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Re: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

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  • mason smith
    Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I d probably go for it. I solved the
    Message 1 of 24 , Sep 3, 2010
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      Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell, alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
       
      I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside, kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
       
      ---Mason
    • prairiedog2332
      Mason, Not sure it you have seen this article written by Bob Larkin regarding his Birdwatcher2? http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_sails2.htm This Birdwatcher
      Message 2 of 24 , Sep 3, 2010
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        Mason,

        Not sure it you have seen this article written by Bob Larkin regarding
        his Birdwatcher2?

        http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_sails2.htm

        This Birdwatcher has even more sail area than the original solent
        option, something like 144 sq. ft. main (same as original solent main
        but 71 sq. ft. jib. (vs: 41 on the original) To compensate it has a
        about 160 lb. centerboard.

        Reading his article it occurs to me the smaller original jib may have
        worked better! On the other hand it passes everything in sight at the
        messabouts.

        He ended up making a smaller main and leaving the yard at home when
        going out solo, but then this leads to lee helm with that big jib. His
        new main is only 85 sq. ft. which is considerably smaller than the
        original leg o' mutton at 125 sq. ft.

        He also mentions adding a small mizzen to help keep head up to the wind
        when reefing. Or maybe just dropping the main and sailing under jib and
        mizzen. I don't quite see where there is space in the stern for a
        mizzen.

        So this all has me scratching my head. Maybe having the solent rig that
        comes with the original plans and using it when having crew available
        and then a smaller leg o' mutton (with the shorter mast) and the option
        of the little jib when going out solo. Add Bob's idea for converting it
        to a sliding gunter?

        I have the original plans which could be modified slightly adding a
        weighted centerboard maybe or a doubled bottom and the anti-slap pad.
        Would you keep the original steering set-up? And what do you think of
        building with 3/8" MDO rather than 1/4" standard plywood?

        Nels



        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
        >
        > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use
        the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I
        solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
        downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did
        that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
        were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing
        to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on
        deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as
        compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping
        the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a
        nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
        times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the
        thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
        windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
        spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where
        as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could
        pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No
        Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
        rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
        problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep
        the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell,
        alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
        >
        > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
        biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit
        when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
        with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I
        could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside,
        kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
        >
        > ---Mason
        >
      • Adirondack Goodboat
        Nels, I hadn t read Bob Larkin s account of sailing the Birdwatcher 2 with his various sails and combinations. He certainly is a great observer and fixer and
        Message 3 of 24 , Sep 4, 2010
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          Nels, I hadn't read Bob Larkin's account of sailing the Birdwatcher 2 with his various sails and combinations. He certainly is a great observer and fixer and experimenter, an asset to all who build the design. Everything he says makes good sense to me. I think my experience of bringing down the Solent lug was better, maybe because I never had particularly hard conditions. It comes down, is the main thing, and fast if you let it. I think I developed a practice whereby I kept downward tension on the luff while letting the halyard slip through the other hand, so as to keep the yard under control. I do that when lowering the standing lug on my Goodboats. It seemed important, if I remember rightly, to be able to let the foot of the yard go forward as it comes down. Except for that, and if it is satisfactory in passing by the snotter block, I guess I can see the contraption at the foot of the yard, turning the rig into a gunther. I tried a sort of parrel which I attached once the foot of the yard was high enough, and the first owner/builder had a shock cord arrangement along the mast to tame the heel of the yard, but in the end I decided to let the solent be the solent.
           
          I think the best of all these solutions for the Birdwatcher for most of us would be the original leg o' mutton sail, with its luff on a track, and the small jib tacked on deck.
           
          I too always thought of a mizzen, if only for a steadying sail. I tried a drogue from the bow, but the darn boat sailed around that as badly as around an anchor. So perhaps a short spar with a patch of canvas furled on it, a sprit boom, and two sheets, with a step and partner as far forward as possible, just to clear the main spritboom? But again, too complicated.
           
