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Re: Oldshoe Review!

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  • tfpainter1422
    That s exactly what happened in my case if my fuzzy memories of it are correct. It was because I didn t have the miz squared out (inexperience with the rig). I
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 2, 2011
      That's exactly what happened in my case if my fuzzy memories of it are correct. It was because I didn't have the miz squared out (inexperience with the rig). I would be under double reefs today in the kind of winds I was sailing under full sail that day.

      I thought broaching had more to do with a boat being so overpowered that the underwater foils lose their lift and the boat becomes out of control. I don't think it has to do with wave action per se. But could be wrong...


      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Myles J. Swift" <mswift@...> wrote:
      >
      > Also if this happened running downwind, it could be a mizzen problem. Munro
      > used to drop Egret's mizzen when running the inlets to make sure the boat
      > was pulled by the bow.
      >
      >
      >
      > MylesJ
      >
    • David
      Bruce I believe you are right. In my case I was galloping along at close to hull speed, all very nice and stable thankyou, sailing quite nicely downwind. The
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 8, 2011
        Bruce

        I believe you are right. In my case I was galloping along at close to hull speed, all very nice and stable thankyou, sailing quite nicely downwind.

        The problem came as I rounded a headland, zoomed down a wave into a trough and took water in large quantities, first through the transom step and then over the top of the bow transom. Once the front anchor well starts to fill with water it pulls the bow down and the stern up.

        The bottom of the mainsail driving her into the wave, was then caught by the wave and the rest is history.

        Some water got through the hatch into the "airtight compartment" as water was scooped in over the bow. This possibly explains why she did not lie on her side. We did with two adults though, and she rounded up perfectly into the wind without sailing away, although she was blowing away.

        I admit my capsize was mainly MY OWN FAULT. I should have had a reef or two in the main, and probably should have gone home as most everybody else had done by then. The problem is she feels so stable and safe that you really don't want to...

        Regards,


        David

        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
        >
        > On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 4:01 PM, daschultz2000
        > <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
        >
        > > The other one that I read about made it clear the flat bow struck the next wave, and the boat immediately broached.
        >
        > I believe that broaching is most often caused by a displacement hull
        > exceeding its hull speed. Perhaps what happened is that the hull
        > surfed down the face of one wave and gained too much speed?
        >
      • Myles J. Swift
        I have that same problem with Micro, going out when the Santanas and San Juans are coming in. One reef and I m good for a nice comfortable ride in force 5
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 9, 2011

          I have that same problem with Micro, going out when the Santanas and San Juans are coming in. One reef and I’m good for a nice comfortable ride in force 5 winds.

           

          MylesJ

        • David
          Gregg The more I think about it, the more I think you and Bruce, and most others answering this post are right. I don t think the vertical transom is
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 9, 2011
            Gregg

            The more I think about it, the more I think you and Bruce, and most others answering this post are right. I don't think the vertical transom is instrumental in causing the broach.

            However, there are two ways I believe Oldshoes blunt bow is probably less forgiving than Micro's or Long Micro's would be:

            1) The mast in Oldshoe is stepped on the bottom strut of the Bow Transom, unlike Micro and LM which each have a separate step providing a short but wide forefoot. In actual fact, with Oldshoe nose down (an unusual occurrence) the sail actually is levering the bow down and into the water.

            2) Because of her short length, when the blunt bow slams into chop, it stops her and, I believe, increases her tendency to trip, causing the bow well to fill with water through the step, compounded with being caught by the following wave... and the rest is history.

            In any case, a more prudent captain (with a reef or two) and bunging the step in the bow transom should solve most of this issue.

            The main problem with the blunt bow is being slowed by motorboat chop and I can't see a way round that.

            David
            Santiago, Chile


            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory" <gregg.carlson@...> wrote:
            >
            > A broach is when a boat turns suddenly. The classic broach happens on a broach reach or downwind, with lots of canvas and the skipper perhaps underestimating wind speed. The weather helm - due to the turning moment of the wide-set sail - overwhelms the rudder, especially if it ventilates and/or stalls due to high angle of attack and you are spun into beam reach with too much sail. Spinnakers are also very helpful in the upcoming capsize since they'll roll downwind.
            >
            > To be fair to the Old Shoe, you can broach any boat. Obviously the bigger and heavier the more extreme the conditions (and poorer seamanship) required. Your tiller angle is a really good indicator of things to come.
            >
            > All small boats can capsize, but the blunt bow and short rudder are certainly not going to be helpful in a hard-pressed Old Shoe. A thump on the bow at the wrong moment is going to be helpful in lifting the rudder for ventilation - and off you go.
            >
            > I was able to capsize my Micro in a big puff, but I don't think the bluff bow is a big problem for any of the square boats, and probably none at all for the heavy ones. The rudder is the issue, but these designs do a great job drawing next to no water, and you can't have it both ways.
            >
            > It's really not a design fault or a problem except to those that also believe a 12-passenger van ought to beat a Veyron around a race track.
            >
            > Gregg
            >
          • Joe T
            Many factors, but. My Oldshoe never broached, probably because I stayed out of the rough stuff. The plan showed no end plate on Oldshoe but I saw it on other
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 9, 2011
              Many factors, but. My Oldshoe never broached, probably because I stayed out of the rough stuff. The plan showed no end plate on Oldshoe but I saw it on other Bolger designs and added it to mine in 1988. (Oh my, 23 years.) I can see why it could add more authority to a shoal rudder. It could be a wise retrofit. Mine is about 5 inches wide, tapered forward and rounded aft.

              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory" <gregg.carlson@...> wrote:
              >
              > ...A broach is when a boat turns suddenly. The classic broach
              > happens The rudder is the issue, but these designs do a great job > drawing next to no water, and you can't have it both ways....
              >
              > Gregg
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