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Re: [bolger] Aluminum Diablo?

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  • Harry James
    I would find the fumes from welding aluminum a much bigger hazard myself. Anybody I have had doing major welding for me has had a pressure mask with air from
    Message 1 of 14 , Oct 3, 2011
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      I would find the fumes from welding aluminum a much bigger hazard
      myself. Anybody I have had doing major welding for me has had a pressure
      mask with air from out side. I find the hazard from epoxy and fiberglass
      to be minimal, a half mask with organic cartridges is cheap and comfortable.

      HJ

      On 10/3/2011 7:17 AM, russelldawkins wrote:
      > Could someone please comment on the feasibility of building a Diablo in aluminum? My son and I have never used fiberglass and resin and either the people we talked to for advice are over-cautious or the fumes from the resin are something we would rather not deal with if there is a good alternative.
      > Thanks, Russell and Simon
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
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    • Pierce Nichols
      As Harry said, the fumes from welding aluminum are no picnic either. I ve never heard of them having a sensitizing effect, tho. Both techniques require
      Message 2 of 14 , Oct 3, 2011
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        As Harry said, the fumes from welding aluminum are no picnic either. I've never heard of them having a sensitizing effect, tho. Both techniques require appropriate PPE; epoxy and glass requires somewhat lighter weight PPE.

        -p

        On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 8:17 AM, russelldawkins <rdawkins@...> wrote:
        Could someone please comment on the feasibility of building a Diablo in aluminum? My son and I have never used fiberglass and resin and either the people we talked to for advice are over-cautious or the fumes from the resin are something we would rather not deal with if there is a good alternative.
        Thanks, Russell and Simon



        ------------------------------------

        Bolger rules!!!
        - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!!  Please!
        - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
        - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
        - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
        - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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      • BruceHallman
        ... Epoxy isn t the only possible glue. True, some people are allergic, and worse, some people become allergic to epoxy after exposure. That said, it is
        Message 3 of 14 , Oct 3, 2011
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          On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 8:17 AM, russelldawkins <rdawkins@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > Could someone please comment on the feasibility of building a Diablo in aluminum? My son and I have never used fiberglass and resin and either the people we talked to for advice are over-cautious or the fumes from the resin are something we would rather not deal with if there is a good alternative.
          > Thanks, Russell and Simon

          Epoxy isn't the only possible glue. True, some people are allergic,
          and worse, some people become allergic to epoxy after exposure. That
          said, it is smart to avoid exposure to the skin. And, to work with
          ventilation.

          Speaking only for myself, I have experienced that being careful to use
          gloves and keeping my shop open to the air has been fine so far.

          The three biggest risks I fear when boat building are: 1) getting
          crushed when the boat falls on you 2) chopping off fingers with power
          tools and 3) breathing colloidal silica dust (very nasty stuff).
          Epoxy allergic reaction is pretty far down my list of concerns and
          fears.
        • gravelyrider
          I think weight and cost would be the two biggest factors against an AL Diablo. But if you scrap a tin Diablo it s worth 70 cents a pound. not so with a
          Message 4 of 14 , Oct 4, 2011
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            I think weight and cost would be the two biggest factors against an AL Diablo. But if you scrap a tin Diablo it's worth 70 cents a pound. not so with a scrapped plywood boat.

            I built an AL PDR hull a few years ago to see if I wanted to / was capable of building a larger AL boat. With simple MIG and spoolgun and argon gas and a week of practice the hull went together easily. I used a Hobart handler 175 with miller 30xx spoolgun. The new Hobart 187 is supposed to weld rings around my old 175. I was welding .090 and .060 Al. A big boat would actually be easier 'cause you'd be welding thicker material. (but a diablo is NOT a bigger boat if you wish to keep the weight down)

            the secrets to good Al welding are:

            cleanliness, cleanliness and some more cleanliness plus patience, interspersed with lots of quick 2 inch welds in seemingly random locations.
          • Peter
            This is a question for Suzanne, but I ll toss in some amateur opinions. PCB had a huge amount of experience with plywood construction. Most of his small ply
            Message 5 of 14 , Oct 4, 2011
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              This is a question for Suzanne, but I'll toss in some amateur opinions.

              PCB had a huge amount of experience with plywood construction. Most of his small ply boats are just strong enough, and have just enough internal framing. The structure depends on both the strength and the flexibility of the panel material.

              Aluminum is different from plywood and a certain amount of expertize would be required to choose the thickness of the sheets and to adjust the internal framing for the best possible result. A rough and ready "I'll make sure it's strong enough" approach is likely to result in a boat that's heavier and more expensive than necessary.

              Aluminum doesn't come in 4x8 sheets, so the panel layout might be wasteful.

              Bottom line is you'd be better off with a boat designed from scratch for aluminum.
            • Chester Young
              How did the aluminum PDR perform? Was is comparable to a plywood version in weight, strength, and how was the sailing experience? Did the exposed aluminum
              Message 6 of 14 , Oct 4, 2011
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                How did the aluminum PDR perform?  Was is comparable to a plywood version in weight, strength, and how was the sailing experience?  Did the exposed aluminum get hot in the sun, I assume heat transfer through the hull to the water was efficient in that the wetted hull was the same temperature as the surround water.                    ~Caloosarat

                 

                From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gravelyrider
                Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 11:49 AM
                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [bolger] Re: Aluminum Diablo?

                 

                 


                I think weight and cost would be the two biggest factors against an AL Diablo. But if you scrap a tin Diablo it's worth 70 cents a pound. not so with a scrapped plywood boat.

