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Re: [bolger] Re: Out and sailing quickly?

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  • Bruce Hallman
    ... By far, the quickest and cheapest way to get out sailing is to buy one of those cheap unloved fiberglass boats that people essentially give away on
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 9, 2010
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      > Not sure which building method you would consider cheaper and quicker.

      By far, the quickest and cheapest way to get out sailing is to buy one
      of those cheap unloved fiberglass boats that people essentially give
      away on Craigslist, etc. I bought one for $50, cut it into chunks
      using a SawsAll to dump it, and kept the trailer.

      The only reasons to build a boat is that you have some special
      requirement that cannot be met by the standard boats (being wheelchair
      bound, etc.), or if you like building boats! I am in the latter
      group, I like building boats for the sake of building boats.
    • Peter
      ... True in the US. Maybe not so true in Asia. I assume the high-quality natural lumber needed for steamed frames and carvel planking is unavailable. You can
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 9, 2010
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        > By far, the quickest and cheapest way to get out sailing is to buy one
        > of those cheap unloved fiberglass boats that people essentially give
        > away on Craigslist, etc.

        True in the US. Maybe not so true in Asia.

        I assume the high-quality natural lumber needed for steamed frames and carvel planking is unavailable. You can strip-build with lower quality lumber especially if it's epoxy-glued and sealed. Veneers may be easier or harder to get than finished ply, and a lot depends on the relative availability and price of glues vs metal fastenings. I wouldn't pretend to prescribe, although I've heard of cold-molding projects in the Philippines, and I believe there is commercial production of high-tech boats in both Vietnam and Thailand.

        However, the five-year build/use cycle suggests plywood.

        To be true to Mr. Bolger's thinking, let me mention the Birdwatcher, and, more particularly, the Jochems schooner. I've never thought of Birdwater as a boat for the open ocean, but Bolger intended the Jochems to be pretty rugged. There are pictures of one named Indian Summer here: http://picasaweb.google.com/PemaquidMarine
      • sirdarnell
        How about a Birdwater or it s big sister Whalewatcher. Both have shallow draft and can be beached easily. David
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 9, 2010
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          How about a Birdwater or it's big sister Whalewatcher. Both have shallow draft and can be beached easily.

          David

          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "templeagogo" <jlittl@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thanks, Harry and Peter,
          >
          > Yes, I have experience building boats. I looked at Caprice at Harry's suggestion. That seems quite good for what I am after. I will look at these others. What else do you think is good to look at? I see this as a "5-year" boat... IE I will sell it or scrap it in 5 years.
          >
          > I am a fan of boats that can take to the shallows, so the AS29 is a good idea too. I'll look at the others.
          >
          > I replied yesterday, but the message was bounced.
          >
          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@> wrote:
          > >
          > > > I want to get out on the water in a boat that is a little
          > > > more than just a tight camper, but not fancy.
          > >
          > > I bet you could list more than a dozen Bolger designs that you might consider. Any boat of the size you are talking about is a big project. It's important to consider your sources for materials. In some places, waterproof plywood is hard to find; it others, it's the easiest to get hold of.
          > >
          > > In your place, I would consider the following flat-bottom (or "Bolger box") boats: Long Micro, Jesse Cooper, AS-29.
          > >
          > > Among round-bottom and multi-chine boats, I would look at the Triple Keel sloop, the leeboard catboat, and Seabird '86. Of all of them, I think I like Seabird the best.
          > >
          > > You should be able to find pictures of all of these on the web without too much trouble.
          > >
          > > If you are an experience boatbuilder and want a bigger boat, ask again. There are a lot of choices in that case.
          > >
          >
        • prairiedog2332
          Thanks for the link. Great build photos. http://picasaweb.google.com/PemaquidMarine/WilliamDJochemsFamilySchooner DesignedByPhilBolger# Nels ... one ...
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 9, 2010
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            Thanks for the link. Great build photos.

            http://picasaweb.google.com/PemaquidMarine/WilliamDJochemsFamilySchooner\
            DesignedByPhilBolger#

