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Re: [bolger] Re: Epoxy over polyester?

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  • Stefan Topolski
    Different strokes for different folks, of course, but with equally valid assumptions one can come to an opposite conclusion. Cold Moulding is a wonderful
    Message 1 of 32 , Oct 4, 2011
      Different strokes for different folks, of course, but with equally valid assumptions one can come to an opposite conclusion.  Cold Moulding is a wonderful option but more of a mess and much harder to repair once rot sets up under or within the moulded layers.  I've seen that happen more often than i've seen properly Vaitsesed boats rot, but then i've seen more cold moulded boats than Vaitses boats.  Observer bias, value bias, etc. etc.  Let's all just get out there and build something.

      Your view on Vaitses and old-yankee culture seems spot on.  I have nothing to add to your prescient historic view.

      As for the analysis of wooden boat costs, not much has changed since they were worth nothing.  Wooden boats are still worth next to nothing unless you find a rich boat builder who knows his trade (almost nonexistent) or a tranced buyer who has fallen hopelessly foolishly in love (almost as nonexistent these days).   Mason, me, anyone will tell you that you still can't sell them for any where near their worth.  I'm old enough now to say 'Don't quote me asking price - quote me a real selling price.'  The fact that FG boats are in a horrible glut does not mean you get anything serious for a wooden boat, you just get next to nothing for a FB boat.

      All the Best,
      Stefan

      "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand."    -anonymous

      Stefan Topolski  MD
      Assist. Professor, U. of Massachusetts Medical School
      Clinical Instructor, U. of New England
      Founder and Director of
      Caring in Community, Inc.  501(c)3
      1105 Mohawk Trail
      Shelburne Falls, Ma.





      El sep 15, 2011, a las 12:27 pm, etap28 escribió:

       


      The vaitses method always makes me cringe when I hear about it. I guess in the case of a boat with a really terminal hull, great interior and great rig.... it might,just might, pay to do that, but if you're going to build a new hull over the old one, why not cold mold? The part nobody's talking about is fairing the new polyester hull. That's a huge labor investment, unless you just don't care and decide to paint the raw polyester, in which case you've built yourself a totally unsaleable hulk. Either way, you've built yourself a totally unsaleable boat, so you better love it for the 15 or so years it'll last before that well-sheathed rot finishes its business; but if you fair it, at least it'll look like a boat.

      I met Alan Vaitses once in Buzzards Bay, good guy, good boatbuilder, built a lot of Meadowlarks out of wood and glass both. I think his approach to glass was pretty pragmatic, like, here's this new material, seems to work, might as well use it . . . Don't think he spent a lot of time worrying about the long-term pros and cons

      Also don't forget that materials-snobbery has escalated over the years--during his time, old wooden boats were little more than give-aways, so his method was in a way a good solution to an old family heirloom, or a free boat. IE, the method was very shoestring-yankee oriented, time-and-place specific. Nowadays the asking prices of good wooden sailboats is about twice that of the equivalent boat in glass, due to the glut of glass boats, the fact that most surviving wooden boats have been rebuilt by now, and the growth of wooden boat snobbery, so in a way his method was very short lived and mostly used (I think) by clans trying get another generation out of the old family Alden (or whatever)

