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Re: Oldshoe Review!

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  • Gregory
    A broach is when a boat turns suddenly. The classic broach happens on a broach reach or downwind, with lots of canvas and the skipper perhaps underestimating
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 2, 2011
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      A broach is when a boat turns suddenly. The classic broach happens on a broach reach or downwind, with lots of canvas and the skipper perhaps underestimating wind speed. The weather helm - due to the turning moment of the wide-set sail - overwhelms the rudder, especially if it ventilates and/or stalls due to high angle of attack and you are spun into beam reach with too much sail. Spinnakers are also very helpful in the upcoming capsize since they'll roll downwind.

      To be fair to the Old Shoe, you can broach any boat. Obviously the bigger and heavier the more extreme the conditions (and poorer seamanship) required. Your tiller angle is a really good indicator of things to come.

      All small boats can capsize, but the blunt bow and short rudder are certainly not going to be helpful in a hard-pressed Old Shoe. A thump on the bow at the wrong moment is going to be helpful in lifting the rudder for ventilation - and off you go.

      I was able to capsize my Micro in a big puff, but I don't think the bluff bow is a big problem for any of the square boats, and probably none at all for the heavy ones. The rudder is the issue, but these designs do a great job drawing next to no water, and you can't have it both ways.

      It's really not a design fault or a problem except to those that also believe a 12-passenger van ought to beat a Veyron around a race track.

      Gregg


      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Fascinating, two reports of capsized Old Shoes?! Wow.
      > >
      >
      >
      > The other one that I read about made it clear the flat bow struck the next wave, and the boat immediately broached. Something one will need to avoid with that design. Perhaps the Old Shoe, because of its length/beam and even the mizzen is prone to that behavior even in a coastal situation. And perhaps the whole family of flat bowed ASxx's can demonstrate that behavior if they are in just the right situation for a particular hull.
      >
      > But if that were so, it seems like the Micro at least would have a reputation for the behavior by now since there are many of them.
      >
    • William
      I have to agree with Bruce on this point. The flat, transom bow on my Long Micro has never struck me as relevant to impeding headway or causing a broach (and
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 2, 2011
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        I have to agree with Bruce on this point. The flat, transom bow on my Long Micro has never struck me as relevant to impeding headway or causing a broach (and I have never come close to broaching my LM). I have also had my LM running downwind at 8.2 knots (SOG) in waves at least 50 inches from trough to crest (the height at which I can no longer see the horizon from the bottom of the trough) and not come close to exceeding the speed of the waves rolling-in from astern.
        I guess it is possible to exceed the speed of the waves and bury the bow into a wave, but I have never done it running downwind. This speed far exceeds the theoretical hullspeed of the LM (5.6 knts?), but I notice no differences in tracking between 3 knots downwind or 6+ knots downwind.

        I don't doubt that people have broached their Oldshoes if they say they have. I don't think the flat bow is the cause. Were they really sailing faster than the waves (*raises eyebrows quizzically*)? I'd like to hear more.

        These box sharpies look funny, and many dock-side critics ascribe poor sailing qualities to these boats just by eyeballing them. These critics are misinformed but, like us all, they have keyboards and internet connections and their rumors and misinformation spread. I just want to point out that my experiences with my LM (which is bigger and heavier than an Oldshoe. This probably matters) have all been very positive when sailing at my limits. These things are well-mannered, predictable, tolerant of fools, stable, and they sail well. They do not pound sailing to windward and they alleged slapping and pounding at anchor is far overblown. Broaching has never struck me as a serious concern. I realize I sound like a zealot or defender of the box sharpie. I am.