            Nels


            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > > By far, the quickest and cheapest way to get out sailing is to buy
            one
            > > of those cheap unloved fiberglass boats that people essentially give
            > > away on Craigslist, etc.
            >
            > True in the US. Maybe not so true in Asia.
            >
            > I assume the high-quality natural lumber needed for steamed frames and
            carvel planking is unavailable. You can strip-build with lower quality
            lumber especially if it's epoxy-glued and sealed. Veneers may be easier
            or harder to get than finished ply, and a lot depends on the relative
            availability and price of glues vs metal fastenings. I wouldn't pretend
            to prescribe, although I've heard of cold-molding projects in the
            Philippines, and I believe there is commercial production of high-tech
            boats in both Vietnam and Thailand.
            >
            > However, the five-year build/use cycle suggests plywood.
            >
            > To be true to Mr. Bolger's thinking, let me mention the Birdwatcher,
            and, more particularly, the Jochems schooner. I've never thought of
            Birdwater as a boat for the open ocean, but Bolger intended the Jochems
            to be pretty rugged. There are pictures of one named Indian Summer here:
            http://picasaweb.google.com/PemaquidMarine
            >
          • templeagogo
            Not in Asia - yep. No craiglist give-aways here. Also, anything imported to Thailand has a 100-200% import duty. THere are plastic boats here, but hate
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 10, 2010
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              "Not in Asia" - yep. No craiglist give-aways here. Also, anything imported to Thailand has a 100-200% import duty. THere are plastic boats here, but hate them. I also just feel more at home on something I built. Add in that I can finance over the length of constuction by using each pay check to buy supplies instead of having to save, and that is how I arrived at building. These are all good suggestions on models. Thanks!

              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Not sure which building method you would consider cheaper and quicker.
              >
              > By far, the quickest and cheapest way to get out sailing is to buy one
              > of those cheap unloved fiberglass boats that people essentially give
              > away on Craigslist, etc. I bought one for $50, cut it into chunks
              > using a SawsAll to dump it, and kept the trailer.
              >
              > The only reasons to build a boat is that you have some special
              > requirement that cannot be met by the standard boats (being wheelchair
              > bound, etc.), or if you like building boats! I am in the latter
              > group, I like building boats for the sake of building boats.
              >
            • Matthew L
              I don t think you ve really told us enough about your needs to make a useful recommendation. Shallow water and about the size of Macgregor still leaves a lot
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 13, 2010
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                I don't think you've really told us enough about your needs to make a useful recommendation. Shallow water and about the size of Macgregor still leaves a lot of options. How many bunks do you need, if any? What kind of sailing? More sail, more motor, lots of wind, little wind, long rips, short ones?

                If the boat is intended as a floating weekend hope then PCB has a couple of little houseboat designs that might work, including Super Brick, which can even sail and motor after a fashion. See http://www.pdracer.com/hullcnfg/sbrick.jpg.

                For the use you describe, a modes powerboat might be a good bet. I have in mind something like a Bolger Tennessee fitted with a permanent canopy with role down screens and/or canvas sides to extend the living space. See http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/tenn.htm for some ideas.

                I agree with the suggestion to look at Jim Michalak's larger designs as well as PCB's work.

                Good luck!

                Matthew
              • Peter
                ... The Bolger Fast Motorsailer is pretty close to being a home-built Macgregor. See: http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/fms.htm (This example does not have the
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 14, 2010
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                  > Shallow water and about the size of Macgregor
                  > still leaves a lot of options.

                  The Bolger Fast Motorsailer is pretty close to being a home-built Macgregor. See: http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/fms.htm (This example does not have the rig.)

                  For my taste, the Fast Motorsailer has much better ergonomics that any Macgregor, but the sailing rig would take some getting used to.
                • prairiedog2332
                  The FMS sailing rig was later upgraded to a gaff with self-tending jib (requiring stays), dual rudders and two leeboards.
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 14, 2010
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                    The FMS sailing rig was later upgraded to a gaff with self-tending jib
                    (requiring stays), dual rudders and two leeboards.

                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Fast%20Motor\
                    %20Sailer%20%23601/

                    Not nearly as "handy" or trailerable though. More likely a full-time
                    slip required.

