving of a helmsman's inattention in a breeze. PCB tried to be clever about storage for gear and duffle. Any 22-footer is cramped inside, especially after a couple days of rain.

          Seabird makes an interesting contrast to Long Micro. The interior of LM takes advantage of the boxy shape where SB loses volume where the LM has the chine. LM might be faster is a lot of conditions (I gather the rig is generous), but much more jarring than SB.
        • prairiedog2332
          Yes, Mr. Bolger mentioned it was tiddly at anchor :-) Looking at the drawings on page 254 of BWAM one can visualize why it might seem cramped. When the berths
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 1, 2011
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            Yes, Mr. Bolger mentioned it was "tiddly at anchor":-)

            Looking at the drawings on page 254 of BWAM one can visualize why it might seem cramped. When the berths are rigged there is no space to access the table and even get to the WC. And they have to be stowed to get access to the table and the cooking arrangement with is rather awkward as it all slides under the cockpit. This boat does fall under the "bed and brakfast" section of the book though.

            The large bilge panels rob a lot of potential storage and living space, but of course add to it's seaworthiness. A compromise between it and LM might be the Michalak Picara with narrower bilge panels?

            http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm

            But Jim makes himself clear that he does not design off-shore boats. Picara might be close.

            Nels


            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
            >
            > PCB wrote somewhere that he had gotten a sail on a Seabird '86. (This was before the very nice German boat, so at least two were built.) He said it was initially tender as might be expected from the narrow waterline, but sailed in a satisfactory manner.
            >
            > You have to put his remarks in context. He had drawn it thinking in terms of motorsailer, so he wouldn't have expected J-24 performance, and he'd hardly have written that the boat was a dog and to be avoided in any case. On the other hand, he and Suzanne put a lot of work into the sloop and Navigator versions later, so he must have thought it was pretty decent. And he certainly would not have gone for the Navigator if he thought it couldn't carry the weight.
            >
            > Seabird '86 strikes me as a cruising version of Chebacco. The hull forms are similar, and they both have the very practical OB well. The ballast keel of Seabird makes her more forgiving of a helmsman's inattention in a breeze. PCB tried to be clever about storage for gear and duffle. Any 22-footer is cramped inside, especially after a couple days of rain.
            >
            > Seabird makes an interesting contrast to Long Micro. The interior of LM takes advantage of the boxy shape where SB loses volume where the LM has the chine. LM might be faster is a lot of conditions (I gather the rig is generous), but much more jarring than SB.
            >

          • mike graf
            bolger also mentioned the original photos of Seabird yawl showed her overloaded. Often the case in small passage makers. Overload the 86 and she d put her
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 1, 2011
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              bolger also mentioned the original photos of Seabird yawl showed her
              overloaded. Often the case in small passage makers. Overload the 86 and
              she'd put her chines in the water stiffen up and handle any sea. She
              would not exceed her hull-speed. I could see the long micro well
              exceeding her hull-speed. comfort vs speed


