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Re: [bolger] Re: WATER WAGON

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  • BruceHallman
    The Bolger article to look up is Vol14 No22, you could get a reprint from Bob Hicks. In that article PCB/SA go on at length describing their process designing
    Message 1 of 23 , Jun 3, 2011
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      The Bolger article to look up is Vol14 No22, you could get a reprint
      from Bob Hicks. In that article PCB/SA go on at length describing
      their process designing the battery system for their electric launch
      Lily. It is far from simple, requiring a balance of amp hour rating
      with motor, and then isolating the batteries with diodes and designing
      the charging system. Lily settled on 6 each Catagory 27 12V batteries
      weighing a total of 330lbs, and providing 350 amp-hours at 24V. The
      charging system is not trivial because it is not uncommon to only have
      available one 15Amp circuit of 110V power.In the end, PCB/SA settled
      on having six dedicated chargers, one each for each battery in the
      bank; all necessary to achieve a recharge within a reasonable time
      period.

      On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Chester Young <chester@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > I am curious about the potential range of a battery system.  My Uncle has a birdwatcher and he is determined to change to an electric auxiliary.   It is easy to get 5 miles from home were we are (Caloosahatchee River) and have the wind either die or blow right on the nose.  How far can a person really expect to motor a boat under just minimally adverse conditions?  For this discussion lets consider three deep cycle batteries, that would be a lot of weight relative to a bird watcher and a considerable bit of space too.
      >
      >
      >
      > ~Caloosarat
    • Pierce Nichols
      ... Where the future is next year. The market for batteries is changing fast right now. A bit of googling tells me that the retail cost of LiPo packs is
      Message 2 of 23 , Jun 3, 2011
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        On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:26 AM, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
        On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:09 AM, Pierce Nichols <rocketgeek@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > The wide availability of lithium polymer (LiPo) packs has changed that equation somewhat.

        Perhaps in the future.  I believe that presently LiPo are proving
        economical only on small scale, like with model airplanes, and
        bicycles which both are weight sensitive making paying the bucks to
        save the weight worthwhile.

        Where 'the future' is next year. The market for batteries is changing fast right now. A bit of googling tells me that the retail cost of LiPo packs is around $1/Wh retail. Good deep cycle lead acid batteries (Optima, for example) are around $0.30/Wh retail. That LiPo price is probably high of what you'd pay for outfitting an electric boat, since it's based on relatively small packs (20 - 30 Wh) and the lead acid price is based on standard 12V marine batteries (600 - 700 Wh). That's down significantly from the last time I checked, a few months ago.
         
        On a displacement powerboat you can have the weight luxury of using
        more economical lead acid batteries.

        I suppose if you were developing an electric boat to plane you could
        justify LiPo, but if that were the case, I don't think you want it to
        also be a camper like WaterVan.

        I believe the WaterVan is intended to plane... certainly at least one of them is powered for that.

        -p
      • Pierce Nichols
        How big is the proposed auxiliary? Divide the number of watt hours in the battery pack (around 1900 in the described pack) by the number of watts the motor
        Message 3 of 23 , Jun 3, 2011
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          How big is the proposed auxiliary? Divide the number of watt hours in the battery pack (around 1900 in the described pack) by the number of watts the motor draws (just volts times amps, since it's DC) at a given throttle setting and that tells you the maximum time you can run at that setting..

          -p

          On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Chester Young <chester@...> wrote:


          I am curious about the potential range of a battery system.  My Uncle has a birdwatcher and he is determined to change to an electric auxiliary.   It is easy to get 5 miles from home were we are (Caloosahatchee River) and have the wind either die or blow right on the nose.  How far can a person really expect to motor a boat under just minimally adverse conditions?  For this discussion lets consider three deep cycle batteries, that would be a lot of weight relative to a bird watcher and a considerable bit of space too.

           

          ~Caloosarat

           

          From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of BruceHallman
          Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 1:31 PM
          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: WATER WAGON

           

           

          On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:09 AM, Pierce Nichols <rocketgeek@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > The wide availability of lithium polymer (LiPo) packs has changed that equation somewhat.

          Perhaps in the future. I believe that presently LiPo are proving
          economical only on small scale, like with model airplanes, and
          bicycles which both are weight sensitive making paying the bucks to
          save the weight worthwhile.

          On a displacement powerboat you can have the weight luxury of using
          more economical lead acid batteries.

          I suppose if you were developing an electric boat to plane you could
          justify LiPo, but if that were the case, I don't think you want it to
          also be a camper like WaterVan.