        Bill, in Texas
        Long Micro Pugnacious

        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
        >
        > On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 6:15 PM, daschultz2000
        > <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I believe that broaching is most often caused by a displacement hull
        > > > exceeding its hull speed. Perhaps what happened is that the hull
        > > > surfed down the face of one wave and gained too much speed?
        > > >
        > >
        > > Yes. That fits with the description of the situation. The writer described the boat heading down the face of the wave, the bow striking the next wave and stopping the boat, except the back of the boat kept coming, broaching the hull.
        > >
        > > Don
        >
        > I am not sure that the bluntness of the transomed bow increases the
        > risk broaching due to its bluntness. When I look at designs intended
        > for bar crossing or inlet running, they all seem to have in common the
        > character of plenty of reserve buoyancy in the bow. This, I deduce,
        > is intended to allow the bow to float high upon encountering the
        > backside of a wave when surfing.
        >
        > (Also, I see in the Inlet Running boats a converse, low reserve
        > buoyancy in the stern; which also would help the bow to float high
        > when encountering the backside of a wave.)
        >
        > In other words, I don't think the goal in avoiding broaches is for the
        > bow to cut through the next wave, but rather it is for the bow to rise
        > up when it hits the backside of the next wave. I think it is
        > misguided to point to "the bow stopping the boat", and if anything a
        > transomed bow would have better reserve buoyancy characteristics than
        > a knife edge bow.
        >
      • Christopher C. Wetherill
        My understanding of the usual cause of broaching has been that a following sea running faster then the boat picks up the stern and it falls off the front of
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 2, 2011
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          My understanding of the usual cause of broaching has been that a following sea running faster then the boat picks up the stern and it falls off the front of the wave.

          V/R
          Chris

          On 8/2/2011 12:00 PM, William wrote:
          I have to agree with Bruce on this point.  The flat, transom bow on my Long Micro has never struck me as relevant to impeding headway or causing a broach (and I have never come close to broaching my LM).  I have also had my LM running downwind at 8.2 knots (SOG) in waves at least 50 inches from trough to crest (the height at which I can no longer see the horizon from the bottom of the trough) and not come close to exceeding the speed of the waves rolling-in from astern.  
          I guess it is possible to exceed the speed of the waves and bury the bow into a wave, but I have never done it running downwind.  This speed far exceeds the theoretical hullspeed of the LM (5.6 knts?), but I notice no differences in tracking between 3 knots downwind or 6+ knots downwind. 
          
          I don't doubt that people have broached their Oldshoes if they say they have.  I don't think the flat bow is the cause. Were they really sailing faster than the waves (*raises eyebrows quizzically*)? I'd like to hear more.
          
          These box sharpies look funny, and many dock-side critics ascribe poor sailing qualities to these boats just by eyeballing them.  These critics are misinformed but, like us all, they have keyboards and internet connections and their rumors and misinformation spread.  I just want to point out that my experiences with my LM (which is bigger and heavier than an Oldshoe. This probably matters) have all been very positive when sailing at my limits.  These things are well-mannered, predictable, tolerant of fools, stable, and they sail well.  They do not pound sailing to windward and they alleged slapping and pounding at anchor is far overblown. Broaching has never struck me as a serious concern.  I realize I sound like a zealot or defender of the box sharpie.  I am.
          
          
          Bill, in Texas
          Long Micro Pugnacious
          
          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
          
          On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 6:15 PM, daschultz2000
          <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
          
          
          
          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@> wrote:
          
          I believe that broaching is most often caused by a displacement hull
          exceeding its hull speed. Perhaps what happened is that the hull
          surfed down the face of one wave and gained too much speed?
          
          
          Yes. That fits with the description of the situation. The writer described the boat heading down the face of the wave, the bow striking the next wave and stopping the boat, except the back of the boat kept coming, broaching the hull.
          
          Don
          
          I am not sure that the bluntness of the transomed bow increases the
          risk broaching due to its bluntness.  When I look at designs intended
          for bar crossing or inlet running, they all seem to have in common the
          character of plenty of reserve buoyancy in the bow.  This, I deduce,
          is intended to allow the bow to float high upon encountering the
          backside of a wave when surfing.
          