                I built an AL PDR hull a few years ago to see if I wanted to / was capable of building a larger AL boat. With simple MIG and spoolgun and argon gas and a week of practice the hull went together easily. I used a Hobart handler 175 with miller 30xx spoolgun. The new Hobart 187 is supposed to weld rings around my old 175. I was welding .090 and .060 Al. A big boat would actually be easier 'cause you'd be welding thicker material. (but a diablo is NOT a bigger boat if you wish to keep the weight down)

                the secrets to good Al welding are:

                cleanliness, cleanliness and some more cleanliness plus patience, interspersed with lots of quick 2 inch welds in seemingly random locations.

              • Christopher C. Wetherill
                In addition to strength, gauge, and framing, she can address the requirement for flotation tanks to preserve your investment in event of swamping. V/R Chris
                Message 7 of 14 , Oct 4, 2011
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                  In addition to strength, gauge,  and framing,  she can address the requirement for flotation tanks to preserve your investment in event of swamping.

                  V/R
                  Chris

                  On 10/4/2011 12:07 PM, Peter wrote:
                  This is a question for Suzanne, but I'll toss in some amateur opinions.
                • dnjost
                  I think this is totally possible, but a pretty expensive way to go. Epoxy resin has far less fumes, and the glass is safe to work with if you take the
                  Message 8 of 14 , Oct 4, 2011
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                    I think this is totally possible, but a pretty expensive way to go. Epoxy resin has far less fumes, and the glass is safe to work with if you take the necessary precautions: Gloves, face mask, safety glasses, READ THE MSDS ON THE CANS.

                    You would have the homemade equivalent of a Grumman or Lund. I loved my Diablo, but my 18' Work Skiff is way more solid underfoot for fishing and clamming.

                    David Jost
                  • Mark Albanese
                    From the old CSD catalog. See that Bernie also promotes a plywood version.
                    Message 9 of 14 , Oct 5, 2011
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                    From the old CSD catalog. See that Bernie also promotes a plywood
                    version.
                  • russelldawkins
                    ... Thanks for all the responses. I think we will go with the designer-intended plywood and epoxy, if only to save weight. Any weight savings would be
                    Message 10 of 14 , Oct 8, 2011
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                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > From the old CSD catalog. See that Bernie also promotes a plywood
                      > version.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On Oct 4, 2011, at 3:46 PM, dnjost wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > > I think this is totally possible, but a pretty expensive way to go.
                      > > Epoxy resin has far less fumes, and the glass is safe to work with
                      > > if you take the necessary precautions: Gloves, face mask, safety
                      > > glasses, READ THE MSDS ON THE CANS.
                      > >
                      > > You would have the homemade equivalent of a Grumman or Lund. I
                      > > loved my Diablo, but my 18' Work Skiff is way more solid underfoot
                      > > for fishing and clamming.
                      > >
                      > > David Jost
                      > >
                      >
                      Thanks for all the responses. I think we will go with the designer-intended plywood and epoxy, if only to save weight. Any weight savings would be appreciated in use, I imagine.
                    • Mark Albanese
                      http://tinyurl.com/44bt6lc Before digging out your credit cards, note at Instantboats.com it s still listed as $16 + 5 shipping.
                      Message 11 of 14 , Oct 8, 2011
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                        Before digging out your credit cards, note at Instantboats.com it's still listed as $16 + 5 shipping.
                      • Christopher C. Wetherill
                        Same at WoodenBoat.
                        Message 12 of 14 , Oct 8, 2011
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                          Same at WoodenBoat.

                          On 10/8/2011 10:32 PM, Mark Albanese wrote:
                          Before digging out your credit cards, note at Instantboats.com it's still listed as $16 + 5 shipping.
                          __._,_
                        • John Kohnen
                          Reminds me of my $1,000 book. I never tire of telling the story, and welcome any excuse to trot it out. A while ago the eagerly awaited The Encyclopedia
                          Message 13 of 14 , Oct 9, 2011
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                            Reminds me of my $1,000 book. I never tire of telling the story, and
                            welcome any excuse to trot it out. <g> A while ago the eagerly awaited
                            "The Encyclopedia of Yacht Designers" by Lucia Del Sol Knight and Daniel
                            Bruce MacNaughton was finally printed. Unfortunately, they decided to go
                            for high-end production quality, and a price that ensured that it'd sell
                            mainly to institutions -- $250. :o( I've never paid $250 for a book. A few
                            years had passed, so I went looking on ABE for a used copy. There at the
                            end of a list of used ones starting at about $180 was a "New. Flawless
                            copy, brand new, pristine, never opened" copy for 981.08 plus $1.99
                            shipping!! A day or two later I was on Amazon.com and looked for the book
                            just for the heck of it. They had some "New. Flawless copy, brand new,
                            pristine, never opened" ones for $163.84 with FREE Super Saver Shipping! I
                            snatched one up. For a while after I got it I was afraid to open the
                            shrink wrap and destroy the value of my "$1,000 book". ;o)

                            http://preview.tinyurl.com/43shs24

                            On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 19:32:08 -0700, Mark A wrote:

                            > http://tinyurl.com/44bt6lc
                            > Before digging out your credit cards, note at Instantboats.com it's
                            > still listed as $16 + 5 shipping.


                            --
                            John (jkohnen@...)
                            Nobody ought to wear a Greek fisherman's hat unless they meet
                            two conditions: 1. He is a Greek; 2. He is a Fisherman (Roy
                            Blount Jr.)
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