## Re: [bolger] Re: WATER WAGON

Expand Messages
• How big is the proposed auxiliary? Divide the number of watt hours in the battery pack (around 1900 in the described pack) by the number of watts the motor
Message 1 of 23 , Jun 3, 2011
How big is the proposed auxiliary? Divide the number of watt hours in the battery pack (around 1900 in the described pack) by the number of watts the motor draws (just volts times amps, since it's DC) at a given throttle setting and that tells you the maximum time you can run at that setting..

-p

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Chester Young wrote:

I am curious about the potential range of a battery system.  My Uncle has a birdwatcher and he is determined to change to an electric auxiliary.   It is easy to get 5 miles from home were we are (Caloosahatchee River) and have the wind either die or blow right on the nose.  How far can a person really expect to motor a boat under just minimally adverse conditions?  For this discussion lets consider three deep cycle batteries, that would be a lot of weight relative to a bird watcher and a considerable bit of space too.

~Caloosarat

From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of BruceHallman
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 1:31 PM
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: WATER WAGON

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:09 AM, Pierce Nichols <rocketgeek@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> The wide availability of lithium polymer (LiPo) packs has changed that equation somewhat.

Perhaps in the future. I believe that presently LiPo are proving
economical only on small scale, like with model airplanes, and
bicycles which both are weight sensitive making paying the bucks to
save the weight worthwhile.

On a displacement powerboat you can have the weight luxury of using

I suppose if you were developing an electric boat to plane you could
justify LiPo, but if that were the case, I don't think you want it to
also be a camper like WaterVan.

• The Torgeedo web site has accurate charts of what to expect with their motors and battery combinations. I own a Torqeedo 1003 which I use on a 16 foot dingy.
Message 2 of 23 , Jun 3, 2011
The Torgeedo web site has accurate charts of what to expect with their motors and battery combinations.

I own a Torqeedo 1003 which I use on a 16 foot dingy. What I get is what they say I should get in their chart:

http://www.torqeedo.com/us/hn/products/travel-503-1003/on-the-move-speed-range-run-time.html

It's going to look like an expensive choice until you balance true costs. I think my motor would work fine for a Birdwatcher where you want to get home from 5 miles out.

The trick is to understand that you should not expect to be able to get anywhere near hull speed unless you want to drain the batteries in less than 5 miles. But you can get one-third hull speed for many hours.

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Chester Young" <chester@...> wrote:
>
> I am curious about the potential range of a battery system. My Uncle
> has a birdwatcher and he is determined to change to an electric
> auxiliary. It is easy to get 5 miles from home were we are
> (Caloosahatchee River) and have the wind either die or blow right on the
> nose. How far can a person really expect to motor a boat under just
> minimally adverse conditions? For this discussion lets consider three
> deep cycle batteries, that would be a lot of weight relative to a bird
> watcher and a considerable bit of space too.
>
>
>
> ~Caloosarat
>
>
>
> From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of BruceHallman
> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 1:31 PM
> To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: WATER WAGON
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:09 AM, Pierce Nichols <rocketgeek@...
> <mailto:rocketgeek%40gmail.com> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > The wide availability of lithium polymer (LiPo) packs has changed that
> equation somewhat.
>
> Perhaps in the future. I believe that presently LiPo are proving
> economical only on small scale, like with model airplanes, and
> bicycles which both are weight sensitive making paying the bucks to
> save the weight worthwhile.
>
> On a displacement powerboat you can have the weight luxury of using
> more economical lead acid batteries.
>
> I suppose if you were developing an electric boat to plane you could
> justify LiPo, but if that were the case, I don't think you want it to
> also be a camper like WaterVan.
>
• ... If you are willing to build your own battery pack, LiFePO4 is more like \$0.40/Wh at this point - I m currently looking at 100 Ah cells (3.2v, = 320 Wh) for
Message 3 of 23 , Jun 9, 2011
--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Pierce Nichols <rocketgeek@...> wrote:

> Where 'the future' is next year. The market for batteries is changing fast
> right now. A bit of googling tells me that the retail cost of LiPo packs is
> around \$1/Wh retail.

If you are willing to build your own battery pack, LiFePO4 is more like \$0.40/Wh at this point - I'm currently looking at 100 Ah cells (3.2v, = 320 Wh) for \$125 plus domestic shipping...

The ideal Bolger designs that can take advantage of this improving electric storage technology are the longer and narrower displacement or semi-displacement hulls, particularly those that lend themselves to mounting solar arrays. I'm starting a build of a multipurpose 24' trimaran for electric propulsion, with a removable solar hardtop (as it's also configurable as a cat-ketch coastal expedition boat). My own design, but heavily influenced by previous Bolger builds and his general sensibility WRT light, stitch and glue camp-cruisers.