          (Also, I see in the Inlet Running boats a converse, low reserve
          buoyancy in the stern; which also would help the bow to float high
          when encountering the backside of a wave.)
          
          In other words, I don't think the goal in avoiding broaches is for the
          bow to cut through the next wave, but rather it is for the bow to rise
          up when it hits the backside of the next wave.  I think it is
          misguided to point to "the bow stopping the boat", and if anything a
          transomed bow would have better reserve buoyancy characteristics than
          a knife edge bow.
          
          
          
          
          
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        • John and Kathy Trussell
          What follows is partially conjecture, but I am guessing that the Old Shoes were being held on course with considerable rudder. Old Shoes are fairly short boats
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 2, 2011
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            What follows is partially conjecture, but I am guessing that the Old Shoes were being held on course with considerable rudder. Old Shoes are fairly short boats and when the boat went over the crest of the wave, the bow went down, the stern came up, and enough of the rudder came up out of the water so that the rudder became ineffective. A broach ensued. I think that this reflects more on short, beamy boats with shallow rudders and keels than it does on bow transoms. In both cases, putting in a reef and slowing down probably would have been a good idea…

             

            JohnT

             


            From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto: bolger@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of William
            Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 12:00 PM
            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [bolger] Re: Oldshoe Review!

             

             

            I have to agree with Bruce on this point. The flat, transom bow on my Long Micro has never struck me as relevant to impeding headway or causing a broach (and I have never come close to broaching my LM). I have also had my LM running downwind at 8.2 knots (SOG) in waves at least 50 inches from trough to crest (the height at which I can no longer see the horizon from the bottom of the trough) and not come close to exceeding the speed of the waves rolling-in from astern.
            I guess it is possible to exceed the speed of the waves and bury the bow into a wave, but I have never done it running downwind. This speed far exceeds the theoretical hullspeed of the LM (5.6 knts?), but I notice no differences in tracking between 3 knots downwind or 6+ knots downwind.

            I don't doubt that people have broached their Oldshoes if they say they have. I don't think the flat bow is the cause. Were they really sailing faster than the waves (*raises eyebrows quizzically*)? I'd like to hear more.

            These box sharpies look funny, and many dock-side critics ascribe poor sailing qualities to these boats just by eyeballing them. These critics are misinformed but, like us all, they have keyboards and internet connections and their rumors and misinformation spread. I just want to point out that my experiences with my LM (which is bigger and heavier than an Oldshoe. This probably matters) have all been very positive when sailing at my limits. These things are well-mannered, predictable, tolerant of fools, stable, and they sail well. They do not pound sailing to windward and they alleged slapping and pounding at anchor is far overblown. Broaching has never struck me as a serious concern. I realize I sound like a zealot or defender of the box sharpie. I am.

            Bill, in Texas
            Long Micro Pugnacious

            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:

            >
            > On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 6:15 PM, daschultz2000
            > <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com,
            BruceHallman <hallman@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > I believe that broaching is most often caused by a displacement
            hull
            > > > exceeding its hull speed. Perhaps what happened is that the hull
            > > > surfed down the face of one wave and gained too much speed?
            > > >
            > >
            > > Yes. That fits with the description of the situation. The writer
            described the boat heading down the face of the wave, the bow striking the next wave and stopping the boat, except the back of the boat kept coming, broaching the hull.
            > >
            > > Don
            >
            > I am not sure that the bluntness of the transomed bow increases the
            > risk broaching due to its bluntness. When I look at designs intended
            > for bar crossing or inlet running, they all seem to have in common the
            > character of plenty of reserve buoyancy in the bow. This, I deduce,
            > is intended to allow the bow to float high upon encountering the
            > backside of a wave when surfing.
            >
            > (Also, I see in the Inlet Running boats a converse, low reserve
            > buoyancy in the stern; which also would help the bow to float high
            > when encountering the backside of a wave.)
            >
            > In other words, I don't think the goal in avoiding broaches is for the
            > bow to cut through the next wave, but rather it is for the bow to rise
            > up when it hits the backside of the next wave. I think it is
            > misguided to point to "the bow stopping the boat", and if
            anything a
            > transomed bow would have better reserve buoyancy characteristics than
            > a knife edge bow.
            >

