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Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

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  • prairiedog2332
    Mason, If you were to build another BW which rig would you mostly likely go with? Does the complications of the Solent rig off-set its light air advantages in
    Message 1 of 24 , Sep 3 8:11 AM
      Mason,

      If you were to build another BW which rig would you mostly likely go
      with? Does the complications of the Solent rig off-set its light air
      advantages in your view? I am assuming it has mostly to do with that
      fairly long yard, and keeping it aligned with the mast?

      Thanks, Nels


      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mason Smith" <masonsmith@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Bruce,

      >
      > I put such a jib, with roller furling, on my first (and the
      first-built) birdwatcher, and liked it a lot. My second BW had the
      Solent Lug rig and similar jib, as is seen in photos on the group. That
      rig was fast and lots of fun but the Solent Lug complicated life aboard
      quite a lot. Easier to step mast, easier to get all down, and so,
      overall, I think a safer rig as well as more powerful; but more work
      too.
    • mason smith
      Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I d probably go for it. I solved the
      Message 2 of 24 , Sep 3 10:15 AM
        Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell, alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
         
        I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside, kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
         
        ---Mason
      • prairiedog2332
        Mason, Not sure it you have seen this article written by Bob Larkin regarding his Birdwatcher2? http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_sails2.htm This Birdwatcher
        Message 3 of 24 , Sep 3 1:11 PM
          Mason,

          Not sure it you have seen this article written by Bob Larkin regarding
          his Birdwatcher2?

          http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_sails2.htm

          This Birdwatcher has even more sail area than the original solent
          option, something like 144 sq. ft. main (same as original solent main
          but 71 sq. ft. jib. (vs: 41 on the original) To compensate it has a
          about 160 lb. centerboard.

          Reading his article it occurs to me the smaller original jib may have
          worked better! On the other hand it passes everything in sight at the
          messabouts.

          He ended up making a smaller main and leaving the yard at home when
          going out solo, but then this leads to lee helm with that big jib. His
          new main is only 85 sq. ft. which is considerably smaller than the
          original leg o' mutton at 125 sq. ft.

          He also mentions adding a small mizzen to help keep head up to the wind
          when reefing. Or maybe just dropping the main and sailing under jib and
          mizzen. I don't quite see where there is space in the stern for a
          mizzen.

          So this all has me scratching my head. Maybe having the solent rig that
          comes with the original plans and using it when having crew available
          and then a smaller leg o' mutton (with the shorter mast) and the option
          of the little jib when going out solo. Add Bob's idea for converting it
          to a sliding gunter?

          I have the original plans which could be modified slightly adding a
          weighted centerboard maybe or a doubled bottom and the anti-slap pad.
          Would you keep the original steering set-up? And what do you think of
          building with 3/8" MDO rather than 1/4" standard plywood?

          Nels



          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
          >
          > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use
          the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I
          solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
          downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did
          that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
          were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing
          to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on
          deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as
          compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping
          the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a
          nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
          times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the
          thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
          windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
          spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where
          as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could
          pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No
          Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
          rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
          problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep
          the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell,
          alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
          >
          > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
          biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit
          when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
          with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I
          could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside,
          kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
          >
          > ---Mason
          >
        • Adirondack Goodboat
          Nels, I hadn t read Bob Larkin s account of sailing the Birdwatcher 2 with his various sails and combinations. He certainly is a great observer and fixer and
          Message 4 of 24 , Sep 4 9:29 AM
            Nels, I hadn't read Bob Larkin's account of sailing the Birdwatcher 2 with his various sails and combinations. He certainly is a great observer and fixer and experimenter, an asset to all who build the design. Everything he says makes good sense to me. I think my experience of bringing down the Solent lug was better, maybe because I never had particularly hard conditions. It comes down, is the main thing, and fast if you let it. I think I developed a practice whereby I kept downward tension on the luff while letting the halyard slip through the other hand, so as to keep the yard under control. I do that when lowering the standing lug on my Goodboats. It seemed important, if I remember rightly, to be able to let the foot of the yard go forward as it comes down. Except for that, and if it is satisfactory in passing by the snotter block, I guess I can see the contraption at the foot of the yard, turning the rig into a gunther. I tried a sort of parrel which I attached once the foot of the yard was high enough, and the first owner/builder had a shock cord arrangement along the mast to tame the heel of the yard, but in the end I decided to let the solent be the solent.
             
