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Re: Long Term Immersion of Micro-series Salient Keels

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  • daschultz2000
    ... My only suggestion is to glass every surface. Not for strength but because it facilitates making the epoxy thicker, slowing the migration of water on the
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 2, 2011
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      > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "c.ruzer" <c.ruzer@> wrote:
      > >
      > > What might be some alternate construction methods/treatments of keels such as those on the Micro and Long Micro if they aren't only immersed periodically for relatively short durations?.....<
      >


      My only suggestion is to glass every surface. Not for strength but because it facilitates making the epoxy thicker, slowing the migration of water on the molecular level. This may mean glassing plywood before assembly, and wrapping edges. Obviously it complicates the building process.

      Don
    • Paul
      ... I m still building a micro following Lenihan s approach - been at it for nearly 10 years now with home maintenance and business travel continuing to get in
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 3, 2011
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        > What might be some alternate construction methods/treatments of keels such as those on the Micro and Long Micro if they aren't only immersed periodically for relatively short durations? Would there be any noticeable difference in requirements for permanent immersion (6 months plus, say) in either salt or fresh water environments?
        >
        > There's Peter Lenihan's documented approach, if still available online, which, if memeory serves, was approved by PCB. Are there others? Was Peter's more for perceived increase in strength/durability than to do with continuous immersion? To fill or not to fill?
        >

        I'm still building a micro following Lenihan's approach - been at it for nearly 10 years now with home maintenance and business travel continuing to get in the way, but I'm not ready to give up just yet. I am following Peter's laminated deadwood keel approach for strength - there are strong currents and shallow rocks in my area, as there are in Peter's home waters on the St. Lawrence river, so I wanted a solid keel for many of the same reasons he did. My boat will be trailered, but I know Peter kept Lestat in the water near Montreal all summer for years, and when I saw the boat after several years of such treatment it still appeared very solid.

        I'm laminating the deadwood out of 2" mahogany with epoxy; I settled on these dimensions after reading Devlin's Boat Building which addresses such things.
        Am hoping to pour my lead in the next month or so... get the birdsmouth mainmast together in the basement over winter. Next year.... always next year...

        Paul Lefebvre
      • Paul
        ... Peter s articles are in the Duckworks archives: http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/micro2/index.htm
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 3, 2011
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          > There's Peter Lenihan's documented approach, if still available online...
          >

          Peter's articles are in the Duckworks archives:
          http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/micro2/index.htm
          http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/micro/index.htm


          -Paul
        • BruceHallman
          ... Considering that I have never heard of an example of the per plans Micro failing, the flip side of this question is: Is there any reason to attempt to
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 3, 2011
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            On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 7:18 PM, c.ruzer <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
            >
            > What might be some alternate construction methods/treatments of keels such as those on the Micro...


            Considering that I have never heard of an example of the "per plans"
            Micro failing, the flip side of this question is:

            Is there any reason to attempt to improve the Micro?

            Making things that are good enough to be 'better' (and more costly)
            isn't always wise.

            Isn't good enough good enough?
          • jdmeddock
            If a little added depth would be acceptable I think a Micro would be a good candidate for a concrete keel. You could cast the scrap lead in the bottom of the
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 3, 2011
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              If a little added depth would be acceptable I think a Micro would be a good candidate for a concrete keel. You could cast the scrap lead in the bottom of the keel
              (plombo-cement?!) but that would make recovery of the lead difficult in case of failure.
              But it would solve the much dreaded lead melting problem.
              Maybe a rebar/concrete keel to planned size with the lead bolted on as a shoe to optimize righting moment. Could maybe get by with less lead weight too.
              Build a cheap stuff keel sort of to plan and that is your form (in order to match curve of bottom accurately). Just use the Lenihan keelson , and cast your keel and shoe bolts in the concrete.

              I am assuming long-term afloat suggests trailering weight may be of reduced importantance.