        • Ed
          The Torgeedo web site has accurate charts of what to expect with their motors and battery combinations. I own a Torqeedo 1003 which I use on a 16 foot dingy.
          Message 4 of 23 , Jun 3, 2011
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            The Torgeedo web site has accurate charts of what to expect with their motors and battery combinations.

            I own a Torqeedo 1003 which I use on a 16 foot dingy. What I get is what they say I should get in their chart:

            http://www.torqeedo.com/us/hn/products/travel-503-1003/on-the-move-speed-range-run-time.html

            It's going to look like an expensive choice until you balance true costs. I think my motor would work fine for a Birdwatcher where you want to get home from 5 miles out.

            The trick is to understand that you should not expect to be able to get anywhere near hull speed unless you want to drain the batteries in less than 5 miles. But you can get one-third hull speed for many hours.


            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Chester Young" <chester@...> wrote:
            >
            > I am curious about the potential range of a battery system. My Uncle
            > has a birdwatcher and he is determined to change to an electric
            > auxiliary. It is easy to get 5 miles from home were we are
            > (Caloosahatchee River) and have the wind either die or blow right on the
            > nose. How far can a person really expect to motor a boat under just
            > minimally adverse conditions? For this discussion lets consider three
            > deep cycle batteries, that would be a lot of weight relative to a bird
            > watcher and a considerable bit of space too.
            >
            >
            >
            > ~Caloosarat
            >
            >
            >
            > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            > Of BruceHallman
            > Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 1:31 PM
            > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: WATER WAGON
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:09 AM, Pierce Nichols <rocketgeek@...
            > <mailto:rocketgeek%40gmail.com> > wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > The wide availability of lithium polymer (LiPo) packs has changed that
            > equation somewhat.
            >
            > Perhaps in the future. I believe that presently LiPo are proving
            > economical only on small scale, like with model airplanes, and
            > bicycles which both are weight sensitive making paying the bucks to
            > save the weight worthwhile.
            >
            > On a displacement powerboat you can have the weight luxury of using
            > more economical lead acid batteries.
            >
            > I suppose if you were developing an electric boat to plane you could
            > justify LiPo, but if that were the case, I don't think you want it to
            > also be a camper like WaterVan.
            >
          • F Neil Simms
            ... If you are willing to build your own battery pack, LiFePO4 is more like $0.40/Wh at this point - I m currently looking at 100 Ah cells (3.2v, = 320 Wh) for
            Message 5 of 23 , Jun 9, 2011
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              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Pierce Nichols <rocketgeek@...> wrote:

              > Where 'the future' is next year. The market for batteries is changing fast
              > right now. A bit of googling tells me that the retail cost of LiPo packs is
              > around $1/Wh retail.

              If you are willing to build your own battery pack, LiFePO4 is more like $0.40/Wh at this point - I'm currently looking at 100 Ah cells (3.2v, = 320 Wh) for $125 plus domestic shipping...

              The ideal Bolger designs that can take advantage of this improving electric storage technology are the longer and narrower displacement or semi-displacement hulls, particularly those that lend themselves to mounting solar arrays. I'm starting a build of a multipurpose 24' trimaran for electric propulsion, with a removable solar hardtop (as it's also configurable as a cat-ketch coastal expedition boat). My own design, but heavily influenced by previous Bolger builds and his general sensibility WRT light, stitch and glue camp-cruisers.

              I think we're on the cusp of a major shift toward electric small boats, and I wish Phil was still around to help it along...
            • Eric
              Where are you buying your LiFePO4? What sort of life expectancy can be expected? I have a 2001 Prius I bought with 103,000 miles on it three years ago. It
              Message 6 of 23 , Jun 11, 2011
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                Where are you buying your LiFePO4? What sort of life expectancy can be expected?

                I have a 2001 Prius I bought with 103,000 miles on it three years ago. It now has 170,000 miles. The list value of the care diminished radically over those three years presumably because of fear about how long the drive battery will last. I judge it to be as good as it was three years ago based on fuel milage which has not changed.