              prairiedog2332 wrote:
              >
              > Yes, Mr. Bolger mentioned it was "tiddly at anchor":-)
              >
              > Looking at the drawings on page 254 of BWAM one can visualize why it
              > might seem cramped. When the berths are rigged there is no space to
              > access the table and even get to the WC. And they have to be stowed to
              > get access to the table and the cooking arrangement with is rather
              > awkward as it all slides under the cockpit. This boat does fall under
              > the "bed and brakfast" section of the book though.
              >
              > The large bilge panels rob a lot of potential storage and living
              > space, but of course add to it's seaworthiness. A compromise between
              > it and LM might be the Michalak Picara with narrower bilge panels?
              >
              > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm
              >
              > But Jim makes himself clear that he does not design off-shore boats.
              > Picara might be close.
              >
              > Nels
              >
              >
              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > PCB wrote somewhere that he had gotten a sail on a Seabird '86.
              > (This was before the very nice German boat, so at least two were
              > built.) He said it was initially tender as might be expected from the
              > narrow waterline, but sailed in a satisfactory manner.
              > >
              > > You have to put his remarks in context. He had drawn it thinking in
              > terms of motorsailer, so he wouldn't have expected J-24 performance,
              > and he'd hardly have written that the boat was a dog and to be avoided
              > in any case. On the other hand, he and Suzanne put a lot of work into
              > the sloop and Navigator versions later, so he must have thought it was
              > pretty decent. And he certainly would not have gone for the Navigator
              > if he thought it couldn't carry the weight.
              > >
              > > Seabird '86 strikes me as a cruising version of Chebacco. The hull
              > forms are similar, and they both have the very practical OB well. The
              > ballast keel of Seabird makes her more forgiving of a helmsman's
              > inattention in a breeze. PCB tried to be clever about storage for gear
              > and duffle. Any 22-footer is cramped inside, especially after a couple
              > days of rain.
              > >
              > > Seabird makes an interesting contrast to Long Micro. The interior of
              > LM takes advantage of the boxy shape where SB loses volume where the
              > LM has the chine. LM might be faster is a lot of conditions (I gather
              > the rig is generous), but much more jarring than SB.
              > >
              >
              >
            • Wayne Gilham
              Y know, it s interesting to me that the cockpit/deck/cabintop/forward-cockpit, etc etc etc of this SeaBird is nearly identical to Bolger s famous and oft-built
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 6, 2011
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              • 18 KB
              Y'know, it's interesting to me that the
              cockpit/deck/cabintop/forward-cockpit, etc etc etc of this SeaBird is nearly
              identical to Bolger's famous and oft-built Black Skimmer-- same flush-deck
              right to gunwales, nearly same portlights -- but that boat's a
              leeboard-sharpie, thus totally different under-water. AND a cat-yawl, so
              totally different rig as well.

              (sorry, I haven't reviewed SeaBird's interior accommodations, so can't
              comment on similarities there)

              Heck, even the stout tall verticals on the companionway-hatch structure, to
              strengthen the foredeck as well as to provide some centerline
              not-quite-headroom, is the same on both!

              I owned a Black Skimmer, and found her to be very user-friendly from that
              layout -- I'd say Phil "copied" one-to-the-other (no idea which was first)
              because it was a layout / construction proven to WORK, both for the build,
              and for the usage.

              Wayne Gilham

              From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              prairiedog2332
              Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 8:42 AM
              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [bolger] Re: Seabird 86


              Yes, Mr. Bolger mentioned it was "tiddly at anchor":-)
              Looking at the drawings on page 254 of BWAM one can visualize why it might
              seem cramped. When the berths are rigged there is no space to access the
              table and even get to the WC. And they have to be stowed to get access to
              the table and the cooking arrangement with is rather awkward as it all
              slides under the cockpit. This boat does fall under the "bed and brakfast"
              section of the book though.
              The large bilge panels rob a lot of potential storage and living space, but
              of course add to it's seaworthiness. A compromise between it and LM might be
              the Michalak Picara with narrower bilge panels?
              http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm
              But Jim makes himself clear that he does not design off-shore boats. Picara
              might be close.
              Nels

              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
              >
              > PCB wrote somewhere that he had gotten a sail on a Seabird '86. (This was
              before the very nice German boat, so at least two were built.) He said it
              was initially tender as might be expected from the narrow waterline, but
              sailed in a satisfactory manner.
              >
              > You have to put his remarks in context. He had drawn it thinking in terms
              of motorsailer, so he wouldn't have expected J-24 performance, and he'd
              hardly have written that the boat was a dog and to be avoided in any case.
              On the other hand, he and Suzanne put a lot of work into the sloop and
              Navigator versions later, so he must have thought it was pretty decent. And
              he certainly would not have gone for the Navigator if he thought it couldn't
              carry the weight.
              >
              > Seabird '86 strikes me as a cruising version of Chebacco. The hull forms
              are similar, and they both have the very practical OB well. The ballast keel
              of Seabird makes her more forgiving of a helmsman's inattention in a breeze.
              PCB tried to be clever about storage for gear and duffle. Any 22-footer is
              cramped inside, especially after a couple days of rain.
              >
              > Seabird makes an interesting contrast to Long Micro. The interior of LM
              takes advantage of the boxy shape where SB loses volume where the LM has the
              chine. LM might be faster is a lot of conditions (I gather the rig is
              generous), but much more jarring than SB.
              >

              No virus found in this message.
              Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4650 - Release Date: 12/01/11
            • John and Kathy Trussell
              PCB has often pointed out that raised decks are a) stronger, b) provide more headroom for people sitting inside the cabin against the side, and c) increase
              Message 7 of 8 , Dec 7, 2011
              • 1 Attachment
              • 16 KB
              PCB has often pointed out that raised decks are a) stronger, b) provide more
              headroom for people sitting inside the cabin against the side, and c)
              increase buoyancy and seaworthiness. Raised decks are also found on Edey and
              Duff's Stonehorse, some versions of the San Juan 21 and even a Cal 20.
              Unfortunately, a lot of people just don't like the way they look.