          Birdwatcher 1, motor mount sticking through the side, jib, steering as designed, motor seldom used, oars for all close maneuvers.  That would be my formula.  ---Mason
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 4:11 PM
          Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

           

          Mason,

          Not sure it you have seen this article written by Bob Larkin regarding
          his Birdwatcher2?

          http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_sails2.htm

          This Birdwatcher has even more sail area than the original solent
          option, something like 144 sq. ft. main (same as original solent main
          but 71 sq. ft. jib. (vs: 41 on the original) To compensate it has a
          about 160 lb. centerboard.

          Reading his article it occurs to me the smaller original jib may have
          worked better! On the other hand it passes everything in sight at the
          messabouts.

          He ended up making a smaller main and leaving the yard at home when
          going out solo, but then this leads to lee helm with that big jib. His
          new main is only 85 sq. ft. which is considerably smaller than the
          original leg o' mutton at 125 sq. ft.

          He also mentions adding a small mizzen to help keep head up to the wind
          when reefing. Or maybe just dropping the main and sailing under jib and
          mizzen. I don't quite see where there is space in the stern for a
          mizzen.

          So this all has me scratching my head. Maybe having the solent rig that
          comes with the original plans and using it when having crew available
          and then a smaller leg o' mutton (with the shorter mast) and the option
          of the little jib when going out solo. Add Bob's idea for converting it
          to a sliding gunter?

          I have the original plans which could be modified slightly adding a
          weighted centerboard maybe or a doubled bottom and the anti-slap pad.
          Would you keep the original steering set-up? And what do you think of
          building with 3/8" MDO rather than 1/4" standard plywood?

          Nels

          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
          >
          > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use
          the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I
          solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
          downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did
          that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
          were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing
          to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on
          deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as
          compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping
          the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a
          nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
          times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the
          thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
          windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
          spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where
          as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could
          pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No
          Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
          rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
          problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep
          the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell,
          alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
          >
          > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
          biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit
          when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
          with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I
          could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside,
          kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
          >
          > ---Mason
          >

        • Eric
          If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring? Whatever driving sails are
          Message 4 of 24 , Sep 4, 2010
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            If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring? Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable. Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be easy to switch to bow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode. However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
            Eric


            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
            >
            > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell, alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
            >
            > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside, kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
            >
            > ---Mason
            >
          • prairiedog2332
            Mason, Definitely a track on the main would help I would think. Too bad one could not install a track on the yard. Can t help thinking maybe a bit smaller
            Message 5 of 24 , Sep 4, 2010
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              Mason,

              Definitely a track on the main would help I would think. Too bad one
              could not install a track on the yard. Can't help thinking maybe a bit
              smaller sail with no battens and a lighter yard as well. Maybe carbon
              fiber or an old windsurfer mast?

              Maybe if going out solo just reef the solent rig before heading out?
              Probably a second shorter sprit boom so the forward end doesn't hang up
              on the jib when tacking? Sure, it doesn't look as "neat" at the foot
              but that area of the sail is not in much wind anyway. Is it easier to
              shake out a reef than tie one in, in case the wind goes light and looks
              like it will stay that way?

              Looks like this would bring the top of the yard down to about the height
              of the original mast and bottom of it down to a reachable height if you
              want to drop it into the slot.

              http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/Image1.jpg

              Do you think a 3.5 would work on a bracket? I have a line on a 3.5
              2-stroke Tohatsu. (with reverse)