      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:
      >
      > I want to refine Stefan's posting.
      >
      > The Vaitses method is as described--a "creation" of a new hull outside
      > the exterior of an older, solid wood one. It works, after a fashion, and
      > is a "temporary" fix, in that the hull will not last forever, but the
      > new life offered by the "topcoat" extends the life of the boat more than
      > commensurate with labor, materials, and time required of the technique.
      >
      > However, this is not a "new" boat, nor is the hull adequate to stand on
      > its own. The interior framing of the old boat is still essential, and a
      > complete collapse of the interior planking will render the boat
      > dangerous at best, useless at worst.
      >
      > The mechanics of the method creates a watertight hull. What is essential
      > is a firm bond between the new skin (that's all it is) and the old,
      > otherwise useable boat. This is what the ringnails do--provide a strong
      > connection between the old skin and the new skin.
      >
      > So, the metaphor that is appropriate is a "skin graft". This will
      > perform admirably, but it's not also a heart, lung, liver & kidney
      > transplant as well--the framing, decking, motor, rigging, sails, and
      > their condition determines the value and functionality of the boat. It's
      > just a way to keep the water out--it's like wrapping the boat in a stiff
      > balloon. (OK, a very stiff balloon).
      >
      > I'm not sure why he claims the boat will sit higher in the water--that
      > seems to defy the laws of physics. Because the skin (polyester, nails,
      > fabric) are all heavier than water, and because the skin displaces only
      > its own volume, it should ride lower, unless . . . well I can think of
      > several bad things that would make this happen, but none good.
      >


    • Stefan Topolski
      In his book he did restore sailing yachts with it - his stories include one being indestructable until it got cut in half by a steamer off shore. All the Best,
      Message 32 of 32 , Oct 4, 2011
        In his book he did restore sailing yachts with it - his stories include one being indestructable until it got cut in half by a steamer off shore.

        All the Best,
        Stefan

        "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand."    -anonymous

        Stefan Topolski  MD
        Assist. Professor, U. of Massachusetts Medical School
        Clinical Instructor, U. of New England
        Founder and Director of
        Caring in Community, Inc.  501(c)3
        1105 Mohawk Trail
        Shelburne Falls, Ma.





        El sep 17, 2011, a las 5:06 pm, John Kohnen escribió:

        Vaitses's method was intended to get some more years of working out of  
        fishing boats and other workboats. I don't think I ever read of him  
        touting it for yachts.

        A fellow I knew got ahold of a nice-looking British built double-ended  
        sailboat that had been cold-molded over. The work had been done in Port  
        Townsend, wooden boat capital of the west. That doesn't mean that  
        _everyone_ in Port Townsend knows what they're doing. <g> One day he cut  
        or drilled into the hull to mount something, and after he got through the  
        cold-molded outer shell he ran into -- compost! :o( From the outside the  
        boat looked great, from the inside it looked OK, in between was a layer of  
        very rotten wood, sandwiched between the cold-molded shell and a thin  
        layer of good wood on the inside of the planks. <sigh> He ground off the  
        cold-molded shell and discovered that just about every plank needed to be  
        replaced. He never got very far into the project before he lost heart, and  
        the boat was eventually broken up by the boatyard. If he'd never cut  
        through the outer shell maybe he'd have gone voyaging, and maybe the boat  
        would have brought him back. <shrug> After he knew that there wasn't much  
        of anything holding that outer shell to the rest of the boat he didn't  
        dare take her to sea.

        The example many people give of a boat that was cold-molded over  
        successfully is a British cutter that spends most of its time around South  
        Georgia -- where it's _cold_ and the rot spores are probably in  
        hibernation. <g> I'd be very suspicious of any traditionally built wooden  
        boat that had been covered with glass, using polyester or epoxy, or had  
        been shelled with cold-molding.

        On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:27:44 -0700, dave wrote:


        The vaitses method always makes me cringe when I hear about it. I guess  
        in the case of a boat with a really terminal hull, great interior and  
        great rig.... it might,just might, pay to do that, but if you're going  
        to build a new hull over the old one, why not cold mold? The part  
        nobody's talking about is fairing the new polyester hull. That's a huge  
        labor investment, unless you just don't care and decide to paint the raw  
        polyester, in which case you've built yourself a totally unsaleable  
        hulk. Either way, you've built yourself a totally unsaleable boat, so  
        you better love it for the 15 or so years it'll last before that  
        well-sheathed rot finishes its business; but if you fair it, at least  
        it'll look like a boat.
        ...


        --
        John (jkohnen@...)
        A fool and his money are soon elected. (Will Rogers)


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