            I think the best of all these solutions for the Birdwatcher for most of us would be the original leg o' mutton sail, with its luff on a track, and the small jib tacked on deck.
             
            I too always thought of a mizzen, if only for a steadying sail. I tried a drogue from the bow, but the darn boat sailed around that as badly as around an anchor. So perhaps a short spar with a patch of canvas furled on it, a sprit boom, and two sheets, with a step and partner as far forward as possible, just to clear the main spritboom? But again, too complicated.
             
            Birdwatcher 1, motor mount sticking through the side, jib, steering as designed, motor seldom used, oars for all close maneuvers.  That would be my formula.  ---Mason
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 4:11 PM
            Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

             

            Mason,

            Not sure it you have seen this article written by Bob Larkin regarding
            his Birdwatcher2?

            http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_sails2.htm

            This Birdwatcher has even more sail area than the original solent
            option, something like 144 sq. ft. main (same as original solent main
            but 71 sq. ft. jib. (vs: 41 on the original) To compensate it has a
            about 160 lb. centerboard.

            Reading his article it occurs to me the smaller original jib may have
            worked better! On the other hand it passes everything in sight at the
            messabouts.

            He ended up making a smaller main and leaving the yard at home when
            going out solo, but then this leads to lee helm with that big jib. His
            new main is only 85 sq. ft. which is considerably smaller than the
            original leg o' mutton at 125 sq. ft.

            He also mentions adding a small mizzen to help keep head up to the wind
            when reefing. Or maybe just dropping the main and sailing under jib and
            mizzen. I don't quite see where there is space in the stern for a
            mizzen.

            So this all has me scratching my head. Maybe having the solent rig that
            comes with the original plans and using it when having crew available
            and then a smaller leg o' mutton (with the shorter mast) and the option
            of the little jib when going out solo. Add Bob's idea for converting it
            to a sliding gunter?

            I have the original plans which could be modified slightly adding a
            weighted centerboard maybe or a doubled bottom and the anti-slap pad.
            Would you keep the original steering set-up? And what do you think of
            building with 3/8" MDO rather than 1/4" standard plywood?

            Nels

            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
            >
            > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use
            the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I
            solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
            downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did
            that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
            were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing
            to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on
            deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as
            compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping
            the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a
            nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
            times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the
            thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
            windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
            spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where
            as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could
            pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No
            Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
            rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
            problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep
            the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell,
            alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
            >
            > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
            biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit
            when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
            with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I
            could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside,
            kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
            >
            > ---Mason
            >

          • Eric
            If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring? Whatever driving sails are
            Message 5 of 24 , Sep 4 3:04 PM
              If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring? Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable. Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be easy to switch to bow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode. However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
              Eric


              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
              >
              > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell, alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
              >
              > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside, kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
              >
              > ---Mason
              >
            • prairiedog2332
              Mason, Definitely a track on the main would help I would think. Too bad one could not install a track on the yard. Can t help thinking maybe a bit smaller
              Message 6 of 24 , Sep 4 5:40 PM
                Mason,

                Definitely a track on the main would help I would think. Too bad one
                could not install a track on the yard. Can't help thinking maybe a bit
                smaller sail with no battens and a lighter yard as well. Maybe carbon
                fiber or an old windsurfer mast?

                Maybe if going out solo just reef the solent rig before heading out?
                Probably a second shorter sprit boom so the forward end doesn't hang up
                on the jib when tacking? Sure, it doesn't look as "neat" at the foot
                but that area of the sail is not in much wind anyway. Is it easier to
                shake out a reef than tie one in, in case the wind goes light and looks
                like it will stay that way?