              Nels


              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Nels, I hadn't read Bob Larkin's account of sailing the Birdwatcher 2
              with his various sails and combinations. He certainly is a great
              observer and fixer and experimenter, an asset to all who build the
              design. Everything he says makes good sense to me. I think my experience
              of bringing down the Solent lug was better, maybe because I never had
              particularly hard conditions. It comes down, is the main thing, and fast
              if you let it. I think I developed a practice whereby I kept downward
              tension on the luff while letting the halyard slip through the other
              hand, so as to keep the yard under control. I do that when lowering the
              standing lug on my Goodboats. It seemed important, if I remember
              rightly, to be able to let the foot of the yard go forward as it comes
              down. Except for that, and if it is satisfactory in passing by the
              snotter block, I guess I can see the contraption at the foot of the
              yard, turning the rig into a gunther. I tried a sort of parrel which I
              attached once the foot of the yard was high enough, and the first
              owner/builder had a shock cord arrangement along the mast to tame the
              heel of the yard, but in the end I decided to let the solent be the
              solent.
              >
              > I think the best of all these solutions for the Birdwatcher for most
              of us would be the original leg o' mutton sail, with its luff on a
              track, and the small jib tacked on deck.
              >
              > I too always thought of a mizzen, if only for a steadying sail. I
              tried a drogue from the bow, but the darn boat sailed around that as
              badly as around an anchor. So perhaps a short spar with a patch of
              canvas furled on it, a sprit boom, and two sheets, with a step and
              partner as far forward as possible, just to clear the main spritboom?
              But again, too complicated.
              >
              > Birdwatcher 1, motor mount sticking through the side, jib, steering as
              designed, motor seldom used, oars for all close maneuvers. That would
              be my formula. ---Mason
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: prairiedog2332
              > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 4:11 PM
              > Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher
              >
              >
              >
              > Mason,
              >
              > Not sure it you have seen this article written by Bob Larkin
              regarding
              > his Birdwatcher2?
              >
              > http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_sails2.htm
              >
              > This Birdwatcher has even more sail area than the original solent
              > option, something like 144 sq. ft. main (same as original solent
              main
              > but 71 sq. ft. jib. (vs: 41 on the original) To compensate it has a
              > about 160 lb. centerboard.
              >
              > Reading his article it occurs to me the smaller original jib may
              have
              > worked better! On the other hand it passes everything in sight at
              the
              > messabouts.
              >
              > He ended up making a smaller main and leaving the yard at home when
              > going out solo, but then this leads to lee helm with that big jib.
              His
              > new main is only 85 sq. ft. which is considerably smaller than the
              > original leg o' mutton at 125 sq. ft.
              >
              > He also mentions adding a small mizzen to help keep head up to the
              wind
              > when reefing. Or maybe just dropping the main and sailing under jib
              and
              > mizzen. I don't quite see where there is space in the stern for a
              > mizzen.
              >
              > So this all has me scratching my head. Maybe having the solent rig
              that
              > comes with the original plans and using it when having crew
              available
              > and then a smaller leg o' mutton (with the shorter mast) and the
              option
              > of the little jib when going out solo. Add Bob's idea for converting
              it
              > to a sliding gunter?
              >
              > I have the original plans which could be modified slightly adding a
              > weighted centerboard maybe or a doubled bottom and the anti-slap
              pad.
              > Would you keep the original steering set-up? And what do you think
              of
              > building with 3/8" MDO rather than 1/4" standard plywood?
              >
              > Nels
              >
              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" goodboat@ wrote:
              > >
              > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to
              use
              > the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it.
              I
              > solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
              > downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I
              did
              > that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
              > were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner
              bracing
              > to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters
              on
              > deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But
              as
              > compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech,
              dropping
              > the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order
              was a
              > nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
              > times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want
              the
              > thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
              > windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
              > spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar
              where
              > as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it
              could
              > pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at
              the No
              > Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
              > rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
              > problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not,
              keep
              > the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor,
              lickety-hell,
              > alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
              > >
              > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
              > biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the
              cabin/cockpit
              > when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
              > with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled
              what I
              > could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang
              inside,
              > kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
              > >
              > > ---Mason
              > >
              >
            • prairiedog2332
              Sounds to me like a very good thought. Where I am located there is a lot of sand beaches. No tides. So had thought to just haul up a bit on the beach in a
              Message 6 of 24 , Sep 4, 2010
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                Sounds to me like a very good thought.

                Where I am located there is a lot of sand beaches. No tides. So had
                thought to just haul up a bit on the beach in a sheltered spot and tie
                to a tree. Drop an anchor off the stern.

                What are your thoughts on a small flat storm jib sheeted in, if
                anchoring off the stern?