          • Chester Young
            Not sure how relevant this experience is to the current debate but broaching is not limited to just sail power. Early on in ownership of EstherMae (Tennessee)
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 2, 2011
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              Not sure how relevant this experience is to the current debate but broaching is not limited to just sail power.  Early on in ownership of EstherMae (Tennessee) while running down the river parallel to the Intra Coastal Waterway at about 12 mph, we were passed by a much larger and faster yacht (say 60’ doing 20 mph).  When that wake passed from behind the first thing that I noticed was a definite increase in speed say maybe up to 16 mph+.  It should have been accompanied by warning bells in my head, but as I say “early on in ownership”.  The next thing was the angle of the boat changed as the first trough of the set passed under the bow, putting us “running downhill”  The next thing was a sideways slide as the bow dug into the water (rooting is the term I do believe) and that turned the boat sideways to the wake while simultaneously heeling the boat to the point that the engine came out of the water as the crest of the next wake in the set passed under the stern into the center of the boat.  Not the thing to do, especially with your wife in the boat.  Once the motor cleared the water combined with the major heel the speed lose was dramatic.  Throttling back occurred along with a lecture from my wife on why she does not like being anywhere near the ICW.  I have not repeated those exact same circumstance majorly due to greater recognition of the ability for a large yacht to cause a “wipe out” but also due to the escalation of fuel costs and a lot less 60 footers running 20 mph passing me.

               

              Now into our 7th year of ownership with over 5,000 miles logged via GPS, ( when I remember to turn it on) and approaching 900 hours on the engine.

               

              Point of note, when I sail offshore speed is expressed in knots, when running inshore mph seems more fitting and easier for people to relate to.   Any comments on that would be appreciated.  Also would note that I have not been offshore sailing in several years, too busy driving around inshore along the southwest coast of Florida in a Tennessee. 

               

              ~Caloosarat

               

              From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher C. Wetherill
              Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 1:03 PM
              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Oldshoe Review!

               

               

              My understanding of the usual cause of broaching has been that a following sea running faster then the boat picks up the stern and it falls off the front of the wave.

              V/R
              Chris

              On 8/2/2011 12:00 PM, William wrote:

              I have to agree with Bruce on this point.  The flat, transom bow on my Long Micro has never struck me as relevant to impeding headway or causing a broach (and I have never come close to broaching my LM).  I have also had my LM running downwind at 8.2 knots (SOG) in waves at least 50 inches from trough to crest (the height at which I can no longer see the horizon from the bottom of the trough) and not come close to exceeding the speed of the waves rolling-in from astern.  
              I guess it is possible to exceed the speed of the waves and bury the bow into a wave, but I have never done it running downwind.  This speed far exceeds the theoretical hullspeed of the LM (5.6 knts?), but I notice no differences in tracking between 3 knots downwind or 6+ knots downwind. 
                
              I don't doubt that people have broached their Oldshoes if they say they have.  I don't think the flat bow is the cause. Were they really sailing faster than the waves (*raises eyebrows quizzically*)? I'd like to hear more.
                
              These box sharpies look funny, and many dock-side critics ascribe poor sailing qualities to these boats just by eyeballing them.  These critics are misinformed but, like us all, they have keyboards and internet connections and their rumors and misinformation spread.  I just want to point out that my experiences with my LM (which is bigger and heavier than an Oldshoe. This probably matters) have all been very positive when sailing at my limits.  These things are well-mannered, predictable, tolerant of fools, stable, and they sail well.  They do not pound sailing to windward and they alleged slapping and pounding at anchor is far overblown. Broaching has never struck me as a serious concern.  I realize I sound like a zealot or defender of the box sharpie.  I am.
                