I think we're on the cusp of a major shift toward electric small boats, and I wish Phil was still around to help it along...
• Where are you buying your LiFePO4? What sort of life expectancy can be expected? I have a 2001 Prius I bought with 103,000 miles on it three years ago. It
Message 4 of 23 , Jun 11, 2011
Where are you buying your LiFePO4? What sort of life expectancy can be expected?

I have a 2001 Prius I bought with 103,000 miles on it three years ago. It now has 170,000 miles. The list value of the care diminished radically over those three years presumably because of fear about how long the drive battery will last. I judge it to be as good as it was three years ago based on fuel milage which has not changed.

Eric

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "F Neil Simms" <f.neil.simms@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Pierce Nichols <rocketgeek@> wrote:
>
> > Where 'the future' is next year. The market for batteries is changing fast
> > right now. A bit of googling tells me that the retail cost of LiPo packs is
> > around \$1/Wh retail.
>
> If you are willing to build your own battery pack, LiFePO4 is more like \$0.40/Wh at this point - I'm currently looking at 100 Ah cells (3.2v, = 320 Wh) for \$125 plus domestic shipping...
>
> The ideal Bolger designs that can take advantage of this improving electric storage technology are the longer and narrower displacement or semi-displacement hulls, particularly those that lend themselves to mounting solar arrays. I'm starting a build of a multipurpose 24' trimaran for electric propulsion, with a removable solar hardtop (as it's also configurable as a cat-ketch coastal expedition boat). My own design, but heavily influenced by previous Bolger builds and his general sensibility WRT light, stitch and glue camp-cruisers.
>
> I think we're on the cusp of a major shift toward electric small boats, and I wish Phil was still around to help it along...
>
• I ve seen several sellers of Thundersky (Winston) LiFePO4 batteries at that price per watt. Here are a couple:
Message 5 of 23 , Jun 12, 2011
I've seen several sellers of Thundersky (Winston) LiFePO4 batteries at that price per watt. Here are a couple:

http://currentevtech.com/Lithium-Batteries/Thundersky-c11/
http://www.evolveelectrics.com/Thunder%20Sky%20Lithium%20Batteries.html

All sort of great claims as to longevity, but only time will tell (they SHOULD be considerably longer lived than lead acid when driven to 80% discharge, and if care is taken when charging them).

It's becoming more practical and affordable by the day to go electric, and a lot of Bolger designs lend themselves to it. I hope we some more builds going in this direction.

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@...> wrote:
>
> Where are you buying your LiFePO4? What sort of life expectancy can be expected?
>
> I have a 2001 Prius I bought with 103,000 miles on it three years ago. It now has 170,000 miles. The list value of the care diminished radically over those three years presumably because of fear about how long the drive battery will last. I judge it to be as good as it was three years ago based on fuel milage which has not changed.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "F Neil Simms" <f.neil.simms@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Pierce Nichols <rocketgeek@> wrote:
> >
> > > Where 'the future' is next year. The market for batteries is changing fast
> > > right now. A bit of googling tells me that the retail cost of LiPo packs is
> > > around \$1/Wh retail.
> >
> > If you are willing to build your own battery pack, LiFePO4 is more like \$0.40/Wh at this point - I'm currently looking at 100 Ah cells (3.2v, = 320 Wh) for \$125 plus domestic shipping...
> >
> > The ideal Bolger designs that can take advantage of this improving electric storage technology are the longer and narrower displacement or semi-displacement hulls, particularly those that lend themselves to mounting solar arrays. I'm starting a build of a multipurpose 24' trimaran for electric propulsion, with a removable solar hardtop (as it's also configurable as a cat-ketch coastal expedition boat). My own design, but heavily influenced by previous Bolger builds and his general sensibility WRT light, stitch and glue camp-cruisers.
> >
> > I think we're on the cusp of a major shift toward electric small boats, and I wish Phil was still around to help it along...
> >
>
• Priuses use nickel metal hydride batteries. Toyota wisely chose to treat the Prius batteries with kid gloves -- the batteries are never charged more than
Message 6 of 23 , Jun 12, 2011
Priuses use nickel metal hydride batteries. Toyota wisely chose to treat
the Prius batteries with kid gloves -- the batteries are never charged
more than 90-some-odd percent, and they're never discharged very much.
They could have got better mileage by working the batteries harder, but at
the risk of shorter battery pack life. I think it was a good trade-off.
I've got a 2005 Prius with a bit over 50,000 trouble free miles so far.
I'm pleased to see that Eric has gone more than three times that without
battery deterioration.