                Nels


                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@...> wrote:
                >
                > If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and
                construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring?
                Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there
                any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is
                the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose
                of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable.
                Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow
                anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from
                the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be
                desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over
                cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the
                wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a
                quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it
                is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be
                easy to switch to bow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the
                anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode.
                However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and
                raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem
                what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with
                which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                > Eric
                >
                >
                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" goodboat@ wrote:
                > >
                > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to
                use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it.
                I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
                downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did
                that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
                were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing
                to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on
                deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as
                compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping
                the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a
                nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
                times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the
                thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
                windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
                spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where
                as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could
                pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No
                Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
                rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
                problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep
                the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell,
                alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                > >
                > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
                biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit
                when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
                with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I
                could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside,
                kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                > >
                > > ---Mason
                > >
                >
              • Eric
                I would expect the windage and location of the mast on Birdwatcher are sufficient to cause Birdwatcher to lie happily to its anchor if anchored from the stern
                Message 7 of 24 , Sep 4, 2010
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                  I would expect the windage and location of the mast on Birdwatcher are sufficient to cause Birdwatcher to lie happily to its anchor if anchored from the stern rather than the bow. I like the uncomplicated elegance of function of Birdwatcher and think another boat should be chosen before adding complication. Hopefully even a little chunk of extra sail and its extra lines would not be needed.

                  I just realized Whalewatcher is yawl rigged and the mizzen might as well be built as an effective riding sail so Whalewatcher will lie happily to a bow anchor.
                  Eric

                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Sounds to me like a very good thought.
                  >
                  > Where I am located there is a lot of sand beaches. No tides. So had
                  > thought to just haul up a bit on the beach in a sheltered spot and tie
                  > to a tree. Drop an anchor off the stern.
                  >
                  > What are your thoughts on a small flat storm jib sheeted in, if
                  > anchoring off the stern?
                  >
                  > Nels
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and
                  > construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring?
                  > Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there
                  > any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is
                  > the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose
                  > of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable.
                  > Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow
                  > anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from
                  > the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be
                  > desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over
                  > cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the
                  > wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a
                  > quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it
                  > is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be
                  > easy to switch to bow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the
                  > anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode.
                  > However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and
                  > raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem
                  > what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with
                  > which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                  > > Eric
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" goodboat@ wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to
                  > use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it.
                  > I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
                  > downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did
                  > that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
                  > were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing
                  > to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on
                  > deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as
                  > compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping
                  > the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a
                  > nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
                  > times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the
                  > thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
                  > windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
                  > spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where
                  > as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could
                  > pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No
                  > Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
                  > rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
                  > problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep
                  > the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell,
                  > alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                  > > >
                  > > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
                  > biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit
                  > when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
                  > with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I
                  > could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside,
                  > kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                  > > >
                  > > > ---Mason
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Adirondack Goodboat
                  I believe we did try stern anchoring the Birdwatcher and the boat still swept huge arcs at high speed. It seemed to me that the hull becomes an airfoil,
                  Message 8 of 24 , Sep 5, 2010
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                    I believe we did try stern anchoring the Birdwatcher and the boat still swept huge arcs at high speed. It seemed to me that the hull becomes an airfoil, developing high pressure and low pressure sides, and flies until it can fly no more, on each tack.
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Eric
                    Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 6:04 PM
                    Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                     

                    If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring? Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable. Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be easy to switch to b ow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode. However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                    Eric

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the s par with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell, alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                    >
                    > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside, kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                    >
                    > ---Mason
                    >

                  • Eric
                    Then riding sail it is. A V of sail would be most effective with the ends of the V fastened to quarter cleats. If flown off a temporary back stay bow
                    Message 9 of 24 , Sep 5, 2010
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                      Then riding sail it is. A V of sail would be most effective with the ends of the V fastened to quarter cleats. If flown off a temporary back stay bow anchoring would be possible. I'd probably stern anchor and fly the V wrapped around the mast and ends to quarter cleats. Glad to hear you tried stern anchoring. I'm surprised it didn't tame things.
                      Eric