                
              Bill, in Texas
              Long Micro Pugnacious
                
              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
                
              On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 6:15 PM, daschultz2000
              <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
                
                
                
              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@> wrote:
                
              I believe that broaching is most often caused by a displacement hull
              exceeding its hull speed. Perhaps what happened is that the hull
              surfed down the face of one wave and gained too much speed?
                
                
              Yes. That fits with the description of the situation. The writer described the boat heading down the face of the wave, the bow striking the next wave and stopping the boat, except the back of the boat kept coming, broaching the hull.
                
              Don
                
              I am not sure that the bluntness of the transomed bow increases the
              risk broaching due to its bluntness.  When I look at designs intended
              for bar crossing or inlet running, they all seem to have in common the
              character of plenty of reserve buoyancy in the bow.  This, I deduce,
              is intended to allow the bow to float high upon encountering the
              backside of a wave when surfing.
                
              (Also, I see in the Inlet Running boats a converse, low reserve
              buoyancy in the stern; which also would help the bow to float high
              when encountering the backside of a wave.)
                
              In other words, I don't think the goal in avoiding broaches is for the
              bow to cut through the next wave, but rather it is for the bow to rise
              up when it hits the backside of the next wave.  I think it is
              misguided to point to "the bow stopping the boat", and if anything a
              transomed bow would have better reserve buoyancy characteristics than
              a knife edge bow.
                
                
                
                
                
              ------------------------------------
                
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            • Myles J. Swift
              Also if this happened running downwind, it could be a mizzen problem. Munro used to drop Egret s mizzen when running the inlets to make sure the boat was
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 2, 2011
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                Also if this happened running downwind, it could be a mizzen problem. Munro used to drop Egret’s mizzen when running the inlets to make sure the boat was pulled by the bow.

                 

                MylesJ

              • tfpainter1422
                That s exactly what happened in my case if my fuzzy memories of it are correct. It was because I didn t have the miz squared out (inexperience with the rig). I
                Message 7 of 24 , Aug 2, 2011
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                  That's exactly what happened in my case if my fuzzy memories of it are correct. It was because I didn't have the miz squared out (inexperience with the rig). I would be under double reefs today in the kind of winds I was sailing under full sail that day.

                  I thought broaching had more to do with a boat being so overpowered that the underwater foils lose their lift and the boat becomes out of control. I don't think it has to do with wave action per se. But could be wrong...


                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Myles J. Swift" <mswift@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Also if this happened running downwind, it could be a mizzen problem. Munro
                  > used to drop Egret's mizzen when running the inlets to make sure the boat
                  > was pulled by the bow.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > MylesJ
                  >
                • David
                  Bruce I believe you are right. In my case I was galloping along at close to hull speed, all very nice and stable thankyou, sailing quite nicely downwind. The
                  Message 8 of 24 , Aug 8, 2011
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                    Bruce

                    I believe you are right. In my case I was galloping along at close to hull speed, all very nice and stable thankyou, sailing quite nicely downwind.

                    The problem came as I rounded a headland, zoomed down a wave into a trough and took water in large quantities, first through the transom step and then over the top of the bow transom. Once the front anchor well starts to fill with water it pulls the bow down and the stern up.

                    The bottom of the mainsail driving her into the wave, was then caught by the wave and the rest is history.

                    Some water got through the hatch into the "airtight compartment" as water was scooped in over the bow. This possibly explains why she did not lie on her side. We did with two adults though, and she rounded up perfectly into the wind without sailing away, although she was blowing away.

                    I admit my capsize was mainly MY OWN FAULT. I should have had a reef or two in the main, and probably should have gone home as most everybody else had done by then. The problem is she feels so stable and safe that you really don't want to...