                    In e-mail discussions with Michalak it points out a major failing of
                    this type of design. It won't plane well with the sail rig interference
                    and without a very big motor nor sail well dragging that heavy stern.

                    16 mph not all that bad, but that is maybe with the 70 wide-open.

                    Nels

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Shallow water and about the size of Macgregor
                    > > still leaves a lot of options.
                    >
                    > The Bolger Fast Motorsailer is pretty close to being a home-built
                    Macgregor. See: http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/fms.htm (This example
                    does not have the rig.)
                    >
                    > For my taste, the Fast Motorsailer has much better ergonomics that any
                    Macgregor, but the sailing rig would take some getting used to.
                    >
                  • daschultz2000
                    And the FMS is 4 shorter making for easier trailering and storage. IMO the rig is reasonable since it is on a motorsailer where one expects to spend
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 15, 2010
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                      And the FMS is 4' shorter making for easier trailering and storage. IMO the rig is reasonable since it is on a motorsailer where one expects to spend significant time under power.

                      Don

                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > Shallow water and about the size of Macgregor
                      > > still leaves a lot of options.
                      >
                      > The Bolger Fast Motorsailer is pretty close to being a home-built Macgregor...
                      >
                      > For my taste, the Fast Motorsailer has much better ergonomics that any Macgregor, but the sailing rig would take some getting used to.
                      >
                    • gary
                      A balanced lug would seem like a more logical alternative to the dipping lug -- self tending, no standing rigging needed, easy to reef. Gary
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 15, 2010
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                        A balanced lug would seem like a more logical alternative to the dipping lug -- self tending, no standing rigging needed, easy to reef.

                        Gary


                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > The FMS sailing rig was later upgraded to a gaff with self-tending jib
                        > (requiring stays), dual rudders and two leeboards.
                        >
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Fast%20Motor\
                        > %20Sailer%20%23601/
                        >
                        > Not nearly as "handy" or trailerable though. More likely a full-time
                        > slip required.
                        >
                        > In e-mail discussions with Michalak it points out a major failing of
                        > this type of design. It won't plane well with the sail rig interference
                        > and without a very big motor nor sail well dragging that heavy stern.
                        >
                        > 16 mph not all that bad, but that is maybe with the 70 wide-open.
                        >
                        > Nels
                        >
                      • captreed@sbcglobal.net
                        ... You, Lugnut....I agree. Reed
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 15, 2010
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                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "gary" <gbship@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > A balanced lug would seem like a more logical alternative to the dipping lug -- self tending, no standing rigging needed, easy to reef.
                          >
                          > Gary

                          You, Lugnut....I agree.

                          Reed
                        • Bruce Hallman
                          ... For the best discussion of the advantages of the various lug rigs, I really recommend reading the lug rig chapters in Bolger s book _103 Sailing Rigs_. At
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 16, 2010
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                            > You, Lugnut....I agree.


                            For the best discussion of the advantages of the various lug rigs, I
                            really recommend reading the lug rig chapters in Bolger's book _103
                            Sailing Rigs_. At the root, lug sails are favored 'working sails' due
                            to their simplicity, economy and rugged toughness. This is opposed to
                            the high performance stayed sail rigs, (like most modern sloop rigs)
                            which essentially are meant to cheat racing committee rules at the
                            expense of complexity and cost.
                          • gary
                            Right on, Bruce. That s probably the best source of information around. Funny, there are books and books on the Chinese lug, but almost nothing but Bolger s
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 16, 2010
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                              Right on, Bruce. That's probably the best source of information around. Funny, there are books and books on the Chinese lug, but almost nothing but Bolger's writings on the other lug rigs. Even small details in these chapters can show a lot, even if not explicitly written about. For example, Bolger show more of the foot of the dipping lug extending in front of the mast that with the balanced lug, and I found when switching from a dippling to a balance lug that does make a difference.