                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I believe we did try stern anchoring the Birdwatcher and the boat still swept huge arcs at high speed. It seemed to me that the hull becomes an airfoil, developing high pressure and low pressure sides, and flies until it can fly no more, on each tack.
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Eric
                      > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 6:04 PM
                      > Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring? Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable. Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be easy to switch to b ow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode. However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                      > Eric
                      >
                      > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the s par with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell, alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                      > >
                      > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside, kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                      > >
                      > > ---Mason
                      > >
                      >
                    • Adirondack Goodboat
                      Rick suggests beaching and really that s the answer where possible. I think where Phil envisioned this boat being used most, like the Dovekie, salt marshes and
                      Message 10 of 24 , Sep 5, 2010
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                        Rick suggests beaching and really that's the answer where possible. I think where Phil envisioned this boat being used most, like the Dovekie, salt marshes and tidal estuaries, you'd seldom anchor in the open, very often put out a stern anchor and run the boat on the beach or just anchor in shallow, sheltered places, very close in to shore. I'm thinking of one beautiful full moon night on the Crooked River, in Georgia, just inside Cumberland Island. Such a lovely anchorage! But with the full moon and a nice breeze I couldn't pass up sailing for an hour in the middle of the night. Kept running the bow into the grasses in the shadows and having to pole back out into the stream. I don't know if Dovekie would sail around her anchor or not and don't care. ---Mason
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 8:47 PM
                        Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                         

                        Sounds to me like a very good thought.

                        Where I am located there is a lot of sand beaches. No tides. So had
                        thought to just haul up a bit on the beach in a sheltered spot and tie
                        to a tree. Drop an anchor off the stern.

                        What are your thoughts on a small flat storm jib sheeted in, if
                        anchoring off the stern?

                        Nels

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and
                        construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring?
                        Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there
                        any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is
                        the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose
                        of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable.
                        Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow
                        anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from
                        the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be
                        desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over
                        cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the
                        wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a
                        quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it
                        is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be
                        easy to switch to bow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the
                        anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode.
                        However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and
                        raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem
                        what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with
                        which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                        > Eric
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" goodboat@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to
                        use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it.
                        I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
                        downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did
                        that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
                        were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing
                        to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on
                        deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as
                        compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping
                        the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a
                        nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
                        times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the
                        thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
                        windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
                        spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where
                        as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could
                        pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No
                        Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
                        rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
                        problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep
                        the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell,
                        alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                        > >
                        > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
                        biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit
                        when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
                        with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I
                        could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside,
                        kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                        > >
                        > > ---Mason
                        > >
                        >

                      • Bruce Hallman
                        ... Just curious, did you try anchoring with the dagger board down? How did that effect the stability at anchor? The physics of why boats swing around their
                        Message 11 of 24 , Sep 5, 2010
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                          >anchorage! . ---Mason

                          Just curious, did you try anchoring with the dagger board down? How
                          did that effect the stability at anchor? The physics of why boats
                          swing around their anchor escapes my logic. I also wonder if dropping
                          overboard a 5 gallon bucket on a rope might tame things.
                        • Eric
                          No expertise but will begin the discussion of why boats swing at anchor: Hull shape: Sailboats are designed so that almost any force applied to the hull will
                          Message 12 of 24 , Sep 5, 2010
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                            No expertise but will begin the discussion of why boats swing at anchor: Hull shape: Sailboats are designed so that almost any force applied to the hull will cause it to move forward. Windage and CLR (Center of Lateral Resistance). On the same hull a schooner will lie quieter to its anchor than a ketch, yawl, sloop, cutter, or cat. Traditional cats have full keels and lie quietly to their anchor, as do most if not all full keel sailboats. Modern sloops/cutters have shallow hulls and fin keels whose CLR is aft of the significant windage of the mast and its rigging, and they charge back and forth at anchor. Riding sails rigged from back stays and mizzen masts tame things considerably. Though a five gallon bucket would work marginally, an anchor or bucket full of sand/rocks or any other weight at the end of a rope just a bit longer than the depth of the water can be used effectively to quiet things as it drags along the bottom (not ecological). Two anchors in a V on out to 180* Bahamian Moor can also help but this reduces the effectiveness of each anchor for the same reasons that reaching up to pull the halyard out from the mast so as to be able to haul it a little tighter gives you extra leverage pulling the peak of the sail up (or anchor out when anchoring).
                            Eric