                    Regards,


                    David

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 4:01 PM, daschultz2000
                    > <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > The other one that I read about made it clear the flat bow struck the next wave, and the boat immediately broached.
                    >
                    > I believe that broaching is most often caused by a displacement hull
                    > exceeding its hull speed. Perhaps what happened is that the hull
                    > surfed down the face of one wave and gained too much speed?
                    >
                  • Myles J. Swift
                    I have that same problem with Micro, going out when the Santanas and San Juans are coming in. One reef and I m good for a nice comfortable ride in force 5
                    Message 9 of 24 , Aug 9, 2011
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                      I have that same problem with Micro, going out when the Santanas and San Juans are coming in. One reef and I’m good for a nice comfortable ride in force 5 winds.

                       

                      MylesJ

                    • David
                      Gregg The more I think about it, the more I think you and Bruce, and most others answering this post are right. I don t think the vertical transom is
                      Message 10 of 24 , Aug 9, 2011
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                        Gregg

                        The more I think about it, the more I think you and Bruce, and most others answering this post are right. I don't think the vertical transom is instrumental in causing the broach.

                        However, there are two ways I believe Oldshoes blunt bow is probably less forgiving than Micro's or Long Micro's would be:

                        1) The mast in Oldshoe is stepped on the bottom strut of the Bow Transom, unlike Micro and LM which each have a separate step providing a short but wide forefoot. In actual fact, with Oldshoe nose down (an unusual occurrence) the sail actually is levering the bow down and into the water.

                        2) Because of her short length, when the blunt bow slams into chop, it stops her and, I believe, increases her tendency to trip, causing the bow well to fill with water through the step, compounded with being caught by the following wave... and the rest is history.

                        In any case, a more prudent captain (with a reef or two) and bunging the step in the bow transom should solve most of this issue.

                        The main problem with the blunt bow is being slowed by motorboat chop and I can't see a way round that.

                        David
                        Santiago, Chile


                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory" <gregg.carlson@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > A broach is when a boat turns suddenly. The classic broach happens on a broach reach or downwind, with lots of canvas and the skipper perhaps underestimating wind speed. The weather helm - due to the turning moment of the wide-set sail - overwhelms the rudder, especially if it ventilates and/or stalls due to high angle of attack and you are spun into beam reach with too much sail. Spinnakers are also very helpful in the upcoming capsize since they'll roll downwind.
                        >
                        > To be fair to the Old Shoe, you can broach any boat. Obviously the bigger and heavier the more extreme the conditions (and poorer seamanship) required. Your tiller angle is a really good indicator of things to come.
                        >
                        > All small boats can capsize, but the blunt bow and short rudder are certainly not going to be helpful in a hard-pressed Old Shoe. A thump on the bow at the wrong moment is going to be helpful in lifting the rudder for ventilation - and off you go.
                        >
                        > I was able to capsize my Micro in a big puff, but I don't think the bluff bow is a big problem for any of the square boats, and probably none at all for the heavy ones. The rudder is the issue, but these designs do a great job drawing next to no water, and you can't have it both ways.
                        >
                        > It's really not a design fault or a problem except to those that also believe a 12-passenger van ought to beat a Veyron around a race track.
                        >
                        > Gregg
                        >
                      • Joe T
                        Many factors, but. My Oldshoe never broached, probably because I stayed out of the rough stuff. The plan showed no end plate on Oldshoe but I saw it on other
                        Message 11 of 24 , Aug 9, 2011
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                          Many factors, but. My Oldshoe never broached, probably because I stayed out of the rough stuff. The plan showed no end plate on Oldshoe but I saw it on other Bolger designs and added it to mine in 1988. (Oh my, 23 years.) I can see why it could add more authority to a shoal rudder. It could be a wise retrofit. Mine is about 5 inches wide, tapered forward and rounded aft.

                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory" <gregg.carlson@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > ...A broach is when a boat turns suddenly. The classic broach
                          > happens The rudder is the issue, but these designs do a great job > drawing next to no water, and you can't have it both ways....
                          >
                          > Gregg
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