                Looks like this would bring the top of the yard down to about the height
                of the original mast and bottom of it down to a reachable height if you
                want to drop it into the slot.

                http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/Image1.jpg

                Do you think a 3.5 would work on a bracket? I have a line on a 3.5
                2-stroke Tohatsu. (with reverse)

                Nels


                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Nels, I hadn't read Bob Larkin's account of sailing the Birdwatcher 2
                with his various sails and combinations. He certainly is a great
                observer and fixer and experimenter, an asset to all who build the
                design. Everything he says makes good sense to me. I think my experience
                of bringing down the Solent lug was better, maybe because I never had
                particularly hard conditions. It comes down, is the main thing, and fast
                if you let it. I think I developed a practice whereby I kept downward
                tension on the luff while letting the halyard slip through the other
                hand, so as to keep the yard under control. I do that when lowering the
                standing lug on my Goodboats. It seemed important, if I remember
                rightly, to be able to let the foot of the yard go forward as it comes
                down. Except for that, and if it is satisfactory in passing by the
                snotter block, I guess I can see the contraption at the foot of the
                yard, turning the rig into a gunther. I tried a sort of parrel which I
                attached once the foot of the yard was high enough, and the first
                owner/builder had a shock cord arrangement along the mast to tame the
                heel of the yard, but in the end I decided to let the solent be the
                solent.
                >
                > I think the best of all these solutions for the Birdwatcher for most
                of us would be the original leg o' mutton sail, with its luff on a
                track, and the small jib tacked on deck.
                >
                > I too always thought of a mizzen, if only for a steadying sail. I
                tried a drogue from the bow, but the darn boat sailed around that as
                badly as around an anchor. So perhaps a short spar with a patch of
                canvas furled on it, a sprit boom, and two sheets, with a step and
                partner as far forward as possible, just to clear the main spritboom?
                But again, too complicated.
                >
                > Birdwatcher 1, motor mount sticking through the side, jib, steering as
                designed, motor seldom used, oars for all close maneuvers. That would
                be my formula. ---Mason
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: prairiedog2332
                > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 4:11 PM
                > Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher
                >
                >
                >
                > Mason,
                >
                > Not sure it you have seen this article written by Bob Larkin
                regarding
                > his Birdwatcher2?
                >
                > http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_sails2.htm
                >
                > This Birdwatcher has even more sail area than the original solent
                > option, something like 144 sq. ft. main (same as original solent
                main
                > but 71 sq. ft. jib. (vs: 41 on the original) To compensate it has a
                > about 160 lb. centerboard.
                >
                > Reading his article it occurs to me the smaller original jib may
                have
                > worked better! On the other hand it passes everything in sight at
                the
                > messabouts.
                >
                > He ended up making a smaller main and leaving the yard at home when
                > going out solo, but then this leads to lee helm with that big jib.
                His
                > new main is only 85 sq. ft. which is considerably smaller than the
                > original leg o' mutton at 125 sq. ft.
                >
                > He also mentions adding a small mizzen to help keep head up to the
                wind
                > when reefing. Or maybe just dropping the main and sailing under jib
                and
                > mizzen. I don't quite see where there is space in the stern for a
                > mizzen.
                >
                > So this all has me scratching my head. Maybe having the solent rig
                that
                > comes with the original plans and using it when having crew
                available
                > and then a smaller leg o' mutton (with the shorter mast) and the
                option
                > of the little jib when going out solo. Add Bob's idea for converting
                it
                > to a sliding gunter?
                >
                > I have the original plans which could be modified slightly adding a
                > weighted centerboard maybe or a doubled bottom and the anti-slap
                pad.
                > Would you keep the original steering set-up? And what do you think
                of
                > building with 3/8" MDO rather than 1/4" standard plywood?
                >
                > Nels
                >
                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" goodboat@ wrote:
                > >
                > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to
                use
                > the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it.
                I
                > solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
                > downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I
                did
                > that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
                > were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner
                bracing
                > to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters
                on
                > deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But
                as
                > compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech,
                dropping
                > the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order
                was a
                > nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
                > times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want
                the
                > thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
                > windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
                > spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar
                where
                > as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it
                could
                > pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at
                the No
                > Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
                > rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
                > problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not,
                keep
                > the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor,
                lickety-hell,
                > alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                > >
                > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
                > biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the
                cabin/cockpit
                > when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
                > with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled
                what I
                > could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang
                inside,
                > kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                > >
                > > ---Mason
                > >
                >
              • prairiedog2332
                Sounds to me like a very good thought. Where I am located there is a lot of sand beaches. No tides. So had thought to just haul up a bit on the beach in a
                Message 7 of 24 , Sep 4 5:47 PM
                  Sounds to me like a very good thought.