                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > >anchorage! . ---Mason
                            >
                            > Just curious, did you try anchoring with the dagger board down? How
                            > did that effect the stability at anchor? The physics of why boats
                            > swing around their anchor escapes my logic. I also wonder if dropping
                            > overboard a 5 gallon bucket on a rope might tame things.
                            >
                          • Adirondack Goodboat
                            No daggerboard on Birdwatcher and no experience anchoring Dovekie in a blow but I suspect the daggerboard would help some. We surely must have tried the
                            Message 13 of 24 , Sep 6, 2010
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                              No daggerboard on Birdwatcher and no experience anchoring Dovekie in a blow but I suspect the daggerboard would help some. We surely must have tried the centerboard down in anchoring the Birdwatchers without preventing the swinging. The bucket idea is similar to the idea of veering out a drogue astern and I think it would help or at least shorten the range of the swinging. I didn't have my Birdwatchers long enough to confront this problem and possibly solve it.
                               
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 7:10 PM
                              Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                               

                              >anchorage! . ---Mason

                              Just curious, did you try anchoring with the dagger board down? How
                              did that effect the stability at anchor? The physics of why boats
                              swing around their anchor escapes my logic. I also wonder if dropping
                              overboard a 5 gallon bucket on a rope might tame things.

                            • Adirondack Goodboat
                              Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the spirit of experiment. I wouldn t guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another
                              Message 14 of 24 , Sep 6, 2010
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                                Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the spirit of experiment. I wouldn't guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another argument in favor of stern anchoring. It is that you will probably be trimming the boat by the bow if you are aboard, especially two of you, and thus you might contribute to help the boat weathervane more steadily. Tidal current would reverse the effect, no? But we are not talking about tide. -- Mason
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Eric
                                Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 10:44 AM
                                Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                 

                                Then riding sail it is. A V of sail would be most effective with the ends of the V fastened to quarter cleats. If flown off a temporary back stay bow anchoring would be possible. I'd probably stern anchor and fly the V wrapped around the mast and ends to quarter cleats. Glad to hear you tried stern anchoring. I'm surprised it didn't tame things.
                                Eric

                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I believe we did try stern anchoring the Birdwatcher and the boat still swept huge arcs at high speed. It seemed to me that the hull becomes an airfoil, developing high pressure and low pressure sides, and flies until it can fly no more, on each tack.
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Eric
                                > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 6:04 PM
                                > Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring? Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable. Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be easy to switch to b ow anchor ing by attaching a line from the bow to the anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode. However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                                > Eric
                                >
                                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take dow n the s par with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell, alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                                > >
                                > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside, kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                                > >
                                > > ---Mason
                                > >
                                >

                              • Rob Kellock
                                Dunno about Birdwatcher, but I have tested my Michalak Philsboat (a smaller Birdwatcher cabin style sailboat with a transom stern) at anchor in various
                                Message 15 of 24 , Sep 7, 2010
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                                  Dunno about Birdwatcher, but I have tested my Michalak Philsboat (a smaller Birdwatcher cabin style sailboat with a transom stern) at anchor in various configurations. It charges at anchor from the bow and swings quite a bit less from the stern. However with the lugsail furled down into it's lazyjacks, both the leeboard and rudder raised (my feeling is that you don't want any underwater appendages impeding the hull aligning itself to the wind), and a jib pulled hard to the centre of the boat as a riding sail it hardly moves at all. I have a cleat on each quarter with a rope between and a bowline in the centre to which I attach the stern anchor.

                                  Despite all this, my preferred anchoring technique with these extreme shoal draft boats, if I am to sleep in them, is to anchor just off the shoreline in calf deep water with the bow to shore attached to a shoreline and the stern anchor in deeper water as it pounds much less than the bow.

                                  Cheers,

                                  Rob.