                Eric



                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "F Neil Simms" <f.neil.simms@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Pierce Nichols <rocketgeek@> wrote:
                >
                > > Where 'the future' is next year. The market for batteries is changing fast
                > > right now. A bit of googling tells me that the retail cost of LiPo packs is
                > > around $1/Wh retail.
                >
                > If you are willing to build your own battery pack, LiFePO4 is more like $0.40/Wh at this point - I'm currently looking at 100 Ah cells (3.2v, = 320 Wh) for $125 plus domestic shipping...
                >
                > The ideal Bolger designs that can take advantage of this improving electric storage technology are the longer and narrower displacement or semi-displacement hulls, particularly those that lend themselves to mounting solar arrays. I'm starting a build of a multipurpose 24' trimaran for electric propulsion, with a removable solar hardtop (as it's also configurable as a cat-ketch coastal expedition boat). My own design, but heavily influenced by previous Bolger builds and his general sensibility WRT light, stitch and glue camp-cruisers.
                >
                > I think we're on the cusp of a major shift toward electric small boats, and I wish Phil was still around to help it along...
                >
              • F Neil Simms
                I ve seen several sellers of Thundersky (Winston) LiFePO4 batteries at that price per watt. Here are a couple:
                Message 7 of 23 , Jun 12, 2011
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                  I've seen several sellers of Thundersky (Winston) LiFePO4 batteries at that price per watt. Here are a couple:

                  http://currentevtech.com/Lithium-Batteries/Thundersky-c11/
                  http://www.evolveelectrics.com/Thunder%20Sky%20Lithium%20Batteries.html

                  All sort of great claims as to longevity, but only time will tell (they SHOULD be considerably longer lived than lead acid when driven to 80% discharge, and if care is taken when charging them).

                  It's becoming more practical and affordable by the day to go electric, and a lot of Bolger designs lend themselves to it. I hope we some more builds going in this direction.


                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Where are you buying your LiFePO4? What sort of life expectancy can be expected?
                  >
                  > I have a 2001 Prius I bought with 103,000 miles on it three years ago. It now has 170,000 miles. The list value of the care diminished radically over those three years presumably because of fear about how long the drive battery will last. I judge it to be as good as it was three years ago based on fuel milage which has not changed.
                  >
                  > Eric
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "F Neil Simms" <f.neil.simms@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Pierce Nichols <rocketgeek@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Where 'the future' is next year. The market for batteries is changing fast
                  > > > right now. A bit of googling tells me that the retail cost of LiPo packs is
                  > > > around $1/Wh retail.
                  > >
                  > > If you are willing to build your own battery pack, LiFePO4 is more like $0.40/Wh at this point - I'm currently looking at 100 Ah cells (3.2v, = 320 Wh) for $125 plus domestic shipping...
                  > >
                  > > The ideal Bolger designs that can take advantage of this improving electric storage technology are the longer and narrower displacement or semi-displacement hulls, particularly those that lend themselves to mounting solar arrays. I'm starting a build of a multipurpose 24' trimaran for electric propulsion, with a removable solar hardtop (as it's also configurable as a cat-ketch coastal expedition boat). My own design, but heavily influenced by previous Bolger builds and his general sensibility WRT light, stitch and glue camp-cruisers.
                  > >
                  > > I think we're on the cusp of a major shift toward electric small boats, and I wish Phil was still around to help it along...
                  > >
                  >
                • John Kohnen
                  Priuses use nickel metal hydride batteries. Toyota wisely chose to treat the Prius batteries with kid gloves -- the batteries are never charged more than
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jun 12, 2011
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                    Priuses use nickel metal hydride batteries. Toyota wisely chose to treat
                    the Prius batteries with kid gloves -- the batteries are never charged
                    more than 90-some-odd percent, and they're never discharged very much.
                    They could have got better mileage by working the batteries harder, but at
                    the risk of shorter battery pack life. I think it was a good trade-off.
                    I've got a 2005 Prius with a bit over 50,000 trouble free miles so far.
                    I'm pleased to see that Eric has gone more than three times that without
                    battery deterioration.

                    The lesson electric boaters could learn from Toyota is to size your
                    battery bank so you can get the range and performance you need without
                    stressing the batteries, whatever type you use, and use a good charging
                    system that never overcharges the batteries.

                    On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 18:08:36 -0700, Eric <eric14850@...> wrote:

                    > Where are you buying your LiFePO4? What sort of life expectancy can be
                    > expected?
                    >
                    > I have a 2001 Prius I bought with 103,000 miles on it three years ago.
                    > It now has 170,000 miles. The list value of the care diminished
                    > radically over those three years presumably because of fear about how
                    > long the drive battery will last. I judge it to be as good as it was
                    > three years ago based on fuel milage which has not changed.