                  Where I am located there is a lot of sand beaches. No tides. So had
                  thought to just haul up a bit on the beach in a sheltered spot and tie
                  to a tree. Drop an anchor off the stern.

                  What are your thoughts on a small flat storm jib sheeted in, if
                  anchoring off the stern?

                  Nels


                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and
                  construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring?
                  Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there
                  any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is
                  the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose
                  of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable.
                  Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow
                  anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from
                  the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be
                  desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over
                  cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the
                  wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a
                  quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it
                  is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be
                  easy to switch to bow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the
                  anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode.
                  However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and
                  raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem
                  what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with
                  which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                  > Eric
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" goodboat@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to
                  use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it.
                  I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
                  downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did
                  that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
                  were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing
                  to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on
                  deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as
                  compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping
                  the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a
                  nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
                  times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the
                  thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
                  windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
                  spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where
                  as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could
                  pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No
                  Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
                  rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
                  problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep
                  the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell,
                  alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                  > >
                  > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
                  biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit
                  when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
                  with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I
                  could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside,
                  kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                  > >
                  > > ---Mason
                  > >
                  >
                • Eric
                  I would expect the windage and location of the mast on Birdwatcher are sufficient to cause Birdwatcher to lie happily to its anchor if anchored from the stern
                  Message 8 of 24 , Sep 4 9:17 PM
                    I would expect the windage and location of the mast on Birdwatcher are sufficient to cause Birdwatcher to lie happily to its anchor if anchored from the stern rather than the bow. I like the uncomplicated elegance of function of Birdwatcher and think another boat should be chosen before adding complication. Hopefully even a little chunk of extra sail and its extra lines would not be needed.

                    I just realized Whalewatcher is yawl rigged and the mizzen might as well be built as an effective riding sail so Whalewatcher will lie happily to a bow anchor.
                    Eric

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Sounds to me like a very good thought.
                    >
                    > Where I am located there is a lot of sand beaches. No tides. So had
                    > thought to just haul up a bit on the beach in a sheltered spot and tie
                    > to a tree. Drop an anchor off the stern.
                    >
                    > What are your thoughts on a small flat storm jib sheeted in, if
                    > anchoring off the stern?
                    >
                    > Nels
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and
                    > construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring?
                    > Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there
                    > any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is
                    > the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose
                    > of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable.
                    > Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow
                    > anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from
                    > the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be
                    > desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over
                    > cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the
                    > wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a
                    > quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it
                    > is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be
                    > easy to switch to bow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the
                    > anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode.
                    > However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and
                    > raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem
                    > what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with
                    > which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                    > > Eric
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" goodboat@ wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to
                    > use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it.
                    > I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
                    > downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did
                    > that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
                    > were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing
                    > to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on
                    > deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as
                    > compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping
                    > the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a
                    > nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
                    > times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the
                    > thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
                    > windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
                    > spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where
                    > as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could
                    > pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No
                    > Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
                    > rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
                    > problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep
                    > the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell,
                    > alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                    > > >
                    > > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
                    > biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit
                    > when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
                    > with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I
                    > could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside,
                    > kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                    > > >
                    > > > ---Mason
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Adirondack Goodboat
                    I believe we did try stern anchoring the Birdwatcher and the boat still swept huge arcs at high speed. It seemed to me that the hull becomes an airfoil,
                    Message 9 of 24 , Sep 5 7:07 AM
                      I believe we did try stern anchoring the Birdwatcher and the boat still swept huge arcs at high speed. It seemed to me that the hull becomes an airfoil, developing high pressure and low pressure sides, and flies until it can fly no more, on each tack.
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Eric
                      Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 6:04 PM
                      Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                       

                      If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring? Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable. Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be easy to switch to b ow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode. However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                      Eric

                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the s par with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell, alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                      >
                      > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside, kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                      >
                      > ---Mason
                      >