The lesson electric boaters could learn from Toyota is to size your
battery bank so you can get the range and performance you need without
stressing the batteries, whatever type you use, and use a good charging
system that never overcharges the batteries.

On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 18:08:36 -0700, Eric <eric14850@...> wrote:

> Where are you buying your LiFePO4? What sort of life expectancy can be
> expected?
>
> I have a 2001 Prius I bought with 103,000 miles on it three years ago.
> It now has 170,000 miles. The list value of the care diminished
> radically over those three years presumably because of fear about how
> long the drive battery will last. I judge it to be as good as it was
> three years ago based on fuel milage which has not changed.

--
John (jkohnen@...)
Eels are said to kelter in the water when they wamble.
• You should find articles on the RAV4E. Those were sold when they came off lease. They sold for near \$50,000 each. The expected battery life was 6 years. They
Message 7 of 23 , Jun 13, 2011

You should find articles on the RAV4E. Those were sold when they came off lease. They sold for near \$50,000 each. The expected battery life was 6 years. They have gone 9 now and still seem to be good. Part of this is that they were used in utility fleets and so had regular maintenance like being charged every day.

MylesJ

• Thanks for the links. I am still considering electric propulsion. If the Torqeedo didn t have reliability issues, and perhaps exaggerated propulsion claims, I
Message 8 of 23 , Jun 13, 2011

I am still considering electric propulsion. If the Torqeedo didn't have reliability issues, and perhaps exaggerated propulsion claims, I would buy one today. I will keep cobbling along for a while longer in hopes that a good electric solution presents itself. From what I have read, I believe someone could replace an inboard with an electric motor, reliably, today.

I also appreciate the comment made in another response about increasing longevity of batteries by babying them. A very good idea given the cost of batteries. The longer they last, the more economical and practical an investment they will be.
Eric

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "F Neil Simms" <f.neil.simms@...> wrote:
>
> I've seen several sellers of Thundersky (Winston) LiFePO4 batteries at that price per watt. Here are a couple:
>
> http://currentevtech.com/Lithium-Batteries/Thundersky-c11/
> http://www.evolveelectrics.com/Thunder%20Sky%20Lithium%20Batteries.html
>
> All sort of great claims as to longevity, but only time will tell (they SHOULD be considerably longer lived than lead acid when driven to 80% discharge, and if care is taken when charging them).
>
> It's becoming more practical and affordable by the day to go electric, and a lot of Bolger designs lend themselves to it. I hope we some more builds going in this direction.
>
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@> wrote:
> >
> > Where are you buying your LiFePO4? What sort of life expectancy can be expected?
> >
> > I have a 2001 Prius I bought with 103,000 miles on it three years ago. It now has 170,000 miles. The list value of the care diminished radically over those three years presumably because of fear about how long the drive battery will last. I judge it to be as good as it was three years ago based on fuel milage which has not changed.
> >
> > Eric
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "F Neil Simms" <f.neil.simms@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Pierce Nichols <rocketgeek@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Where 'the future' is next year. The market for batteries is changing fast
> > > > right now. A bit of googling tells me that the retail cost of LiPo packs is
> > > > around \$1/Wh retail.
> > >
> > > If you are willing to build your own battery pack, LiFePO4 is more like \$0.40/Wh at this point - I'm currently looking at 100 Ah cells (3.2v, = 320 Wh) for \$125 plus domestic shipping...
> > >
> > > The ideal Bolger designs that can take advantage of this improving electric storage technology are the longer and narrower displacement or semi-displacement hulls, particularly those that lend themselves to mounting solar arrays. I'm starting a build of a multipurpose 24' trimaran for electric propulsion, with a removable solar hardtop (as it's also configurable as a cat-ketch coastal expedition boat). My own design, but heavily influenced by previous Bolger builds and his general sensibility WRT light, stitch and glue camp-cruisers.
> > >
> > > I think we're on the cusp of a major shift toward electric small boats, and I wish Phil was still around to help it along...
> > >
> >
>
• I;m familiar with several sailboat conversions to electric propulsion. One is a 36 Columbia, cruised extensively on both the east and west coasts. the other
Message 9 of 23 , Jun 13, 2011
I;m familiar with several sailboat conversions to electric propulsion.
One is a 36' Columbia, cruised extensively on both the east and west
coasts. the other is a restore gaff schooner locally. Both have worked
well, after the skippers have made allowances for the electric
propulsion limitations. Neither is a direct replacement for an IC
engine. There is enough power to get out of the marina and away from the
socks. Both skippers sail more than power and adjust their schedules
accordingly.