              Justin

              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
              >
              > On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 7:18 PM, c.ruzer <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > What might be some alternate construction methods/treatments of keels such as those on the Micro...
              >
              >
              > Considering that I have never heard of an example of the "per plans"
              > Micro failing, the flip side of this question is:
              >
              > Is there any reason to attempt to improve the Micro?
              >
              > Making things that are good enough to be 'better' (and more costly)
              > isn't always wise.
              >
              > Isn't good enough good enough?
              >
            • William
              For the past three years I have kept my LM at a dock for approximately 6 months each year. I have not seen rot in the flooding keel. I did just cut a chunk of
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 4, 2011
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                For the past three years I have kept my LM at a dock for approximately 6 months each year. I have not seen rot in the flooding keel. I did just cut a chunk of rot from the side of my LM, at the water-line near the aft, free-flooding well. But so far the keel is as solid as the day I made it.
                Bill, in Tejas

                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
                >
                > On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 7:18 PM, c.ruzer <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > What might be some alternate construction methods/treatments of keels such as those on the Micro...
                >
                >
                > Considering that I have never heard of an example of the "per plans"
                > Micro failing, the flip side of this question is:
                >
                > Is there any reason to attempt to improve the Micro?
                >
                > Making things that are good enough to be 'better' (and more costly)
                > isn't always wise.
                >
                > Isn't good enough good enough?
                >
              • mike graf
                I d Like to have a LM at a dock! it s so easy to repair a ply boat......cut out the rot, make a plug, make a larger backing plate, gube it all up w/epoxy and
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 4, 2011
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                  I'd Like to have a LM at a dock!


                  it's so easy to repair a ply boat......cut out the rot, make a plug,
                  make a larger backing plate, gube it all up w/epoxy and screw it all
                  together....better technique reaps better finish

                  That Micro keel is a typical Bolger jab @ traditional construction...1/4
                  in ply for a keel! It's Bolger it works
                  Mike in Catskills





                  William wrote:
                  >
                  > For the past three years I have kept my LM at a dock for approximately
                  > 6 months each year. I have not seen rot in the flooding keel. I did
                  > just cut a chunk of rot from the side of my LM, at the water-line near
                  > the aft, free-flooding well. But so far the keel is as solid as the
                  > day I made it.
                  > Bill, in Tejas
                  >
                  > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 7:18 PM, c.ruzer <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > What might be some alternate construction methods/treatments of
                  > keels such as those on the Micro...
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Considering that I have never heard of an example of the "per plans"
                  > > Micro failing, the flip side of this question is:
                  > >
                  > > Is there any reason to attempt to improve the Micro?
                  > >
                  > > Making things that are good enough to be 'better' (and more costly)
                  > > isn't always wise.
                  > >
                  > > Isn't good enough good enough?
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                • Paul
                  ... Right you are Bruce - and let s not forget the time factor. When I started building my micro, coming from a background of fine strip canoe and kayak
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 4, 2011
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                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
                    > Considering that I have never heard of an example of the "per plans"
                    > Micro failing, the flip side of this question is:
                    >
                    > Is there any reason to attempt to improve the Micro?
                    >
                    > Making things that are good enough to be 'better' (and more costly)
                    > isn't always wise.
                    >
                    > Isn't good enough good enough?
                    >
                    Right you are Bruce - and let's not forget the time factor. When I started building my micro, coming from a background of fine strip canoe and kayak building, I still felt the need to improve on things and make my minimalist plywood sailboat into a gold-plater. But deviating from the plans means lots of time rethinking many things that the designer already took care of for you; following the plans means you can work much more quickly. If I'd stuck to the original plans and scantlings I'd probably have had many happy years sailing my micro by now, instead of having a nearly finished boat still lurking in the boatshed by the garage.
                  • Pat
                    I decided to seal up the flooding holes in my LM keel. I did this because when I laminated the ply sides of the keel to the internal frame I did not get a
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 5, 2011
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                      I decided to seal up the flooding holes in my LM keel. I did this
                      because when I laminated the ply sides of the keel to the internal
                      frame I did not get a perfect seal. I found this out later when the
                      boat was complete and out of curiosity I filled the keel with water. I
                      imagined that the screws piercing the plywood would expose the ply to
                      mousture on the interior. By sealing you gain 150lbs of extra
                      flotation which could be offset by internal ballast in the form of
                      water tanks or sand bags ect. She is not in the water yet but will let
                      you all know how she floats
                      Cheers Pat
                    • BruceHallman
                      ... This extra flotation is down low, exactly where you don t want it. In the Long Micro, the 532 pounds of down low lead ballast is negated by 150 lbs of
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 6, 2011
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                        On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 8:41 PM, Pat <patjah@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > mousture on the interior. By sealing you gain 150lbs of extra
                        > flotation which could be offset by internal ballast in the form of
                        > water tanks or sand bags ect.