                    • Eric
                      Then riding sail it is. A V of sail would be most effective with the ends of the V fastened to quarter cleats. If flown off a temporary back stay bow
                      Message 10 of 24 , Sep 5 7:44 AM
                        Then riding sail it is. A V of sail would be most effective with the ends of the V fastened to quarter cleats. If flown off a temporary back stay bow anchoring would be possible. I'd probably stern anchor and fly the V wrapped around the mast and ends to quarter cleats. Glad to hear you tried stern anchoring. I'm surprised it didn't tame things.
                        Eric

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I believe we did try stern anchoring the Birdwatcher and the boat still swept huge arcs at high speed. It seemed to me that the hull becomes an airfoil, developing high pressure and low pressure sides, and flies until it can fly no more, on each tack.
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Eric
                        > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 6:04 PM
                        > Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring? Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable. Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be easy to switch to b ow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode. However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                        > Eric
                        >
                        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the s par with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell, alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                        > >
                        > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside, kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                        > >
                        > > ---Mason
                        > >
                        >
                      • Adirondack Goodboat
                        Rick suggests beaching and really that s the answer where possible. I think where Phil envisioned this boat being used most, like the Dovekie, salt marshes and
                        Message 11 of 24 , Sep 5 7:52 AM
                          Rick suggests beaching and really that's the answer where possible. I think where Phil envisioned this boat being used most, like the Dovekie, salt marshes and tidal estuaries, you'd seldom anchor in the open, very often put out a stern anchor and run the boat on the beach or just anchor in shallow, sheltered places, very close in to shore. I'm thinking of one beautiful full moon night on the Crooked River, in Georgia, just inside Cumberland Island. Such a lovely anchorage! But with the full moon and a nice breeze I couldn't pass up sailing for an hour in the middle of the night. Kept running the bow into the grasses in the shadows and having to pole back out into the stream. I don't know if Dovekie would sail around her anchor or not and don't care. ---Mason
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 8:47 PM
                          Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                           

                          Sounds to me like a very good thought.

                          Where I am located there is a lot of sand beaches. No tides. So had
                          thought to just haul up a bit on the beach in a sheltered spot and tie
                          to a tree. Drop an anchor off the stern.

                          What are your thoughts on a small flat storm jib sheeted in, if
                          anchoring off the stern?

                          Nels

                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and
                          construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring?
                          Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there
                          any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is
                          the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose
                          of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable.
                          Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow
                          anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from
                          the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be
                          desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over
                          cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the
                          wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a
                          quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it
                          is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be
                          easy to switch to bow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the
                          anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode.
                          However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and
                          raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem
                          what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with
                          which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                          > Eric
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" goodboat@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to
                          use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it.
                          I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
                          downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did
                          that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
                          were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing
                          to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on
                          deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as
                          compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping
                          the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a
                          nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
                          times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the
                          thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
                          windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
                          spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where
                          as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could
                          pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No
                          Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
                          rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
                          problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep
                          the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell,
                          alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                          > >
                          > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
                          biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit
                          when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
                          with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I
                          could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside,
                          kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                          > >
                          > > ---Mason
                          > >
                          >

                        • Bruce Hallman
                          ... Just curious, did you try anchoring with the dagger board down? How did that effect the stability at anchor? The physics of why boats swing around their
                          Message 12 of 24 , Sep 5 4:10 PM
                            >anchorage! . ---Mason

                            Just curious, did you try anchoring with the dagger board down? How
                            did that effect the stability at anchor? The physics of why boats
                            swing around their anchor escapes my logic. I also wonder if dropping
                            overboard a 5 gallon bucket on a rope might tame things.
                          • Eric
                            No expertise but will begin the discussion of why boats swing at anchor: Hull shape: Sailboats are designed so that almost any force applied to the hull will
                            Message 13 of 24 , Sep 5 6:16 PM
                              No expertise but will begin the discussion of why boats swing at anchor: Hull shape: Sailboats are designed so that almost any force applied to the hull will cause it to move forward. Windage and CLR (Center of Lateral Resistance). On the same hull a schooner will lie quieter to its anchor than a ketch, yawl, sloop, cutter, or cat. Traditional cats have full keels and lie quietly to their anchor, as do most if not all full keel sailboats. Modern sloops/cutters have shallow hulls and fin keels whose CLR is aft of the significant windage of the mast and its rigging, and they charge back and forth at anchor. Riding sails rigged from back stays and mizzen masts tame things considerably. Though a five gallon bucket would work marginally, an anchor or bucket full of sand/rocks or any other weight at the end of a rope just a bit longer than the depth of the water can be used effectively to quiet things as it drags along the bottom (not ecological). Two anchors in a V on out to 180* Bahamian Moor can also help but this reduces the effectiveness of each anchor for the same reasons that reaching up to pull the halyard out from the mast so as to be able to haul it a little tighter gives you extra leverage pulling the peak of the sail up (or anchor out when anchoring).
                              Eric