Capt'n Pauley (Paul Esterle)
Freelance Boating Writer
www.thevirtualboatyard.com

On 6/13/2011 5:39 PM, Eric wrote:
>
>
> I am still considering electric propulsion. If the Torqeedo didn't
> have reliability issues, and perhaps exaggerated propulsion claims, I
> would buy one today. I will keep cobbling along for a while longer in
> hopes that a good electric solution presents itself. From what I have
> read, I believe someone could replace an inboard with an electric
> motor, reliably, today.
>
> increasing longevity of batteries by babying them. A very good idea
> given the cost of batteries. The longer they last, the more economical
> and practical an investment they will be.
> Eric
>
• I saw a sailboat advertised about a year ago (on sailnet, I think? could have been elsewhere) that was set up to run on an electric motor. The motor also
Message 10 of 23 , Jun 13, 2011
I saw a sailboat advertised about a year ago (on sailnet, I think? could have been elsewhere) that was set up to run on an electric motor.  The motor also acted as the generator for it's own battery's charging system when under sail; the spinning of the prop would spin the motor, and cause it to act as a generator.  I believe the setup is available as a retail package.  Of course, it wouldn't work nearly as well for a boat that relies primarily on engine power, instead of wind power.

I'm sure that whatever power option you choose to go with, you'll do fine.  Personally, I'd worry about how well the setup would last before each time it needed to be maintained - water and electronics have had problem with each other for as long as electronics have been around, with water winning most of the time.  If used in salt water, corrosion is much worse.  Not to mention that, if you intend to use your boat fairly extensively whenever you do have it out, it may be impossible to "baby" the batteries to extend their lifespan.  Wind generation and solar panels may help in that regard.

Good luck, however you decide to go.
• Regen on a sailboat is hype. It just cannot give you significant power unless you have a powerful sailboat - like a 40 foot trimaran. Think how your boat would
Message 11 of 23 , Jun 13, 2011
Regen on a sailboat is hype. It just cannot give you significant power unless you have a powerful sailboat - like a 40 foot trimaran.

Think how your boat would sail if you had a bucket the size of your propeller dragging behind you.

People who have tried regen say that they can’t get anything unless going over 6 knots.

Tow-behind generators seem to work a bit better on big boats, but, any way you work the math, a generator is going to cost 5 to 10 times more drag than you will recover in your battery bank.

From: Mathew
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: WATER WAGON

I saw a sailboat advertised about a year ago (on sailnet, I think? could have been elsewhere) that was set up to run on an electric motor.  The motor also acted as the generator for it's own battery's charging system when under sail; the spinning of the prop would spin the motor, and cause it to act as a generator.  I believe the setup is available as a retail package.  Of course, it wouldn't work nearly as well for a boat that relies primarily on engine power, instead of wind power.

I'm sure that whatever power option you choose to go with, you'll do fine.  Personally, I'd worry about how well the setup would last before each time it needed to be maintained - water and electronics have had problem with each other for as long as electronics have been around, with water winning most of the time.  If used in salt water, corrosion is much worse.  Not to mention that, if you intend to use your boat fairly extensively whenever you do have it out, it may be impossible to "baby" the batteries to extend their lifespan.  Wind generation and solar panels may help in that regard.

Good luck, however you decide to go.
• Not that I will claim to know much about this but in a lecture at a cruising club the ancient wise one (and I mean that) who still owns his own battery
Message 12 of 23 , Jun 13, 2011
Not that I will claim to know much about this but in a lecture at a cruising club the "ancient wise one" (and I mean that) who still owns his own battery company after 50 years said that one of the best things one can do to the batteries is give them an "equalization charge" on a yearly ?? basis. I bought a charger that has this function at Canadian Tire--some type of smart charger made by Shumacher for about \$70 Canadian. http://www.mydrv.net/equalization.htm

I have had an older Air Marine wind charger on my boat for 6 years and it does a good job of keeping the batteries topped up--but that all depends on what you expect from your batteries I guess. I have 400 amp/hours of capacity and this size because when I bought the wind generator it was the minimum size they recommended so that the charging could be accurately assessed by the unit. This no longer applies. The noise of the 3 blade prop drives some people crazy--but I did get used to it. Other multiblade windchargers are much quieter. Initially I bought a 5hp Briggs and Stratton motor and put on  a larger 12Volt alternator to charge the batteries since my 35 foot cat is powered by a 10 hp OB that only has a 25 watt charger.

I have heard that using the prop to generate power to recharge under way may not be very effective but have no direct experience.

The alternator on the small motor may be a way to go until you get all the other things sorted out --one could pick up the alternator cheap at a rebuilders and a small gas motor from a lawnmower and this would allow you to experiment with wind generators and solar without fear of running low. Once you have solved all the problems you could sell the motor rig or keep it.
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