                        This extra flotation is down low, exactly where you don't want it.

                        In the Long Micro, the 532 pounds of 'down low' lead ballast is
                        'negated' by 150 lbs of 'down low' air buoyancy, and made less
                        effective.

                        The flooded keel can be seen as being as water ballast in the Micro designs.
                      • c.ruzer
                        ... The Wolfard ad is suggestive of intermitent immersed recreation time use: She is easy to trailer and can be pulled by a four cylinder compact car. I
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 10, 2011
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                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "alefoot" <dgw@...> wrote:
                          > Although it seems many Micros are used as trailer boats, I don't recall brief immersion being mentioned as part of the original design spec.


                          The Wolfard ad is suggestive of intermitent immersed recreation time use: "She is easy to trailer and can be pulled by a four cylinder compact car." I recall something also La Rowe wrote about commisioning the design and requesting an easy launch and retrieval amongst the other things for older folk.

                          > Maybe my poor memory. Anyway, I recall PCB writing that the idea was to avoid unhelpful swelling stresses and unwarranted expense. Our Micro has happily spent months [entire summers] on a mooring, built
                          > more or less to spec.

                          That's good to hear.


                          > Liberal epoxy coating of the inside of the flooded cavities before closure, exterior glassing below waterline. Doug. fir and Meranti
                          > marine ply. I would do the same again. Micro is well proven.

                          Again good to hear that.


                          I've come across Swallow Boats 'Bayrider 17' instructions for the water ballast tank internal surfaces before permanent closing up. They apparently call for two additional coats of some WEST System (I assume all ply surfaces already have one coat) followed by two pack epoxy paint suited for continuous immersion.

                          Is such a two pack paint step really needed, I wonder. Extra insurance?


                          >
                          > >...Was Peter's more for perceived increase in strength/durability than to do with continuous immersion? To fill or not to fill?<
                          >
                          > You would have to ask Peter for a real answer [he's active on the WoodenBoat forum], but I recall him writing something [I'm paraphrasing] about wanting to do things the 'right way' when he built Lestat.


                          Speak a the devil... look who's dropped by.
                        • c.ruzer
                          ... Gotchya. Thanks.
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 10, 2011
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                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@...> wrote:

                            > My only suggestion is to glass every surface. Not for strength but because it facilitates making the epoxy thicker, slowing the migration of water on the molecular level.


                            Gotchya. Thanks.
                          • c.ruzer
                            Justin, if ya gunna have keel/shoe bolts intruding into the water tight volume perhaps ya could have a galvanised steel keel (after Storm Petrel) with a lead
                            Message 13 of 20 , Oct 10, 2011
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                              Justin, if ya gunna have keel/shoe bolts intruding into the water tight volume perhaps ya could have a galvanised steel keel (after Storm Petrel) with a lead filled bulb?


                              Yes the query relates to very limited trailering, long term immersion in mainly warm salt water, probably shifted over dryland just the once. Occaisional drying anchorages. Maximum reasonable seaworthiness for, say, two to four years.


                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "jdmeddock" <jmeddock@...> wrote:

                              > If a little added depth would be acceptable I think a Micro would be a good candidate for a concrete keel. You could cast the scrap lead in the bottom of the keel
                              > (plombo-cement?!) but that would make recovery of the lead difficult in case of failure.
                              > But it would solve the much dreaded lead melting problem.
                              > Maybe a rebar/concrete keel to planned size with the lead bolted on as a shoe to optimize righting moment. Could maybe get by with less lead weight too.
                              > Build a cheap stuff keel sort of to plan and that is your form (in order to match curve of bottom accurately). Just use the Lenihan keelson , and cast your keel and shoe bolts in the concrete.
                              >
                              > I am assuming long-term afloat suggests trailering weight may be of reduced importantance.
                              >
                              > Justin
                            • c.ruzer
                              That s mostly been in fresh water too, hasn t it Bill? Very good. How does one see much inside the keel?
                              Message 14 of 20 , Oct 10, 2011
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                                That's mostly been in fresh water too, hasn't it Bill? Very good. How does one see much inside the keel?