              JohnT



              _____

              From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              Wayne Gilham
              Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 10:32 PM
              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Seabird 86 [1 Attachment]





              [Attachment(s) from Wayne Gilham included below]

              Y'know, it's interesting to me that the
              cockpit/deck/cabintop/forward-cockpit, etc etc etc of this SeaBird is nearly
              identical to Bolger's famous and oft-built Black Skimmer-- same flush-deck
              right to gunwales, nearly same portlights -- but that boat's a
              leeboard-sharpie, thus totally different under-water. AND a cat-yawl, so
              totally different rig as well.

              (sorry, I haven't reviewed SeaBird's interior accommodations, so can't
              comment on similarities there)

              Heck, even the stout tall verticals on the companionway-hatch structure, to
              strengthen the foredeck as well as to provide some centerline
              not-quite-headroom, is the same on both!

              I owned a Black Skimmer, and found her to be very user-friendly from that
              layout -- I'd say Phil "copied" one-to-the-other (no idea which was first)
              because it was a layout / construction proven to WORK, both for the build,
              and for the usage.

              Wayne Gilham

              From: bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
              [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
              Of
              prairiedog2332
              Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 8:42 AM
              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [bolger] Re: Seabird 86


              Yes, Mr. Bolger mentioned it was "tiddly at anchor":-)
              Looking at the drawings on page 254 of BWAM one can visualize why it might
              seem cramped. When the berths are rigged there is no space to access the
              table and even get to the WC. And they have to be stowed to get access to
              the table and the cooking arrangement with is rather awkward as it all
              slides under the cockpit. This boat does fall under the "bed and brakfast"
              section of the book though.
              The large bilge panels rob a lot of potential storage and living space, but
              of course add to it's seaworthiness. A compromise between it and LM might be
              the Michalak Picara with narrower bilge panels?
              http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm
              But Jim makes himself clear that he does not design off-shore boats. Picara
              might be close.
              Nels

              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> , "Peter"
              <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
              >
              > PCB wrote somewhere that he had gotten a sail on a Seabird '86. (This was
              before the very nice German boat, so at least two were built.) He said it
              was initially tender as might be expected from the narrow waterline, but
              sailed in a satisfactory manner.
              >
              > You have to put his remarks in context. He had drawn it thinking in terms
              of motorsailer, so he wouldn't have expected J-24 performance, and he'd
              hardly have written that the boat was a dog and to be avoided in any case.
              On the other hand, he and Suzanne put a lot of work into the sloop and
              Navigator versions later, so he must have thought it was pretty decent. And
              he certainly would not have gone for the Navigator if he thought it couldn't
              carry the weight.
              >
              > Seabird '86 strikes me as a cruising version of Chebacco. The hull forms
              are similar, and they both have the very practical OB well. The ballast keel
              of Seabird makes her more forgiving of a helmsman's inattention in a breeze.
              PCB tried to be clever about storage for gear and duffle. Any 22-footer is
              cramped inside, especially after a couple days of rain.
              >
              > Seabird makes an interesting contrast to Long Micro. The interior of LM
              takes advantage of the boxy shape where SB loses volume where the LM has the
              chine. LM might be faster is a lot of conditions (I gather the rig is
              generous), but much more jarring than SB.
              >

              No virus found in this message.
              Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4650 - Release Date: 12/01/11
            • prairiedog2332
              Personally I love the look of the raised deck as well as the comfort of leaning back against the sides with no deckhouse beam impinging. Newfoundlander is
              Message 8 of 8 , Dec 7, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Personally I love the look of the raised deck as well as the comfort of
                leaning back against the sides with no deckhouse beam impinging.
                Newfoundlander is another Bolger example.

                Disadvantage is no side decks to go forward along. So an access
                companionway forward is a plus - like on the latest Micro mods - as
                well as having control lines back to the helm are a help.