                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the spirit of experiment. I wouldn't guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another argument in favor of stern anchoring. It is that you will probably be trimming the boat by the bow if you are aboard, especially two of you, and thus you might contribute to help the boat weathervane more steadily. Tidal current would reverse the effect, no? But we are not talking about tide. -- Mason
                                • Chester Young
                                  To stop the charging at anchor of my Tennessee (EstherMae) I took a small sail and rigged it on the transom, in a fixed position. It all but eliminated the
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Sep 7, 2010
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                                    To stop the charging at anchor of my Tennessee (EstherMae) I took a small sail and rigged it on the transom, in a fixed position.  It all but eliminated the problem during the one use it had last year just before Thanksgiving.  Prior to that if the wind was blowing strong enough it would occasionally jerk hard enough to wake a person.  I would call it a major improvement with minor investment.

                                     

                                    Caloosarat

                                     

                                    From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kellock
                                    Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:31 AM
                                    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                     

                                     

                                    Dunno about Birdwatcher, but I have tested my Michalak Philsboat (a smaller Birdwatcher cabin style sailboat with a transom stern) at anchor in various configurations. It charges at anchor from the bow and swings quite a bit less from the stern. However with the lugsail furled down into it's lazyjacks, both the leeboard and rudder raised (my feeling is that you don't want any underwater appendages impeding the hull aligning itself to the wind), and a jib pulled hard to the centre of the boat as a riding sail it hardly moves at all. I have a cleat on each quarter with a rope between and a bowline in the centre to which I attach the stern anchor.

                                    Despite all this, my preferred anchoring technique with these extreme shoal draft boats, if I am to sleep in them, is to anchor just off the shoreline in calf deep water with the bow to shore attached to a shoreline and the stern anchor in deeper water as it pounds much less than the bow.

                                    Cheers,

                                    Rob.

                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:

                                    >
                                    > Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the
                                    spirit of experiment. I wouldn't guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another argument in favor of stern anchoring. It is that you will probably be trimming the boat by the bow if you are aboard, especially two of you, and thus you might contribute to help the boat weathervane more steadily. Tidal current would reverse the effect, no? But we are not talking about tide. -- Mason

                                  • Susanne@comcast.net
                                    On BIRDWATCHER, does the hunting occur with the board down? Perhaps I overlooked a corresponding note somewhere... Susanne Altenburger, PB&F ... From: Chester
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Sep 7, 2010
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                                      On BIRDWATCHER, does the hunting occur with the board down? Perhaps I overlooked a corresponding note somewhere...
                                      Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 1:04 PM
                                      Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                       

                                      To stop the charging at anchor of my Tennessee (EstherMae) I took a small sail and rigged it on the transom, in a fixed position.  It all but eliminated the problem during the one use it had last year just before Thanksgiving.  Prior to that if the wind was blowing strong enough it would occasionally jerk hard enough to wake a person.  I would call it a major improvement with minor investment.

                                      Caloosarat

                                      From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kellock
                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:31 AM
                                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                       

                                      Dunno about Birdwatcher, but I have tested my Michalak Philsboat (a smaller Birdwatcher cabin style sailboat with a transom stern) at anchor in various configurations. It charges at anchor from the bow and swings quite a bit less from the stern. However with the lugsail furled down into it's lazyjacks, both the leeboard and rudder raised (my feeling is that you don't want any underwater appendages impeding the hull aligning itself to the wind), and a jib pulled hard to the centre of the boat as a riding sail it hardly moves at all. I have a cleat on each quarter with a rope between and a bowline in the centre to which I attach the stern anchor.

                                      Despite all this, my preferred anchoring technique with these extreme shoal draft boats, if I am to sleep in them, is to anchor just off the shoreline in calf deep water with the bow to shore attached to a shoreline and the stern anchor in deeper water as it pounds much less than the bow.

                                      Cheers,

                                      Rob.