                    --
                    John (jkohnen@...)
                    Eels are said to kelter in the water when they wamble.
                  • Myles J. Swift
                    You should find articles on the RAV4E. Those were sold when they came off lease. They sold for near $50,000 each. The expected battery life was 6 years. They
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jun 13, 2011
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                      You should find articles on the RAV4E. Those were sold when they came off lease. They sold for near $50,000 each. The expected battery life was 6 years. They have gone 9 now and still seem to be good. Part of this is that they were used in utility fleets and so had regular maintenance like being charged every day.

                       

                      MylesJ

                    • Eric
                      Thanks for the links. I am still considering electric propulsion. If the Torqeedo didn t have reliability issues, and perhaps exaggerated propulsion claims, I
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jun 13, 2011
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                        Thanks for the links.

                        I am still considering electric propulsion. If the Torqeedo didn't have reliability issues, and perhaps exaggerated propulsion claims, I would buy one today. I will keep cobbling along for a while longer in hopes that a good electric solution presents itself. From what I have read, I believe someone could replace an inboard with an electric motor, reliably, today.

                        I also appreciate the comment made in another response about increasing longevity of batteries by babying them. A very good idea given the cost of batteries. The longer they last, the more economical and practical an investment they will be.
                        Eric



                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "F Neil Simms" <f.neil.simms@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I've seen several sellers of Thundersky (Winston) LiFePO4 batteries at that price per watt. Here are a couple:
                        >
                        > http://currentevtech.com/Lithium-Batteries/Thundersky-c11/
                        > http://www.evolveelectrics.com/Thunder%20Sky%20Lithium%20Batteries.html
                        >
                        > All sort of great claims as to longevity, but only time will tell (they SHOULD be considerably longer lived than lead acid when driven to 80% discharge, and if care is taken when charging them).
                        >
                        > It's becoming more practical and affordable by the day to go electric, and a lot of Bolger designs lend themselves to it. I hope we some more builds going in this direction.
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Where are you buying your LiFePO4? What sort of life expectancy can be expected?
                        > >
                        > > I have a 2001 Prius I bought with 103,000 miles on it three years ago. It now has 170,000 miles. The list value of the care diminished radically over those three years presumably because of fear about how long the drive battery will last. I judge it to be as good as it was three years ago based on fuel milage which has not changed.
                        > >
                        > > Eric
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "F Neil Simms" <f.neil.simms@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Pierce Nichols <rocketgeek@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > > Where 'the future' is next year. The market for batteries is changing fast
                        > > > > right now. A bit of googling tells me that the retail cost of LiPo packs is
                        > > > > around $1/Wh retail.
                        > > >
                        > > > If you are willing to build your own battery pack, LiFePO4 is more like $0.40/Wh at this point - I'm currently looking at 100 Ah cells (3.2v, = 320 Wh) for $125 plus domestic shipping...
                        > > >
                        > > > The ideal Bolger designs that can take advantage of this improving electric storage technology are the longer and narrower displacement or semi-displacement hulls, particularly those that lend themselves to mounting solar arrays. I'm starting a build of a multipurpose 24' trimaran for electric propulsion, with a removable solar hardtop (as it's also configurable as a cat-ketch coastal expedition boat). My own design, but heavily influenced by previous Bolger builds and his general sensibility WRT light, stitch and glue camp-cruisers.
                        > > >
                        > > > I think we're on the cusp of a major shift toward electric small boats, and I wish Phil was still around to help it along...
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Paul Esterle
                        I;m familiar with several sailboat conversions to electric propulsion. One is a 36 Columbia, cruised extensively on both the east and west coasts. the other
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jun 13, 2011
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                          I;m familiar with several sailboat conversions to electric propulsion.
                          One is a 36' Columbia, cruised extensively on both the east and west
                          coasts. the other is a restore gaff schooner locally. Both have worked
                          well, after the skippers have made allowances for the electric
                          propulsion limitations. Neither is a direct replacement for an IC
                          engine. There is enough power to get out of the marina and away from the
                          socks. Both skippers sail more than power and adjust their schedules
                          accordingly.