                Also looks great with a hard dodger/pilothouse addtion.

                Nels


                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
                <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
                >
                > PCB has often pointed out that raised decks are a) stronger, b)
                provide more
                > headroom for people sitting inside the cabin against the side, and c)
                > increase buoyancy and seaworthiness. Raised decks are also found on
                Edey and
                > Duff's Stonehorse, some versions of the San Juan 21 and even a Cal 20.
                > Unfortunately, a lot of people just don't like the way they look.
                >
                >
                >
                > JohnT
                >
                >
                >
                > _____
                >
                > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of
                > Wayne Gilham
                > Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 10:32 PM
                > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Seabird 86 [1 Attachment]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Attachment(s) from Wayne Gilham included below]
                >
                > Y'know, it's interesting to me that the
                > cockpit/deck/cabintop/forward-cockpit, etc etc etc of this SeaBird is
                nearly
                > identical to Bolger's famous and oft-built Black Skimmer-- same
                flush-deck
                > right to gunwales, nearly same portlights -- but that boat's a
                > leeboard-sharpie, thus totally different under-water. AND a cat-yawl,
                so
                > totally different rig as well.
                >
                > (sorry, I haven't reviewed SeaBird's interior accommodations, so can't
                > comment on similarities there)
                >
                > Heck, even the stout tall verticals on the companionway-hatch
                structure, to
                > strengthen the foredeck as well as to provide some centerline
                > not-quite-headroom, is the same on both!
                >
                > I owned a Black Skimmer, and found her to be very user-friendly from
                that
                > layout -- I'd say Phil "copied" one-to-the-other (no idea which was
                first)
                > because it was a layout / construction proven to WORK, both for the
                build,
                > and for the usage.
                >
                > Wayne Gilham
                >
                > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
                > [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                Behalf
                > Of
                > prairiedog2332
                > Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 8:42 AM
                > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
                > Subject: [bolger] Re: Seabird 86
                >
                >
                > Yes, Mr. Bolger mentioned it was "tiddly at anchor":-)
                > Looking at the drawings on page 254 of BWAM one can visualize why it
                might
                > seem cramped. When the berths are rigged there is no space to access
                the
                > table and even get to the WC. And they have to be stowed to get access
                to
                > the table and the cooking arrangement with is rather awkward as it all
                > slides under the cockpit. This boat does fall under the "bed and
                brakfast"
                > section of the book though.
                > The large bilge panels rob a lot of potential storage and living
                space, but
                > of course add to it's seaworthiness. A compromise between it and LM
                might be
                > the Michalak Picara with narrower bilge panels?
                > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm
                > But Jim makes himself clear that he does not design off-shore boats.
                Picara
                > might be close.
                > Nels
                >
                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                "Peter"
                > pvanderwaart@ wrote:
                > >
                > > PCB wrote somewhere that he had gotten a sail on a Seabird '86.
                (This was
                > before the very nice German boat, so at least two were built.) He said
                it
                > was initially tender as might be expected from the narrow waterline,
                but
                > sailed in a satisfactory manner.
                > >
                > > You have to put his remarks in context. He had drawn it thinking in
                terms
                > of motorsailer, so he wouldn't have expected J-24 performance, and
                he'd
                > hardly have written that the boat was a dog and to be avoided in any
                case.
                > On the other hand, he and Suzanne put a lot of work into the sloop and
                > Navigator versions later, so he must have thought it was pretty
                decent. And
                > he certainly would not have gone for the Navigator if he thought it
                couldn't
                > carry the weight.
                > >
                > > Seabird '86 strikes me as a cruising version of Chebacco. The hull
                forms
                > are similar, and they both have the very practical OB well. The
                ballast keel
                > of Seabird makes her more forgiving of a helmsman's inattention in a
                breeze.
                > PCB tried to be clever about storage for gear and duffle. Any
                22-footer is
                > cramped inside, especially after a couple days of rain.
                > >
                > > Seabird makes an interesting contrast to Long Micro. The interior of
                LM
                > takes advantage of the boxy shape where SB loses volume where the LM
                has the
                > chine. LM might be faster is a lot of conditions (I gather the rig is
                > generous), but much more jarring than SB.
                > >
                >
                > No virus found in this message.
                > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                > Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4650 - Release Date:
                12/01/11
                >
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