                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > >anchorage! . ---Mason
                              >
                              > Just curious, did you try anchoring with the dagger board down? How
                              > did that effect the stability at anchor? The physics of why boats
                              > swing around their anchor escapes my logic. I also wonder if dropping
                              > overboard a 5 gallon bucket on a rope might tame things.
                              >
                            • Adirondack Goodboat
                              No daggerboard on Birdwatcher and no experience anchoring Dovekie in a blow but I suspect the daggerboard would help some. We surely must have tried the
                              Message 14 of 24 , Sep 6 1:24 PM
                                No daggerboard on Birdwatcher and no experience anchoring Dovekie in a blow but I suspect the daggerboard would help some. We surely must have tried the centerboard down in anchoring the Birdwatchers without preventing the swinging. The bucket idea is similar to the idea of veering out a drogue astern and I think it would help or at least shorten the range of the swinging. I didn't have my Birdwatchers long enough to confront this problem and possibly solve it.
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 7:10 PM
                                Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                 

                                >anchorage! . ---Mason

                                Just curious, did you try anchoring with the dagger board down? How
                                did that effect the stability at anchor? The physics of why boats
                                swing around their anchor escapes my logic. I also wonder if dropping
                                overboard a 5 gallon bucket on a rope might tame things.

                              • Adirondack Goodboat
                                Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the spirit of experiment. I wouldn t guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another
                                Message 15 of 24 , Sep 6 1:37 PM
                                  Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the spirit of experiment. I wouldn't guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another argument in favor of stern anchoring. It is that you will probably be trimming the boat by the bow if you are aboard, especially two of you, and thus you might contribute to help the boat weathervane more steadily. Tidal current would reverse the effect, no? But we are not talking about tide. -- Mason
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Eric
                                  Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 10:44 AM
                                  Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                   

                                  Then riding sail it is. A V of sail would be most effective with the ends of the V fastened to quarter cleats. If flown off a temporary back stay bow anchoring would be possible. I'd probably stern anchor and fly the V wrapped around the mast and ends to quarter cleats. Glad to hear you tried stern anchoring. I'm surprised it didn't tame things.
                                  Eric

                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I believe we did try stern anchoring the Birdwatcher and the boat still swept huge arcs at high speed. It seemed to me that the hull becomes an airfoil, developing high pressure and low pressure sides, and flies until it can fly no more, on each tack.
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Eric
                                  > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 6:04 PM
                                  > Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring? Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable. Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be easy to switch to b ow anchor ing by attaching a line from the bow to the anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode. However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                                  > Eric
                                  >
                                  > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take dow n the s par with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell, alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                                  > >
                                  > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside, kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                                  > >
                                  > > ---Mason
                                  > >
                                  >

                                • Rob Kellock
                                  Dunno about Birdwatcher, but I have tested my Michalak Philsboat (a smaller Birdwatcher cabin style sailboat with a transom stern) at anchor in various
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Sep 7 1:19 AM
                                    Dunno about Birdwatcher, but I have tested my Michalak Philsboat (a smaller Birdwatcher cabin style sailboat with a transom stern) at anchor in various configurations. It charges at anchor from the bow and swings quite a bit less from the stern. However with the lugsail furled down into it's lazyjacks, both the leeboard and rudder raised (my feeling is that you don't want any underwater appendages impeding the hull aligning itself to the wind), and a jib pulled hard to the centre of the boat as a riding sail it hardly moves at all. I have a cleat on each quarter with a rope between and a bowline in the centre to which I attach the stern anchor.