                          Capt'n Pauley (Paul Esterle)
                          Freelance Boating Writer
                          www.thevirtualboatyard.com


                          On 6/13/2011 5:39 PM, Eric wrote:
                          >
                          > Thanks for the links.
                          >
                          > I am still considering electric propulsion. If the Torqeedo didn't
                          > have reliability issues, and perhaps exaggerated propulsion claims, I
                          > would buy one today. I will keep cobbling along for a while longer in
                          > hopes that a good electric solution presents itself. From what I have
                          > read, I believe someone could replace an inboard with an electric
                          > motor, reliably, today.
                          >
                          > I also appreciate the comment made in another response about
                          > increasing longevity of batteries by babying them. A very good idea
                          > given the cost of batteries. The longer they last, the more economical
                          > and practical an investment they will be.
                          > Eric
                          >
                        • Mathew
                          I saw a sailboat advertised about a year ago (on sailnet, I think? could have been elsewhere) that was set up to run on an electric motor. The motor also
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jun 13, 2011
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                            I saw a sailboat advertised about a year ago (on sailnet, I think? could have been elsewhere) that was set up to run on an electric motor.  The motor also acted as the generator for it's own battery's charging system when under sail; the spinning of the prop would spin the motor, and cause it to act as a generator.  I believe the setup is available as a retail package.  Of course, it wouldn't work nearly as well for a boat that relies primarily on engine power, instead of wind power.

                            I'm sure that whatever power option you choose to go with, you'll do fine.  Personally, I'd worry about how well the setup would last before each time it needed to be maintained - water and electronics have had problem with each other for as long as electronics have been around, with water winning most of the time.  If used in salt water, corrosion is much worse.  Not to mention that, if you intend to use your boat fairly extensively whenever you do have it out, it may be impossible to "baby" the batteries to extend their lifespan.  Wind generation and solar panels may help in that regard.

                            Good luck, however you decide to go.
                          • Ed Bachmann edbz
                            Regen on a sailboat is hype. It just cannot give you significant power unless you have a powerful sailboat - like a 40 foot trimaran. Think how your boat would
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jun 13, 2011
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                              Regen on a sailboat is hype. It just cannot give you significant power unless you have a powerful sailboat - like a 40 foot trimaran.
                               
                              Think how your boat would sail if you had a bucket the size of your propeller dragging behind you.
                               
                              People who have tried regen say that they can’t get anything unless going over 6 knots.
                               
                              Tow-behind generators seem to work a bit better on big boats, but, any way you work the math, a generator is going to cost 5 to 10 times more drag than you will recover in your battery bank.
                               
                              From: Mathew
                              Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 6:28 PM
                              Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: WATER WAGON
                               
                               

                              I saw a sailboat advertised about a year ago (on sailnet, I think? could have been elsewhere) that was set up to run on an electric motor.  The motor also acted as the generator for it's own battery's charging system when under sail; the spinning of the prop would spin the motor, and cause it to act as a generator.  I believe the setup is available as a retail package.  Of course, it wouldn't work nearly as well for a boat that relies primarily on engine power, instead of wind power.

                              I'm sure that whatever power option you choose to go with, you'll do fine.  Personally, I'd worry about how well the setup would last before each time it needed to be maintained - water and electronics have had problem with each other for as long as electronics have been around, with water winning most of the time.  If used in salt water, corrosion is much worse.  Not to mention that, if you intend to use your boat fairly extensively whenever you do have it out, it may be impossible to "baby" the batteries to extend their lifespan.  Wind generation and solar panels may help in that regard.

                              Good luck, however you decide to go.
                            • Mark Hamill
                              Not that I will claim to know much about this but in a lecture at a cruising club the ancient wise one (and I mean that) who still owns his own battery
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jun 13, 2011
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                                Not that I will claim to know much about this but in a lecture at a cruising club the "ancient wise one" (and I mean that) who still owns his own battery company after 50 years said that one of the best things one can do to the batteries is give them an "equalization charge" on a yearly ?? basis. I bought a charger that has this function at Canadian Tire--some type of smart charger made by Shumacher for about $70 Canadian. http://www.mydrv.net/equalization.htm
                                 
                                I have had an older Air Marine wind charger on my boat for 6 years and it does a good job of keeping the batteries topped up--but that all depends on what you expect from your batteries I guess. I have 400 amp/hours of capacity and this size because when I bought the wind generator it was the minimum size they recommended so that the charging could be accurately assessed by the unit. This no longer applies. The noise of the 3 blade prop drives some people crazy--but I did get used to it. Other multiblade windchargers are much quieter. Initially I bought a 5hp Briggs and Stratton motor and put on  a larger 12Volt alternator to charge the batteries since my 35 foot cat is powered by a 10 hp OB that only has a 25 watt charger.
                                 
                                I have heard that using the prop to generate power to recharge under way may not be very effective but have no direct experience.
                                 
                                The alternator on the small motor may be a way to go until you get all the other things sorted out --one could pick up the alternator cheap at a rebuilders and a small gas motor from a lawnmower and this would allow you to experiment with wind generators and solar without fear of running low. Once you have solved all the problems you could sell the motor rig or keep it.
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