                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "William" <kingw@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > For the past three years I have kept my LM at a dock for approximately 6 months each year. I have not seen rot in the flooding keel. I did just cut a chunk of rot from the side of my LM, at the water-line near the aft, free-flooding well. But so far the keel is as solid as the day I made it.
                                > Bill, in Tejas
                              • c.ruzer
                                ... Cool. ... Devlin s... right. Thanks for the feedback Paul. Hey, good luck with getting that lead done soon.
                                Message 15 of 20 , Oct 10, 2011
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                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <lefebeaver@...> wrote:
                                  > I'm still building a micro following Lenihan's approach - been at it for nearly 10 years now with home maintenance and business travel continuing to get in the way, but I'm not ready to give up just yet. I am following Peter's laminated deadwood keel approach for strength - there are strong currents and shallow rocks in my area, as there are in Peter's home waters on the St. Lawrence river, so I wanted a solid keel for many of the same reasons he did. My boat will be trailered, but I know Peter kept Lestat in the water near Montreal all summer for years, and when I saw the boat after several years of such
                                  > treatment it still appeared very solid.

                                  Cool.


                                  > I'm laminating the deadwood out of 2" mahogany with epoxy; I settled on these dimensions after reading Devlin's Boat Building which addresses such things.
                                  > Am hoping to pour my lead in the next month or so... get the birdsmouth mainmast together in the basement over winter. Next year.... always next year...
                                  >
                                  > Paul Lefebvre


                                  Devlin's... right. Thanks for the feedback Paul. Hey, good luck with getting that lead done soon.
                                • c.ruzer
                                  ... It s not failure in the first instance, but down the track. Quite a few have been given the chop due to rot. Some didn t last long at all. If the keel is
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Oct 10, 2011
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                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 7:18 PM, c.ruzer <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > What might be some alternate construction methods/treatments of keels such as those on the Micro...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Considering that I have never heard of an example of the "per plans"
                                    > Micro failing, the flip side of this question is:


                                    It's not failure in the first instance, but down the track. Quite a few have been given the chop due to rot. Some didn't last long at all. If the keel is almost always immersed in salt water, ie. untrailered, then perhaps that alone may be sufficient to prevent the dastardly rot.

                                    As for other sticky encounters with marine biota, maybe rot too, how about sheathing the keel with copper sheet nailed on? But how, without interfering with any glass sheathing?
                                  • BruceHallman
                                    ... I am surprised to read this. I think I have been trying to pay attention to reports of rot in Micro keels, and somehow I have missed this news.
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Oct 11, 2011
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                                      On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 4:07 PM, c.ruzer <c.ruzer@...> wrote:

                                      >Quite a few have been given the chop due to rot.

                                      I am surprised to read this. I think I have been trying to pay
                                      attention to reports of rot in Micro keels, and somehow I have missed
                                      this news.
                                    • c.ruzer
                                      I meant rot issues generally (probably about the only reason a Micro gets the chop) Bruce, but mindful that no doubt some would be in the keel. The designed
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Oct 13, 2011
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                                        I meant rot issues generally (probably about the only reason a Micro gets the chop) Bruce, but mindful that no doubt some would be in the keel. The designed keel is proven mechanically/structurally, if sound.
                                        The consensus appears to be if built/finnished well it'll last. The question then for the inside/outside is "what is the *best* way to do that for lasting effect"?



                                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 4:07 PM, c.ruzer <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >Quite a few have been given the chop due to rot.
                                        >
                                        > I am surprised to read this. I think I have been trying to pay
                                        > attention to reports of rot in Micro keels, and somehow I have missed
                                        > this news.
                                        >
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