                                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the spirit of experiment. I wouldn't guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another argument in favor of stern anchoring. It is that you will probably be trimming the boat by the bow if you are aboard, especially two of you, and thus you might contribute to help the boat weathervane more steadily. Tidal current would reverse the effect, no? But we are not talking about tide. -- Mason

                                    • Susanne@comcast.net
                                      Yep I did miss an obvious line just a couple posts earlier... Sleeping aboard #639 JOCHEMS schooner anchored out I don t recall hunting. Perhaps I was too
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Sep 7, 2010
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                                        Yep I did miss an obvious line just a couple posts earlier...  Sleeping aboard #639 JOCHEMS schooner anchored out I don't recall hunting.  Perhaps I was too tired that night.  Can't recall many particulars but I believe the sails were furled.  The other nights we were beached somewhere...

                                        Is Bob Stover in Oregon part of the Group ?  His #639 should offer insights, such as leeboard position, mainsail up when anchored, etc.  Do schooner-rigs help ?

                                        Susanne Altenburger, PB&F  
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 8:52 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                         

                                        On BIRDWATCHER, does the hunting occur with the board down? Perhaps I overlooked a corresponding note somewhere...
                                        Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 1:04 PM
                                        Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                         

                                        To stop the charging at anchor of my Tennessee (EstherMae) I took a small sail and rigged it on the transom, in a fixed position.  It all but eliminated the problem during the one use it had last year just before Thanksgiving.  Prior to that if the wind was blowing strong enough it would occasionally jerk hard enough to wake a person.  I would call it a major improvement with minor investment.

                                        Caloosarat

                                        From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kellock
                                        Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:31 AM
                                        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                         

                                        Dunno about Birdwatcher, but I have tested my Michalak Philsboat (a smaller Birdwatcher cabin style sailboat with a transom stern) at anchor in various configurations. It charges at anchor from the bow and swings quite a bit less from the stern. However with the lugsail furled down into it's lazyjacks, both the leeboard and rudder raised (my feeling is that you don't want any underwater appendages impeding the hull aligning itself to the wind), and a jib pulled hard to the centre of the boat as a riding sail it hardly moves at all. I have a cleat on each quarter with a rope between and a bowline in the centre to which I attach the stern anchor.

                                        Despite all this, my preferred anchoring technique with these extreme shoal draft boats, if I am to sleep in them, is to anchor just off the shoreline in calf deep water with the bow to shore attached to a shoreline and the stern anchor in deeper water as it pounds much less than the bow.

                                        Cheers,

                                        Rob.

                                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the spirit of experiment. I wouldn't guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another argument in favor of stern anchoring. It is that you will probably be trimming the boat by the bow if you are aboard, especially two of you, and thus you might contribute to help the boat weathervane more steadily. Tidal current would reverse the effect, no? But we are not talking about tide. -- Mason

                                      • boblarkin02
                                        First, thanks Bruce for the isometrics. I always learn a lot from these. I have spent a bunch of nights at anchor with my BW-II, Wave Watcher. I have never
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Sep 7, 2010
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                                          First, thanks Bruce for the isometrics. I always learn a lot from these.

                                          I have spent a bunch of nights at anchor with my BW-II, Wave Watcher. I have never noticed it to sail around the anchor enough to be a problem. I always have the OCB down at least half way, as that allows full access to the stuff back behind. What I do notice, however is the ability of the long narrow sharpie hull to rotate beam to waves. Shelter from wakes is important at sleeping time.

                                          Also, on sails, I am still using the big Solent lug when I am not alone. If single handing, the small main is great, and if it is a cruise, I leave the big sail at home.

                                          I might add that my collection of sails for the BW-II (Solent main, small main, jib, and now maybe a mizzen) is the result of evolution, and if one has the luxury of planning things from the beginning, the sail choices would be different, most likely. For instance, if two of us go on a little cruise, we would like to take both mains. But this requires two booms and a yard, along with two mainsails. When you include all the personal items plus food, it makes a full boat! It would be nice to have all the flexibility, but only need one reefable mainsail and one boom.

                                          BTW, I am headed to the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival in a few hours where the BW-II will be exhibited in the water. I hope to meet a bunch of Bolger enthusiasts there. I will be back in a week and catch up on this thread.

                                          Bob Larkin
                                          Corvallis, OR
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