                              Gary


                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > You, Lugnut....I agree.
                              >
                              >
                              > For the best discussion of the advantages of the various lug rigs, I
                              > really recommend reading the lug rig chapters in Bolger's book _103
                              > Sailing Rigs_. At the root, lug sails are favored 'working sails' due
                              > to their simplicity, economy and rugged toughness. This is opposed to
                              > the high performance stayed sail rigs, (like most modern sloop rigs)
                              > which essentially are meant to cheat racing committee rules at the
                              > expense of complexity and cost.
                              >
                            • Eric
                              Spritsails and Lugsails by John Leather is a very good source as well. http://www.amazon.com/Spritsails-Lugsails-John-Leather/dp/0877429987 His book on the
                              Message 14 of 22 , Dec 16, 2010
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                                Spritsails and Lugsails by John Leather is a very good source as well. http://www.amazon.com/Spritsails-Lugsails-John-Leather/dp/0877429987 His book on the gaff rig is even better. http://www.amazon.com/Gaff-Rig-Handbook-Techniques-Developments/dp/1408114402/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1292555278&sr=1-1 Bolger's book 101 Small Boat Rigs is absolutely necessary if one cares to ponder rig options rationally.
                                Eric


                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "gary" <gbship@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Right on, Bruce. That's probably the best source of information around. Funny, there are books and books on the Chinese lug, but almost nothing but Bolger's writings on the other lug rigs. Even small details in these chapters can show a lot, even if not explicitly written about. For example, Bolger show more of the foot of the dipping lug extending in front of the mast that with the balanced lug, and I found when switching from a dippling to a balance lug that does make a difference.
                                >
                                > Gary
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > You, Lugnut....I agree.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > For the best discussion of the advantages of the various lug rigs, I
                                > > really recommend reading the lug rig chapters in Bolger's book _103
                                > > Sailing Rigs_. At the root, lug sails are favored 'working sails' due
                                > > to their simplicity, economy and rugged toughness. This is opposed to
                                > > the high performance stayed sail rigs, (like most modern sloop rigs)
                                > > which essentially are meant to cheat racing committee rules at the
                                > > expense of complexity and cost.
                                > >
                                >
                                http://www.amazon.com/Spritsails-Lugsails-John-Leather/dp/0877429987
                              • captreed@sbcglobal.net
                                Message 15 of 22 , Dec 16, 2010
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                                  <For example, Bolger show more of the foot of the dipping lug extending <in front of the mast that with the balanced lug, and I found when <switching from a dippling to a balance lug that does make a difference.

                                  How does this make a difference Gary?

                                  Lots of books and groups on Chinese junks and few about Lugs. Its a puzzlement when a balanced lug will go windward so much better.

                                  Reed
                                • gary
                                  ... When I converted from the dipping to the balanced lugger, a boom was added to the sail and everthing else remained the same, including the length of the
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Dec 17, 2010
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                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "captreed@..." <captreed@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > <For example, Bolger show more of the foot of the dipping lug extending <in front of the mast that with the balanced lug, and I found when <switching from a dippling to a balance lug that does make a difference.
                                    >
                                    > How does this make a difference Gary?
                                    >
                                    > Lots of books and groups on Chinese junks and few about Lugs. Its a puzzlement when a balanced lug will go windward so much better.
                                    >
                                    > Reed
                                    >
                                    When I converted from the dipping to the balanced lugger, a boom was added to the sail and everthing else remained the same, including the length of the foot in front of the mast. The boat reached and ran well, but hard on the wind it was stodgy. Couldn't figure it out until I checked Bolger's book and noticed that the balanced lug didn't extend as far in front of the mast along the foot as the dipping lug did. The downhaul was moved forward on the boom (reducing the length of the foot forward of the mast) and -- voila! -- windward performace was drmatically improved. Chuck over at Duckworks says he can slide the downhaul back and forth on a balanced lug and it will find a sweet spot for windward work. I've also sometimes followed his example on smaller balanced lugs of having a forward location for the downhaul for days with mostly windward work and a slightly further aft location for days with mostly off-wind work. That helps reduce some of the weather helm when a balanced lug is eased on a reach or run (raising the centerboard or leeboard also helps . . .)

                                    Gary
                                  • captreed@sbcglobal.net
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Dec 18, 2010
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                                      <having a forward location for the downhaul for days with mostly <windward work and a slightly further aft location for days with mostly <off-wind work.

                                      Hmmm, I should play with this on my lugs.

                                      Thanks Gary.

                                      Reed
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