                                    Despite all this, my preferred anchoring technique with these extreme shoal draft boats, if I am to sleep in them, is to anchor just off the shoreline in calf deep water with the bow to shore attached to a shoreline and the stern anchor in deeper water as it pounds much less than the bow.

                                    Cheers,

                                    Rob.

                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the spirit of experiment. I wouldn't guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another argument in favor of stern anchoring. It is that you will probably be trimming the boat by the bow if you are aboard, especially two of you, and thus you might contribute to help the boat weathervane more steadily. Tidal current would reverse the effect, no? But we are not talking about tide. -- Mason
                                  • Chester Young
                                    To stop the charging at anchor of my Tennessee (EstherMae) I took a small sail and rigged it on the transom, in a fixed position. It all but eliminated the
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Sep 7 10:04 AM

                                      To stop the charging at anchor of my Tennessee (EstherMae) I took a small sail and rigged it on the transom, in a fixed position.  It all but eliminated the problem during the one use it had last year just before Thanksgiving.  Prior to that if the wind was blowing strong enough it would occasionally jerk hard enough to wake a person.  I would call it a major improvement with minor investment.

                                       

                                      Caloosarat

                                       

                                      From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kellock
                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:31 AM
                                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                       

                                       

                                      Dunno about Birdwatcher, but I have tested my Michalak Philsboat (a smaller Birdwatcher cabin style sailboat with a transom stern) at anchor in various configurations. It charges at anchor from the bow and swings quite a bit less from the stern. However with the lugsail furled down into it's lazyjacks, both the leeboard and rudder raised (my feeling is that you don't want any underwater appendages impeding the hull aligning itself to the wind), and a jib pulled hard to the centre of the boat as a riding sail it hardly moves at all. I have a cleat on each quarter with a rope between and a bowline in the centre to which I attach the stern anchor.

                                      Despite all this, my preferred anchoring technique with these extreme shoal draft boats, if I am to sleep in them, is to anchor just off the shoreline in calf deep water with the bow to shore attached to a shoreline and the stern anchor in deeper water as it pounds much less than the bow.

                                      Cheers,

                                      Rob.

                                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:

                                      >
                                      > Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the
                                      spirit of experiment. I wouldn't guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another argument in favor of stern anchoring. It is that you will probably be trimming the boat by the bow if you are aboard, especially two of you, and thus you might contribute to help the boat weathervane more steadily. Tidal current would reverse the effect, no? But we are not talking about tide. -- Mason

                                    • Susanne@comcast.net
                                      On BIRDWATCHER, does the hunting occur with the board down? Perhaps I overlooked a corresponding note somewhere... Susanne Altenburger, PB&F ... From: Chester
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Sep 7 5:52 PM
                                        On BIRDWATCHER, does the hunting occur with the board down? Perhaps I overlooked a corresponding note somewhere...
                                        Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 1:04 PM
                                        Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                         

                                        To stop the charging at anchor of my Tennessee (EstherMae) I took a small sail and rigged it on the transom, in a fixed position.  It all but eliminated the problem during the one use it had last year just before Thanksgiving.  Prior to that if the wind was blowing strong enough it would occasionally jerk hard enough to wake a person.  I would call it a major improvement with minor investment.

                                        Caloosarat

                                        From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kellock
                                        Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:31 AM
                                        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                         

                                        Dunno about Birdwatcher, but I have tested my Michalak Philsboat (a smaller Birdwatcher cabin style sailboat with a transom stern) at anchor in various configurations. It charges at anchor from the bow and swings quite a bit less from the stern. However with the lugsail furled down into it's lazyjacks, both the leeboard and rudder raised (my feeling is that you don't want any underwater appendages impeding the hull aligning itself to the wind), and a jib pulled hard to the centre of the boat as a riding sail it hardly moves at all. I have a cleat on each quarter with a rope between and a bowline in the centre to which I attach the stern anchor.

                                        Despite all this, my preferred anchoring technique with these extreme shoal draft boats, if I am to sleep in them, is to anchor just off the shoreline in calf deep water with the bow to shore attached to a shoreline and the stern anchor in deeper water as it pounds much less than the bow.

                                        Cheers,

                                        Rob.

                                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the spirit of experiment. I wouldn't guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another argument in favor of stern anchoring. It is that you will probably be trimming the boat by the bow if you are aboard, especially two of you, and thus you might contribute to help the boat weathervane more steadily. Tidal current would reverse the effect, no? But we are not talking about tide. -- Mason

                                      • Susanne@comcast.net
                                        Yep I did miss an obvious line just a couple posts earlier... Sleeping aboard #639 JOCHEMS schooner anchored out I don t recall hunting. Perhaps I was too
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Sep 7 6:06 PM
                                          Yep I did miss an obvious line just a couple posts earlier...  Sleeping aboard #639 JOCHEMS schooner anchored out I don't recall hunting.  Perhaps I was too tired that night.  Can't recall many particulars but I believe the sails were furled.  The other nights we were beached somewhere...

                                          Is Bob Stover in Oregon part of the Group ?  His #639 should offer insights, such as leeboard position, mainsail up when anchored, etc.  Do schooner-rigs help ?

                                          Susanne Altenburger, PB&F  
                                           
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 8:52 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                           

                                          On BIRDWATCHER, does the hunting occur with the board down? Perhaps I overlooked a corresponding note somewhere...
                                          Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 1:04 PM
                                          Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                           

                                          To stop the charging at anchor of my Tennessee (EstherMae) I took a small sail and rigged it on the transom, in a fixed position.  It all but eliminated the problem during the one use it had last year just before Thanksgiving.  Prior to that if the wind was blowing strong enough it would occasionally jerk hard enough to wake a person.  I would call it a major improvement with minor investment.

                                          Caloosarat

                                          From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kellock
                                          Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:31 AM
                                          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                           

                                          Dunno about Birdwatcher, but I have tested my Michalak Philsboat (a smaller Birdwatcher cabin style sailboat with a transom stern) at anchor in various configurations. It charges at anchor from the bow and swings quite a bit less from the stern. However with the lugsail furled down into it's lazyjacks, both the leeboard and rudder raised (my feeling is that you don't want any underwater appendages impeding the hull aligning itself to the wind), and a jib pulled hard to the centre of the boat as a riding sail it hardly moves at all. I have a cleat on each quarter with a rope between and a bowline in the centre to which I attach the stern anchor.

                                          Despite all this, my preferred anchoring technique with these extreme shoal draft boats, if I am to sleep in them, is to anchor just off the shoreline in calf deep water with the bow to shore attached to a shoreline and the stern anchor in deeper water as it pounds much less than the bow.

                                          Cheers,

                                          Rob.

                                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the spirit of experiment. I wouldn't guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another argument in favor of stern anchoring. It is that you will probably be trimming the boat by the bow if you are aboard, especially two of you, and thus you might contribute to help the boat weathervane more steadily. Tidal current would reverse the effect, no? But we are not talking about tide. -- Mason

                                        • boblarkin02
                                          First, thanks Bruce for the isometrics. I always learn a lot from these. I have spent a bunch of nights at anchor with my BW-II, Wave Watcher. I have never
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Sep 7 8:53 PM
                                            First, thanks Bruce for the isometrics. I always learn a lot from these.

                                            I have spent a bunch of nights at anchor with my BW-II, Wave Watcher. I have never noticed it to sail around the anchor enough to be a problem. I always have the OCB down at least half way, as that allows full access to the stuff back behind. What I do notice, however is the ability of the long narrow sharpie hull to rotate beam to waves. Shelter from wakes is important at sleeping time.

                                            Also, on sails, I am still using the big Solent lug when I am not alone. If single handing, the small main is great, and if it is a cruise, I leave the big sail at home.

                                            I might add that my collection of sails for the BW-II (Solent main, small main, jib, and now maybe a mizzen) is the result of evolution, and if one has the luxury of planning things from the beginning, the sail choices would be different, most likely. For instance, if two of us go on a little cruise, we would like to take both mains. But this requires two booms and a yard, along with two mainsails. When you include all the personal items plus food, it makes a full boat! It would be nice to have all the flexibility, but only need one reefable mainsail and one boom.

                                            BTW, I am headed to the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival in a few hours where the BW-II will be exhibited in the water. I hope to meet a bunch of Bolger enthusiasts there. I will be back in a week and catch up on this thread.

                                            Bob Larkin
                                            Corvallis, OR
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